Hello, Dr. White,

I ask every person I know who understands Greek the following question;

May I ask what is the meaning of 'to teleion' in I Corinthians 13:10?

Also, when will these gifts 'cease' 'be stilled' or 'pass away'?

Thank you very much.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2001

Answers

Hi Connie!

This is an interesting question. My grandmother, a godly Church of Christ lady, told me once she thought 'to teleion', "the perfect" in 1 Cor 13:10 RSV, "when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away", refers to the Bible. I have gathered from discussions with bretheren in the RM tradition that this is a commonly held RM point of view.

Now, I want to be careful here. I in no way want to denigrade the Bible. I have devoted my adult life to its study and exposition and believe it is the word of God and therefore to be obeyed. But looking at the Greek here, I think the text does not allow for this to be a tenable interpretation.

TELEION is a process word. From it we get the "teleological" argument for God's existence--the argument that there is purpose and order in creation and therefore of necessity there is a creator.

Paul contrasts TELEION with KATARGEO, to make void or render useless, in verse 8 (tongues and prophecy will pass away, cease) verse 10 (the imperfect will pass away) and verse 11(I gave up--Gk. KATARGEO-- childish ways.) God is working in our lives to bring us to Christlikeness and spiritual maturity--which will ultimatley only come when we are with the Lord (verse 12 "For now we see in a mirror dimlly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood." This verse can, I believe, only be taken to refer to our being with Christ. The canon is complete and closed and yet we do not understand fully.)

I have Christian friends on both sides of the issue of whether tongues and other gifts operate today. I have tried to avoid focusing on this because I am more concerned about the cleanliness of my heart before Christ than whether someone speaks in tongues or not. But one thing Paul is making clear here is that as we move on to Christian maturity any preoccupation with such gifts and manifestations gets laid aside. If when the process of making us holy is complete these things will be null and void, it makes sense to me that as we grow in holiness these things will be less and less important to us. But in 13:13 Paul says faith, hope, and love remain forever, and the greatest is love. This then, is the measuring stick for how we are growing in the Lord, not tongues and prophecy. Even if such are valid today (and I am not arguing that they are) preoccupation with such gifts is a sign of being spiritually infantile. They were vaild in Paul's day, (and I think he thought they would be until the Lord's return) but even so he cautioned about having a fixation on tongues and prophecy.

I believe what Paul is teaching here is similar to what Jesus said to the Pharisees:

(Mat 23:23 NIV) "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law-- justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."

The Corinthians had neglected the weightier matters of faith, hope, and love, and had gotten caught up in tongues and prophecy. Paul is trying to correct their focus to be on what is important.

Whatever "to teleion" is, I believe the thrust of the passage points us to love as the ultimate goal.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2001

Where do you get the idea that a fixation on prophecy was infantile. Paul may have considered the practice that may have been occurring in Corinth of speaking in tongues without interpretation to edify the body to be infantile, but he was very positive toward prohecy. He considered prophecy to be something that edified the body. Hence it would fall into the 'mature' category if done properly.

Also, the instructions for church meetings that Paul leaves involve the order in which prophecies are to be given.

Of course it seems normal Protestant churches, and RM churches, seem to overlook these instructions in the New Testament, put a preacher in the front and follow the traditional liturgy.

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2001

I am only saying that a "fixation" on prophecy was infantile. Both prophecy and tongues have their place, Paul says, as do preaching and works of mercy, and many other edifying things, but they all pale in comparison to faith, hope, and love. It was Paul who said when we come to completion in Christ prophecy would pass away, not me. I am only suggesting that the more mature we become, the more we focus on Christ, the giver, and the less worried we are over the gifts.

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2001

Ephesians 4 tell sus that prophets will be with us till we reach the unity of faith, and come to be a perfect man to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

There is a good structural argument if one follows the 'long thoughts' of Paul in I Corinthians, that when Paul writes about the perfect, he writes about our condition in the resurrection. Paul mentions tongues, prophecy, and then 'when that which is perfect is come.' Then, the next chatpers talk about tongues, prophecy, and the resurrection.

Chapter 13 tells us about love. The important thing is that we love one another. Chapter 14 teaches that if we are to be zealous for spiritual gifts, we should be zealous to edify the body. Prophesying edifies the body of Christ. Paul encourages the Corinthians to zealously desire to prophecy.

