Hi.

I personally believe Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same trumpet as 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the same coming of Jesus and gathering together of the saints that Paul refers to in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; same coming, same gathering together, same trumpet, same clouds, and it says it will be after the tribulation. I don't believe the scriptures teach a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.

May the Lord bless you.

http://www.geocities.com/postrib/

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2001

Answers

Okay. Since you believe it, I'm convinced. (That is said in jest).

Outside of just wanting it to be so, why do you believe what you do? You dont believe in a 2nd rapture. I'll do you one better. I dont believe in a first one. The term and concept of a secret rapture cannot be found in the NT without using some imagination. And, it is those who claim a rapture that have Jesus coming back 2 and one half times.

When Jesus returns - that's all folks!

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2001

Also, thank you for the blessing. My God blesses me each and every day. I wish the same for you.

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2001

People who believe in 'the rapture' are a bit shocked when they hear others say they don't believe in 'the rapture.'

The term 'the rapture' refers to that verse in the letter to the Thesalonians which says that we which are alive and remain will be _caught up_ to meet the Lord in the air. 'Rapture' means 'caught up' and if I remember correctly, the term comes from the Latin translation of 'caught up' in this particular passage.

So if you believe that the saints will be caught up into the air at the coming of the Lord, you believe in the rapture, though you might not like the term 'rapture.' If you say you don't believe in the rapture, those who do may think you are one of those expreme preterists who do not truly believe in the resurrection, and who think the passages which relate to it are allegorical. I just read a message a few days ago from someone who expressed alarm that there are a number of people these days saying that they don't believe in the rapture _at all._ "I think what we have hear is a failure to comunicate." 'Rapture' is not a dirty word.

Do you mean that you don't believe in the 'secret rapture?'

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2001

Topical Article

by Charles Cooper

The Greek language is generally conceded to be the most effective vehicle ever developed for expressing thought. Its possibilities of subtle distinction in the expression of thought are vast, and the writers of the New Testament were remarkably adept at using the finer capacities of the language." (1) This among other reasons explains why God chose to record the New Testament in Koine (common) Greek. However, with the split of the church between the Greek speaking people of the East and the Latin speaking people of the West, the need for an authorized Latin translation of the Bible in the West became imperative. In A.D. 383, Pope Damasus commissioned a young scholar to translate the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament and the Greek translation of the Old Testament (Septuagint) into Latin. This monumental work would eventually acquire the name Vulgate which means current. (2) The importance of the Latin Vulgate is very significant.

(I)t was for hundreds of years the only Bible in universal use in Europe. . . (I)t has given to us much of our modern theological terminology as well as being the sponsor for many Gr[eek] words which have enriched our conceptions. (3)

Two very important examples of "modern theological terminology" that tie directly to the Latin Vulgate are the terms rapture and advent. The English term rapture comes from the Latin word rapere which means "to seize." The translator of the Latin Vulgate chose this term to translate the Greek verb harpazo (to catch away) in I Thessalonians 4:17. The term advent comes from the Latin word adventus which means "arrival." The Latin Vulgate uses this term to translate the Greek term parousia. Therefore, when we use rapture and advent to refer to the Lord Jesus' return, we are using loaned words from Latin.

The Problem Stated

Rapture and second advent are key phrases used to describe events associated with the next major phase in the earthly career of Jesus Christ. One of two problems with these phrases is the seemingly forgotten fact that none of them actually appear in the Greek New Testament. While these terms were adequate for a Latin translation 1500 years ago, they are not adequate for an English translation today. No modern English translation of the Bible utilizes these terms. The second problem with these phrases is the lack of biblical preciseness. This lack of biblical preciseness has contributed greatly to the confusion regarding the timing of Christ's coming and the events that will occur in conjunction with that coming. Well meaning men and women are mislead into thinking that the "rapture" of the church and the second "advent" of Christ are two different and unrelated events, the rapture occurring years before the advent of Christ at the battle of Armageddon. For example, they would say that the parousia found in I Thessalonians 4:15 is the rapture parousia and the parousia referred to in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:3), the Armageddon parousia.

However, it is the thesis of this article that the parousia (coming) is a biblically precise (technical) term that in each and every usage concerning Christ's return, is referring to a general time span that is initiated by the rapture of the church, through to and including the final event of Christ's coming, the battle of Armageddon.

Technical Verses Non-Technical Usage

The first matter we must deal with concerns the question of whether or not parousia is a technical term that covers the future ministry of Christ. Specifically, we are talking about the timeframe that is initiated when He returns to receive the church to Himself, to the time He comes with His armies for the battle of Armageddon. A technical term is a designation given to a word or phrase in light of the fact that a certain meaning is conveyed each and every time it is used. An example of a technical term in Paul's writings is Kalein (to call). It is a technical term "that carries the content 'God designates as (or causes to be) a Christian.' It is God's action of bestowing upon a person eternal salvation." (4) Therefore, Paul argues that salvation by grace through faith is a gift of God. Each time Paul uses this term he means the exact same thing. Can a case be made for parousia as a technical term in the New Testament? That is, can a single precise meaning be designated for parousia each and every time it occurs in the New Testament?

Proponents of A Non-Technical Usage

There is very little debate concerning the fact that parousia was a technical term outside the New Testament. Extant manuscripts evidence solid usage of parousia. Adolf G. Deissmann states, "From the Ptolemaic period down into the 2nd cent[ury] A.D. we are able to trace the word in the East as a technical expression for the arrival or the visit of the king or the emperor." (5) Few would debate Deissmann on this point. However, with regards to New Testament usage, Dr. John F. Walvoord writes, "As used in the New Testament, it [parousia] is obviously not a technical word. . . " (6) He further writes, contrary to how the term is used outside the N.T., "It is clear, at least, that no technical meaning for the term is established which would limit its use to either one or the other, i.e., the rapture or the second coming." (7) "It is the viewpoint of the writer [Walvoord] that [parousia is] used in a general and not a technical sense and that [it is] descriptive of both the rapture and the glorious return of Christ to earth." (8) Walvoord's comments reflect a change in the thinking of Pretribulationalists during the early 1940s. Dr. Richard R. Reiter writes,

Prior to the mid 1940s, pretribulationists generally viewed the Greek words parousia ("coming"), epiphaneia ("appearing"), and apokalupsis ("revelation") as technical terms specifying distinct phases of the return. They interpreted parousia as Christ's appearance in the sky including the Rapture of the church to meet Him in the air (I Thess. 4:16-17). By contrast epiphaneia and apokalupsis referred to the return of Christ to earth with His saints following the Great Tribulation (2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Peter 1:7), [Emphasis added]. (9)

That pretribulationalists have had a change in perspective on this matter is also supported by the comment of Keith L. Brooks,

We are fully aware of the discussion that has been going on over the Greek words 'parousia' (personal presence) and 'apokalupsis' (unveiling or revelation). Perhaps some excellent teachers have been mistaken in saying that the 'parousia' always indicates the moment when He comes for His saints and that 'apokalupsis' is used only for the moment when He comes in power and authority [Emphasis added]. (10)

Unfortunately, the pretribulationalists' change in perspective after the 1940s is wrong. Basically, the pretribulationist's solution to the matter is to adopt a two parousia eschatology. In the absence of a clearly explicit statement that there are two future parousias, the reader is left debating which passages refer to the first parousia and which passages refer to the second parousia. The prewrath position believes that there is only one future parousia of Christ and, using the word in the technical sense, it refers to Christ's coming in general, including both the snatching away of believers and the battle of Armageddon, thus removing the debate about which passages refer to which parousia.

Proponents of A Technical Usage

With regard to the use of parousia in the New Testament, BAGD, a very respected Greek lexicon in use today, states that parousia is used "in a special technical sense. . . of Christ.11 James E. Frame in the International Critical Commentary Series states,

Parousia is used untechnically in I Cor. 16:17, II Cor. 7:6-7, 10:10, Phil. 1:26 and 2:12. . . Whether the technical use ([I Thess.] 2:19, 3:13, 4:14, 5:23; II Thess. 2:1, 8 and I Cor. 15:23. . . ) is a creation of the early church. . . or is taken over from an earlier period. . . is uncertain. (12)

Frame recognizes a difference between the technical and untechnical usage of parousia. Frame is supported by Leon Morris when he states, "In the New Testament it [parousia] became a technical expression for the royal visit, the second coming of our Lord." (13) Tracy L. Howard also supports a technical sense for parousia when he says, "In the New Testament the word takes on a technical sense for the future advent of Christ." (14)

In commenting on parousia, D. Michael Martin writes, "Paul used the word to refer both to his own visits to his churches. . . and in the more technical sense of a divine or regal visitation (as when referring to the coming of the Lord. . . ). (15) Robert D. Culver when explaining Paul's use of parousia in I Corinthians 15:20-24 states, "Deismann (sic). . . has shown that parousia (presence, coming) was the technical term for the arrival of a potentate or his representatives. That it usuallyÑthis text includedÑsignifies in the New Testament the coming of Christ to set up the Messianic kingdom accords with this definition, and is the opinion of many modern commentators." (16) Both Mueller and Eerdman writing in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia support the conclusion that parousia is a technical term in the New Testament. (17)

To this point, we are able to conclude that scholars are divided concerning whether parousia is a technical term or not. The final determination must be made in light of its usage.

New Testament Usage

The term parousia is variously translated. Dr. W. Harold Mare writes, "A brief look at Parousia in Liddell-Scott's A Greek-English Lexicon shows that this word was used from the Homeric period down through that of the NT, with meanings ranging from the presence of persons to their arrival or advent. (18) Dr. John F. Walvoord argues that parousia "has come to mean not simply presence but the act by which the presence is brought about, i.e., by the coming of the individual." (19) Hogg and Vine take the opposite view.

The usual translation is misleading, because 'coming' is more appropriate to other words. . . the difference being that whereas these words fix the attention on the journey to, and the arrival at, a place, parousia fixes it on the stay which follows on the arrival there. It would be preferable, therefore, to transliterate the word rather than translate it, that is to use 'parousia,' rather than 'coming,' wherever the reference is to the Lord Jesus. (20)

The debate concerning whether parousia emphasizes different arrivals of Christ for different purposes, or a singular arrival and the presence of Christ that is initiated by the rapture of the church and ending with the battle of Armageddon, forces a choice between one or the other for every passage where parousia occurs.

