I am going to contribute my response to some threads that I got on too late and then get to the question.

I work for an agency which provides shelter and support services to survivors of sexual assault, domestic violence and dating violence. That's what I do. Not related to my BA in History except for the fact that I really got into women's studies in college. Anyway. That's what I do to help stop violence against women. Day in, day out. I work with teens through our community education department. I have to go out and try to teach the information that we think is necessary to help survivors and stop perpetrators. However, you can imagine that it gets difficult.

So, one thing I do is an activity called "Take A Stand". I make a statement. You tell me if you agree or disagree. I know what I think, but sometimes it is like I need new rebuttles for the attitudes and comments out there. So help me out with this one. I'll jump in every once in a while. I am coming to you all 'cause reading your input to other threads proves to me that I am working with a very intelligent group of people.

So, take a stand. If a girl stays with a guy who hits her, she probably wants it or deserves it. Agree or Disagree? Remember, no slamming.

-- Anonymous, February 20, 2001

Answers

He needs a talk behind the seawall with me. She needs help with her self esteem if she doesn't leave immediately. He's a jerk and she's a fool if she stays. Of course I've been spanked by girls but I don't think that counts here. Or does it?! "Any" violence is unacceptable. Of course if you want to be violent, come look me up. James

-- Anonymous, February 20, 2001

Neither. She just feels that she deserves it.

-- Anonymous, February 20, 2001

I'll have to agree with Robyn. There's no end to how low a woman's self-esteem can be pushed.

-- Anonymous, February 20, 2001

I, too, worked for years at a center against rape and domestic violence (crisis hotline and then picking up women/children and taking them to the safe house)... I cannot imagine ANYONE wanting or deserving abuse... (some of the stuff I saw was truly horrendous) - but, like others noted, some people feel they are getting what they deserve, or want so badly to "fix" their relationships, or cannot imagine a life without abuse. It truly is a cycle - and, sadly, kids who see this in their family tend to accept it - some turn into abusers, some believe that abuse is part of life or even a part of a "passionate" relationship.

-- Anonymous, February 20, 2001

I think people see themselves as the heroes of their own lives, and will go to almost any length to maintain that myth, even if it means punishing someone they love for challenging it. The victim then becomes responsible. Even a serial killer has to have a powerful delusion of himself, to give himself license to take another life. You can get mad at him, but your anger does nothing to dispell his delusion. The worst punishment you can put him through is humiliation, to show him how far away he is from the myth of himself.

As for the victim, unless she's otherwise sticking knives and forks in her own hands like a heroin addiction, I don't think she's asking for pain. So the question should be, what is the victim getting that she will accept trememdous amounts of pain? I actually think the abuse is incidental to the victim's problem. Something is impeding the victim from her decision to flee from her abuser. To her, the risk to her life is still acceptable, contributed, perhaps, by a low self-image, but I also think to avoid the risk of enduring what she sees as a worse fate. At least she's not alone. At least someone wants her. At least her abuser will keep the real scary losers away.

But the problem with that kind of security-seeking, putting all of one's effort into not making any mistakes, doesn't just take place in the extreme cases where a lover accepts a tremedous amount of abuse. The real problem is that clutching onto things distorts the soul, like Lot's wife turning into salt, or Kafka's Metamorphosis character turning into a Cockroach, or that episode of the Twilight Zone where that couple is afraid to leave town, because the penny-operated fortune-teller tells them it might be a mistake. Joseph Campbell points out that the kind of hero that brings hope to a community leaves childhood when he leaves behind his me and mine sense of entitlement and security, and focuses on his primary responsibility. When you accept one path, all other paths must be abandoned. People who are celebrated as heroes will say, "Why are these people honoring me for doing what I had to do?" Well, the truth is people rarely take responsibility in their lives. They dick around with their careers. They dick around in their relationships. They despair over their dog being destroyed because it killed a person. Why be responsible for your actions, when you can just fell good about yourself and blame someone else? Anyway, that's how it looks to me.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Oh wise and powerful Tigerman. I bow to such wisdom. Many never take responsibilty for their own fate and accept whatever comes to them. Many can't stand the thought of being alone. Alone with their own dishonest facade of themselves. Someone close to me can't see past such irrational fear that life is passing them by unenjoyed. I will print out your words in hopes that their magic will seep through their self imposed darkness. Oh mighty and wonderful Tigerman. James the Humble

