Leica has recently released a new financial report available as a PDF file at: http://www.leica-camera.com/unternehmen/ir/berichte/index_e.html The latest file is 'Third Quarter FY 2000/2001 results'

The M line sales continue the trend of the year + 11.7% The R line sales dipped further down -12.7%

The report announces the introduction of 2 new products for the R. Unfortunately I doubt it will seriously revive its sales.

How long Leica will be able to maintain the R line?

Xavier

-- Xavier Colmant (xcolmant@powerir.com), February 28, 2001

Answers

If Leica plans to keep the R line going, it is going to have to build a new R with predictive AF on par with Cannon's and Nikon's. Add to that some higher speed pro-level zooms, and I believe that is all that's necessary to revive interest in the R line. If they did it, I would abandon my Nikons and spend the extra $$$ in a heartbeat just to get AF with Leica lenses.

This being said, I love my M's, but... I think the reason interest in the M line remains so strong is because there is not any real competition yet, and the lenses are so good. (I'm willing to bet that the new Konica will put a dent in the M body market pretty soon, but it is still too early to tell.) I think Leica better start building aperature-priority exposure into the next M series; if they don't they'll experience the same loss of market share on the M in the near future. Lastly, I'll live with the 1/1000th top shutter speed, and no built in motor drive, as long as that's what is needed to keep the M quiet and small.

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), February 28, 2001.

It's highly unlikely that we'll see new pro R lenses (especially zooms) or AF from Leica - they just don't have the R&D or production capability. After all, they recently withdrew the 35-70/2.8 from production. Going AF would likely require the redesign of all the R lenses, and they just don't have the resources.

What we might see is a concentration on top-quality but more "mundane" styles of lenses, and a lower-cost body than the 6.2 or 8, but even that is questionable. I get the impression that the R line is a loser in many ways, and it may be too late to save it.

On the M line, I have a Hexar RF body that I use with Leica lenses, and I'm thrilled with it. I've also heard the rumours about Cosina coming out with an M-mount Bessa that I would probably buy in a heartbeat. For me the AE and built-in motor of the Hexar have been absolute winners, and I think Leica ought to take a good hard look at those kinds of features (as they undoubtedly have). The M lenses are without peer, and the more bodies that can use them, the better.

Unfortunately for Leica, I've been following the saga of the Canon D30, and I'm pretty convinced that I'll be heading in that direction next (when the 6MP cameras are introduced). If one cares about print image quality in the 8x10 to 11x14 range, these new cameras will have a whole lot to offer. One thing that Leica should seriously consider is a 6MP CMOS back for the M. That would be nearly irresistable - M cameras and lenses, with all those wonderful digital advantages.

-- Paul Chefurka (paul_chefurka@pmc-sierra.com), February 28, 2001.

I think all that would be needed to revive the R lineup is a full- frame CCD 6MP digital body in the under-$5000 range and it shouldn't be difficult or expensive for them to gut the R8 and install components bought from other sources. Contax SLR's were selling worse than R's and they knew simply going AF wouldn't be enough. For Leica I don't think AF is as important now as digital.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), February 28, 2001.

Leica has never been cutting edge with the electronics side of cameras. For them to come out with something state of the art in digital that would be price competitive is highly unlikely. Maybe they could work a deal with Canon to produce digital bodies with a Leica lens mount and re-badge them Leicas as is so popular these days. I also fear a digital back for the M cameras with full 24 X 36 coverage would be bulky and super expensive, and totally battery dependant of course. This is a funny time to be a high image quality loving photographer, as things really are changing. Every time I think about getting a digital camera, I read the detailed reviews of the cameras and its like reading an instruction manual for a computer. So many freaking buttons, scrolling menus, confusing settings and features and then there's all the stuff you need to get the images into the computer and printed correctly without spending all day. I have a snaeking suspicion that "simple" and "digital camera" will never go together.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), February 28, 2001.

Paul:

Can you connect the dots for me? What's the D30 ("I've been following the saga of the Canon D30") and how will it affect Leica's M series?

-- Howard Blumenthal (howardb@voicenet.com), February 28, 2001.

The concensus seems to be that the R8 is not overly heavy, just very bulky. Unfortunately, the design development and tooling costs were enormous, so the option of redesigning the basic camera form seems remote. Add to this the fact that the motor winder and drive were shaped to match the form of the R8's baseplate and it seems that a smaller R model is out because of the flow on to the drives,etc.

The only possible area for redesign seems to be the "top plate" above the steel "gasket" which joins the two parts of the body. Whether this would save much bulk is doubtful.

There is another way of course - take a chassis from another designer/manufacturer (as was done with the R4-R7 line)and put Leica parts into it and Leica finishes onto it. Only a thought.

-- Wayne Murphy (wayne.murphy@publicworks.qld.gov.au), February 28, 2001.

Howard - The dots can only connect if they are red.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), February 28, 2001.

i almost didn't buy a leica because it didn't have aperature priority....i've had it for 3 months now and i'm glad it doesn't...the whole point of a leica M is that it's a simple simple camera....

-- eric grigorian (grigoriane@yahoo.com), March 01, 2001.

There is no doubt that the R8 has been a bad camera for Leica, and it is outsold by the R6.2. Leica will continue to suffer in the SLR range while digital is regarded as being the holy grail by customers and shareholders. I therefore think we shall continue to see Leica prices increase and the number of users will fall. Those of us who do indeed love high quality, high precision photography will still remain interested but it has to be an issue as to whether there will remain enough of us.

Personally, I don't think AF will help: most of us buy Leica because they are manual focus and largely electronics free. In my opinion, they should concentrate their thoughts on making any R9 or M7 the best possible manual (but with sophisticated metering) SLR/RF they can. Clearly they should dump the R8 body shell as this is not well liked (except by those who like it, if you see what I mean).