This, however, is an over simplification. As a technical term, parousia would represent a multifaceted event each time beginning with the rapture of the church. Each passage must be evaluated in light of this context. Hogg and Vine's suggestion that parousia be transliterated instead of translated is a good one. This allows the reader to evaluate each passage in light of the context for him or herself. Hogg and Vine offer one other suggestion which is worthy of our attention. They indicate that "The Parousia of the Lord Jesus is thus a period with a beginning, a course, and a conclusion." (italic added) (21) I am in agreement with this point, however, I do not agree with their division of this period concerning what events will happen and when they will occur. (22)

The term parousia is used twenty-four times in the New Testament. (23) Of these twenty-four occurrences, seventeen refer to the coming of Jesus in the future (24) (1 Thess. 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:1, 8; 1 Cor. 15:23; Jas 5.7, 8; 2 Pet. 1:16, 3:4, 12; 1 Jn 2:28; Mat. 24:3, 27, 37 and 39). Dr. John F. Walvoord indicates that all the verses above refer to the rapture with the exception of Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, 39; 1 Thess. 3:13; 2 Thess. 2:8 and 2 Pet. 1:16 which refer to the second coming of Christ at the battle of Armageddon. (25) However, if parousia in the seventeen future oriented verses can be shown to refer to the same event, then sufficient grounds would be established to warrant designating parousia as a technical term whenever it is used in connection with the future return of Jesus Christ.

James' Usage

Taking the seventeen occurrences of parousia in the N.T. which refer to the future ministry of Jesus Christ in chronological order, we begin with the reference in the book of James. (26) James 5:7-8 states,

Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming [parousia] of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming [parousia] of the Lord is at hand.

The book of James is specifically addressed "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad. . . " These Jewish Christians (the righteous remnant of Israel) are urged to exercise patience until the parousia of Christ. In light of the nearness of Christ's parousia, James comforts the suffering Jewish Christians with the knowledge that Jesus, "the Judge is standing at the door," (James 5:9). Surely James is emphasizing the beginning of Christ's parousia. The suffering that James' audience was experiencing was to be alleviated at Christ's parousia. James uses the Greek preposition heos which is translated "until" which in this context basically refers to the period up to the parousia. The very beginning of Christ's parousia spells relief for God's people because when Christ comes, the parousia referred to in this passage, will be initiated by the rapture of the church.

Pauline Usage

Paul picks up James' teaching concerning Christ's coming to bring relief to His people in the Thessalonian Letters. He writes to the Thessalonians, "For they themselves declare. . . how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God and to wait for His Son from heaven. . . " Paul uses a term here that means "to await." Interestingly, the end of each chapter in this letter ends with a reference to the Lord's return. In I Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, and 5:23 the term parousia is used. The first example of the term parousia in the writings of Paul is in I Thessalonians 2:19 which states, "For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming [parousia]?" The Thessalonian church was composed of mostly Gentiles with some Jews. (27) Paul informs the Thessalonians that they are his hope and joy in the presence of Christ at His parousia. Along with this, Paul adds a prayer that Jesus will cause love to grow among the Thessalonians, "so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus with all His saints," (I Thess. 3:13). This is the second example of parousia in Paul's writings. Like I Thess. 2:19, here Paul is emphasizing the beginning of Christ's parousia. BADG indicates that the preposition en, translated "in" denotes "the point of time when something occurs." (28) This is Paul's favorite preposition to introduce the Lord's parousia.

The third example of the term parousia in Paul's writings occurs in I Thess. 4:15. Paul instructs the Thessalonians that those who survive until the time of Christ's parousia will be taken to be with the Lord when He comes from heaven. This is an event certainly connected with the beginning of Christ's parousia when the believer is removed and the wrath of God is poured out on those who remain.

The fourth example occurs in connection with I Thess. 5:23. Paul prays that the Lord will preserve the Thessalonians blameless until the parousia of Christ. Again, Paul emphasizes an action connected with the beginning of Christ's parousia. No indication is given that the Thessalonians need perseverance through Christ's parousia, but only up until or at the start of it, when the believer will be removed and the wrath of God will be poured out on those who remain.

The fifth example of parousia in the Thessalonians Letters occurs in II Thess. 2:1 and it reads, "Now brethren, concerning the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you. . . " What Paul alludes to in I Thess. 4:15-17 in detail, he summarizes here. Paul places himself in the same category as the Thessalonians. They will be gathered together at the parousia of Christ. Consistent with Paul's references in I Thessalonians, the emphasis is on the beginning of the event.

The sixth and final occurrence of parousia in the Thessalonian Letters is in II Thess. 2:8. Paul acknowledges that Jesus will slay the lawless one "with the breath of His mouth" and will destroy him "with the brightness of His coming," (parousia). Pretribulationalists debate this verse because of its obvious connection with the lawless one. They assign this verse to a second parousia which happens at Armageddon when Christ comes with His saints. However, there is no explicit biblical statement that the church accompanies Christ at Armageddon. There is no textually explicit indication that there are two parousias presented in the N.T. There is a simple and more logical explanation of the data presented in the N.T., namely the prewrath position.

One other fact argues against the pretribulational interpretation of II Thess. 2:8. After Antichrist recovers from his wound, he is not physically killed again. Revelation 19:20 indicates that at Armageddon he will be "cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone." A closer examination of II Thess. 2:8 reveals that the verb "slay" does not have its usual literal meaning. Rather, "(t)he verb is frequently used to designate murder; the end of the lawless one will be as decisive as that of a man who is murdered." (29) The verb "bring to an end" better explains Paul's intent. Leon Morris captures the essence of the verse when he writes, "In the present passage the verb refers to the robbing of the Man of Lawlessness of all significance, rather than to his destruction. . . " (30) A literal translation of Paul's intended meaning in II Thess. 2:8 would be, "And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and render insignificant by the appearance of His coming. . . " Therefore, Paul is not indicating that Antichrist will be physically killed at the Lord's second parousia as pretribbers teach. But rather, the Lord will diminish the significance of Antichrist. First, the Lord will cut short the persecution of Antichrist by taking away the object of his persecution as the Lord predicted in Matthew 24:22. The church will be snatched away to heaven. Second, the Day of the Lord's wrath begins "and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day," (Is. 2:17).

The final place in the writings of Paul where the term parousia occurs is I Corinthian 15:23 which states, "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming (parousia)." Paul informs the Corinthians who were predominately Gentile that the next phase of the first resurrection will occur at Christ's parousia. Few would argue that Paul emphasizes an action that is connected with the beginning of Christ's parousia here. It is important to recognize that Paul places the emphasis in all six verses where he uses the word parousia on the beginning of Christ's one and only parousia.

Petrine Usage

The Apostle Peter also makes a contribution to our discussion. He says, "For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty." Some have concluded that Peter is here discussing the first coming of Christ. However, Lenski argues, "The double terms have but one article: "the power of our Lord Jesus Christ and Parousia," so that "power and Parousia" constitute one idea, "power" bringing out the thought of the omnipotent might involved in the Lord's second coming. . . " (31) It would appear that Peter is speaking to the end result of the Day of the Lord, rather than emphasizing the beginning or the course of the Lord's parousia. Peter describes the ultimate result unlike the Revelation of Jesus Christ to His bond-servants which indicate that the destruction of the earth will progressively worsen until Armageddon. Peter's second reference to Christ's parousia occurs in II Peter 3:3-4. Peter informs the readers that "scoffers will come in the last days. . . saying, 'Where is the promise of His coming (parousia)?'" Few would argue that this is not a reference to the beginning of the Lord's future ministry on earth. Given that once the church is removed from the earth, "all things" certainly will not "continue as they were from the beginning of creation." Peter's final reference occurs in II Peter 3:12. In this verse, it is "the day of God" that is coming (parousia). The fact that Peter refers to the Day of the Lord in 3:10 with the same results as the day of God in 3:12 , supports the conclusion that they are one and the same. Here we find a reference to events that will transpire during the course of our Lord's parousia. The divine wrath that will destroy the created order follows the removal of the church at the beginning of Christ's parousia.

Johannine Usage

The Apostle John has only one example of parousia. "And now, little children, abide in Him, that if He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming (parousia)," I John 2:28. John's use of that little word if introduces a third class condition which indicates that something may or may not happen. What is conditional here is not the event itself (Christ will return), but the uncertainty of the timing of Christ's return. The fact that John adds an element of uncertainty requires that we understand this passage as a reference to Christ's future ministry of removing the church before the wrath of God begins. There is uncertainty about the timing of the beginning of the Lord's parousia, but there is no uncertainty about the period following the conclusion of Daniel's Seventieth Week. Consistent with Paul and Peter, John's focus is on the beginning of the parousia.

Matthew's Usage

The final four examples of parousia in the N.T. with reference to the future ministry of Christ occur in Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, and 39. These are the most controversial passages concerning the use of parousia! Pretribbers want to make these passages a reference to the battle of Armageddon only, rather than a reference to the overall event of Christ's coming, beginning with the rapture of the church. Matthew's employment of parousia is most instructive. The disciples' question and the Lord's answer provide a detailed explanation of end- time events that form the basis of the teachings of Paul, Peter, James, and John. Matthew, who wrote his gospel after Paul, Peter, James, and John wrote their epistles, would certainly have offered some corrective insight if his use of the term parousia was different than that of Paul, Peter, James, and John. Matthew on several occasions explains to his readers information that clarifies something he wrote. He explained Hebrew and Aramaic words so that his readers would better understand his points. He quotes O.T. passages to explain N.T. events. One should conclude that Matthew means the exact same thing as Paul, Peter, James and John by his use of the term parousia. Matthew specifically uses this term to tie together the teachings of Christ and His Apostles. Matthew emphasizes the beginning of Christ's parousia in all four occurrences.

Conclusion

What shall we say then? Is the parousia of Christ that future ministry of Jesus Christ which is initiated by the snatching away of the saints, followed by the punishment of the wicked? The answer is an emphatic yes! The parousia in Matthew is the same that is in Paul, Peter, James and John. Other than God's revelation to Jesus recorded by John, Matthew gives the most detailed outline of end-time events. Paul, Peter, James, and John fill in a few blanks and restate a few of the details given by Matthew. The chart below summarizes the N.T. teachings concerning the parousia of Christ. Notice the parallelism between the Olivet Discourse and the teachings of the Apostles.

