I was talking to my Baptist friend and was talking about the Bible alone thing. Anyway, I said that we accept the Bible in matters of faith because it is God's inspired Word, but it is not the only rule of faith. She said I contradicted myself. Then she started telling me about Baptist beliefs. They think that once you're saved you're always saved and said something like Hitler might be in heaven if he accepted Christ as a kid. How am I supposed to fight this? I showed her a scripture where it says persever to the end and she responds with this, "Yeah, that's what you're supposed to do, but you don't have to." Is this making any sense to anyone!?

-- Brandon (bubbi_fox@hotmail.com), February 27, 2001

Answers

I agree with jr's last sentence. But what if young Adolf really did accept Jesus (not saying that he did...) and then changed as an adult as a result of his experiences in WWI? Then you have a case of someone who *did* accept Jesus, but then turned away from that. What then? Hence the need for repentence and penance

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-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 27, 2001.

Mt 3:8 Produce good fruit AS EVIDENCE OF your repentance

That's what penance is, evidence of your repentence. You can't just say, "I repent." You must SHOW your repentence.

There's more, but that should be all you need...like the tomato sauce commercial..."It's in there..." ..............................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 27, 2001.

Sam,

And you would like him to leave it? Why? You can't possibly believe that! Aside from the fact that Hitler HATED the Church, and tried to reinstate paganism in Germany, your evidence is what...?

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-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 27, 2001.

No, Anthony; Sam Smith could be right.

If Hitler, a ''good Catholic'' had truly and sincerely REPENTED of his evil life and his evil works, before dying; By the reality of his baptism in Christ, and his own repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ --he would be absolved, forgiven and saved, by grace through Jesus Christ. This is hypothetical at best. What would follow, as the Church teaches us? A period for Hitler in Purgatory. Who knows how long or how severe? The final Judge is God. Human as we are, we would sentence Hitler to ten thousand or more years in the fires of Pugatory. But we realize that God is the Judge, and a Just Judge. Meaning, Hitler, the arch-fiend-- now saved and bound for eternal life; would suffer NOT one day more, NOR one day less than his sins have deserved him, after his eternal salvation was settled. Salvation through Our Lord Jesus Christ! This is the truth, as taught in the Holy Catholic Church!

Blessed Mother Mary-- Pray always for us; Amen. James, Brother, Disciple and Apostle of Our Lord, Pray for us! Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 28, 2001.

Possible salvation for Hitler wasn't what I took issue with. I took issue with the "good Catholic" remark.I contend that he was likely Catholic in name only, and probably personally rejected that name, but calling him a "good Catholic" is a slight on the faith.

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-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 28, 2001.

Sure, anyway I said this was a hypothetical way of looking at it. My own point is, an Alex or Susan will say Hitler couldn't have received Jesus, based on his evil works. On the face of it, this is obvious.

But, he was baptised a Catholic. The Church teaches God will not reject a humble and contrite heart. He could have chosen at the end to confess his evil works, and died contritely. Naturally, it's a stretch of the imagination, and purely hypothetical.

Now, what about salvation? In this case, he would be saved, as all sinners are, by faith in the Passion Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Wish I could have said all this more succinctly. Here's the rub: What would await this person after death? Alex and Susan would say heaven and eternal happiness! What does the Holy Spirit tell us, in the teaching of the Catholic Church? Purgatory; who knows for what period, and how much suffering ? It would have to suffice for all the temporal punishment Hitler's sins deserved. Nobody but God can fathom such a punishment. But we know exactly this would be the consequence; not the one supposed by protestants, who deny the truth of Purgatory.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 28, 2001.

Dear Junior,
As usual, you're showing your ignorance.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 28, 2001.

It is important to remember that we are dealing in hypotheticals here.

" If hiteler went to heaven then that means anybody could go to heaven."

That is the whole point of Jesus' mission. Because of Him, "anybody" * can* (not to say "everybody does"...don't misquote me now) go to Heaven (there's just some things they must do).

as for the rest of it, poor, poor, misguided jr. I just hope that by the time you realise you're wrong you don't have a sudden --- sinking - -- feeling...

