Y2K-related problems and the pharmaceutical industry? More predicted coincidences?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Grassroots Information Coordination Center (GICC) : One Thread

Carl Jenkins posted a thread on GICC on March 30, 2001 entitled:

Anesthesia drug shortage shrinks margin of safety


The article posted was wideranging and mentioned other shortages beyond anesthesia.

This is one of a growing number of threads on problems in the pharmaceutical industry, problems of a sort that were predicted prior to January 1, 2000.

A summary of observations by an engineer in January of 2001 may well shed light on the root causes of some of the problems that are becoming evident in the pharmaceutical industry, not to mention other sectors. The summary is a result of an exchange I had with an engineer who has direct knowledge of IT and embedded control system problems in the field. Here is a excerpt from the summary:

"I said that I have been hearing about shortages in the pharmaceutical industry and asked (the engineer) if he thought this might be related to (Y2K-related) problems (involving) manufacturing processes. He said that there are manufacturing problems and that too many bugs have slowed manufacturing processes. He added that there is a major shortage of computer components and that the parts that are available are often parts that have been put back in stock even though they do not work. He said he has found the same to be the case when it comes to other technology companies and parts vendors...."

~ From 1/30/2001 Summary of an Engineer's Observations Regarding the Status of Ongoing Y2K-Related Embedded Systems and Complex Integrated Systems Problems Compiled by Paula Gordon (With a minor revision made 2/1/2001)

Note: The Summary of an Engineer's Observations..." is now posted at http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ey2k/keypeople/gordon/EngObs.html The summary focuses on problems of the sort that were predicted prior to the January 1, 2000 rollover have been occurring in a wide range of sectors. This summary of observations of an engineer provides abundant clues concerning the possible causes of problems that are evident in the energy sector and in other sectors as well.

-- Paula Gordon (pgordon@erols.com), March 31, 2001


I think we are all beginning to get a clearer picture on current Y2K related problems. The prediction that has won out so far is the one indicating a slower playing out of events over a longer period of time, thank God. This means we still have time to make corrections hopefully without catastrophic consequences (I do not mean to underplay the dire circumstances many people find themselves in right now due to our energy and economic problems). I cannot remember in the navy report how they predicted this slower process playing out. Does anyone else remember? What are the possible long term effects of this scenario?

-- JP Thomas (y2kids@y2kids.net), April 01, 2001.

Fifteen months past the non-event rollover and I see Paula Gordon is still beating the same alarmist drum with these supposed quotes from unnamed sources.

Fifteen months later, is there a single named expert or a single verifable y2k disruption???? If so, post it here or quit this ongoing denial nonsense.

-- Gordon Paul (GordonPaul@hotmail.com), April 01, 2001.

Dear Mr. Paul,

I can well understand the basis for your comments. The best and shortest response to your questions about sources is a simple one:

Speaking on the record about continuing problems can mean risking one's livelihood and opening oneself up ridicule as well as possible legal action. Not only does this deter people from talking on the record, it deters them from speaking off the record. Consider the difficulties that whistleblowers have had historically. Persons who speak on the record can find themselves similarly vulnerable.

I have offered longer explanations concerning the difficulties involved in surfacing the full story in several places.

As regards specific problems, I have attached URLs that will led you to a numerous sources of more detailed information.

Here is a 3/31/2001 posting of mine that I hope might prove helpful. It can be found at

http://pub5.ezboard.com/fyourdontimebomb2000.showMessage? topicID=27534.topic&index=7

3/31/2001 posting

..There are some in the private sector who decided to "fix on failure". There are also some who only applied temporary fixes or did not remediate fully or carefully. There are also reasons why the public is relatively unaware that there are those in the private sector who have been "fixing on failure" and those who have been having problems. In addition, there are reasons why information about what is going on is not being widely shared. I try to address some of these issues in an April 12, 2000 presentation that I am attaching here.

The fact is that the kinds of problems that a number of Y2K analysts predicted would occur have occurred and are occurring. Impacts of these predicted coincidences are being felt in many different sectors. The Grassroots Information Coordination Center website at http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Grassroots% 20Information%20Coordination%20Center%20%28GICC%29 continues to include such problems in its focus.

I hope you find the following of interest.

Summary of a Slide Presentation ~ April 12, 2000 GW Panel Program on Y2K & Embedded Systems greenspun.com : LUSENET : Grassroots Information Coordination Center (GICC) : One Thread


The following is a summary of a slide presentation that I gave at a panel program on Y2K on April 12, 2000. The topic of the program was "Y2K: What Happened and What Has Been Happening Since January 1?" A video of all of the panel presentations can be seen at www.stuarthrodman.com/video.htm Additional information concerning the panel and other presentations and programs can be found at www.gwu.edu/~y2k/keypeople/gordon. I hope it may prove helpful to those trying to sort out some of the "unsolved mysteries" of the Y2K story.