The Olivet Discourse on the PAROUSIA of Christ The PAROUSIA Outside the Gospels The return of Christ is called "His parousia" by Peter, James, John, and Andrew (Mt. 24:3; Mk. 13:3). Paul (1 Co. 15:23), James (Ja. 5:7- 11), Peter (2 Pe. 3:4), and John (1 Jn. 2:28-29) all call the return of Christ a parousia. The parousia of Christ will be seen and heard universally (Mt. 24:27). The parousia of Christ will be seen and heard universally (1 Th. 4:16). The parousia of Christ will follow the days of great tribulation of Antichrist (Mt. 24:15-22, 29). The parousia of Christ will follow the persecution of Antichrist (2 Th. 2:1-10). Believers have no need to be warned about the parousia of Christ (Mt. 24:23-26). Believers have no need to be misled concerning the sequence of events during the end times (2 Th. 2:1-10). The Day of the Lord is associated with the parousia of Christ (Mt. 24:29). The Day of the Lord is associated with the parousia of Christ (2 Th. 2:1-10). All unbelievers of the Earth will suffer at Christ's parousia (Mt. 24:30). Unbelievers will be punished at Christ's parousia (2 PE 3:4; JA 5:7-12). The parousia of Christ will be with power and great glory (Mt. 24:30). The "brightness of His parousia" will bring Antichrist's persecution to an end (2 Th. 2:8). Angels are identified with the parousia of Christ (Mt. 24:31). Angels are identified with the parousia of Christ (1 Th. 3:11-13). Christ will send His angels to gather the elect from everywhere at His parousia (Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27). The next phase of the resurrection occurs at the parousia of Christ (1 Co. 15:23; 1 Th. 4:16). The sending of the angels will be accompanied by a great blast of a trumpet (Mt. 24:31). The parousia will be accompanied by the trumpet of God (1 Co. 15:23; 1 Th. 4:13-18). Tribulation saints will be delivered at the parousia (Mt. 24:13, 29- 31). Believers are to expect deliverance at the parousia of Christ (JA 5:7-11). The disciples are warned that a negative judgment could result at the parousia of Christ (Mt. 24:45-51). Paul and John warn believers that negative judgment could result at the parousia of Christ (1 Th. 5:23; 1 Jn. 2:28-29).

Pretribulationalists like Dr. Walvoord argue for a non-technical designation of parousia. This allows them to teach two parousias separated by seven years. Posttribulationists support a technical designation for parousia. This allows them to teach that the parousia of Christ will involve the deliverance of believers and the punishment of the wicked. They teach that believers are caught up to meet Jesus in the air and then will immediately come back to earth for Armageddon. The prewrath position recognizes the fact that the truth is a synthesis of these two positions. Parousia is not a technical term in general throughout the NT It is, however, used in a technical sense in the seventeen NT references to Christ's future return. "The grandeur of the Lord, the honor due him at his arrival, and the significance of his coming for both his enemies and his friends are all implicit in the technical use of the term parousia." (32) The technical sense covers the timeframe from the coming of Christ to snatch away the church until the ultimate destruction of the wicked at Armageddon. The time between these events is neither immediate, i.e. no time, as posttribbers teach nor divided by seven years as pretribbers insist. At best, all that can be said about the time interval between the beginning and the end of the Lord's parousia, is that it will be a single event no less than six months (the fifth trumpet judgment will last five months [Rev. 9:5] and Armageddon occurs at the end of the 30 day reclamation period [Dan. 12:11]), and no more than two to three years (the time necessary to accomplish all the trumpet and bowl judgments of God's wrath once the great tribulation is cut short by Christ's parousia in the second half of Daniel's 70th Week).

The parousia of Christ will cut short the persecution of Satan/Antichrist, (Matt. 24:22, Mark 13:20). When God decides it is time to end the persecution of Satan/Antichrist against His elect, God will turn out all natural light sources, (Joel 3:15, Rev. 6:12- 13, Matt. 24:29); then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, (Matt. 24:30); then Jesus will be seen coming on the clouds with angelic accompaniment and the sounding of the trumpet of God, (Matt. 24:31, I Thess. 4:16); then the dead in Christ will be called from the grave, (I Thess. 4:16, I Cor. 15:52); then God will send forth the angels to gather the living elect into the air, (I Thess. 4:17); then Christ and the elect (both Israel and Gentiles) will return to heaven, (John 14:1-3); then the six trumpet judgments will fall upon the earth to finish out the 70th Week of Daniel. The first day after the end of the 70th Week of Daniel the death of the two witnesses will occur, (Rev.11:7-10). Christ will immediately come to earth and gather together all Israel for her salvation, (Rev. 10:7, 14:1; Rom. 11:25-27; Zech. 14:4); then Christ will split the Mount of Olives and send Israel to Azel for the duration of the bowl judgments, (Zech. 14:5); then Christ shall return to heaven while the bowl judgments fall upon the kingdom of Satan, (Rev. 14:14-16:21); then the final event called Armageddon will occur, (Rev. 19:11-21). The parousia of our great God and King will end with the beginning of the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.

Endnotes

1. H.I. Hester, The Heart of the New Testament, (Liberty: The Quality Press, Inc., 1979), 42.

2. S. Angus, Vulgate, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, V. 5, (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1939) 3059.

3. ibid.

4. William W. Klein, "Paul's Use of Kalein: A Proposal," JTS 27 (March 1984): 63.

5. Adolf G. Deissmann, Light From Ancient East, trans. Lionel R.M. Strachan (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1910), 372.

6. Walvoord, "New Testament Words for the Lord's Coming," p. 285.

7. ibid., 289.

8. ibid., 284. Italic and emphasis added.

9. Richard R. Reiter, et al, The Rapture: Pre-, Mid-, or Post- Tribulational? (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1984), p. 30.

10. ibid., 238. This comment is taken from endnote number 78.

11. Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Trans. and rev. by W.F. Arndt, F.W. Gingrich, and F.W. Danker, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 635.

12. James E. Frame, Epistle of St. Paul to The Thessalonians, (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1960), 123.

13. Leon Morris, The First and Second Epistles to the Thessalonians, in NICNT (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing Co, 1984), 96-97.

14. Tracy L. Howard, "The Literary Unity of 1 Thessalonians 4:13- 5:11," GTJ 9 (Fall, 1988): 177.

15. D. Michael Martin, I and II Thessalonians in The New American Commentary, (Nashville: Broadman and Holman Publishers, 1992), 99.

16. Robert D. Culver, "A Neglected Millennial Passage from Saint Paul," Bsac 113 (April, 1956): 148.

17. John T. Mueller and Charles R. Erdman, s.v. parousia, ISBE, Vol. IV (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1939), 2249-2251.

18. W. Harold Mare, "A Study of the New Testament Concept of the Parousia," in Current Issues in Biblical and Patristic Interpretation: Studies in Honor of Merrill C. Tenney, (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975), 336.

19. Walvoord, "New Testament Words for the Lord's Coming," 285.

20. C.F. Hogg and W.E. Vine, The Epistles to the Thessalonians, (Fincastle: Scripture Truth Book Co., 1959), 87

21. ibid., 88.

22. ibid. Hogg and Vine indicate that the beginning is prominent in (I Thess.) 4:15, 5:23; II Thess. 2:1; I Cor. 15:23, Jas. 5:7,8; 2 Pet. 3:4; the course here (I Thess. 2:19) 3:13; Matt. 24:3,37,39; and I John 2:28; the conclusion in II Thess. 2:8 and Matt. 24:27.

23. I. Howard Marshall, "The Parousia in the New TestamentÑAnd Today," in Worship, Theology and Ministry, M. Wilkins, et al, eds. page 194.

24. Please see footnote 1 in I. Howard Marshall, "The Parousia in the New TestamentÑAnd Today," 194.

25. Walvoord, "New Testament Words for the Lord's Coming," 285.

26. Scholars debate the priority of James to I Thessalonians.

27. Frame, The Epistles of St. Paul to the Thessalonians, 4.

28. BADG, s.v. en, page 259.

29. D. Edmond Hiebert, The Thessalonian Epistles, (Chicago: Moody Press, 1971), 315.

30. Morris, The First and Second Epistles to the Thessalonians, footnote 34.

31. R.C.H. Lenski, The Epistles of St. Peter, St. John and St. Jude, (Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1945), 285. See also Mare, "A Study of the New Testament Concept of the Parousia," 339.

32. D. Michael Martin, I and II Thessalonians, 99-100.

Reprinted from Parousia #9, Fall 1998.

October, 2000

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-- Anonymous, April 02, 2001

Here the article has certainly redefined "coming," for if Jesus can come back from heaven before the trumpets, depart for some time back into heaven, then come back again after the trumpets, then depart again for some time back into heaven, then come back again after the vials, and these can all be referred to as a single "coming," then there is no 2nd coming, for Jesus' returns would simply be subsequent stages of his 1st coming as a babe in Bethlehem.

I personally don't believe the rapture will be at the 6th seal, but will be "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), after the 7 trumpets and 7 vials are finished, for when Christ comes to gather us the Antichrist is destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Revelation 19:20). The Antichrist isn't destroyed at the 6th seal, for he is still gathering his armies after the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12-16), and isn't destroyed until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19- 20), after the vials (Revelation 16).

Between the 6th and 7th vials, Jesus exhorts us to hold on (Revelation 16:15). I believe this is the same blessing as Daniel 12:11-12, so that we will have to wait 1,335 days from the abomination of desolation until the 2nd coming.

http://www.geocities.com/postrib/

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2001

Connie,

You could have simply referenced the site and saved a WHOLE lot of space. Besides, cut & pasting copyrighted material is illegal.

postrib,

You have not answered my question. You have told me WHAT you believe, but I asked you WHY?

Link,

No. I do not believe in a "secret rapture." I believe strongly that the unrighteous will be taken immediately before the righteous. The parable of the tares makes this clear. I wrote an article once called "You'll never see that o my car" in which I deal with this (http://www.cccflorida.org/Car.htm). I also strongly believe that when Jesus returns that all the events will happen so quickly that we will not be noticing who went when.

Since the term "rapture" carries so much anti-scriptual baggage, I simply choose not to use it. The wording of Paul is sufficient for me.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2001

Both Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2 make clear that the post-trib position is the biblical position. Every other option involves distorting the clear message of the New Testament.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2001

Statements are easy to make. Show me how, without distorting Scripture:o)

I dont think you can do it. Premillennialism (no matter what flavor) is flawed from it's beginning - The Kingdom is not in the future, it is now - The Church.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2001

postrib,

Can you please show me where John talks about "the Antichrist" in Revelation? I read in I John that "many antichrists have appeared" (2:18) and in I John 4:3 that "this is of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and NOW IS ALREADY in the world" (emphasis mine).

I also read in II John 7 that the antichrist is "those (plural) who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ coming in the flesh."

Could you please show me where one individual is mentioned as "THE Antichrist"?

Please do not say 2 Thessalonians 2 for there is someone called a man of lawlessness, but that is not the name we are discussing, and besides he has nothing to do with the individual we're discussing (at least not directly).

Show me "The Antichrist" please!

