according to the Mirror is false

PFA chairman in favour of gulty clubs being deducted points.

Were going down if this happens

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2001

Answers

Is it just me, or does anyone else think Gordon Taylor is a stunted, little fat git who is serving absolutely no useful purpose on this planet?

I raised this possibility of points deduction on here a couple of weeks ago Pete, and was drowned in derision. If it happens I'll be striking the first match for Nobby's pyre!

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2001

The time elapsing from it first emerging and now makes me think that there will not be any points reduction if proven . Hell of a decision to make as the season draws to a close.

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2001

My passport is genuine. Nobby can use that if his is a bit dodgy.

Surely, if his passport is false, then it is not NUFC's fault. They can not be held responsible. I mean, it must be canny good, as he's used it an awful lot of times to come and go for Peru matches. If he has a false passport, he should be punished not the club. Unless.............nah, they wouldn't do that, would they?

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2001

They'll deduct points if we win today. The top half of the table has ceased to be interesting so they have to do something to pep up the "product". It's just like having a shooting in a soap-opera to make life more interesting. Hopefully Keegan will step out of the shower in a minute and we'll find that it is January 1997 still and it has all been a dream. I'll have more hair, Jonno can say TIWY without being laughed at and this will be the communicata site. Phew.

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2001

My passport is genuine.

ILet's wait till you get back into this country before we jump to any conclusions there Screach.

IF Nobby's passport is illegal and if points are to be deducted, then I want to see several Home Office employees sacked for letting him into this country time after time on a false passport. If they can't do their jobs properly, I don't see how a football club can be expected to do it for them.

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2001

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The FA can't fine us points. They didn't with Derby last year and so how can they change the rules? They may try but it won't stand up in court. Divvent Panic.

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2001

I can`t believe that they could deduct points from us - fine the Club maybe, or fine Nobby - but deducting points would be totally unfair.

BTW I agree with you Clarky about Gordon Taylor.(:o(

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2001

WE'D BETTER BLOODY HOPE SO!

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2001

Look guys - Nobby is an international so the passport rule is a mere incidental. on emore game for Peru - renew the visa and its OK anyway - he can use his Peru passport.

If we're going to sell him for loads of dosh then this needs sorting.

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2001

Again, from my Auntie:

Three South American footballers have been banned from entering France for two years after being found guilty of using falsely obtained European passports.

Colombian Farid Mondragon, Chilean Pablo Contreras and Argentinian Emiliano Romay were also fined by the court in Paris.

The prosecutions are the first to result from a probe into the widespread use of fake paperwork which has rocked European football.

Mondragon managed to obtain a Greek passport to secure a move to First Division club Metz.

While Contreras and Romay got their hands on Italian passports to win transfers to Monaco and Nice, respectively.

The passports enabled them to get around European Union rules which limit the number of foreigners clubs can field.

The players told the court that they had been unaware that their passports were false and insisted their attempts to establish European parentage had nothing to do with football.

The prosecution said their explanations were "evasive, and in no way believable" and that investigations were underway to find the organisers of the passport scam.

Mondragon is the only one of the trio still playing in France and was the only one present at the hearing.

The three players had all previously been investigated by the French Football League (LNF) before civil legal action was taken.

The French passport affair first came to light following the Saint Etienne-Toulouse First Division match last December when Toulouse officials queried the stated nationality of Brazilian striker Alex.

When his Portuguese passport was subsequently found to be fraudulently obtained, a nationwide investigation ensued and other cases were uncovered including the three South Americans.

St Etienne have since been docked seven points by football authorities while Monaco have lost two.

Mondragon received no sanction from the LNF at his hearing on 6 February after co-operating with authorities.

But Contreras and Romay both received four-month league bans.

Police are currently investigating the authenticity of passports belonging to all 78 foreign footballers playing in the French First and Second Divisions.

There are also on-going investigations in Britain, Italy, Spain and Portugal.

Investigators believe there has been a large scale blackmarket trade in false paperwork allowing overseas players to obtain European passports in order to boost their chances of a lucrative move to the continent.

Football clubs in Europe are only allowed to field three non-EU players.

I don't like that bit in bold. Bliddy frogs.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

good thing we haven't fielded 3 non-EU players at the same time this season then!

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

This is precisely the point I've been making all along Screach, but everyone already knows all the answers.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

But what I fail to undestand Clarky is why the club should be punished for a mistake by an individual. If the immigration authorities felt his passport was legal enough to allow him into the country, who are the club to question that?