Summary of Slide Presentation by Paula Gordon Given at an April 12, 2000 Panel Program at GW University Entitled "Y2K: What Happened and What Has Been Happening Since January 1, 2000?"

Topic Outline:

I. Some Problems in Obtaining Information Concerning Y2K-Related Problems

II. Some Mainstream Sources (or Potential Sources) of Information

III. A Basis for Making a Case That Y2K Problems Have Occurred and Are Continuing to Occur

IV. Reasons for the Use of Anonymous or Unnamed Sources

V. Why We Are Likely to Know More Soon

VI. The Need to Understand That Embedded Systems Failures and Malfunctions Can Occur or Become Evident at Different Times

VII. Some Sources of Information of Potential Interest

I. Some Problems in Obtaining Information Concerning Y2K-Related Problems

1) There is information that has not yet been made available.

2) Some of the information that is available is lacking in details and/or is impossible or difficult to trace or verify.

3) Some information was made available only briefly owing to proprietary concerns or for other reasons such as lack of funding.

4) Some information is accessible but may be very difficult to find.

5) Some information is in a form that makes it difficult to use. 6) Some information may require special direct requests.

II. Some Mainstream.Sources (or Potential Sources) of Information

~ The Information Coordination Center (ICC)

~ The International Y2K Coordination Center (IY2KCC)

~ Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC)

~ Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)

~ Chemical Safety Board

~ State of California

III. A Basis for Making a Case That Y2K Problems Have Occurred and Are Continuing to Occur

What basis might there be for concluding that problems that are occurring are Y2K-related?

If problems in question meet the following criteria, there is a basis for at least tentatively concluding that the problems could be Y2K- or embedded systems-related:

1) High Number of Problems:

An usually high number of problems in a specific sector having no readily identifiable causes and/or having causes that could be Y2K- or embedded systems related

2) Number of Problems in a Specific Sector is Higher Than Prior Years:

The number of problems occurring in 2000 exceeds the number of problems that occurred during comparable periods of time in prior years

3) Patterns or Similarities in Current Problems:

The problems occurring during 2000 have patterns in common and have similarities not found in problems that occurred in prior years. In addition, the problems that have been occurring are typically associated with Y2K- or embedded systems-related problems.

4) The Problems That Are Occurring Were of a Kind that Were Predicted or Expected:

The problems occurring in 2000 were anticipated or predicted or regarded as being possible or likely consequences of Y2K- or embedded systems-related failures or malfunctions.

If all of these criteria are met, then there is a likelihood that the problems are Y2K- or embedded systems-related. Such problems can at least be regarded as falling under the heading of "Predicted Coincidences".

In Other Words:

When it can be established that there has been a higher than usual number of problems in a specific sector, including problems that either have no readily identifiable cause or problems that could conceivably have a Y2K- or embedded systems-related cause;

when, in addition, a comparison of current problems with problems that occurred during the same time frame in previous years reveals patterns or similarities that are not apparent in problems that have occurred in prior years;

when such patterns or similarities either indicate or do not exclude the possibility of Y2K- or embedded systems-related causes; and

when the kinds of problems that are occurring now are the same kinds of problems that were expected to result from Y2K- or embedded systems related failures or malfunctions;

then there is a likelihood that the problems are Y2K- or embedded systems-related.

Such problems can at least be characterized as "Predicted Coincidences".

IV. Reasons for the Use of Anonymous or Unnamed Sources

There are many people who are in a position to provide needed information or expertise concerning Y2K and embedded systems who feel little, if any inclination to do so. In their minds, the disincentives to being forthcoming concerning problems or issues relating to Y2K- and embedded systems- related problems may far outweigh any possible incentives. The following is a list of some major reasons that individuals may refrain from speaking out or may request anonymity when they do:

~ Fear of losing a job, jeopardizing a contract, or otherwise adversely affecting one's career or business

~ Liability concerns or fear of litigation

~ Fear of other possible consequences or reprisals

~ Existence of Non-Disclosure Agreements preventing the sharing of proprietary information

~ Organizational or peer pressure

~ Political pressure

~ A desire to avoid controversy

~ The existence of a climate that can prove hostile to people who are candid about sensitive or controversial Y2K- and embedded systems- related concerns

For some of these and other reasons, it has been necessary for me to promise anonymity to a number of sources who have provided me information.