And let's keep C.G. happy. Please do not distort Scripture.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2001

Hello, Scott,

I gave complete credit for that article and didn't change a single word. Also, I copied and pasted it because almost none would bother to go to the site. I saved them the effort.

C.G. is correct.

It will be at the 'the last trump' AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS'. Just before the 7 vials of wrath are poured out. 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1260 days-plus into the tribulation.

Tim LaHaye's fictional account does damage to the real prophecies. Immenency is not valid. Too much prophecy has to be fulfilled.

By the way:

This is the Kingdom? Lambs are cavorting with wolves? Weapons are turned into plowshares? Satan is bound? I don't think so.

I had worked on a response last night for almost an hour when I was kicked off the 'net, and couldn't get back what I had saved. I was too tired to re-do it. Eventually I will. I know you are waiting with bated breath. ;-)

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2001

Also, only John mentions 'antichrist' (in John, not in the Revelation).

TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY IN BIBLE PROPHECY

By Charles W. Miller

Lesson 38: The decline of the last beast's seven heads, the ten horns' rise to prominence, and the beast's relationship with Mystery Babylon, tomorrow's world capital.

I The vision of a woman sitting on a scarlet beast.

1 And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I shall show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality." 3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, (Rev. 17:1-4, NASB).

A The meaning of the imagery of "the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters."

1 The harlot represents the international government's capital city.

2 The imagery of "many waters" stands for the world's people that Mystery Babylon will control through the new religious order and the computerized international financial system.

3 The city's relationship with the world government is depicted here as a woman sitting on a seven-headed, ten-horned, "scarlet"-colored beast.

4 In other words, the nations that will set up tomorrow's international government will support the cost of running the capital city.

B What does the color scarlet or red reveal?

1 Scarlet identifies Red China's hand in molding the international government's bureaucratic machinery into a murderous tool of oppression.

2 Once in place, the Chinese will use the ruthless institutions of the world government to dominate and control the nations.

C How do we know that this is the correct interpretation of the color red?

- From the authority of John's initial introduction of the Fourth Beast: "And the dragon gave to it the power of it and the throne of it and great authority" (Rev. 13:2, IGENT).

D How do recent developments in China conform to the Revelation's forewarning that Red China's hard-line communist policies will eventually come to dominate the governing character of the Fourth Beast?

1 In recent years Red China has acknowledged the failure of its communist economic policies and rushed to embrace free-market practices.

2 During the same period of economic change, however, the Communist Party's firm central political control over the people has remained absolute.

a Authorities still watch, program and keep a detailed dossier on each Chinese citizen.

b All dissent is simply liquidated.

c Such was the case in 1989 when the Red Army brutally crushed the democracy movement in Tiananmen Square.

3 According to the imagery of the last beast's scarlet color, hard-line communists will ultimately prevail over any future Chinese democracy movements, and they will also eventually succeed in shaping the character of the governing institutions of the Fourth Beast.

E What does the imagery of the harlot "having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality represent?"

1 It shows that this religious capital city will enrich itself through the instruments of treachery, oppression, murder, and other acts of abomination.

2 For example, Christians who will not be able to buy or sell, will lose their property and other assets to the international government.

3 The imagery suggests that the Fourth Beast will finance its murderous operation, in part, through the sale of confiscated goods and other assets taken from undesireables such as Christians.

F What pretext might the international government use to justify its persecution of the world's Christians?

- The idea that Christian dissent against the new world secular and religious order could stir up unrest that would lead to another devastating nuclear conflict.

5 And upon her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." 6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And when I saw her, I wondered greatly (Rev. 17:5-6, NASB).

A The Apostle John wondered why the mysterious name, "Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth," was written on the harlot's forehead.

B A history of ancient Babylon's origin, found in the writings of the Jewish historian, Josephus, provides some insight into this mystery.

1 Josephus noted that after the great flood the sons of Noah settled in the plain of Shinar.

2 Although God had instructed them to spread abroad, one of Noah's great-grandsons, Nimrod, led a rebellion against God's instruction and persuaded the people to build a tower and the city called Babylon.

3 According to Josephus, Nimrod's goal was to bring everyone under his control for the purpose of enhancing his own personal power and importance.

4 Although Nimrod's plan got off to a good start, Gen. 11 reports that the rebellious kingdom was destroyed when God stepped in and confounded the peoples' language and so scattered its inhabitants abroad.

C According to Daniel, another great kingdom of Babylon was built by Nebuchadnezzar about 1600 years later.

1 Nebuchadnezzar, like Nimrod, led a rebellion against God, set up a false religion, and attempted to conquer and control all the people on the earth.

2 Despite Nubuchadnezzar's best efforts, he also failed to conquer and control all the earth's people, and his kingdom and its false religion came to an end.

D According to Bible prophecy, how will the city of Babylon that will rule the world at the end of the nuclear age, be patterned after the previous two kingdoms of Babylon?

1 The last Babylon will have as its central objective the control of all the earth's people.

2 It will lead a rebellion against God.

3 It will set up a false religion complete with a life-like image for people to worship.

E Since the last Babylon will be the third Babylon to come to world prominence, why is it called "the mother of harlots?"

1 The prophetic facts show that whereas the first two Babylons eventually failed in their bid to rule over all the people on the earth, the last Babylon will successfully accomplish this feat for three-and-one- half years.

2 Note further that the Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar's day had to rely on informers to enforce the commandment to bow down and worship the golden image, while the last Babylon will have a world-wide, satellite-linked, computer-based banking system to enforce the worship of its lifelike image.

3 Clearly, the first two Babylons were mere children compared to the last, "Babylon the Great," when it comes to creating a false religion and enforcing a worldwide rebellion against God.

4 Interestingly, before U.S.-led coalition forces engaged Iraq's army in the 1991 fight for Kuwait, Saddam Hussein used the expression "The Mother of all Battles" to warn the allies that if war broke out the ensuing conflict would dwarf all previous battles.

II The mysterious imagery explained in terms of the beast's rise to power and its relationships between the woman, the seven heads, and the ten horns.

7 And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I shall tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns (Rev. 17:7, NASB). 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is (Rev. 17:8).

A How does the statement "and [the beast] shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" provide the key to understanding this verse?

1 "Bottomless pit" (abyss in the Greek), refers to the period of unprecedented chaos that will follow AWWI--(first defined in the Fifth Trumpet prophecy).

2 The statement establishes the prophetic fact that the coalitions of powers represented by seven heads and ten horns "was"--in other words, they will exist before AWWI takes place.

B John was also told that the beast will cease to exist ("and is not") immediately following the destruction of one-third of the earth by that atomic war, to the extent that international institutions will cease to function.

C Then, "out of the bottomless pit," or post-AWWI ashes, a new set of binding agreements between nations will be formed, or revived, which will be similar to the international alliances that existed before the atomic war occurred.

D The text's closing proclamation states that the nations' powerful world government will end up failing completely and "go to destruction" (IGENT).

E The passage also teaches that while the world's unbe- lievers will wonder after the "beast" and blindly follow it "to destruction," the world's Christian community, whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life, will not render homage to it.

F In summary, the imagery reveals that these coalitions of nations will establish a cohesive power-sharing arrange- ment with each other and the "woman" after the war.

9 Here is the mind having wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, where the woman sits on them, and are seven kings: (Rev. 17:9) IGENT.

A The seven heads are identified here as "seven mountains," which "are seven kings," or countries.

B The symbolic statement that "The seven heads are seven mountains, where the woman sits on them," shows that these seven countries will underwrite Babylon's initial construction costs and the development of a computerized international financial system.

10 The five fell, the one is, the other not yet come, and whenever he comes it behoves him to remain a little while (Rev. 17:10, IGENT).

A Since the central theme of this prophecy is the impact AWWI will have on the international balance of power, it follows that "the five fell" refers to the prostrate condition of five of these seven heads/nations, immediately after AWWI.

B The imagery states that a sixth will be relatively unscathed by the war and in a position of strength.

C The seventh head/country will rise to a position of prominence when a charismatic leader gains control of that country, at some point following the atomic war.

D The language states that this leader will only last a short time and implies that the leader will not survive his deadly wound.

E Why is it reasonable to expect a plan to establish a world financial center and the actual construction of "Mystery Babylon" to take place before AWWI erupts?

1 First note that the seven influential heads/nations will need stable and prospering economies to shoulder the financial cost of building this city.

2 "Five fell" indicates that the five heads/nations devastated by AWWI would not be in a financial position to fund the building of Babylon following the war.

11 And the beast which was and is not, even he is an eighth, and is of the seven, and to destruction goes (Rev. 17:11, IGENT).

A The fact that the seven-headed, ten-horned beast will cease to function, or exist, following the devastation wrought by AWWI, is stated again here for emphasis.

B The added informative statement that "even he is an eighth, and is of the seven" shows that the individual who will gain control of the world government, will eventually rise out of the group of seven, to an eighth position of higher authority.

C At this point, the eighth head will be the dictator of the world.

12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour (Rev. 17:12, NASB). 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast (Rev. 17:13).

A John is told here that the powers represented by the ten horns do not exist in his day, but that they will rise up on the earth in the future and be given ruling authority with the final configuration of the "Fourth Beast."

B How long will the special ruling authority granted for "one hour" with the beast, be in actual time?

- Since Rev. 13:5 stated that "authority was given to it [the beast] to act forty-two months," the "one hour" the ten horns "receive authority as kings with the beast" must also equal forty-two months.

C The statement "These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast" indicates that the ten countries will, in some respects, be wholly indepen- dent of each other; but, on the issue of promoting the world government and the new computerized international monetary system, they will be completely united.

D They will willingly give their power and strength to the establishment of the new "world government beast" and the dictator who will initially run it.

III What evidence shows that the historical assignment of the ancient nations of Chaldea, Egypt, the Babylon of Daniel's day, Persia, and Greece, to represent the five heads that fell, is incorrect?

A Daniel explicitly stated in the vision of the four beasts that "these four beasts are four kingdoms that shall rise up on the earth" (Dan. 7:17, TSVGE).