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Well this hits pretty close to home. I was in a couple of abusive relationships for a total of 12 years. I had no family risk factors like alcohol abuse or abusive parents. What I did get though was the constant message that my feelings were of no value. I was not allowed to be mad. If I cried I was given, "something to cry about", i.e. spanked (and not the fun kind James :). My mother is very appearance oriented. She was never one to tilt the boat, let alone rock it. Even though they hated my first husband, when I told her I was getting married she cried tears of joy, the only time I've ever seen her cry. My parents knew I was sleeping with him and felt, at the time, that being married to a jerk was better than living in sin. My mom always competed with me. She wasn't interested in me going to college so much as being married. My dad was proud of my academic achievements, but he died in '85. I really, really thought that if I loved these men more, try harder, I could make it work. I could make them happy. Being a scientist, I'd try secret experiments. I'd try really hard to behave the way they wanted, but began to realize that it didn't matter. I got good counselors who held a mirror in my face to help me see the true reality because these men convinced me I was ungrateful, demanding and worthless. When nothing worked, *I* felt like a failure. I was in a verbally abusive environment for 3 years. It was hell. Recently, my new temporary boss wanted to hear my side. Three hours later many holes had been filled and confusions he had were clarified. I tried not to cry because it hurt so bad, but he told me it was OK and to go ahead because he wanted to hear my story (he's the one I *want* in a bad way). He asked the age old question, "why have you stayed?" I said that it applied to my personal life as well. I thought if I tried harder....Also, I'm a single mom who pays all of my daughter's expenses. I couldn't just quit and jobs in my position are difficult to find. I was told they didn't respect me because anyone else in my position wouldn't of taken that crap and left. I have learn a lot. I have gone from 12 years of abuse to seeing the signs and cutting it off after 48 hours. I don't want this to be a bummer story. I'm safe and OK and have learned what great company I am. I have learned quickly to recognize warning signs. Dispite my work environment, (I am trying hard to change careers) I have a good and fun life outside of work. I've had a lot of successes, which I believe is the key to improving anyones self-esteem. Telling someone they're a good person doesn't do Jack Shit. And, my daughter is my life. I am sorry this is so long. Obviously, I just hit the tip of the iceberg, my whole point being that violence against women is not black and white. It is extremely complex. Women stay for many differnt reasons. I don't know how you do your job. I know how frustrating it must be convincing a women that she deserves better.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Of course these women don't deserve it. I think Vicki is right, that women stay for reasons very particular to their circumstances. I'm sure low self-esteem has something to do with it, but I don't know many women who aren't struggling with that and they're not in abusive relationships. I think that in a lot of cases women stay because they love the asshole and believe him when they are sorry after they've hurt them. I also think if they have children or are scared of going out into the world alone, that these things would keep them there. If you live in fear of daily or frequent physical violence, it may become a norm and if you leave what else is out there to get you? It can happen to anyone. Do people blame kidnap victims for sympathising with their captors? I think you need an open mind, experience as a human being, psychology and plenty of training to deal with this horrible issue. Intervention and counselling are the only way- society needs people like you Letty, keep it up!

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

I see the extremes at both end of this question and very little of the middle. By that I mean I see dead women who have been killed by inventive maniacs and I also see couples who get wound up once every three months or so and he smacks her and she throws a plate a him and then they make up and make love and everything is rosey. In the latter case I stay the fuck out of it. The kids seem well-adjusted and the two combatants don't seem to carry a grudge and even joke about their "battle scars" which are very minor, anyway. I go after the former with every means at my disposal. Maybe I'm a Holly Go- Lightly on this thing, but I don't see any relationships where the man is constantly smacking his missus around and degrading her as a matter of course. I'm well aware that this probably isn't done in view of others, though and probably exists under my nose, but I have very limited actually experience with it. When I was in graduate school I drove a cab at night. One night, at two in the morning, I picked up this middle-aged couple at a bar. On the way to their house, I hear a coupla meaty thumps from the back and the woman starts screaming. I slammed on brakes and tilted the mirror down so I could see at the same time. This joker has got his wife down by the throat with one hand and is hitting her closed fist, HARD with the other, right in the face. I jumped out, jerked open the back door and grabbed that asshole by the belt and jerked him out on the pavement. I was cocked to give him one, but he fell down and started hollering. I'm raising hell with him with my back turned and his wife climbs out the back, blood running from her nose, and promptly climbs on my back and starts puching me in the head!... Screaming that I'm gonna hurt her husband. Jesus Christ. That bitch ruined one of my good shirts with her blood and I found out later that ONE of them had puked in the back of the cab and I had to clean it up to turn the cab. Plus, I got stiffed on the fare, because I got so fucking disgusted with both of them I pushed her off, climbed back in the cab and left both those fruitcakes standing in the dark in a bad neighborhood at 2:30 in the gawdamned morning. If some seven foot soul brother ran into them...well, I pity THAT poor bastard. I don't know too much about this subject. I just feel that anyone who suffers constant abuse and does nothing about it, is either stupid, pitiful or bent.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

...and deserving of sympathy? I don't think so. I mean, you have to allow yourself to be a victim in those cases, don't you? My wife and I give to Women's Shelters and other things, so I know there's an alternative to being degraded and punched.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Y'all are right, there are so many shades to this issue. While I never experienced physical abuse, I enabled emotional abuse for way too long because I was power tripping. If I could just BE beautiful enough, fun enough, whatever enough, then he would stop being a General Asshole and give me love in return. I wanted to be dynamic enough to make this self-centered, fatalistic prick change his ways. I wanted to make him want to be a better man. Excuse me while I go puke.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

The two women I know who've stayed in abusive relationships stay because they're too proud to get out of the situation. They'd rather be married and (secretly) abused than publicly divorced. They'd rather privately fail at making things better than ask for help and show weakness. I don't pretend to understand it, and I don't think they deserve it, but maybe in a weird way, they do want it. (or maybe it's better said that they'll take it over the alternatives).