V. Why We Are Likely to Know More Soon

~ Quarterly Reports

~ End of Fiscal Year Reports

~ Market Analyses

~ SEC Filings

~ Insurance Claims

~ Quarterly and Annual Reports of Insurance Companies and Reinsurers

~ Law Suits, including any of the following:

- Directors and Officers, vendors, manufacturers, contractors, insurance companies, or other businesses

- Whistleblowing Cases

- Dismissed Employees Suing Employers

VI. The Need to Understand That Embedded Systems Failures and Malfunctions Can Occur at Different Times

Some examples include :

~ Buffer Overflow-Related Problems

~ Function Overflow-Related Problems

~ Problems Triggered by Annual Maintenance Scheduling

~ Epoch Date-Related Problems

For some background on the first three, see the appendices focusing on embedded systems concerns in "John Koskinen's Responses to Questions from Paula Gordon: March 22, 2000" at www.gwu.edu/~keypeople/gordon/Q&A.html.

VII. Some Sources of Information of Potential Interest

~ Final Senate Report

~ March 29, 2000 Final Report of the Presidents Council

~ January 17 Comments and Impact Ratings by Paula Gordon http://www.gwu.edu/~keypeople/gordon

~ John Koskinen's Responses to Questions from Paula Gordon: March 22, 2000 http://www.gwu.edu/~keypeople/gordon/Q&A.html

~ Proceedings of the January 24 - 25, 2000 Y2K Assessment Conference Sponsored by the Center for Global Security Research, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

~ Grassroots Information Coordination Center

~ Glitch Central at http://www.ciaosystems.com/GlitchCentralGuts.htm >

For URLs not indicated, see

~ the reference list in http://www.gwu.edu/~keypeople/gordon/Q&A.html and

~ the references in the January 17 Comments and Rating piece at http://www.gwu.edu/~y2k/keypeople/gordon.

End of 3/31/2001 posting


As for information concerning specific problems, you may wish to search the GICC archives. A list of GICC and other references are posted below. I hope to be posting an updated list of these and other references soon at http://www.gwu.edu/~y2k/keypeople/gordon

The following URL is for a website that is focusing on Y2K problems: http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Y2K%20discussion% 20group For the pass word, send a request to spiderO@usa.net

Here are some other references and URLs. For hot links go to http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=004J6Y Y2K Bug: The Year 2000 in review greenspun.com : LUSENET : Y2K discussion group : One Thread

---------------------------------------------------------------------- The most under reported story in the year 2000 is the effect of the Y2K bug on systems in this country and around the world. Thanks to GICC and its many posters for providing information that would only be found in local papers. There were a lot of stories that had solid Y2K relationships and maybe 20 times that many that were only in the probable or possible category. Here is a partial list of stories that can be stated to be in the solid category from the last half of this year.

OK - Computer problems halt funds

Factory Shutdown blamed on Y2K bug

Hershey Foods Corp. Seeks New CEO

OR: Portland billing glitch flows downhill

OH: City resumes water shut-off notices

WI: Schools plan to drop Ameritech

TX: County comtemplates lawsuit over computers

OH - $5,000 Y2K glitch hits timeclock

MO: Thousands of Jackson County property tax statements incorrect

CEO: SAP Installation Caused Problems

MI: Computer woes a glitch

NV: DMV to get more armed guards

Fl: City may ditch Munis software

GA - City's technology head resigns

OK: Low Funds Caused By Computer Glitches

Ohio: Agencies' Y2K haste makes waste

WA - Audit finds errors cost sheriff's office $170k in lost grants

Sante Fe: PNM blamed for water-billing errors And these are widespread problems with police departments not being able to arrest someone based on their computer read-out.

Michigan Cops confounded by computer glitches

WA: Computer's flaws stymie police And this from the State University of New York.

SUNY blames Y2K for release of student loan files And this tax problem in Spokane

The deadline looms And this from Australia

AU: INCIS Doomed To Failure And in September . . .

Harvard University [Mass]: Y2K upgrade problems

NJ: Computer Glitch Forces Nursing Home To File For Chapter 11 Bankruptcy and in August . . .

NV - Computer Glitches Hold Up Child-Welfare Checks

Spokane: Y2K problem: Health district failed to collect $190,000

Clay County in danger of flunking audit

E.Goshen Twnshp, PA y2k billing error and in July . . .

Glitch delays property tax bills

People Soft upgrade alleviates U. Minnesota problems

That Y2K Bug Ain't Dead Yet These are recent posts in the Y2K discussion group

NM: Medical Lab Recovering From Rough Start

Alberta: U of A promises to find answers for computer woes

CO: Fiscal fix has big costs for city

N.Y. Court Rules Against Xerox on Y2K Insurance Coverage These stories are in the probable category.

