When will the colleges start really warning potential Youth Ministers about the churches they may, and likely, will encounter?

I served at my first youth ministry @ Southeast in Salt Lake City, UT. They had a history of destroying youth ministers. There were many before me and two after me since the 5 years I have been removed. I chalked the ministry up to experience and vowed to do more research.

Then I landed @ First Christian Church in Kimberling City, MO. Only one previous youth minister (He left the ministry alltogether-so I justified as not being cut out for it) and everyone loved the Sr. minister. Everyone I spoke to at Ozark Christian College said the Sr. was gold! Obviously they were related or owed money to the creep. After 3 years of professional abuse (and an intensive study in Experiencing God) - I acted on my crisis of belief that I could be more; so I left on my own accord (like rats fleeing a sinking ship, I, as well as many others, could see where this church was heading under this leadership) The leadership, headed by the fourth man in the Trinity, turned ugly. They resorted to blackmail saying they would pay me the severence if I told no one how they were about to treat me and my 7-month pregnant wife! The young "moldable and teachable" guy from O.C.C. they hired to replace me called only after 6 months!!! He can't stand it and feels as if he is on the chopping block. My heart broke for him as he told me story after story. He may not make it to his next ministry unless he can take a sabatical and lick his wounds. I am blessed to be at a place to join God where God is at work (a little Experiencing God lingo). I'm not looking for a "blackball" list; but isn't there a way to find out this stuff before you send your resume? Can we track these churches who support the 12-18 month disease in youth ministry? I know, some of the defense will be, "it's not the church but the youth ministers; thier training, background, philosophy, etc." Try to steer clear of that and address the unhealthy atmosphere and the questions. Agree or not, I am watching the typical posting places for youth ministries. When I see these churches advertise, I post ads and ask for possible candidates to contact me for a biased, first-hand take; not to discourage but to inform.

My motive: I just don't want another person to experience ministry as I have. Experience is one thing BUT professional abuse from church leadership with a history/or developing this history is another thing. Loosing one man of God to ministry is one too many! (and there have been many - I don't know too many I went to school with that are still in paid ministries who intended to make it a lifestyle to remain in church ministry) Like a person with an abusive history, I choose to break the chain so those that come behind me will not fall in the same holes.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2001

Answers

Jason:

I know of no way to "preview" senior ministers that are professionaly abusive any more than I do in how to "preview" churches who have reputations for chewing up and spitting out their pastors. Some congregations can be molded towards God, while others (because of the "elder" leadership that is oftentimes not even spiritually qualified)cannot be budged because of a spirit of religion. The only way I know to combat that is the same way we have learned to tell the difference between teachable and unteachble spirits within the church body....discernment from the Holy Spirit. Through prayer and sometimes fasting, it is often apparent when speaking with someone right up front whether they have a humble spirit or one that is in bondage to pride (the leading cause of church problems and dissension). I can greatly empathize with you about the poor treatment you and other youth ministers/ministers have received. We have watched many young men leave the ministry due to un-Christlike behavior on the part of the church leadership, yet I cannot help but believe that if you call on your "Experiencing God" background.....and seek God first for where He's working....and then join Him, that things will not go much better. Would you consider getting involved (or suggesting to other youth ministers that they do so) in a congregation that is seeking after God and developing a youth program from the ground up, while working a secular job? God had my husband do this for 16 years with his present senior pastorate. He has only been full-time for a year and our congregation is one the sweetest, most Spirit-filled group of people you'd ever want to run into. Just a thought. Sometimes, I've noticed (and also speaking from personal experience), we are so intent on finding a paying ministry, that we sometimes miss the sweet opportunities that God places in front of us that "look" a little different from the ordinary. Blessings to you and your family and I pray you will find a solution to this dilemma!

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2001

Vicki,

Very good points! I know that effective ministry often takes place outside the lines of conventional thinking. After leaving the previous ministry, I was a substitute teacher for 6 months in a small Illinois town. I did it as a sabatical but was seriously considering getting the credentials. I had a blast! It was like, no, it really was, having a youth group that was the entire school. I feel some of the most effective ministry in the past couple years was overshadowed by the experience I was having as a teacher. I feel so blessed that God called me and lead me to the place I am now. I am so blessed to be at a place where God is doing incredible work.