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

I think there is also a bizarre sort of short-sightedness that goes along with many of these kinds of relationships, too. It's amazingly easy to tell yourself every time is the last time, and believe it. As you are sitting there in shock over what just happened, those are often the moments that decide your reaction, and then you just stick with that decision.

And, I hate to admit this, but there is a feeling that comes a little while after you've been hit that tells you "That really wasn't so bad, was it? You've taken better hits than that, this is nothing." I think there is a breaking point for each of us, of what we'll accept. For some women, a slap across the face just once is enough to send you packing, but for others, it takes a broken arm or a bruise on the face to make you finally say "Wait, this crosses the line. This is unacceptable."

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Maybe some of these abused women used to be the ones who said, "What kind of loser stays with a jerk like that? She must like being abused," and then when it happens to them, they are too proud to admit it. And they have no support system to turn to for help because everyone they know has the same attitude -- "You must be a loser to let someone treat you like that."

I disagree that a woman who stays with an abuser wants or deserves the abuse. I think she most likely feels that she doesn't deserve any better. Constant messages from the abuser back this up. Messages from society back this up.

I agree with Tiger Man in that I imagine that the woman thinks to herself, "Well, this guy treats me badly, but at least he wants me, for some reason. Maybe if I try a little harder, I won't make him so mad and he'll treat me better. That'd be better than going out on my own into the world, where no one will want me or give me a job, because I'm a loser."

If you've never felt that way about yourself, congratulations. If you're annoyed by women who feel that way about themselves, maybe you can call them and say, "Yes, I agree that you're a loser. Tell your husband to hit you once for me. You deserve it!" Then these women will learn from your self-confident example and the world will become a better place.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Gwen, I agree 100% with you. I think these women's self esteem is so low at this point that they don't think they deserve any better.

I don't know. I've never been abused nor do I know anyone who has.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

I think it's really one of those things that you only think you understand, until it happens to you, and then you can't believe that you ever thought you had the capacity to understand.

And I cannot speak for every woman who has ever been hit, but I definitely walked around in a state of shock whenever it happened. Remembering the incident was like remembering a dream, which makes it very difficult to think about it rationally or apply logic to the situation. It is really only with the distance of space and time that I can look on those days with any clarity, and it feels like I'm thinking about things that happened to someone else.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

I'm in the She Thinks She Deserves It camp. Plus I think it sucks that people always question why she would stay rather than question why he would hit her in the first place.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

I agree with Gwen. Also, I tend to think that no matter how much someone hates a situation, they wouldn't stay in it if they weren't getting something out of it. Not like they love the abuse, but if they walked out or otherwise did something to put a stop to it, the domino effect of that action would cause changes, friction and uncertainty that the person doesn't feel equipped to deal with, and letting the abuse continue is at least something they're used to and they've formulated a system of coping with it.

I was abused by my mother, and the reason I never told anyone was because I loved her and didn't want people to think she was a terrible person. Also, I didn't think anyone would believe me, since I wasn't walking around with black eyes on a daily basis or anything. If I'd told a counselor or a teacher, it's likely that my family would have been totally destroyed, and I didn't want the responsibility for that disruption placed on my shoulders. So I endured it and then my prayers were answered and my father figured out what kind of person she really was. And then I moved 3000 miles away.

So, no, I don't think she wants the abuse, per se, but she DOESN'T necessarily want to face the consequences of ending it, either.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Also, anyone who's abused probably thinks -- at least a little bit -- that they do deserve it. You're told over and over that you're worthless and that the abuser wouldn't need to abuse you if you didn't 'provoke' them. It's really that simple in the minds of the abuser, and they don't stop to think, 'Hey, what could ANYONE -- let alone a child or someone smaller than me -- do that would justify me beating the shit out of them?' No blood (in quantities greater than a gallon), no foul.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

There is also a cycle of abuse that women go through. The man abuses the woman, he sees she is hurt, he then apologizes and swears it will never happen again and maybe gets her a gift like a piece of jewelry or flowers, and she believes it won't happen again. There are also men who are so manipulative that they convince the woman that she can't live on her own, or they threaten to take away anything/anyone (like kids) that is of value to her.

A woman may stay in an abusive relationship because she thinks the abuse won't happen again because her man promised, or because she is afraid of losing her children, home, shared friends, etc.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Wow, that's really interesting, Nicole. I never thought of that. Where did you hear this?

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Nicole, I agree with you wholeheartedly. You're a smart woman.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

You guys are too sweet. I learned about it in one of my Sociology classes (who some consider useless, but I find useful in understanding society). I learned a lot about family dynamics in that class.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Nicole, a lot of people pretend that a subject is 'useless' if it's just too much for their feeble mind to grasp. I pretended that algebra was 'stupid' when I was 13 and couldn't get my head 'round quadratic equations, even though I knew that it was me who was stupid at math and that algebra is anything but.