MI: State cancels contract to expand child support computer system

AK: UAMS chief cites progress on billing, collection problems

AU: Big jump in power industry complaints

AZ: St. Joe's offers workers buyouts

Alaska Airlines maintenance software failure The big story of this month is that the Alaska Airline jet that went down in January of 2000 was due to have its horizontal stabilizer replaced in December of 1999. The new maintenance software installed failed to notify the maintenance workers of the need to change the part until 3 days after the crash. The FAA has been checking the maintenance software of all the airlines to make sure that the problem isn't widespread. Here is the possible Y2K connection to planes falling out of the sky, trains derailing and other disasters that are caused by parts that had not been changed expediently. Here is a link to some graphs on nuclear SCRAMs and refinery capacity. The oil graphs were done by L. Cassels Hunter.

Nuclear power SCRAMs graph and Oil capacity graph

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), December 28, 2000

Answers And here are some businesses that had Y2K problems

Whirlpool to Cut Up to 6,300 Jobs

Beverly Enterprises posts net loss in quarter

Owens Corning Files for Bankruptcy Protection Owens Corning has commenced a Declaratory Judgment action against Factory Mutual Insurance Co. and six other carriers in Delaware Superior Court (Approx. March 17), seeking coverage for Y2K remediation costs under two all-risks policies. The amount sought is unknown but quarterly statements from Owens Corning suggests that it spent some $160 million in Y2K remediation between 1995 and 1999.


ConnectiCare, Inc.

England: Y2K to blame for Compel profit slump

Informix relates Y2K troubles

Hartco Corporation Reports

Hershey Foods Licks Computer Woes

TransNet Reports

Whirlpool whipped by Prudential

Programmer's Paradise, Inc. Reports

ILOG Reports

AZ: 'Trib' circulation drops from Y2K billing delays

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), December 29, 2000. Here is an excerpt from an ezboard posting that might be of interest.

Subject: Re: Where have all the y2k'ers gone? Posted By: yourdon (ezOP) Posted At: 12/28/00 8:32:28 pm From IP: Seraphima,

I think most of us are still here -- though, like you, we've moved on and gotten involved in other activities during the past year. Can you imagine what the rollover would have been like last year if we had all been trying to cope with this freakish weather in addition to everything else?

BTW, someone posted an interesting URL on my "TYR" discussion forum (www.egroups.com/group/TYR) that discusses the possibility of additional Y2K-related hardware failures in certain kinds of desktop PC's. I had not seen it before, and can't vouch for its accuracy, but it might be interesting for folks to peek at; it's located at www.pcprofile.com/1yrlife.htm

Cheers, Ed ______________________________________________________________________ Here are some references thru April or May of 2000 from GICC: Nuclear Power Sector: for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003Vyr Energy Sector - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003VxC Energy Sector postings - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003Vyf Brazil Oil Spill: for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003VzX Railway incidents - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003Vzi Australian aviation fuel problem - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003Vzp Y2K Malfunctions in Nuke Plants - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W00 Explosions and Fires Summary - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W0O Venezuelan and other energy sector problems - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W04 Energy Sector concerns - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W0K Insurance and legal concerns - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W09 Plant and pipeline explosions - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W0A Airplane related concerns - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W0G International glitches - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W0Z Senate Y2K Committee Report 2/29/2000 for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W2r Oil accidents and problems - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W2v Refinery problems contributing to spike in fuel prices - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W3H Oil sector and railroad derailments - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W35 Pipeline breaks - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W8b Oil Refinery Concerns - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003Vze Airline Sector Postings for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003VzL

Manhole cover explosions - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W9L Energy sector items - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W9U Miscellaneous sources of information re Y2K - for the archives http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003W9N

-- Paula Gordon (pgordon@erols.com), April 01, 2001.

Mr. Paul,

I should also clarify the nature of my current concerns. They are not, as one might assume, identical to my pre-rollover concerns. I had predicted prior to January 1, 2000 that the ultimate impact of Y2K over time would be between a 5.5 and 9.5 on the Y2K impact scale. I wrote that the outcome would be dependent on the extent to which the public and private sector succeeded in remediating IT systems and embedded systems.

I have posted numerous statements during 2000 through the present in which I have reflected on what happened and what is continuing to happen. Many of these statement can be found at the following website: http://www.gwu.edu/~y2k/keypeople/gordon The Q&A piece with John Koskinen, the Impact Statement from January 17, 2000; and the summary of the April 12, 2000 presentation are examples of such statements.