I did not know that they are withdrawing the 35-70 f2.8. If true I am not surprised - I think Leica let their engineers take over and forgot the market. Why would anyone want to carry such a monster around - even if it is the best 35-70 zoom ever made?

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), March 01, 2001.

Howard,

The D30 is Canon's latest digital SLR - it has an APS-sized 3MP CMOS sensor that outclasses pretty much every other sensor out there. According to at least one guy I respect (Michael Reichmann at www.luminous-landscape.com), inkjet prints from it "look better" than equivalent prints made from Provia 100F scanned with an Imacon. He maintains that the D30 prints hold the advantage up to at least 8x10 and, in his opinion, up to 11x14 (pixellation takes its toll past that).

Needless to say, this is a controversial topic. If it is true - and I believe it may well be, from my examination of his results on the web - then the next generation of digicam using this sensor technology will decisively suppland 35mm film for a large number of serious amateur and fine-art photographers. The next generation promises to be a pro-grade camera with a full-size 24x36mm sensor and 6MP resolution.

One reason I use Leica is to get the best-looking 8x10 and 11x14 prints I can. If a new technology offers me better print quality, along with cheaper shooting costs and no scanning, I'm going to look at it.

-- paul_chefurka@pmc-sierra.com (paul_chefurka@pmc-sierra.com), March 01, 2001.

Paul

You need a really good output printer to allow you to really go all digital. An Epson 870 or1270 inkjet will not do really - good as they are - you can see the dots close up and this is largely a printer issue not a scanning issue. A printer that can do a job like a real photo is big bucks and is expensive to output. I suppose the price will come down. But this does become one of my main beefs about digital issues: have things really improved? Not really -now we have to buy new equipment to do what we always could do, but at a price. Digital has some advantages, but disadvantages too: notably archival issues and continuing expense in order to not be declared "unsupported".

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), March 01, 2001.

Robin's point about supportability and the ever upward spiraling technology is a real concern. I do computers for a living - I'm into photography and the Leica to get away from the damn computer. (I know - so what am I doing on this bulletin board?). But I see the problem of technological obsolescence every day. My company can't purchase a machine that we hope to last 2 years anymore. At least I can still get my 45-year old M3 serviced, and of course the complete history of M lenses are fully interchangeable. Today's digital inadequacies will eventually be overcome. But I'm not sure it will "solve" problems versus just shift them in another direction. And I'm not sure if I want to get into that game.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), March 02, 2001.

To further connect the red dots:

1. Don't assume digital technology will replace the analog version. That hasn't yet happened in any other medium, and it probably won't happen in photography any time soon.

2. But, it will kill off a whole lot of camera stores and one-hour photo shops. Nowadays, it's unusual for even a medium-sized city to support even three good photo stores.

I saw this happen in the art supply world. It's become very specialist, with a few large chains and plenty of mail order action. We're seeing the same pattern in retail photography.

We'll also see fewer manufacturers. So long as Leica can produce better images than digital, we're fine. But there will be a time, perhaps 5-10 years from today, when digital backs, and printers will surpass even medium format quality.

Which leaves lenses. Which is the whole reason for Leica's being. Which is why I remain hopeful.

-- Howard Blumenthal (howardb@voicenet.com), March 02, 2001.

After nearly 30 years using various M cameras, I recently switched to the Canon D-30. The good news is that the image quality is excellent; prints up to 11x14 on an Epson 1270 look terriffic. No film developing or scanning is a giant plus as well. I have no interest in going back to film.

BUT, the lenses feel flimsy, focussing is very vague, and the whole experience of using the camers seems very fussy. Also, because of the lens multiplier effect caused by the digital imaging chips being smaller than a 35mm frame it's difficult to do wide angle.

Bottom line, I would jump at a digital M camera. Rangefinder focussing, the M lenses, semi-manual TTL exposure adjustment, the whole Lieca methodology would be a pleasure! In terms of features, I don't think they would have to add much more than basic digital controls - and I hope it's soon!

-- Terry Culhane (terry@culhane.com), March 06, 2001.

Terry

Do check back and give us your thoughts on the D30 in a year's time. I would be interested to know what you think then. Sometimes new technology has the habit of appealing for a few months but then you begin to see and appreciate its failings, so I would like to know whether in a year you still feel the same about the D30 experience. Most people who own Leica stay with it as it seems so right so the change to out and out digital is very radical. Often it takes time to really find out what works and what doesn't.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), March 09, 2001.

Basically what i see the problem with R system is the bodies. I have had bad experiences with all except R6.2 which is superb. My new R8 had electronics problem which was fixed by Leica. But the pint is that there should be no snags with new top of the line equipment.Secondly what I feel with R8 is that the time lag after pressing the shutter button and release is unacceptably slow. It lags far behind the Canon/Nikon F5 /EOS3 etc but also more so than the venerable Canon A1. this lead to a potential handshake situation.

The R lenses are superb and what Leica needs is a new body which is lighter but more efficient than R8.

I do not agree that Leica can manage to revive with AF. it's far too late for that. For Digital too it would be a marginal situation as other firms have more resources and R&D. Fuji for instance is helping Leica digital but will they give them the cutting edge in technology. I doubt it !

For Leica to be viable they need to perserver with R & M and make a new body with electronics for M (Option must be given to the mareket at a lower cost). they an use electronic shutters and metal blinds giving Contax G2 type of performance. For R they need a new sleeker body, Leica has sold on name and snob value and will continue to do so as their optics are suberb

Imran

-- IMRAN AHMED (iahmed@cyber.net.pk), June 25, 2001.