B Since Daniel had the vision of the four beasts during the reign of Belshazzar, the last king of Babylon, the Babylon of Daniel's day was not one of the four beasts.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

SINCE DANIEL HAD THE VISION OF THE FOUR BEASTS DURING THE REIGN OF BELSHAZZAR, THE LAST KING OF BABYLON, THE BABYLON OF DANIEL'S DAY WAS NOT ONE OF THE FOUR BEASTS.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2001

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From II Thessalonians 2:1-12:

The KJV Strong's Version 2 Thessalonians 2

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2001

THIS IS THE OUTLINE OF ESCHATOLOGY I USED WHILE TEACHING IN THE ARCTIC

Matthew 24:

Jesus’ train of thought about the great tribulation runs like this:

1. There will be birth-pangs (wars, pestilence, famine, etc.) but the end is not yet. (verses 1-8)

2. Christians will be persecuted; many will fall away from the faith. (Which makes it pretty clear that once-saved always- saved is not a Biblical teaching.) Only those who endure to the end will be saved. (verses 9-11, 13)

3. There will be a tremendous evangelism/missions effort by the church--reaching the whole world. (verses 12-15)

4. The great tribulation. (verses 15-28). THERE IS NO MENTION OF A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE. JESUS TEACHES THAT THE CHURCH IS HERE DURING THE TRIBULATION. This passage makes that abundantly clear:

He says that this is how the tribulation will be:

21: For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22: And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. (Matthew 24:21-22 RSV)

Jesus says that if it were not for the sake of the elect, the days would not be shortened and no one would be saved. Now the term “elect” in the NT means those who will be saved. Pre- Trib folks water this down by saying Jesus means the elect Jews who are saved after the rapture. But Jesus does not say this! He says if it were not shortened “no human being would be saved.” This indicates to me that it is clear Jesus is teaching that the church is here during the tribulation!

5. The End. (verses 29-44) Here is where Jesus talks about the rapture. It is clear that the rapture occurs AFTER the tribulation, because in verse 31, which is clearly after the tribulation, the elect are gathered by the angels. THE LAST TRUMPET SOUNDS IN VERSE 31. which is also referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4:16--but Jesus makes it clear that this is AFTER THE TRIBULATION, which is in verse 21.

The popular novel series LEFT BEHIND, is thus based on an entirely fallacious theology. Even the title is taken from a twisting and misquoting of Scripture.

37: As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. 38: For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39: and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. 40: Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. 41: Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. 42: Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. (Matthew 24:37-42 RSV)

The term “left behind” is not explicitly stated or implied in this passage. What Jesus says is “some will be taken and some will be left.” And he likens this to the time of Noah, when some were taken (by the flood) and others left (the saved.) Even John MacArthur and John Walvoord see this inconsistency, but both erroneously cling to a pre-trib rapture. Walvoord goes as far to say it is not in scripture but is to be assumed!

In the footnotes of the MacArthur Study Bible, John MacArthur comments on the phrase “one of them will be taken” (NKJV): I.e., taken away in judgment (cf. v. 39) just as in “Noah’s day” (“took them” v.39). This is clearly NOT a reference to the catching away of believers described in 1 Thess. 4:16-17.

6. A final concern. (Verses 44-51)

Here Jesus tells us we do not know when his return to earth will be. That means it is impossible to have a raputre and then say he will return 7 years later. We do not know. (But I believe neither the 1000 years, nor the 7 years are meant to be taken literally. The idea is that the tribulation will seem short in comparison to the glory of heaven. Nowhere does the Bible say the 1000 year reign of Christ and the saints happens on this earth.) If John the revelator heard most radio and TV sermons based on his book, he would not believe they got what they were saying from what he wrote!

(A Parenthetical Note:

Many people cite Revelation 3:10 as proof of a pre-trib rapture:

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (NASB)

But the Greek word here is ek, which occurs 55 times in John’s writings, and 47 of them, including this verse, mean to emerge from, rather than to remove from.

This is the sense meant in Revelation 7:

9: After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10: and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11: And all the angels stood round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12: saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God for ever and ever! Amen." 13: Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?" 14: I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night within his temple; and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence. 16: They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. 17: For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

GOD’S WORD translates Revelation 3:10 this way:

“Because you have obeyed my command to endure, I will keep you safe DURING the time of testing which is coming on the whole earth to test those living on earth.”

This is a correct translation, and makes it clear the church goes through the tribulation. In fact, the word tribulation occurs 20 times in the NT and each time it is used with reference to believers rather than non-believers.)

1 Thessalonians, 4:13-18 RSV

13: But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14: For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15: For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16: For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17: then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18: Therefore comfort one another with these words.

This is the passage on which most folks base their views of the rapture. But even here there is no idea of a rapture and then folks left behind--with a second Coming of Christ later. This is clear because in verse 15, Paul says he is speaking of those alive at the “coming of the Lord”. The dead in Christ rise first, then living believers join them and meet the Lord in the air. This happens at the trumpet of God and the call of the archangel. Now Jesus explicitly says in Matthew 24:31 that this trumpet call of God will happen AFTER the tribulation. So it is absolutely impossible that this passage teaches that when the rapture happens, life will keep going on this earth for those not raptured. That idea is totally foreign to the teachings of the New Testament.

2 Thessalonians, 2:1-14 RSV 1: Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, 2: not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3: Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, 4: who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5: Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? 6: And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7: For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8: And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. 9: The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, 10: and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11: Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, 12: so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13: But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14: To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

Note here that Paul links the second coming and the rapture in verse 1. They happen together--there is no interval of time between them. Our “gathering to meet him” is the rapture--and he mentions Jesus’ coming first.

Paul also says that the second coming and the rapture cannot happen until the Antichrist is revealed. (verse 3) He teaches us that this “lawless one” will be destroyed at Jesus’ coming. (verse 8--where he uses the same word for coming used in verse 1)

This being so--it is impossible for the rapture to be prior to the tribulation, because it happens at the same time as the second Coming (verse 1 makes this indisputably clear), and that is when the Antichrist is destroyed.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2001

CG,

You are correct about a few things but I disagree with most of what you posted. I want to thank you though for 1) not posting a long section of someone else's work (I have plenty of books myself so I can look things up too) and 2) explaining why you believe what you do. You are absolutlely correct in saying that "once saved, always saved" is a bogus belief that cannot stand up under the teachings of Scripture. It is the tail-end of Calvinism.

I too believe that the Church went through the time of the tribulation, but the difference between us is that you look to the future for a tribulation but Jesus said it was going to be the generation of the apostles that would go through it. The Church existed during the tribulation, i.e., the three year period of Rome's conquest of Jerusalem. That may make me some sort of post- tribulationalist, but that's a stretch. ;o)

Might I suggest you read Josephus, who was a witness to the events of the destruction of Jerusalem from the outside. He gives testimony of exactly what Jesus spoke of. Even General Titus recognized that God was in the destruction of the city for he knew he couldn't defeat such of fortified city so quickly - he said so. The days were indeed cut short, for if Jerusalem would have held out for a longer time it's a good bet that the death & destruction would've spread out into the regions where the Christians were safely hiding.

My problem is that I cannot understand why pre-mils insist upon looking to the future for prophecies that have already occurred. I'll get back to this later, but there you go CG. By the way, I pretty much gave a overall view of my understanding of Mt. 24 in the premil thread. It's definitely not exhaustive but take a look at it and let's talk.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2001

Scott, No Scripture is of private interpretation. The saints are God's Evangelical Christians. They are the LIVING body of Christ. If they, the Evangelical Christians are all interpreting something one way, and I am interpreting it another, chances are that I am wrong.

So how can I reconcile the obvious allusions in John's Apocalpse to 1st century culture, institutions, and events with what the bulk of God's saints, evangelist and prophets today all affirm categorically:

It's coming.

Well, obviously God is capable of writing on more than one level at a time. Clever guy that Elohim.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2001

timphronesia Eck asked that same question of Martin Luther during the Leipzig Debate, July 1519, "Except for you is all the Church in error?" The answer was "yes."

We do not gain truth by counting heads. Jeremiah was outnumbered in his day, yet he was faithful.

It is very easy to place Revelation into it's historical framework. I am amazed at the arrogance that so many have that God's book of Revelation could only be understood by we who live in 2001. Jesus, through John, wrote a book of encouragement to the Churches who were facing great persecution, and greater was yet to come. From the very first verse of Revelation we should understand that it was written to those of the first century "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which MUST SOON TAKE PLACE."

Now I realize that the premils on this forum want to break out their exacto knives and begin cutting the book apart saying that this piece was for them this one is still future, etc. But, give me a break. The only thing we are waiting on in Revelation is the coming of Christ to take us home and put an end to the old heavens and old earth.

And, BTW, I'm not as outnumbered as you may think I am.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2001

After rereading my last post I realize that "arrogance" is too strong a word to use and that "audacity" would be a better fit to what I had in mind.

And, btw, just because I reject premilism does not mean I do not believe Jesus is coming again. Hardly! No one knows when Christ will return. He may come tonight, tomorrow or ten thousand years from now. I dont know and neither does anyone else. I do get concerned however, when I see things that tell Jesus He cannot come back yet. Connie wrote "Tim LaHaye's fictional account does damage to the real prophecies. Immenency is not valid. Too much prophecy has to be fulfilled."

Too much prophecy??? According to whom??? Her viewpoint makes her say that. I find such statements to be ludicrous (Sorry Connie, but thats the nicest word I could come up with). So much for the parables about being ready. Let's just wait until the premils have all of their prophecies figured out. Then we can get ready. Yeah, audacity is the word.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2001

Written in 96 A.D. + - : NASB Revelation 1

1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated {it} by His angel to His bond-servant John, 1:2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, {even} to all that he saw. 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. 1:4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood-- 1:6 and He has made us {to be} a kingdom, priests to His God and Father-- to Him {be} the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him,

AND EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM, EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM;

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance {which are} in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like {the sound} of a trumpet,

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The thing I find strange in the amillennialist-preterist-partial preterist positions, and their variations, is that they have to suspend their reason so much, and are willing to do so.

Was the Roman Empire destroyed? No, it was on the rise in 96 A.D.

Were the sun, moon and stars affected? No, they are in the same condition as ever. Was a third of the world's population killed?

No, there were a million or so killed in the destruction of Jerusalem, but there were some 40 million people killed in the world in the 20th century. So, if we're comparing tribulations, the one in 70 A.D. pales in comparison.

ALL OF THE PROPHECIES HAVE TO BE FULFILLED, not just a couple.

I also find it strange that the account of a single writer ~ Josephus ~ would be believed over Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Matthew and John, et al.

Josephus, also, in his 'Wars' didn't claim to have seen Christ in the clouds. He claimed to have seen soldiers on horses in the clouds.

I personally think that Josephus had been imbibing some mind-altering substance at dinner that evening.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Hi.

The great tribulation has not yet begun. Passages such as 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 13 and Revelation 11 and Revelation 16, etc., have not been fulfilled yet.