I believe that as of the end of the first quarter of 2001 that we are at a 4 on the Y2K impact scale. I also think that it is possible that we could be at a 7 by April of 2002. I do not think there is any danger of worst case scenarios arising. In my view, those scenarios would only have occurred if there had been simultaneous breakdowns and immediately cascading impacts that included major disasters such as Bhopal and Chernobyl-type catastrophes. That possibility passed during the first quarters of 2000.

The reasons that I think Y2K and embedded systems problems continues to be a topic that warrants continuing attention include the following:

~ In order to address problems effectively, it is imperative that the underlying causes of those problems be identified and addressed. To use a medical analogy, if you had pneumonia and you were treated instead for a cold, a near term cure would be unlikely.

~ In order to formulate sound policy, it is essential that the nature and scope of challenges, threats, and problems be understood as fully as possible. To do otherwise is to base policy on insufficient understanding. The resulting policies are not going to be relevant to what is actually happening.

~ In order to maximize the billions of dollars invested in addressing Y2K and Y2K-related embedded system challenges and threats, the efforts that were begun need to be completed and adequately monitored. In addition, ongoing problems need to be addressed whether publicly or without public visibility.

The Federal government has long since ceased monitoring Y2K and even when it was actively engaged in monitoring Y2K-related concerns, did so utilizing insufficient technical expertise. (No one at the Information Coordination Center had embedded control system expertise. No one on the President's Council staff had technical expertise. No one at the Department of Energy who had embedded control systems expertise was charged with looking at Y2K-related energy sector problems of the kind that the International Energy Agency had predicted. No one at the Office of Pipeline Safety of the Department of Transportation, the Environmental Protection Agency, the Chem Safety Board, or the National Transportation Safety Board who has the needed expertise has been focusing attention on identifying, assessing, monitoring, and addressing Y2K-related problems that have been occurring since January 1, 2000.

One of the major reasons that the vast majority of people think that the problem was relatively speaking, a non-problem is that with the exception of the Grassroots Information Coordinating Center, there are few sources of public information that retain a focus on the topic. This in turn is a result of the ICC's premature "declaration of victory" and the ICC's effective early termination of even the insufficient efforts that it had in place through early January 2000. From the outset, the majority of those in the media had trouble comprehending the most complicated aspects of Y2K and embedded systems concerns. The media seemed to assume that ICC knew what it was doing and did not question the ICC's actions. The public assumed that surely the media would track ongoing problems if there were any problems to report. The public also apparently assumed that surely ICC's efforts were informed by adequate technical expertise.

To get a sense of what has been occurring, one need only look at year 2000 data compared with data from prior years, data concerning the incidence of technological disasters and accidents, pipeline problems and explosions, nuclear power plant scrams, power plant problems, refinery problems, etc., etc. in the year 2000 as compared with prior years. (I hope that any one who wants the active links of the GICC archives will feel free to e-mail me and request a copy. I also hope to post active links to reference material on past, ongoing, and current problems on my website.)

Of notable concern is the fact that all of the problems that have been occurring, including energy sector shortfalls and problems and economic downturns, were of the sort that were predicted.

From my vantage point, while Y2K and embedded systems have by no means the only causes of such shortfalls and problems, Y2K-related problems have played a predicted role. They have been a contributing factor to the problems that we are seeing.

The scenario that I presently see unfolding is not a worst case scenario. It is nonetheless worthy of attention and concern.

For a wide variety of reasons, few of those who predicted that the present scenario could unfold by this quarter of 2001 are continuing to focus any of their attention on Y2K, or at least are no longer sharing their perspectives publicly.

Note concern the impact scale referred to in this posting: The impact scale is described in Part 1 of my White Paper at http://www.gwu.ed/~y2k/keypeople/gordon Here is the version of that scale that I was citing:

0 No real impact

1 Local impact for some enterprises

2 Significant impact for many enterprises

3 Significant market adjustment (20%+ drop); some bankruptcies

4 Economic slowdown; rise in unemployment; isolated social incidents

5 Mild recession; isolated supply/infrastructure problems; runs on banks

6 Strong recession; local social disruptions; many bankruptcies

7 Political crises; regional supply/infrastructure problems, disruptions

8 Depression; infrastructure crippled; markets collapse; local martial law

9 Supply/infrastructure collapse; widespread disruptions, martial law

10 Collapse of US government; possible famine

-- Paula Gordon (pgordon@erols.com), April 02, 2001.

For a more readable list of GICC archival references and a list that is hot linked see

http://pub5.ezboard.com/fyourdontimebomb2000.showMessage? topicID=27649.topic&index=10

-- Paula Gordon (pgordon@erols.com), April 03, 2001.

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