Now, had the club been complicit in acquiring any false passport, that is a different matter. All along, my view was such. But now the Frogs have deducted points for similar offences as those alleged in UK, I'm not so sure. Surely this is placing the onus too much on the club and not the player. If a player has done something wrong, then he should be punnished (unless, say he plays for LUFC).

In this case, the club may lose out in the end as the player might have to leave. But punishing the club up front would be wrong.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

On the surface that's a reasonable position Screacher, but you're making several assumptions.
We don't know what degree of complicity there has been from the Clubs in question - my guess, in relation to the PL, is that this is highly unlikely. However, in general in business the onus is on the Company to carry out all necessary due diligence to ensure themselves there is no breach of the law in a whole variety of situations.
How effectively the Company has discharged its legal responsibilities, and indeed documented what they have done, will I suspect ultimately determine how culpable any Club has been.
I don't believe this situation is at all clear-cut, and every individual situation will need to be thoroughly investigated.
Of course, The Toon's management & administration is so demonstrably impeccable that I'm sure we have nothing at all to worry about.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Thank you. So if you were chariman of a company and employed a non-Brit, you would be responsible for checking his passport and hence eligibility to work? And, if the passport looked genuine in all senses (because it was issued by a genuine passport authority), would you still have further reponsibilities to check if the employee had got the "genuine" passport nder false pretences?

Just wonderin'.

Oh - you can take your tongue out of your chhek now!

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2001

Screacher,

When you are talking about pro footy Clubs importing players from South America where there is a clear history of fraudulent passport scams, then the answer to your question is simply yes, absolutely - and a failure to do so could well be construed as complicity, IMHO.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

But not if it is a genuine passport obtained illegally. NUFC or any employer would have to accept what was given to them. If they took the PP to the country concerned and they said it was genuine end of their "duty of care". I do not think that they would have the legal power to ask for the paperwork used to get the passport, unless they arranged it.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

Well, if that's the case Clarky, I'm glad I'm on my side of the fence. As Guster says, if it is a genuine passport, how can you find if the maens to get it was false. "Nobby, did you lie when you applied for your passport?" "Non, niet. Eeessa genwin". "Thank you - would £1M a year plus bonues be acceptable?"................

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

On last try gang.
Senor Nolberto Solano rolls up at the Park Avenue Hilton Hotel for transfer negotiations, and you get to "Work Permit Qualifications" on your check-list. You ask him how come he has a Greek passport? Nolberto, he say "nee probs man, me Grandma was Greek, like!"

Do you think you might do a little more checking before you hand over over 2.5 million used singles in a black Adidas duffle-bag?

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

So you're assuming NUFC contract negotiators are smarter than immigration occifers? Yes, perhaps they should have asked the questions, but whether they are legally bound to question a legal document from another country..................

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

......................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzh!
;-{|

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

Yes tiresome I know clarky, however the only people you have to convince is the issuing authority.

Whether or not NUFC should morally check the details is a moot point. Legally I do not believe they have to, or in fact CAN do it.

We have problems here when people turn up with real passports as opposed to fake or alterted ones. The fake/altered holders are sent back on the next flight, the ones on real ones, even though we know that the PP is not theirs or legally obtained we have to detain them and get the info from the Gov. concerned.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

That being the case gus, I'm not gonna tell you when I'll be back from Sth America & Spain - I've heard you've got a funny sense of humour and can't risk not being let into the country. All me mates might miss me

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001

Shirley they both wont miss you?

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2001

and there was me thinking I only had the one imaginary mate. And stop calling me Shirley ...

"What's the vector Victor ?"

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2001

Clarky, Nobby obtained his Greek passport AFTER we had employed him. He was signed with a Peruvian passport and a valid work permit was obtained. So the scenario is that Nobby said "heh, no need to renew my permit as I'm now Greek". "Fair enough" say NUFC.

Worst case is if NUFC asked him to obtain an EU identity. Sad thing about this is that a permit application would have been successful ... and maybe that will save us!

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2001

Juan Domingo Pinieri, agent of Peruvian International Nolberto Solano, confirmed that his client received an offer from Italian side Parma: 'Solano reached an agreement with Newcastle to renew his contract. However, he received offers from various clubs: Parma, another Italian side, Barcelona and also Real Madrid, who asked information on the player some time ago'. Solano, 26, is a right winger and he should be the one to replace Conceicao, linked with Juventus.

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2001