Christ's 2nd coming will be "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), will be seen by every eye (Revelation 1:7), will bring the resurrection and rapture of the entire church (1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

A singular antichrist "shall come," even though many antichrists "even now are" (1 John 2:18). I believe Revelation 13:5- 10, 18 refers to a single individual who will commit great blasphemy, be given 42 months to rule the world and make war against the saints. I believe that this is the same single individual, blasphemy, 3 1/2 year period of rule, and war against the saints referred to by 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and Daniel 7:25, 12:7; and that Revelation 19:19- 20 refers to the same destruction of the Antichrist at Jesus' coming as 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9.

The millenium does not begin until after the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-20:6) and the resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6), which had not happened by the time Paul wrote 2 Timothy 2:18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, and by the time John wrote Revelation 19:11-20:6.

May the Lord bless you.

http://www.geocities.com/postrib/

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Connie, thank you for at least answering (attempting) my challenges. Talking with YOU is much preferable to scrolling past all the stuff that you cut and paste.

Learn your history a little better. Rome's glory days were behind her. With the ascension of Caligula to the throne, Rome began a downward spiral and everybody knew it. Yes, Rome lingered for several more years but she never regained the glory of Augustus and Tiberius. Claudius made a good effort but it failed.

The Sun, moon, stars etc, I have dealt with in other threads. Your opinions are so entrenched that you cannot seem to allow the Scriptures to speak for themselves. This phraseology is somewhat common in the OT and always had refernce to the destruction of great cities/nations. For example: Isaiah 13:10 uses this kind of language meaning that Babylon would fall "For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light."

Isaiah 34:4 & 5 uses this kind of language about Edom, "And all the host of heaven will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will also wither away As a leaf withers from the vine, Or as one withers from the fig tree. For My sword is satiated in heaven, Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction.

Ezekiel 32:7 & 8, "And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land," Declares the Lord GOD." This passage has reference to the destruction of Egypt.

Connie, this phraseology has a long history of use and when the prophecy came true, the destruction of the nation/city took place but you know what? The sun, moon, stars, etc., were still hung in their places. You cannot legitimately redefine what the Biblical writers meant with their words simply to squeeze it into your preconceived theories. It's dishonest.

Your attempts to compare "tribulations" is feeble at best. You seem to have chosen quantity over quality. Just because numerically Jerusalem didn't have as many deaths as the 20th century doesn't mean Jesus wasn't speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70. No one ever said Josephus had more creedence than the Biblical writers, but he was there when Jerusalem fell and you once again have dictated that only your view of the OT prophets is to be considered. I have studied Daniel, Ezekiel et al and in no way came to the conclusions you do. I did not suspend reason to do so. As a matter of fact, I gave reason first priority. I studied historical sources, did word studies, etc. Never even came close to the stuff you proclaim. Just because we disagree, quit building straw men by saying that I give Josephus more weight than Biblical writers. Because you know I dont. We've dealt with each other too many times in the past. And if anyone put more emphasis on the writings of other people, I would simply suggest you scoll up a little bit and see who is giving creedence to others.

postrib,

You again are simply making statements. Let's see how you get to the conclusions that you start with. How do you get the man of lawnessness (II Thess)to be "the antichrist" (I& II John) and then insert him into Revelation. How is that done? I can explain my viewpoint, explain it much more simply without the premil hokey pokey, and keep everyone in the book in which they are being spoken about.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

And postrib,

God bless you too!

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Hi, Scott,

You are so gentlemanly in your respinses.

I trust that you will not mind my posting from the Scriptures so that I can ask your opinion of them:

NASB Daniel 7 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel saw a dream R310 and visions in his mind {as he lay} on his bed; then he wrote the dream down {and} related the {following} summary of it. 7:2 Daniel said, "I was looking in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea. 7:3 "And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another. 7:4 "The first {was} like a lion and had {the} wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human mind also was given to it. 7:5 "And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs {were} in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, 'Arise, devour much meat!' 7:6 "After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it. 7:7 "After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 7:8 "While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great {boasts.} 7:9 "I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took {His} seat; His vesture {was} like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne {was} ablaze F201 with flames, Its wheels {were} a burning fire. 7:10 "A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. 7:11 "Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 7:12 "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time. 7:13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 7:14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and {men of every} language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. 7:15 "As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me. 7:16 "I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 7:17 'These great beasts, which are four {in number,} are four kings {who} will arise from the earth. 7:18 'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.' 7:19 "Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth R344 beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, {and which} devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 7:20 and {the meaning} of the ten horns that {were} on its head and the other {horn} which came up, and before which three {of them} fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great {boasts} and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 7:21 "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment R346 was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. 7:23 "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the {other} kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 7:24 'As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 7:25 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 7:26 'But the court will sit {for judgment,} and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 7:27 'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of {all} the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom {will be} an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.' 7:28 "At this point the revelation ended. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts were greatly alarming me and my face grew pale, but I kept the matter to myself.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ NASB Daniel 12 12:1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands {guard} over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace {and} everlasting contempt. 12:3 "Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 12:4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"BUT AS FOR YOU, DANIEL, CONCEAL THESE WORDS AND SEAL UP THE BOOK UNTIL THE END OF TIME; MANY WILL GO BACK AND FORTH, AND KNOWLEDGE WILL INCREASE".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

12:5 Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. 12:6 And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long {will it be} until the end of {these} wonders?" 12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half {a} {time;} and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these {events} will be completed. 12:8 As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what {will be} the outcome of these {events?}"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[DANIEL DIDN'T EVEN UNDERSTAND...]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 12:9 He said, "Go {your way,} Daniel, for {these} words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

HE SAID, "GO YOUR WAY, DANIEL, FOR THESE WORDS ARE SEALED UP UNTIL THE END TIME.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 12:10 "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. 12:11 "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, {there will be} 1,290 days. 12:12 "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! 12:13 "But as for you, go {your way} to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise {again} for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

May I have your exigesis? Or is that 'hermeneutic'? I can never keep them straight.

Respectfully,

Connie

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

I re-post to correct my typo:

You are so gentlemanly in your respinses.

'responses'

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Connie...

The commentator you quote from is an idiot. Please don't quote from him anymore. How about some of your own unhindered brain-power on this topic? Here's a question to get your synapses started: What standard do you use to determine what is to be taken symbolic and what is to be taken literal in the interpretation of John's Revelation?

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Connie,

The word is exegesis.

I suspect a little sarcasm in my gentlemanliness. That's alright. I will admit I get annoyed when someone uses someone elses work to make their point (at least when it's done by cut & paste). It's kind of like debating a book.

I would prefer to keep this thread on subject. Maybe you can start a new thread concerning Daniel. I will be more than willing to discuss it there (besides this thread is getting long). It's been awhile since I've exegeted Daniel and your questions are a good reason to do some refresher work.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

That's a good question. WHat do premils use as the standard of determining something literally and figurative? That is something I cannot even begin to grasp. Please answer this one, anybody.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Hi, Scott,

I know you will doubt this, probably, but I noticed that I misspelled:

'exegesis'

but I didn't come back and correct it. Thank you. I also have a sticking 'y' and sometimes do not notice when I've left it off. And I never use 'spell-check'.

Daniel is very relevant to this discussion, but I am happy to discuss it anywhere.

Since I am retired, I also have plenty of time. ;-)

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

I re-post from above:

Connie... The commentator you quote from is an idiot. Please don't quote from him anymore. How about some of your own unhindered brain-power on this topic? Here's a question to get your synapses started: What standard do you use to determine what is to be taken symbolic and what is to be taken literal in the interpretation of John's Revelation?

-- Michael W. Demastus (demastus@juno.com), April 04, 2001.

Context. And other verses relating to the same subject.

You have uninspired, DEAD experts, and I have uninspired LIVING experts. We all have different sources. But I copied and pasted God's words. What do you make of them?

Affectionately,

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Connie,

Instead of starting a new subject, what is your response to the passages I quoted earlier? I have demonstrated the "Sun and Moon" statements using Scripture of same context and wording. I've done it before and you've just ignored it until it is convenient for you to raise the same questions again. Please respond to it - and do more than just say that you believe otherwise.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Scott,

'Rapture' is scriptural terminology. It just comes through Latin. We use other words like 'soteriology' that aren't in the KJV, but are valid terms anyway.

If you don't want to use the term 'rapture' while you are teaching, I can certainly understand that. But to say that you 'don't believe in the rapture' leaves pre-,mid-, and post- trib people thinking that you don't believe that the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in teh air. Maybe you should say you don't believe in the popular rapture theories or the 'secret rapture.'

Btw, the tares will be burned in and the wheat put in the barn, but in a parable about the net, the firshermen it first talks about the good fish being gathered, and then talks about the bad being thrown away.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Exactly why I said it was all going to completed so quickly we won't be looking to see who went when. Jesus also said that it would be like the days of Noah (Mt. 24:37-46). Who was taken in the days of Noah - the unrighteous. To be dogmatic with a term or theory like the premils are concerning the "rapture" is bewildering, to say the least.

What does the KJV have to do with it? Nobody pitches fits over being pre, mid or post soteriological. Link, I stand firm on the comment I made earlier that premilism is faulty from it's very beginning.

Connie, concerning the Kingdom, please read my article at http://www.cccflorida.org/Kingdom.htm. It's not one of my better articles, but it is a decent treatment, albeit very short.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Link, WOuld you like to take a shot at Michael's question? It's a good one that deserves an answer.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Scott, please forgive me, but intellectual argument seems to have stalled here. Would you indulge me for a moment as I make an appeal to a kind of force? A sort of political argument. Sure the fact that the whole world thinks that one is mad is not sure proof of insanity. But it ought to raise a few questions...don't you think??

Thank you for your response above. It was very civil; and more than I expected or probably deserved. I think I will again test your patience below. May Grace cover us both.

The Accountability to the Body of Christ which is the very essence of my point above, is, in fact, what Luther struggled for, not opposed. The Catholic Church of his day didn't represent or serve that body very well at that time. Scripture is part of that body. We are all accountable to it. But so are the Saints. The Catholic Church of that day was accountable to neither. But most Lutheran and Reformation Churchs have striven for 500 years to return to accountability to both these and God in Heaven.

IN the Evangelical Christianity they have not only succeeded, but we know we have succeeded. How? By the power of the Unconditional Love working through us all.

Brother, are you aware of Evangelical Christianity? I hate to sound uncouth but, "Yo, Get with the program!" Do you realize how many we are? Ever hear of ***George Bush***? Do you realize just how phenomenomally we are growing? The music? The movies? WWJD? U2? BobDylan? Jane Fonda? Promise Keepers? 700 Club? Brownsville? Toronto? Vinyard? Rick Joyner? The Pope's personal chaplin? John Ashcroft? [Actually almost all this stuff is passé, but I figure you at least may have heard of some of these things.] This is only a small fraction of even the things that a hermit like me is aware of!