Then again, I was 13.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

I think that people who are abused often do not have trouble distinguishing what the "right" choice is (ie, end the abuse, report the abuser, get out of that environment, etc.), but, like Jackie said, that responsibility can be overwhelming sometimes. I know that some people immediately disregard sibling abuse as kids being kids, but I grew up in a house where I was constantly beaten and terrorized by my older brother. My parents knew it, and my mom's reaction was to yell at me to stop provoking him (can you tell what kind of house she grew up in?) and my dad ignored it because he didn't want to see it. What kinds of lessons do you think I internalized? The one time I did report him to school authorities, my family was ordered to go to counseling once a week and my mother resented me for making a big deal out of everything and for refusing to pretend that everything was fine. It wasn't until I turned 24 that my father and I had a long talk about everything, and he broke down and said that he was sorry that he put me through that, and that he just couldn't believe that his son is the kind of person that he is. Have I been in abusive relationships? No. But that doesn't mean that I can't understand what kind of pressures - both internal and external - can keep women in them.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Elena, the NSPCC (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children) here in the UK released a study late last year which concluded that something like 40% of child abuse cases are those where a child is being seriously mistreated by a sibling (not 'child's play' -- beatings, mental cruelty and terrorising).

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

I'm not surprised, Jackie. I took a course called "Violence in the Family" (also sociology, thank you very much!) and the three types we studied were spousal, elder, and sibling abuse. It was a really interesting (and really emotionally draining, at times) course.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Of course I have a kazillion things to say. A lot of it has already been said. First, thanks to whoever it was that said - why don't we ever ask why he hit her in the first place. It shouldn't be she's stupid for staying. He's stupid for hitting her...etc. Why doesn't he leave?

No one deserves to be abused and I don't think anyone wants to get hit. Bubba, I'm glad you donate to women's shelters, but the truth is not everyone knows that they exist even. Immigrants for example, don't even know it is against the law to be assaulted by your man, woman, or parent figure, much less know that there are shelters. And I can also tell you that at least our shelter is always full. We have to turn women away from are shelter and refer them to one 50-100 miles away. If the woman has no transportation that becomes an issue especially if she has a job she can't lose, or how will she now be able to look for a new job or new housing. So for Houston, with 2 million people in it, plus 2 million in the "Greater Houston Area" there is one shelter for battered women and their children and 45 beds that are always full. Granted we are building a new shelter, but like someone else said, for self-esteem to be achieved a number of successes need to happen. And in 30 days, you are more worried about finances, health, housing, food and stability for your children than with self-esteem.

So. Women stay for love (or what they think is love or wanting love), they think he'll change cause he said he would, or that she can change him, the kids (although it is not always good to stay for that reason), finances, low-self esteem (internalizing that she deserves it or that she is no good), lack of resources, isolation (no support system). I'm sure I've left out a few.

Sometimes teaching people empathy is the hardest thing of all. Not to mention de-teaching 10,000 years of patriarchy that reinforces that power and control are good things to work toward at all costs.

Well, enough of that for a minute. Anyone else?

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

Wow, Letty, I didn't realize how little resources battered women had in your area. Even in my podunk city (with a metro population of 100- 125 thousand) the shelter is bigger than yours.

Can you use donations from us? Maybe we can do an online auction to help your shelter out. Would anyone be interested in doing that?

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

I just looked in our phone book and there was only 1 listing for San Antonio also. I know there's a Ronald McDonald house by my husband's work.

Letty, do most of the women come from an abusive background (being abused by a parent or seeing a parent abused)? I know it can happen to anyone, but I was wondering if it's more common if they grew up with abuse.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2001

That cycle of remorse, gifts and promises of it never happening again after abuse is called "the honeymoon phase" by counselors in the field (personal experience in a batter's women's group). Also, my counselor hated pop books, but recommended this one, it saved my life. "Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them" by Susan Forward, Ph.D. It covers mental abuse, the whys and what to do. When I read it, I was blown away because it had *quotes* of the same things psycho number whatever would say to me, like "You don't know which side your bread is buttered on". I found a piece of Bubba's to agree with, and that is the women's contribution. I DON"T mean like not washing the clothes, I mean why it is one is attracted to these jerks. But, you *can't* analysis the why he does it-you do it, dynamics and how to live a normal life until you are out and back from the crazy situation and are safe. Otherwise, it just feels like more blame and at that state, suicide seems viable. I know how frustrating it is Bubba. I quite going to group because I had heard all the horror tales before and quite well understood the dynamics by that time. In fact, I'd get really frustrated at the newbies, which is why I think your job is so very hard Letty. I didn't learn, until years later, my own personal contributions until my psychiatrist forced me to look at it. It hurt, but was needed and helped.

