Travis noted in the "kids... life in prison" thread that we'd strayed rather far off topic. I think it's because this forum, unlike more mature ones, hasn't really delved into many political issues.

Is it ever a good idea to discuss politics on Internet forums? (fora) Can it be done without flame wars? Can you tell by a person's non-political posts where they stand politically? Are you ever surprised to find out about an Internet acquaintances political beliefs?

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2001

Answers

I think it's ok to discuss (as well as religion), but everyone needs to understand that we all have different opinions and you can't expect everyone to think your beliefs and/or opinions are the correct ones. A lot of people are so one-sided and can't see beyond that.

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2001

Some topics just incite a lot of passion and it is easy to "stray" off a topic, feel attacked or righteous... While these forums can be great fun, it is hard to always read between the lines and some ideas/points lose something in the translation. I am ALWAYS surprised to find out someone's opinion if, formerly, I thought they were funny or cool and THEN they say or write something that makes me do a double-take (i.e., totally diff than my beliefs). There is this part of me, however, that LOVES a great debate... apathy about big issues drives me crazier than snarling with someone over abortion rights or assisted suicide... just don't be condescending, dismissive or nasty. If you have a point to make, a belief to share, something to say - say it; nastiness is just a cover up for a weak argument or a poorly thought out argument. IMO.

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2001

I don't know if it can be done without flame wars, but I LOVE discussions of Sticky Subjects like politics, religion, sexism, childrearing, philosophy, organizations like Promise Keepers, personal beliefs.... I enjoy the process of *really thinking* about what I believe and why, and I love having those beliefs challenged and having my mind opened by others' points of view. My early memories involve my Great-Gram (D) and my Grandpa (R) just going at it over this or that political topic at the dinner table. To an outsider, it might sound like they were bitterest enemies... but a heady political debate was their idea of a good time, and they really respected each other's opinions. My immediate family is all strong- minded and opinionated (no, really), so having debates (and I don't mean screaming fights, I mean healthy debates) is a way of life for us. Same with me and The Husband-Type Man... we love debating, say, "should classes be bilingual?" or "should underaged girls seeking abortions have their parents informed?"... and, like, just goin' at it with the hypothetical questions or the "Okay, just to play devil's advocate"s or the "that's a fallacy!" shit. We generally perceive and process info very differently from each other, so it's always interesting to see a totally different point of view... even if the end result is almost the same.

I'm constantly surprised when threads about ____ or ____ turn into flame wars, because I so enjoy the process of seeing debates and discussion develop... it would be boring as hell if everyone agreed. Despite being opinionated as hell, despite how it might come across on the boards, I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me about ____ or ____... and actually relish a healthy debate. With the exception of the most overtly offensive shit ("Women ain't fit to work," "men are all sucky assholes," "Them black/Mexican/oriental folks're ruinin' our good country"), I'm certainly not offended if someone takes a different stand on an issue than I do. I'd far rather see a "Hey, that seems problematic to be because of ___. Where'd you get that idea?" than the "Yoour STOOOOPID!!!! Shut upp!!!!" b.s.

Not that I expect that to happen any time soon, though.

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2001

What I can't stand is when you do bother someone with your posts and that person emails you about it, but when you try to respond they have blocked your email address. And then that person emails you again and you try to respond again, and your email is still blocked by that person.

You know exactly what I'm talking about, don't you Dwanollah? Why don't you grow the fuck up and unblock my email address, or quit sending me emails crying about my posts.

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2001

I used to run a BBS a long time ago and I had a little message that popped up when you were entering your own message. It basically reminded people that tone of voice does not translate very well through the written word. Try to read your post in multiple tones and see if you think someone might be offended by it. The other thing that I think a lot of people forget is, posting, like driving, should never be done while you are angry. If you are about to respond scathingly to someone’s post, wait. You don't want to regret it later. I always type it into Word and then read some other stuff for a few minutes then come back to it. I almost always edit the post to be a little less nasty.

But that wasn’t what the original question was. (Bad Travis.) I think that political debates and such are the hardest things to talk about because people invest so much emotion into them. That and too many people think that their opinions are finite (meaning fact A plus fact B equals opinion C). When, of course, opinions are not just the conclusion of a set of facts but those facts combined with your life’s experience and your temperament. I guess that was a long way of saying, just because you hold an opinion doesn’t mean that it is the only correct conclusion to a subject. It is your correct conclusion. My father was always fond of telling us that we were ignoring the obvious facts or that we weren’t smart enough to understand an issue when we drew a conclusion other then his. Truth is, we just aren’t as cynical as he is.

I know this is getting long but I have to say one more thing. Gwen typed my name twice in as many weeks. I think I’m gonna faint. ;)

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2001

I enjoy reading taking part in hot-button discussions on-line - but am always disappointed when things turn into personal flame wars. I mean, can't people have differing opinions without tacking on a "see, I'm right, so fuck you, you ______". Doesn't mean that I'm going to stop taking part in discussions, though.