I would absolutely consider (and highly recommend) getting involved with a progressive Spirit-led church as a volunteer. (Especially if the alternative is locating a paid ministry, for the sake of getting a job, and winding up at a dead-end ministry experience.)

Thanks for the thought!

I would love to see "Experiencing God" or something like it offered as a requirement during college. I know I would have hated it while in school, but maybe I would have had better discernment in my ministry choices. Bet we all wish we could have a dollar every time we thought and said, "If I only knew then what I know now..." :)

www.logantele.com/~morcomm/

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Jason:

What a grand idea concerning the "Experiencing God" as a required course in Bible College. My husband and I both join you in agreement concerning the "discernment" thing that would definitely have been different with that teaching behind us. We have been tremendously blessed in being placed in an area where we were spiritually mentored by a non-conventional Baptist minister who made us aware of the Holy Spirit's "voice". Also endured some persecution from local CC ministers because of it, but it has changed our lives and our ministry. God sent several people to prepare our hearts and get us to set aside some of the conventional "thinking" we'd been raised with so that God could show us the bigger picture of HIM! Our oldest daughter is preparing to graduate from a CC Bible College in the Spring, but I'd say that probably only about 5-10% of the college instructors/professors would even be open to something like "Experiencing God". We had an elder friend contact us from a growing church in Georgia that had placed the EG material in a box under his bed that we'd given him a couple of years ago. He pulled it out and began teaching it a year or so ago and they literally have waiting lists at his church now to go through the course. He recently called, asking us if we knew of anything else that was as life-changing as that material. Unfortunately, there is an aspect of CC teaching that has been lost since those Cane Ridge Revivals of years ago that swept God's Word throughout the midwest....and that's the fact that the Holy Spirit does play an ACTIVE part in our lives. God DOES want to direct and guide our lives and lead us to a stronger FAITH in Him....you know, the kind that steps out in TRUST without having to SEE everything first! Over the years, we've settled for our own abilities and a resting on our laurels, so to speak, at where our roots lie.....rather than seeing where God is moving today and now! Blessings in your ministry, Jason. Oh and I know what you mean about the giant youth group when you were subbing. My husband had so many NEAT opportunities to minister to students and teachers and even administrators alike when he was subbing full-time! It's an awesome experience!

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001

Chewing people up and spitting people out- sad stories. I don't knwo about the church you mentioned, but it sure does seem that a lot of professional pastors, pulpit ministers, etc. are too focused on their own little kingdoms, rather than on the kingdom of God.

Consider the situation of an apostle or elder in the first century. Take Paul for example. He worked hard making tents and then spent his own money to further ministering the Gospel. He didn't receive a lot of accolades from society. Rather, people anted to kill him. He faced persecution, imprisonment, and eventually was beheaded.

Paul encouraged elders to follow his example of working hard with his own hands to support himself and others. Think about those elders in the early chruch. They weren't men looking for church careers. It is not recorded anywhere in the Bible that they would leave one church looking for another with a better salary, benefits, and a parsonage. Rather, we see that Paul and Barnabas appointed elders from within the very churches they would be ministering to.

Think about it. An elder proved his ability to be elder partly by ruling hois own house well. The church functioned like a big family back then. An elders ability to be a good father and husband showed his ability to be faithful with small thigns, so that he could exercise the same type of leadership on the chruch level. I imagine the elders may have been those that had led many of the disciples in their congregations to Christ, discipled and mentored them, and taught them the word of God.

As a leader in the church, an elder was a likely target if persecution heated up against the church.

Compare that to nowadays. Nowadays, we ahve inherited a modified version of church ministries. Historically 'priest' fomes from the Greek word for elder, but was later used to refer to OT priests. Many Protestants stopped usign the word 'priest' for their leader and started calling him a pastor333. Then, the Reforemed church came along and introduced some 'lay' elders based on the North African 'garousia' community elders. Now, we have this artificial distinction between pastor and elder. New Testament elders are suppoed to be pastors.

Many professional pastors/pulpit ministers are godly men who sacrifice for others. But there is a lot of temptation for a man to build up his own kingdom. A CoC missionary here complains that the local CoC clergymen get salaries many times what they could get working in business, because of foreign funds, and then try to keep their positions by squashing anyone in the church who tries to minister in his gift.