In the context of explaining that tongues must be interpreted so that they might edify the body, Paul exhorts the Corinthians to be mature. Later, Paul tells the Corinthians to desire to prophesy, and to forbid not to speak with tongues.

Speaking in tongues without interpretation in a meeting, and eating up the time without eidfying people, is immature. But desiring to prophesy out of a loving desire to edify the body is a mature thing. Nowhere does Paul teach the coveting to prophesy is immature.

If one prophesied without yeielding the floor ot others as Paul instructed, claiming that the spiritual manfiestation was not subject to himself, then that might fall into the category of immature. But if done properly, lovingly, and in order to edify the body, prophecy can be very mature.

There are some who focus on gifts or other external manifestations who do not have enough love or do not focus on Christ. I am not saying that is mature. But Paul does not talk about focusing on gifts VERSUS focusing on Christ. His attitude toward prophesying is very positive. He encourages people to seek to prophesy to edify the body.

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2001

Link,

Today, what does one do when one prophesies?

-- Anonymous, February 20, 2001

Robin,

One speaks as moved by the Holy Spirit.

-- Anonymous, February 20, 2001

Link,

How can I tell when someone is prophesying?

-- Anonymous, February 20, 2001

Some prophecies, as in scripture, are prefaced with 'Thus saith the Lord' type statement. There are other similar statements we see in scripture. 'Thus saith the Holy Ghost.' These prophecies are usually spoken in the first century as from God.

Not every prophecy is so clearly marked by such a phrase as coming from God and spoken as if from God in the first person.

How do we know if someone is prophesying? We have ot figure this out the same way the early Christians did. Does what the speaker says line up withrevealed truth from God? Anyone supposedly prophesying that curses Christ is not speaking from God. Any spirit that says that Christ did not come in the flesh is not from God, etc.

God also gives saints the Spirit, so that they might know the things that have been freely given to them of God. We must learn to discern the working of the Spirit. Some saints have special gifts of disernment of spirits. Sometimes someone will hear another prophecy and sense the Lord speaking through that person.

We are to test and just prophecies in our church community. It is not just an individual thing. Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge, Paul wrote.

We can know prophets by their fruits. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

This is not an exhaustive answer, of course.

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

Has anything been prophesied, since the completion of the Word as we now have it, that I should know about? Anything important that cannot be found in the Word?

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

"It is an evil and Adulterous generation that seeks after signs and wonders." That applied to the Pharisees and still to us today.

Dr. White, once again you generally hit the nail on the head. While, my interpretation of I Cor 13 is that tongues have ceased altogether, those who fixate on it as an issue seem to have "missed the trees for the forest".

-- Anonymous, February 22, 2001

Mark,

Would that be "missed the forest for the trees"? ......missed the "Big Issue" by fixating on the "Smaller Pieces"?

Well, it is off to the forest for me to do some TSI (Timber Stand Improvement) tree cutting....

:-)

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

You got it Robin.

I guess I let one of my "Archie Bunkerisms" slip...:~)

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

Robin wrote, >>Has anything been prophesied, since the completion of the Word as we now have it, that I should know about? Anything important that cannot be found in the Word? <<<

Everything Jesus did and said was important. he is the Word of God. yet, according to John's Gospel, not everything He did was recorded inthe Bible.

There were plenty of prohpecies from God not recorded inteh Bible. E.g. the Bible tells us about the book of Iddo the seer, and makes references to previous prophecies of Michaiah, though it only tells us about that one prophecy. Jonah was alread a prohpet before we are introduced to him in the Bible, and read that later oracle from him.

There were prophecies from God that were not included in the Bible. What we have in the Bible is important in a more universal way for the church. But, according to the Bible, God uses the gift of prophecy to build up the church. If we believe the Bible, then we should value the gift of prohecy. The gift of prophecy is not a challenge ot the Bible. In fact the Bibleis positive about this gift and we shoudl be also.

-- Mr. Robin Cornell (robinc@mwt.net), February 22, 2001.

Mark wrote >>"It is an evil and Adulterous generation that seeks after signs and wonders." That applied to the Pharisees and still to us today.<<

The apostles prayed for signs and wonders. Does that mean that they were wicked and adulterous? Of course not.