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2001

Travis, you make a lot of good points.

I enjoy debating and I'm learning how to do it more formally. Even if I don't actively participate in a heated discussion online, I read every word and really try to understand where people are coming from. And like everyone else, I don't like when it descends to name-calling. And I don't like when a person posts with the deliberate intent to maliciously provoke someone else, to bait someone into a flame war, or to just plain ol' pick a fight, because that just takes away from the otherwise good and healthy venting that we normally do around here. :-)

I can't tell from someone's non-political posts where they stand politically. One's comments on Sanrio or antiques or cooking don't usually reveal one's beliefs on taxes or freedom of speech or philosophy of life or anything else. Can you imagine that? "Oh, I see you like Hello Kitty, you must fit in this pigeonhole over here." Ha! :-)

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2001

More mature forums? You mean there are forums that don't have running fart gags?

Sadly, though, you can't have a controversial topic online without it ending up in a flame war. (A good flame war can be highly entertaining if it doesn't degenerate too much into the "you suck" category. You have time to think of all those zingers you might've missed if the conversation were face-to-face.) You have to know when to check out, when someone is being provocative just to get a response rather than to add something to the discussion.

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2001

I love to liven up flamewars by interjecting "Well, Jesus told me I'm right and you're wrong, so die infidel die!"

Sometimes, I've been able to kill off raging flamewars with that quote!

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2001

Ha! I'll have to use that quote on my sil one day, Jonny!

And I'm sorry, farts are always funny.

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2001

HA! That reminds me of how my husband and I convince each other to do something - we'll yell out "The Power Of Christ Compels You!"

Or just fart and run away.

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2001

I dont know if it is a good idea to 'not' discuss politics on the net, but I can tell you one thing for sure, the ones I've seen almost Always end up in flames and then spam and then uh, it just, well, gets real ugly :-)

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2001

Mary Ellen, I meant forums that had been around longer. Sorry... I certainly didn't mean to suggest that anyone was emotionally more mature than us.

-- Anonymous, March 22, 2001

Cause god knows that could never happen.

-- Anonymous, March 22, 2001

Shoot, and I thought I'd caught the drift of the question entirely. Damn those words with subtle nuances of meaning!

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2001

Mary Ellen, I meant forums that had been around longer. Sorry... I certainly didn't mean to suggest that anyone was emotionally more mature than us.

-- Gwen (gwen@gwentown.com), March 22, 2001.

BS. It is obvious what you meant. Spare us, your true colors are showing.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

Whatever, stupid ass.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2001

my ass might be stupid as all asses usually are, but mine isnt fat like yours and i dont live in a trailer and i dont suckup either. oh and im still waiting for apology from you. after sending you flowers you never said thankyou.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

Yeah. Okay. Well, then.

*pause*

Hey! Did I ever mention how much I love pizza?

Boy, do I love pizza. Mmmm.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

Milla, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you once say something about loving pizza?

The only reason I bring it up is that I love pizza too! What a coincidence! And I don't know how you feel about cheese, but for me, the more cheese the better. I really loves me some cheese. And a good thick crust.

I hope I didn't get to contraversial with the crust comment. I just really like thick crust, but I totally respect anyone who likes a thin crust, or even a stuffed crust.

And, of course, all this pizza talk is making me hungry like the wolf. Pizza for lunch? I think yes.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

You know, I'm ambivalent on the Crust Issue. I like a nice chewy crust, particularly if the pizza has a tangy red sauce, but sometimes there's nothing quite like a really crisp thin crust.

I suppose I'm partial to thick crusts when I get extra toppings and thin crusts when I get just cheese or when I order my favourite pizza of all, a white pizza.

Yes, a nice pizza for lunch. What a brilliant idea! Indeed, that would truly hit the spot. I think I shall join you.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

Ah, the secret of New York pizza: thin but especially tasty crust. Thin for thin's sake doesn't quite cut it. And a great thin crust needs a delicious sauce, that's the most important thing.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

I agree. Thin and soggy crust--that is just the WORST.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

I love thick crust. I always say that thick crust makes pizza food. I've never had a thin crust I liked but I'm a bread addict so that might have something to do with it.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001

There's a great New York style pizza here called Anthony's. There's a location the Tech Center and one right up by the University of Denver. It's delicious and the crust is paper thin. If you want a thick crust, try one of the Beau Jo's Pizzas around town. I think they have three different kinds of bread to choose from, and the tables are stocked with bottles of honey for putting on the crusts as a dessert. My favorite Beau Jo's is the original one in Idaho Springs. And the thickest crust I've ever had is on the Sicilan pizza at Pantaleone's off Evans east of I-25. Thick all the way through. And the worst thin crust I've ever had was some place in Breckenridge, I don't even remember its name, just that the crust was so thin and crispy (no, not crispy, it was hard like a shell) you couldn't hardly bite through it.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2001