Think about the tempations in the US. The early church met in homes. many modern Christians meetin church church buildings. If a pastor has a giant church building, he may feel his social status increases. A church building can be a monument to a pastor or to a congregation. Pastors can even get into a contest about who is a better pastor, just as men in some other professions. They can compete over who baptizes the most members, how many advanced degrees they have, etc.

Add to all this the American business model of having church. The preacher may be seen as a CEO. He may have his own visions and dreams and try to get the congregation to fit with his own vision. The church, in many ways, is seen as the pastors church. He does most of the teaching (in spite of such instructions as I Cor. 14:26 and Heb. 10:24-25.) He may see himself as someone keeping a congregation together. His job is seen as one of organizing, managing, setting the vision, keeping things in line, and teaching.

Compare this to the NT elder who ministered in a church where regular church members taught, prophesied, exercisesd their spiritual gifts, etc. The elder had to model good ministry, and encourage others in their gifts. There were no seminaries or Bible colleges. The elders and others had to teach regular believers and those with the potential to become elders so that church ministry could continue on. If an elder did his ministry well, he may see believers grow in knowledge andmaturity until, in the church meeting, he may not even being doing much of the speaking and could just belnd into the wordwork, as the congregation he had been ministering to, along with his fellow elders, exercised their spiritual gifts to edify others.

Bible schools present another big problem. I was talking to a German missionary a few weeks ago who said that in the old days, Bible colleges were a place to send proven ministers of the Gospel so that they could sharpen their focus. Now, in some countries, parents send their messed-up kids to Bible college to straigten them out. Students pay a lot of money or borrow it, just like any other college student, and expect to get a job in their chosen field, just like people who get a degree in some other field.

'Elder' means 'old man.' Timothy had to respect the elders and entreat them like fathers. Elders also had some life experience- ruling their houses well. Now, a kid out of Bible college, with little life experience, could end up effectively having power and oversight over his spiritual seniors? Why? Because he has gone to Bible college and is a part of the 'clergy caste.' Wouldn't it be better to teach young ministers in house through Paul/Timothy relationships, rather than just by sending them to schooll. If home schooling is proving effective, can't church schooling ministers be effective as well? I read an article from a Reformed man of Jewish heritage comparing church education to an Orthodox Jews education. It said that said that Bible colleges taught people what a regular believer should have learned in catechism.

I've been working on a brief outline of a neighborhood house church planting plan. I plan to propose that elders bear the responsibility for pastoring the flocks they disciple and minister to, and that elders either keep their secular jobs, or else live on faith, receiving donations as the Lord provides, without pressuring others for money.

-- Anonymous, March 08, 2001

Link:

Good answer, good answer. You mentioned some very worthwhile points. Not to get off of the subject, but our church services do not even look similar to 1st century church "services" or rather gatherings. Back then, EVERYONE came prepared with a word of instruction, or a psalm or a revelation to share with the body of Believers and I doubt seriously that every gathering was totally focused around the sermon. It was, rather, a collective sharing of what God had been doing in the lives of the Believers during the previous week or days. Our congregation has steered much more in this direction in the past months, but I can tell you...it is a threat to some. A threat to those who are not "walking the walk" and are simply there to fulfill some religious obligation.....a threat to other Christians from other churches who come in to visit and see this as "weird". Then there are those who are so refreshed by the presence of the Holy Spirit and the bond that those present share in Christ Jesus. Our congregation has grown, in SPITE of ourselves! I would be much interested in reading your paper or course on house churches when you complete it. I definitely agree that the church needs to get away from the pastor-run type of thing. I was just reading some material on that today at lunch from "Open Church Ministries" by James H. Rutz. Allowing godly men who are LIVING their Christianity in their homes and lives to lead as elders....and allowing the older women to counsel and minister to the younger ones would take us a long way towards building up the body of Believers in the same way that set the old world on fire for Jesus Christ!

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001

Vicki,

I read James Rutz's _The Open Church_ book a few years back and that is when my paradigm for what Biblical church meetings and ecclesiology is like started to shift. Several pages into his book, I began to realize that all those passages of scirpture I had studied didn't say church was centered around one man giving a semron. I'd just read it into the Bible. If you get his book, it's a compilation, and there are a few things in the history section that you need to be careful about. Churches were liturgical, and some even had buildings before Constinite. Liturgy likely came from the synagogue rather than being introduced straight in from pagan temples into church meetings.

This is another web site on the same topic:

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2001