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

Bubba, your experience has been filmed and sold. Usually the scene is in gangster movies. I wonder if it's normal for the woman to protect the man who beats her. I would honestly think she'd recognise a new reality to her situation and bugger off at this chance, but I guess it's not that simple. They love the asshole that abuses them and believe their lies, their children keep them there and their insecurity about making it on their own beats them even more.

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

Considering the nature of this thread and the fact that many of you are from Texas, I'm going to post this website.

www.et-todaymagazine.com

Check out the Missing on page one and then click on Unsolved.

Jane, I don't doubt it, but it really happened to me, too. Unfortunately, I don't have to fake some experiences. Maybe it's a case of life imitating art or even the other way around, huh?

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

Here in Toronto, ON, the police have in the last year instituted a zero tolerance program on domestic abuse. If the abuse is bad enough for the police to be called, charges are automatically laid by the Crown. If the police show up, someone is going to spend the night in the lock up. They are arraigned in a special court the next morning, and conditions are laid for their bail, including compulsory anger management courses. I have some friends on the Toronto police force, and from what they tell me, it reflects Bubba's experience. One officer to put the arrestee in the scout car, one officer to watch the remaining spouse in case of attack.

Peel Region, the suburbs west of Toronto, has had this program for 3 years now, and incidents of domestic abuse have fallen dramatically. The police are now wondering if the actual number of cases are down, or are fewer being reported?

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

We have the same law here in Texas, Don. If the cops have to separate a man and wife, SOMEBODY is going to jail and pehaps both for being a fucking public nuisance. And all the beat cops I know tell me your post is accurate: When the wife sees the cops cuffing the husband, 70% of them - still bleeding from the assault - start shrieking at the police - and sometimes assaults them.

Here's an interesting statistic: In HALF of the spousal/lover abuse cases, the VICTIM is a....MAN.

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

I remember doing some research into this for a class in college. Some of the cases I read were extremely disturbing. I mostly remember that the overwhelming conclusion is that domestic abuse is about control not violence and that the cycle starts a long time before it comes to physical abuse. In fact, they said that physical abuse is the last stage for the cycle and usually starts because the abuser feels that they do not have enough control. One of the first stages is the abuser isolates the abused from their family and friends. Often claiming that those people are trying to come between them.

Anyway, some of the most disturbing stories I read were things like a man who had brainwashed his wife so much and had so much control over her that when he left home he told her to sit on this particular stool until he returned. He didn’t return one day. The neighbors eventually called the authorities and when they found her she had been sitting there for like three days. She had not moved and when they tried to help her she cried and told them she couldn’t move until he returned.

The other story illustrated that often the physical violence is not accompanied by any anger or argument. It is just a way to maintain control. There was a man that would put his children to bed, kiss them goodnight, go to his room and take off his jewelry and then beet his wife. Every night. The weirdest thing was that some scientists have found that these men actually do not become agitated before they strike but in fact become calmer. Their heart rates go down and their breathing slows.

Obviously these are extreme examples but I found that they really changed the way I saw abusive relationships and how a person could stay after they have been physically abused. Women who aren’t prone to being controlled, for whatever reason, leave early on in the cycle. Those that make it to the actual physical abuse stage have already been conditioned to accept what the abuser gives. I’m sure there are other types of abuse and other cycles of abuse but I only read about this particular type.

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

Bubba, where did you get that statistic about men being victims in 1/2 the cases. That's not what I have seen lately and am interested to find out.

Thanks for wanting to help out our center, but like I said we are building a new shelter and it is going to be a big one, like 125 beds eventually. The problem with that in my opinion is that we can't build something that big and really expect for it to say undisclosed. The community in which we build it will figure it out. Big shelters like that are not the safest, in my opinion. I was hoping that we might build 8 smaller shelters in the Houston Area in different places/neighborhoods. This would help tremendously especially if a woman is found at one shelter, she wouldn't necessarily be transferred to Galveston, or Richmond or the Woodlands.

Domestic violence IS such a complex issues. I think a lot of good points have been made and good questions have been raised. What about shelters for men, if it is true that 50% of victims are men? Which I don't necessarily believe, but there are abused men. What about same sex partner battering? Etc.

The thing about a victim wanting to protect the abuser is true in some cases. There are immigrant women who don't want their husbands/boyfriends deported. We know that in the US if a black man gets arrested he more than likely will face time in prison or might be subject to police brutality or other forms of racism. This is a real issue for black women. They don't want to call the cops.

One thing I forgot to list yesterday is that sometimes a woman stays because she is afraid. If he has threatened her and made good on his threats before, why not believe that he will kill her, or her children, or her pet or himself if she leaves. That's what some women are faced with. We did cover the fact of women being afraid to face life on her own.

And I can tell you that the law is the law, but as a woman of color who grew up in a poor neighborhood I can tell you that it is not always applied equally. The cops rarely came when called, they told him to walk it off if they did. And now having to do trainings with HPD's finest, we've heard some of these same attitudes about DV. What about the cops who are abusers?

I'm saying it is complex.