If you honestly think that you are right on this and that 99.99% of all God's saints who are alive today are wrong, then just who is the God that you think we Evangelicals worship and commune with daily, who guides my steps and SAVES my life? I can assure you, He is not the God of deception.

Obviously intellectual argument can go many ways; just as scripture can be made to say many things. But just as one may refuse to entertain the possibility that John was writing for more than ***just*** his time, so one may also also fail to understand that scripture [or any logical argument] can, logically, be made to say anything DEPENDING UPON THE ASSUMPTIONS AND ***SPIRIT*** IN AND BY WHICH IT IS READ.

I may be sinning here. I'm clearly pushing the line of being condemning toward you Scott, I appologize. However, I don't think what you have is any type of intellectual lack. Clearly this is a matter of Spiritual Warfare. So....

Lord, IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, I REBUKE THIS SPIRIT OF INTELLECTUAL ARROGANCE.

Scott, much of what you have to say is correct, but are you the only man with a point? Listening to the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of On Fire, fully awake Christians can be of great benefit. Sure they may be wrong, but you're not addressing ***their*** point! Your not taking them, and all that darn Spirit that their Eternal Infinity Allpowerful Creator ***continuously*** pours into them seriously! WHY WOULD GOD HIMSELF DELUDE HIS ENTIRE EVANGELICAL CHURCH ON THIS?? Sure a few of us may be deceived at any one time, but...Can even any group of people ***all*** be fooled ***all*** the time??? Lincoln thought more highly of the simple voting settlers of the early nation than you do of the Saints?

Let's just address my most salient point. Can God write for more than just one person? Can He write for more than just one time? Can God be smart enough to have written prophecy that resonate with more than one era? Surely a brilliant man like you must be aware of all the prophecies in the OT that applied to nearly immediate events but were later used, even by Jesus Himself to apply to later events? If the Lord can interpret prophecy in such a way, why can't we.

Lord, bless us and keep us safe in your Grace. Save us. Come quickly.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

timphronesia,

Wow. There's a lot to respond to here. First, I do not mean to be unkind, but listen to yourself. You say that intellectual argument has stalled and then say I should believe what you do because most people do. Maybe I'm just not THAT intellectual (and I don't want to be). Although I am flattered that you think me so smart.

According to your methodology, everyone on this forum and in the Churches should become Muslim. They are, by far, the most popular religion. How can so many be wrong?

You say that because you think I stand alone that it should make me think. Well, the thought that crosses my mind is "What's wrong with you guys?" Listen to me, please, I'm not nearly as outnumbered as you think I am, neither do I believe something very novel. Just because you may be unfamiliar with my positions is a reflection upon you, not me.

I agree with you about accountability. And when you can show me from the Word of God where I am wrong, instead of taking a vote, I will change my viewpoint.

And btw, there is only one kind of Christianity. The right one. All else is false. That is the nature of truth. Evangelical or otherwise.

Your reasoning for how we know of the success of Ev. Christianity is extremely subjective. If this is true, why then is the abortion rate among Ev. Christians the same as the rest of the population? Why is the divorce rate the same (some places higher)? The only way we can measure success in the Church is not numbers, is not good feelings, but is only by our submission to the Word of God.

And please do not speak to me of intellectual arrogance. You gave me a fairly lengthy response with not one single Scripture verse to support yourself, telling me I should repent (my word not yours), Rebuke me, and insist I get in line behind the premil view - and you call me intellectually arrogant! Pa-leeeeze.

One other thing. Quit being a hermit and do some reading - primarily of the Word of God. I have some suggestions of some other good books, many, if you'd care to follow through with that. Maybe it would open your eyes to the fallacies of the premil view. Of course, most people will still believe otherwise, but then again, we're not taking a vote, are we?

And I have yet to see an answer to Michael's question. Connie said "context" but I have given several passages of Scripture in their context and have been told it cannot be right and the only reason I can find is that it conflicts with their theory. Dont confuse me with the facts, my minds made up.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

Below is a response, in part, I received from someone who Identifies themselves as "little bear". I have problems when people do not identify themselves by name and then take such a critical spirit. DVBZ was notorious for th is, and brother Saffold was the brunt of it. I would love to ask all those who post to identiy themselves by first and last name.

Also, I think this is a forum for the mature, not for babes in Christ.

On Thu, 5 Apr 2001 09:25:29 EDT RaccoonJnSmith@aol.com writes: > Hi CG, > BTW, I find the arguments on this "Christian Church" link > deplorable. All I see is men and women seeking power over the > other. I do not think this is scriptural, if so, show me. The Lord said to GO > and make disciples, etc., not sit at the computer and vegetate debating one > another. Why not communicate with missionaries worldwide and see if you > can assist them? I have been surfing the net trying to find a Bible study > group for the new converts to participate in. You have failed. They do not > need to learn how to argue with one another, they need love and nurturing.

Yes, you are correct about what the new converts need, but that does not mean that this forum should do this, or that we or I have failed. You do not even know me and come across as quite judgmental and then do not have the decency to name yourself. I do not care for that.

CG White, Pastor Pilot View Friends Church 3225 Pilot View Church Road Yadkinville NC 27055 Home: 336-961-3215 Church: 336-961-5826

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

CG,

I agree. See, I can agree when it's the right thing to do:o)

But, dbvz did identify himself several times. His name is Dwight B. Van Zanen. He just used his initials. I dont agree with the things he said (most of them anyway), but I want him to get a fair shake.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

That is, I agree with what you said, not "little bear." I've been on this forum since it's inception and have never tried to take power over anyone. This forum is for debate - plain and simple.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

Scott, I didn't rebuke you. I rebuked the spirit of arrogance that the pastor above just commented on. I don't expect most to understand spiritual warfare, but the enemy does, and that is to whom it is directed, not you dear one. Unless you identify with that spirit, please don't feel rebuked.

Did I say that all saints should follow the world or any crowd? Or did I say that saints should be accountable to the saints? Certainly the second is what I meant to say. If I erred please forgive me. Do not follow those in the world! But submit to the saints. If you need scripture quoted for these commands of our Lord then ask, I'll be happy to oblige.

Consult any standard reference work and you will see that there are 2 Billion [of a max 6 billion world pop.] Christians. There are only 1 billion [give or take depending on the source] muslims. Christianity is the largest and most successful movement of any sort that the world has ever seen. Its also the fastest growing. Some do make the case for Islam being faster growing, but those who do conceed that it is almost entirely due to demographic expansion, not conversion. However, even here, Islam's demographic expansion [ie, due to birth] has been steadily declining for about three decades.

Facts are odd things. But as you've said, at least we can count on scriptue. What scriptures are you wanting me to quote to you? Scriptures indicating that the Lord had Daniel or Isaiah or Ezekiel or Jeremiah even Moses prophecy concerning some imminent event which the Lord also used to pertain to or indicate some later, even more important event? Lets just limit ourselves to the words of Jesus, even a single Gospel if you like. Look at Matthew. Do you really need me to quote them all to you? Just opening Matt. at random I see: 11:23, "You shall be thrown down into hell," from Is 14 or 11:29 "you shall find rest" from Jer 6. Or 10:35 and 36. See the use of Micah 7? Micah was clearly referring to his own time and life. But God was also referring through Micah to His own ministry 500 years later. Search the scriptures yourself, friend, there are much better examples than this. Friend, trust and submit to the saints, they are the Body of Christ on earth. Evangelicals [did I mention Billy Graham? the civil rights movement?] are not just the fastest growing movement in the world, they are not just the living, growing, cutting edge of the Tree of Faith which is also Eternal Life, we are the Nation of the Living God. You may be able to hold some distance from us now, but this is from the Lord: You will not be able to deny the Power the Lord's people in your life. Greater is He who is in us, thank you Jesus.

Friend, honor the second rebuke above, if not mine. Surely I myself deserve to repent of this arrogance too. Let us repent together and seek the Lord humbly. Let us also submit to one another. Surely what you have to say has strong truth, just not **all** the truth. Pray with me that Him who is all Truth continues to open our eyes. Amen. Amen, friend.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

Also, one may define Christian by some other method or standard than self-profession, arguing in effect that "not all Christians are really Christian". But this same standard must then be applied to muslims or republicans or communists, etc.... By any measure, the Lord's people are the most successful and largest movement on earth. No surprise, that is His Promise. Thank you Jesus.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

Scott

Thanks for letting me know who dbvz was (is) I had not seen that in posts I had read.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

Hello, my name is Tess Marler. I am a full-time wife and mother of three, trying to learn and grow my faith in Christ, our Savior. I initially found this site while doing some research on “Gwen Shamblin” while trying to make a decision as to whether to continue a program I had participated in. I learned a lot there in a relatively short time, and my feelings on the issue we were discussing changed somewhat as I learned and prayed. I eventually figured out how to view other forums.

Pastor White, I suspect that by your standards, I would probably qualify as a “babe in Christ,” yet I feel there is much I can learn from trying my best to follow these discussions. Respectfully, please don’t count me out. These are my thoughts regarding Little Bear's statement. What I see here is that sometimes the folks seem to insult each other personally in addition to or sometimes instead of criticizing the issue being discussed (though I have no idea if it’s intentional or not, I hope not). I find that tendency somewhat discouraging personally, and since leaving the original discussion I started at, I’ve been reading as much as I can, but have been hesitant to ask questions. I did finally ask about a doctrine I’ve learned of at church that I disagree with. Mr. Saffold quickly answered that he would help me with his response as soon as he could manage the time, and I am grateful.

I am able to follow most of the discussion of this particular thread, but I’m not familiar with the term “premil.” Thanks in advance for your help.

In His Love,

Tess Marler

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2001

Tess

I am not wanting to count anyone out. I am simply saying that "little bear" has set up a straw man to evaluate the forum by if he makes evangelism the sole criterion of this site's value. He sets up that straw man and then says I/We have failed. I did not know there was a test.

Premil means you believe the rapture precedes the millemmium. Among premils there is a difference as to whether the rapture also precedes or follows the tribulation. I think if we let Scripture speak for itself we will see that the rapture is after the tribulation.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2001

I may not agree with everything that CG White may beleive, but he is correct on the 'when' of the 'parousia'.

Most of the differing opinions today on the subject fall into the 'pre-mill' range. The aberration of the 'pre-trib' position is about 150 years old. Very few of the ECF were not futurists looking for a 'coming', 'appearing', and 'revealing' at some future time of the Christ.

Scott:

I re-post from above to comment:

Connie, Instead of starting a new subject, what is your response to the passages I quoted earlier? I have demonstrated the "Sun and Moon" statements using Scripture of same context and wording. I've done it before and you've just ignored it until it is convenient for you to raise the same questions again. Please respond to it - and do more than just say that you believe otherwise.