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-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 28, 2001.

Sam, you're contradicting yourself. Hitler committed suicide, a grave sin. How could he be repentant at the same time? Add to this all his other sins. If you say with assurance that ''we don't know if he repented'' we also don't know of any way he could have repented. God will be the Judge.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 28, 2001.

Dear William:And there is no such a thing in the Bible as anybody ever being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost; because there is no such a thing. Father's no name; and Son's no name; and Holy Ghost is no name; but the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost is the Lord Jesus Christ. Exactly what the apostles and all down through the age they've recognized.

But that is the very thing that is in the Bible! In Matthew 28:18- 20, Jesus says :"All power in heaven and earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold I am with you always, until the end of the age."

-Hannah

You said:

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), March 01, 2001.

Yes, but if Father and Holy Spirit were Jesus (Son) than whenever Jesus refers to the Father, He would have said, "me" instead of "my Father" (showing a distinct difference) and when talking about sinning against the Holy Spirit he would have said "sinning against 'me'." Same differentiation. At His baptism, the Holy Spirit descended on Him (descended on Himself?) and the Father said, "this is my Son, my Chosen, listen to Him." not, "this is me, listen to me." Jesus is one in being with the Father, but He is not the Father. Talk to the contrary is just silly.

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-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), March 01, 2001.

Great answer, Anthony. Why must all these posts come up with such makeshift explanations of a clear and direct passage in scripture,

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

+

Don't they realize they are bowdlerizing Jesus' own words? ''Spoken as a parable''! Imagine? Christ was giving His Apostles a direct command, and His instructions were explicit! And does this mean, half the words are parabolic, then the second half, ''teaching them to observe all I have commanded you,'' that part was not a parable? This is not a complex passage. These folks must be fast asleep while they're reading the Bible.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 01, 2001.

+

Dear William, the ''believer''--
Here's part of your post above:

Therefore, to disregard the Bible, the Catholic church believes that God gave the church the power to change or do anything it wanted to. See? Therefore, if the Catholic church is right, if that is true what God did, then we're all wrong but Catholics (See?)

+

You're a believer in false propaganda, the Catholic Church never ''disregards the Bible.'' When you say that, you're committing a sin, bearing false witness.

As for the ''power'' to do or change anything it wants; you're wrong. It has the power only to do what the Holy Spirit wants done. The power is God's; the Church is the house of God. We love the Church because it carries Christ's Gospel to the whole world. Following is another one of your statements:

And there is no such a thing in the Bible as anybody ever being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost; because there is no such a thing. Father's no name; and Son's no name; and Holy Ghost is no name; but the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost is the Lord Jesus Christ. Exactly what the apostles and all down through the age they've recognized.

=

This odd statement is false. You haven't a clue what you're talking about. Our Lord very clearly commanded His Apostles to baptise ''In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit'', no matter what William Believes. Look it up for yourself, Will: (Matt,29 :19) It's just as clear as a wart on your nose.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 01, 2001.

Dear William (believer),
When I argue with someone like you, I feel urges to say nasty or unkind things. You might have noticed I often fail in my obligations to Christian charity. And, the Catholic Church teaces me that is wrong.

I'm sorry if I become impatient and short with you. Clearly you are a good man.

Let me ask one question of you, and I don't want to know what you feel about the Church, or about the Bible, or about you and me / Tell me if you love Jesus Christ with all your heart. I just want to know, is your love for Jesus Christ the reason you come here to preach?

I do love Jesus Christ more than anything I can ever love. I wish to know if you do, too. After you tell me, I have a suggestion fto make. Let's hear it from you, William. How about it?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 01, 2001.

Eugene,

What you say is correct if indeed Hitler did commit suicide; there are many who believe he didn't. However there remains the possibility that he was quite insane and therefore not responsible for this actions. As you say "God will be the Judge".

-- sam smith (ssmith@hotmail.com), March 01, 2001.