And just to clarify I am not doing counseling right now. Although I did work at the shelter for 2 1/2 years as a children's counselor. having to talk to mom about how they thought their children might have been affected and then dealing with the effects on the child's development, behavior, emotional status and physical status. Anyway, now I do education to random groups of people. Okay, granted sometimes I go to a school that has placed all the girls they consider "at risk" in a room and I have to talk to them. But sometimes, it is just an English class, or PE class. So, basically I go out and talk about healthy and unhealthy relationships and give them resources.

I get most stressed by the teen boys sometimes. Sometimes they say violence against women doesn't exist, sometimes they say it doesn't affect men, sometimes they say women deserve it. Not all boys, not all the time, but a lot.

Thanks for conversing with me.

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

Sorry, Shelly, I didn't mean to ignore your question. There are studies that show that children who witness domestic violence can become victims or perpetrators in the future. I won't say that it is always the case, but many women who I talked to at the shelter, on the hotline and at the schools have told me that either her parents had that problem, or his parents had that problem.

I also wanted to talk a little about the "cycle of violence". There are a few that have been pointed out. There's one which includes "the honeymoon stage", which I used to use in presentations and then a woman who had been abused spoke after me one night and told me and the audience that she hated that term, 'cause it was not like a honeymoon to her, ever. To respect her and others like her I don't use that anymore and I urge other advocates not to. Because like she said, it makes it seem like this neat little cycle will tell you when the next violent outburst is going to happen and thus makes it preventable or at least you'd know no to be there.

Phase 1- increased tension, anger, blaming and arguing. Phase 2 - threats, battering, and/or sexual abuse. Phase 3 - Calm stage: Partner denies the violence, say they are sorry, and it won't happen again. Partner acts like he did in the beginning of the relationship. Honeymoon phase. And this stage is said to decrease over time.

Another cycle mentioned, I think. Dad hits mom, mom hits older child, older child hits younger child, younger child hits other children and or pet. This one is not 100% accurate and doesn't happen 100% of the time, but I have seen it happen.

We use a tool called the power and control wheel. Where power and control are the hub of the wheel. The center, the most important part, etc. Everything else revolves around that. Coercion and threats, intimidation, emotional abuse, isolation, minimizing, denying and blaming, using the children (making her feel guilty about he children, using the children to relay messages, using visitation to harass her, threating to take the children away), economic abuse, and male privilege or "dominant" privilege (treating her like a servant, making all the big decisions, defining men and women's roles). And all of this is reinforced by physical and sexual violence. And I believe that it is used when the abuser feels like he is losing control.

There is one other cycle that I like to use, but I'll save it for later if anyone is interested.

And oh yeah. We also use the equality wheel as a tool to teach about healthy relationships.

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

Bubba, I'm glad you don't have experience with male-against-female physical abuse, but I wish you wouldn't assume or pretend that it's only as prevalent as female-against-male abuse. That's just plain bullshit perpetuated by men with an interest in hiding the truth.

Another thing: I want to give everyone here the benefit of the doubt and assume that you all realize that I was being sarcastic in the last half of my previous post. However, I've realized that people don't always understand my posts the way I meant them. I was being sarcastic when I said that you should ridicule women in abusive relationships.

Non-sarcastic reassertion of my point: I believe that if you pass negative judgments on women who are abused, then you are part of the problem -- not part of the solution.

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

Gwen, didn't realize you were disagreeing with me about something keepng the victim from her decision to flee from her abuser, and with my guesses at what it could be. All I tried to do was find some common ground between the experience of the abused, and the broader range of behavior I see in people in general. If you're saying in your sarcasm that the behaviors involved are too complex for me to relate to, I'll just have to take your word for it.

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

I read that 50-50 statistic about a year or so ago, I believe, as a short blurb in a PARADE magazine. They were talking about simple assault-domestic violence. I remember being incredulous at the time, because it went counter to everything I'd heard. Well, as it turns out, they were wrong...and so was I for repeating it. I researched the latest postings of the Bureau of Justice statistics and they say that during the period of 1993-98 (which is the last one reported and assessed) 876,340 women were abused by "an intimate" while 160,000 men were abused by "an intimate." These were non-lethal cases. I stand corrected. The good (?) news is that (again, according to them) acts of violence against women are decreasing down from 1.1 million "reported" cases in the previous period. You don't have to tell me that women are innocent victims of unspeakable violence by men. I specialize in reporting the lethal cases and they're sickeningly high and would seem to be on the increase unless we just happen to be in a "hot spot" for this sort of activity. I have covered 38 cases of female homicide and in half of those cases they don't know the identity of the victim. I did just have one case where, after 11 years, they now know who one of them is and have a suspect. As grim as it sounds, in my line of work, that's a victory.

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. "The development of an individual organism from embryo to adult" recapitulates "The evolutionary development and history of a species." I don't know the author, but I use it tongue-in-cheek to say, abuse perpetuates abuse through generations.

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

Tiger Man! Why are you so worthless? I wasn't talking about you at all. Idiot!