-- Scott Sheridan (jscott@954access.net), April 04, 2001.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have been busy with my 'real life' as opposed to my 'virtual life' but I want to respond to this. The problem is that I haven't got time yet to do it. The second problem is that I might possibly forget about it. I hope that won't be the case.

Just so you don't think I am ignoring you.

Affectionately,

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2001

Typo:

'beleive'

Correction:

'believe'

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2001

Amen "when Jesus comes back"

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2001

Scott,

I assume youa re talking about the question about the criterea used to determine what in Revelation is literal and what is symbolic.

Tough question. I'd have to think about it for a while. The book is full of symbols. The genre is apoctalyptic after all.

I've heard some peole talk about going to heaven and walking on streets of gold when they die. I really don't see how someone can sqeeze this out of the book of Revelation. This is an example, imo, of a symbol taken literally, and misapplied on top of that. John saw the New Jerusalem descend out of heaven. revelation,a nd the rest of the Bible, look forward to the resurrection. The vision of the great city appears after the resurrection.

But some talk of walking on streets of gold right after they die. Revelation mentions nothing about this city being a place for disembodied spirits. Rather, it appears after discussion of the resurrection. Paul preached the hope of the resurrection. many preachers now preach the hope of heaven. (Perhaps from the influence of extreme preterist views which denied the literal resurrection and had everyone look forward to heaven as a disembodied spirit rather than to the Biblical resurrection.)

Before John saw this city, the angel took him to see the bride. later, we see the city descend as a bride prepared for her husband. The visions seems to be a metaphor of the church. the names of apostles are even written on the building- members of the church that make up part of this building. Peter wrote of believers as lively stones, and collectively as God's building. This giant square city is the building that the bride is to become. Now, it may be both literal and figurative. There may be an actual city that descends like that, symbolic of us.

I can understand why someone would think that the 1000 years toward the end of the book might be symbolic. But is there any particular reason for assuming it is symbolic? Is there a symbolic interpretation of '1000' years as a 'code' for something else that makes sense? I don't see any reason why we should see this number as representative of any other period of time than 1000 years.

There are plenty of promises to the nation of Israel. I know some try to take all these prophecies about Israel, and 'spiritualize them' to make them apply exclusively to the church. But Romans 11 makes it clear that God still has a plan for Israel. Besides, allegoricalizing all of Israel's promises seems to make the Bible seem rather dishonest. God gave prophecies to His people in captivity about the future of their people to encourage them. If these promises wre really just allegories about the church and they would have no fulfillment in regard to the people of Israel, then would that be honest?

From what I see in the NT, allegoricizing Israel's promises like this is not consistent with the way the NT deals with OT prophecy. For example, in romans 11, Paul interpretted OT prophecy about the salvation of Israel to refer to the actual nation. In Acts 15, we read that James argued from a scripture which spoke of _nations_ being called by the name of the Lord. In that century, many Jewish rabbis would circumcise Gentiles, so that they might be a part of the community of Israel (though not with the privlidges of the Jews.) The OT did speaks of the strangers in Israel. But James quotes a verse that refers to _nations_ being called by the name of the Lord. Not just Israel being called by the name of the Lord. Gentiles didn't have to become a part of the Israeli community and become strangers among them through the rabbinical practice of circumcision and proselytization. Rather, they could remain Gentiles, physically uncircumcised, because God would call nations by His name.

James use of Scripture seems inconsistent with reinterpretting the various Israel promises to refer exclusively to the Jew-Gentile church. If he held ot replacement theology, then he could have quoted various verses about Israel to back up his arguments.

The millinialist view is very ancient. Justin Martyr thought it was the proper standard Christian view, and those who held to other views were in error. he believed that Christians would spend a thousand years in Jerusalem with the rebuilt temple, and the prophets, etc. In the 300's, amil views had gained some popularity. Augustine and Eusebius were amillinealists. But even Eusebius admitted in his _Ecclesiastical History_ that there were writings from saints in the circles associated with the apostle John that believed in a literal thousand year reign of Christ on the earth.

If someone believes that the thousand years has some symbolic meaning, I don't think that is some great heresy. Oen could hold to a nearly post-mil view and still believe that the thousand years is symbolic of something else. I do get concerned when some of the more extreme preterists deny that the rapture and resurrection will occur.

'Rapture' may be a loaded word, but in pre-mil lingo, it refers to the catching up of the saints into the air, no matter what one believes about the thousand years. Some who do not believe in the sensational chip-implant, evil cashless society say they don't believe in the 'rapture.' When milinealists hear this, it sounds like they are denying the return of Christ and the catching away of his saints, because the word 'rapture' refers to the saints being 'caught up' to meet the Lord in the air.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2001

Hi, Link,

I re-post from above to comment:

'Rapture' may be a loaded word, but in pre-mil lingo, it refers to the catching up of the saints into the air, no matter what one believes about the thousand years. ***Some who do not believe in the sensational chip-implant, evil cashless society say they don't believe in the 'rapture.'*** When millennialists hear this, it sounds like they are denying the return of Christ and the catching away of his saints, because the word 'rapture' refers to the saints being 'caught up' to meet the Lord in the air.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

May I ask how you visualize the way a modern city whose administrator is the evil last-times dictator would carry out the practice of being unable to buy or sell without his 'mark'?

Because 'Mystery Babylon' will be just that ~ a modern, computerized city built in 'Shinar' which is in Iraq.

Perhaps you would be interested in the following site:

http://pub24.ezboard.com/fendtimebiblicaldiscussionsfrm1

This forum moderator takes the post-trib, pre-wrath position, but there are people there who take all different positions, and he lets them post. He DOES insist on civility or a spirit of Christian forbearance.

This is not the site I showed before [ www.tip.org ].

Another good one is:

www.signministries.org

Respectfully,

Connie

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2001

Link,

Ps 50:10 says, "For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills." Does this mean that on hill #1001, the cattle belong to Joe Schmoe? No, the number 1000 is used symbolically to represent the whole, not used as a literal number.

Peter says, "But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day." II Peter 3:8. Does this mean that God cannot tell time? No, the context is patience and that God uses the whole of time, not just our little part of it.

There is contextual example of the number 1000 being used figuratively. No, it is not a "code." The number 1000 is used to represent the whole of something whether it be cattle, or years.

I understand the 1000 years of Rev 20 to be symbolic of the entire Church age, which is close to 1970 years old. I'm sure you'll want to discuss this further, and that's alright, I will.

Let me cut to the bone here. I believe that when Jesus comes back, that instant is when the separation of the righteous and wicked takes place. Those who have died in the faith, are with Jesus already, and those who will be living at His coming will meet Him in the air, and in the twinkling of an eye will be changed into their new bodies, at the same time the righteous dead will receive their new bodies. The old heavens and earth will be burned and those with Jesus will be placed in their new eternal home and the unrighteous will never be seen or heard from again (Hell).

I call the idea of a secret rapture "comic book Christianity." Lots of intrigue and villainous plots, but not very realistic when you place it beside the reality of Scripture in context.

A lot was said while I was out of town and then catching up (for being out of town)so this is all I'll respond to for now.

Connie, I'm still waiting for a response to the sun and moon passages.

timphronesia, give me Scripture, not head counts. And what makes you think Michael is arrogant. I may not have chosen his words but I agree with what he said - no arrogance anywhere to be found. Also, no one seems to be answering his question (except Link).

BTW, I watched the video "Left Behind" last night. I heard more misquoted Scripture in that movie than Satan quoted when tempting Jesus. Subtle misquotes, but misquotes nonetheless. Why would they feel they must rewrite the Word of God? Could it be that the Scriptures didn't support their theories? Hmmmm. And I dont just mean the theories of pre, mid, or post. The whole premil premise wreaks. I will not allow my children to watch it or read the books.

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2001

Excellent argument, Scott!

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2001

Excellent argument, Scott!!

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2001

Link, you said, "But Romans 11 makes it clear that God still has a plan for Israel." I do not disagree, but just who exactly is Israel? Actually this should be another thread, maybe you could start one in answering.

Since you mentioned Romans, lets start there: Rom 2:25-29, "For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God." Did you get that? The Jew is one inwardly and circumcism is a matter of the heart. Jews are those that have the FAITH of Abraham, not the FLESH of Abraham.

Rom 4:1-18 (Too long to post so look it up). Rom 8:14-17 Rom 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants."

Again, it is not those of the flesh who are Israel (descendants).

Rom 11:16-31 (look it up) Gal 3:26-29 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise."

Gal 6:14-18 In this passage Paul calls the Church "the Israel of God"

Phil 3:2-4 The Church is "the true circumcision."

The eternal promise of God to Abraham was and is for those with the FAITH of Abraham, not his flesh. Premilism, at it's core, still has the Hebrew people as God's chosen. That is wrong. The Church is God's people, which is the Israel of God, the true circumcision, the descendants of Abraham. A Hebrew person can become one of God's chosen by becoming a Christian, just as Peter, a Jew, told other Jews they must do on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:37 & 38).

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2001

I re-post from above:

Connie, I'm still waiting for a response to the sun and moon passages.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Can you be more specific?

There are many references to signs in the sun, moon, and stars, and all of them I have seen refer to the end times.

Give me several references and I'll give my interpretations.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Scott, I see you did reference certain passages. I have printed them out to study.

As for the answer to the question of the thread, the conclusion of the long, 'Parousia' post condenses it quite well:

At best, all that can be said about the time interval between the beginning and the end of the Lord's parousia, is that it will be a single event no less than six months (the fifth trumpet judgment will last five months [Rev. 9:5] and Armageddon occurs at the end of the 30 day reclamation period [Dan. 12:11]), and no more than two to three years (the time necessary to accomplish all the trumpet and bowl judgments of God's wrath once the great tribulation is cut short by Christ's parousia in the second half of Daniel's 70th Week).

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It will occur at the point just before the pouring out of the seven bowls or vials of wrath, (3 1/2 years; 42 months; 1260 days; 'one hour' of the evil one's reign ~ all referring to the same period of the tribulation, which Christians will go through), not be taken out as the fictional 'Left Behind' series avers, before the tribulation period. [Matthew 29: 32-35]

Then the events will continue until Christ returns with His army of saints (all also on white horses) to end the rebellion at Armageddon. His feet will touch down at the Mount of Olives and then He will enter in at the Eastern gate, which opening is awaiting His triumphal return.

My life has been spiraling into chaos and back (really just too busy), so that is why I have not gotten back to this.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001