William, my question was one question, Do you love Jesus?

Yes and No are the possible answers, and you answer the good one.

The exposition of all your reasons to love Him is all fine and good. My Bible is just as good as yours, you have not pronounced a THING which I did not already have by way of the Catholic Church. You introduce your own negative views of who ''CAN'T'' give you the love, or the truth. Meaning the Church. In that part of your supercharged answer you miss the mark completely.

+
Your words I love the Word, don't you? They are the Words of Life, God's blessed Life. We love them, because they speak peace. They come from the Bible, the only Book that tells me who I am, where I come from, and where I'm going, the only Book in existence that tells us that. And it's only Book that's written of all the fine literature there is in the world, this is the only Book that is positive the Truth.

+

I love the Word, yes. but nothing in that Bible says you must depend upon it entirely for your spiritual life. On the contrary, many important passages (that you skirt around carefully) tell us plainly Christ's detailed intentions and pronouncements. These make up a Gospel of His precise plan of salvation. In the Word are found all the demands He makes on a true Believer. You have been forced by your adoration of the Book to pass over all the treasures which the Book point your nose at, William. You exchanged GOLD for Silver.

Now that you've confessed that you feel an overwhelming love for Our Saviour; my own suggestion to you:

Please make proper use of God's grace, investigate the Catholic Church from within. Not from outside, in those books and tracts written by non-Catholic authors. They all have a big axe to grind and you damn well know it! Come into the Catholic Church, find out all its teachings, investigate its history and its fidelity to the Word that you keep saying you love.

If you do this, with a pure and unbiased heart, it may change the way you've always seen the Church. Then you'll want to come back to it. It welomes you with love and acceptance; not like your master, like a mother. This is the Church which was the Mother of your own people, your distant ancestors. For whatever reasons, they were torn away from her, and like orphans became children of another house. Probably they were converted away by fear of death or the loss of their properties and their loved ones. Your ancestors were victims of the powerful. If they'd had any choice they would've remained in the Catholic Church. You would be a Catholic today, William. You would love Jesus exactly as I love Him; and the Bible as well. But you would also benefit immensely in the Truth, and in the graces God extends humanity from JESUS HIMSELF on the holy altar of the Catholic Church. Take my advice. Jesus whom you love is rapping desperately at your door, the door He wants to come through. Let Him in!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 02, 2001.

Jmj

William wrote: "Come to find out that the Bible said that, 'Whosoever shall take anything out of this Bible, or add anything to It, the same will be taken from his part of the Book of Life.'"

William should now "come to find out" that the Bible has no such passage -- no passage that speaks of "tak[ing] anything out of this Bible ..."

William makes things up as he goes along -- whatever may be convenient to his private theology. God gave him a splendid chance early in life, putting him in contact with a priest, despite the apostasy of his parents. But he didn't grasp the gift he had been given, instead choosing to plow forward with blinders on, as he continues to do today.

Our Lady of Sorrows, pray for us. God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 02, 2001.

I understand, John. But he can come back. It may be his good parents, even if they weren't devout, still had Willian baptised. He is then a Catholic. Some very great Catholics were originally enemies of the Church (Start with Saint Paul.) All he has to do is admit he's helpless to figure out many things in Scripture. God's giving Will grace. He's entered this forum, and God has exposed him to the True Church. He's met some of us here that don't bamboozle easily. Now he needs a period of self-examination. He needs more humility, and prayer. He needs our prayers. In time, Jesus Christ, whom William loves, will break though his resistance. Many things will become clear to him that were frightening. All protestants fear the bug-a-boo, Rome and the Pope, and AntiChrist. You saw how William recited all that odious rot, which innocent protestants were told about Christ's Church, early in their indoctrination. He might soon realize it all came out of the devil's bag. It will require courage. But pardon me for saying it; he came to the right place, John.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 02, 2001.

Thanks, Eugene, for painting me that mental picture of Little Willy being baptized. Very uplifting!
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 02, 2001.