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

Bubba, did you mean that the identity of the assailant was unknown when in the 38 cases of women who were killed? Or women killing 38 unknown victims. Seriously.

Okay. I do realize that domestic violence and dating violence in which men are the victims is seriously under-reported anyway. It does exist and men don't tell or leave for number of reasons too, one of them I assume is because of embarrasment. I assume.

However, being that rape, sexual harassment and DV (domestic and dating violence) are ways in which women are continuing to be oppressed, we have to look at the problem as the problem of sexism. Women still don't have equal access to power in this society. And that makes women stay too, doesn't it?

I was talking with a friend yesterday who reminded me that although the women may be the one to slap the guy first in a fight, he will not slap her back. More than likely he will beat the crap out of her to show her his power. And in general, many or most women live in fear of rape, and physical violence and harassment. The same is not true to for men. Men do not fear women. The men I talk to sometimes say they can never be raped, and even those who say anyone can be raped still don't think it can happen to them. It's weird.

Another thing she said is that women suffer greater physical injury in domestic violence and dating violence. Women go to the emergency room with broken bones and gunshots and knife wounds. According to some reports that she read, men do not suffer that kind of injury.

According to the FBI, 30% of all homicides of women are committed at the hands of husbands and boyfriends. The same is true for teens between the ages of 15-19. They don't have a statistic like that for men. I am curious to find out what the percentage is. Bubba?

And in rape cases we know that it is men usually raping men and women and children. Women do it too. I would never say that they don't, but as a woman I live in fear of men.

It is more likely that any future violence will be inflicted on me by a man. And having suffered physical sibling abuse myself and child sexual abuse and sexual harassment all the time. I can say, it has been men. That is my experience. And I know I didn't want it and I didn't deserve it. And I don't want sympathy or pity or judgement, oh that is why she is doing that work. No not really, I am doing this work for the women who are having trouble surviving it. For the women who continue to be affected by it. For the women who haven't had as many successes to keep their self esteem in tact.

What I want is for people to learn ways other than violence to express themselves, I this power and control thing to not work like it has in the past. When a woman can say, "Pssht! Whateva!" if a guy tries to break her spirit, I will be happy. I want perpetrators to be held accountable. And since I still have to hear, it is the victims fault. I still have to work at it.

And yes, I realize that Bubba has been the only one that has done that, I'm glad that everyone else has kept reading and responding. Now you are armed with more information to help change the attitudes out there. Thanks.

Okay I promise this is the only thread I will take pages and pages to post on. :) LM

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

Men do not suffer that kind of injury as a result of DV AS OFTEN, is what my friend said and I meant to say.

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

That does not coincide with what I've read. According to those sources (mostly psychology journals and medical journals) the percentage of very serious injury to men in an abusive relationship is higher then those of women in abusive relationship. Obviously because the number of women being abused is higher then men the number of injuries may be higher but, according to them, the percentage is much higher in men. They attribute this to the inequality of physical power between men and women. Women who are abusers often feel that in order to assert their control over the man they must use a weapon of some sort. Where men who abuse are rarely weaker then the women they abuse and get more satisfaction out of using their hands.

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is the difference between the ideas of domestic abuse and domestic violence. While subtle and often overlapping they are not always the same things. Domestic violence is usually the result of anger, drugs, alcohol, over emotion, etc. Where domestic abuse is, as I’ve read it, usually caused by a pathological need to control someone else.

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

Letty, you rock. I can see why you and Gwen are such good mates.

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

Letty - I meant what I wrote. They're Jane Does. Unknown victim/Unknown Assailant. It's not a funny subject. I'd also like to point out that the figures at DOJ only identify the assailant as "an intimate" so I'm sure there are same-sex figures mixed in. I don't have the time to do all this research, but if you're interested:

www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs

They have reams of stuff you can dig through. To paraphrase Mark Twain, get the facts first and then you can distort them to suit the situation. On the post about men beating up women who slap them first: I've been slapped a couple of times and never retaliated, (probably because I thought I deserved it) but I'm against hitters as a general rule no matter who's doing it. To be truly equal, you can't expect the privilege of initiating violence with immunity. My mother raised both of her sons to "never hit a lady." Her emphasis here was on the last word.

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

One other thought on the woman being battered by a man after slapping him thing: There's some basic human psychology at work here that exhibits itself in the conduct of nations. A single sniper in Vietnam takes a potshot at us? We roll up a couple of tanks and start blowing eight-foot holes in the fucking building he's in. It's going on in Israel right now. You throw a rock at me; I use a machine gun on you. You use a machine gun on me; I use a helicopter gunship with rockets on you. And so on. When my kids were little, the girls (older) thought nothing of slapping my son (younger). He usually retaliated by hitting them harder with a toy or something. But it was the GIRLS who complained of the incident. "Did you hit him?" "Yeah...but he thus and so." He took his lumps and went on but the girls felt a need to report the incident. To draw attention to the fact they'd been hit by a "boy" who'd been told repeatedly that "You just don't hit girls" by me. How does this figure into everything? I don't know, but it's interesting. As a writer, I'm interested in the human psychology at work here because I hope there's some insight. The killers I've talked to behind bars don't show a shred of remorse and most of their violence began as a child.

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

Thank you Jackie! I've heard you rock too!

And thank you Bubba for clarifying that statement. I asked you to clarify it 'cause I didn't understand the statement. Not 'cause I thought it was funny. You know, English is my second language.

And Travis, if you could hook me up with those sources, I'd appreciate it.

I'm not going to have access to a computer for more than a week, but this was interesting. See ya! L.-

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

Sorry I've been lurking lately...lot's of stuff going on...

Anyway, I have an interesting situation. I know this family, and the mom and dad are always talking each other down behind the other's backs...not just Sonny and Cher stuff...harmless sniping.

I'm talking about he claims she's pulled a gun on him, she claims that he hits her and the kids. She claims he's a drug user, he claims she's a control freak, and their kids are just the nicest, well-adjusted-seeming children I have ever met..

Anyway, I have taken a policy of not entagling myself in their private little war...I don't want to be a busy-body, but I also don't want to be turning a blind eye if children being harmed.

I'm a pretty good judge of human nature, generally, but I just have no clue which way is up with this one. They have both done a very good job of undermining each other's credibility, and they each have also undermined their own credibility.

A male friend of mine was recently in an abusive situation, and the weird thing is, that if I had not known him for 15 years, and if he had not been an ex-boyfriend of mine, I would have SWORN that he was the abuser in the situation. The woman was a very convincing liar, but she told me things that I KNEW were not true. She claimed that he had beat her up on a night when we had a computer gaming party at our house, for example. He came over early in the afternoon, and stayed all night. There were several witnesses. She claimed that he beat up the kids, too. It was sick. I caught her in several lies like that, but it's lucky I did, because I was beginning to doubt my own senses, even though I knew this man for so many years.

I'm afraid that my confidence is rattled, and I just don't have any idea what my approach to this family should be. I know that if either of the kids came to me for help, or if I ever saw any signs of abuse on them, I would do something about that, but if either of the parents came to me for help...I don't think I could do much beyond referring them to an advocate...and let it become their problem.

I used to get so sanctimonious about stories that you would here on the news where people in a neighborhood KNEW that there was something wrong in a household...but didn't do anything, and then when tragedy strikes eveyrong asks "Why didn't somebody DO something?"

Well, it's not always so cut and dried as all that, is it? I hate being in this situation and wondering what could happen. I think that the more serious allegations are made up, or eggagerated. They are both too cunning and clever to actually do anything that could give the other the upper hand. It's all about control, and isolation. I think that neither one wants the other one to "win"...KWIM?

Trees

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

I think that with some people who are abused, staying in the relationship is a sort of self-abuse too. Which is obviously tied into a lack of self-confidence like everyone else has mentioned. Some people are very self-destructive but they are unaware of it. They put up with varying forms of abuse, not just because they think or subconsciously think they deserve it, but because they are in a sense trying to hurt themselves. I have a friend who is in an abusive relationship. It's not as black and white as him hitting her. But their relationship is abusive from my perspective. Not only does she put up with crap from him, but I have noticed little things that she does to abuse herself. Not physically, but emotionally. Placing expectations on herself that are incredibly far fetched and she knows deep down are impossible to achieve, that eventually result in her falling so hard that she uses it as a way to beat herself up emotionally.

The more the abuse has progressed within the relationship, the more extreme she becomes in her expectations that she puts on herself, and the more she eventually abuses herself in a sense. The more she abuses herself, the further he pushes, and the more she takes.

I'm at my wits end about what to do for her at this point. Not just because it is killing me to watch her do this slowly over time, but because she has a self-destructive need to push people out of her life who actually have real respect for her. Which in turn causes her to rely on him even more. It's so complicated it hurts my head to sort it all out. Yet it's plain as day and I don't know what to do. Yet I know that there is really nothing I can do.

I have never been able to say "look I think this is bullshit and you need to get out of this relationship" because if I did she would never talk to me again. That's the way she deals with things becuase she is so deeply entrenched in a state of denial. Instead I listen when she needs to talk and I say really neutral things like "You seem really unhappy and you need to decide if staying in this situation is good for you". Not speaking my mind is very difficult for me.

Lately I'm starting to think that I need to get out of my friendship with her because she is in a sense using me as a part of their little cycle. She gets depressed, she breaks down and "confesses" (in a sense) that she is unhappy and gets everything off her chest. Once the emotional intensity is eleviated, the next day she is great, and everything is peachy and I'm left thinking "what just happened there?" I'm the one left worrying about her well being while she falls back into a comfortable state of denial.

Sorry I just realised that I turned my answer into "all about me and my messed up friend". So while I'm at it, anyone have any advice?

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2001

Letty, English isn't MY second language, but it's sometimes hard to tell that when I write things in a hurry.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2001