To say that a wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign is not to say that to seek a sign is adulterous. The generation Christ was dealing with were wicked adn adulterous, and also seeking a sign. God actually had a prophet to tell one king to ask for a sing. Hezekiah asked isaiah for a sign that he would go up to the temple of the Lord (instead of dying) and God granted the sign.

There is a place for desiring to see signs and wonders, and various other things that glorify the Lord and extend His kingdom. Seeking for God to do signs and wonders is not inherently evil. This is why the apostles could rightly ask for the Lord to manifest such thngs in their day, and God granted their request.

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

Just a thought:

One of the great problems today is that most people fail to see the God provided signs and wonders all around them every day. A thousand years ago, people saw the sun coming up or fire or springtime as wonders from God, and sometimes made mistakes in their attempts to worship. At least they recognized God, as Rom. 1:18-20 indicates they should. Today, many people think they understand the creation of God, and have lost the wonder. They can't do these things themselves, but they do not worship the one who does them.

Perhaps the wickedness is in the seeking, instead of seeing that it is happening all around us.

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

Link,

You responded with several examples of prophesy from Bible times... I specifically asked about prophesy after the Word (the Bible) was complete. I was thinking more in terms of last Sunday, or last week, or last year....

I still don't comprehend what a 'modern day' prophesy might look like....

If you don't mind, may I sincerely take this to a more personal level? I presume that you have heard what you believe to be prophesy.... Can you share what it was that you heard, how you validated it, and how it edified you?

-- Anonymous, February 23, 2001

Yes I have been blessed by some prophecies during the course of my life. I've heard a lot of them over the years, and I'll try to pick through my memory for some good details.

Before I met my wife, she had been depressed because of a relationship with a boyfriend, who it turns out, had another girlfriend. She had been dating this man for 3 years. I remember praying during the Christmas holiday, when my expat friends left town. I started praying about my future wife, and prayed that if she were dating someone else, that the Lord would break that off. Well, in December, my then0-future wife, found out about this man's other girlfriend, and it really broke her heart. They had a pretty innocent relationship, having never even kissed. But they had been dating for three years. My wife didn't have strong ties to her family, so losing this relationship must have been very difficult for her.

She prayed that the Lord would send her her husband. She decided not to date until she met her husband, and prayed to the Lord for that. I had been praying about not dating till I met my wife, and felt that was what the Lord wanted from me.

Before she met me, a few things happened that prepared her for meeting me. One was a vision she had at a bus stop of getting married. The day she met me, she was at her friend's boardinghouse up in her friend's room. She was still feeling bad, wondering why her old boyfriend broke up with her. Her friend told her that she was talented, pretty, she could sing, etc. and that she could get a husband who was rich, a foreigner, good-looking, and a missionary. My wife felt encouraged. (She also considered me to fit into all those categories when she met me. I'm not rich by western standards, but over here $100 a month is a good salary. Reflecting on this later, she considered that her friend had prophesied, though perhaps she didn't realize it.)

My wife had also been praying in the morning and had gotten a passage out of Isaiah about the Lord bringing forth rivers in the desert. She had been praying about her situation with having a broken heart over having lost her boyfriend and felt the Lord gave her this passage about that situation.

We met on her Bible college campus that day. I had been going to that campus because they had a good English language Christian book library, and also because I wanted to talk to the students and share with them some things I'd been learning about church planting, New Testament patterns for meetings, and other such things. I was talking with a student, a young man, in the cafeteria area. Hana, my future wife, saw he was holding guitar and asked him if he knew hot to play a certain song. She actually felt the Lord wanted her to sit down there, but she, as an Asian woman, didn't want to start up a conversation with me out of the blue. So she prayed for wisdom, and sat down asking her friend to play that Christian song.

I introduced myself to her, and continued talking with the seminary student, maybe about the importance of baptism. Hana said she felt the Lord speak to her and tell me I had a gift to teach church planters. That was real confirmation to me, though something I didn't feel worthy to hear. I had hoped to share some things related to this to theology students there steeped in the pastoral-church building tradition. It's something I hope to see manifested in the future.

Hana went home and wrote in her prayer journal her prayer that if the Lord willed, would he give me to her and her to me. She thought about the verses the Lord had shown her that morning, and how this seemed to fit that promise.

One of the few students I already knew at that school was named Yoel. Yoel was a friend of Hana's and before we met that day he had comforted her over the loss of her boyfriend, and feeling depressed. He had told her that the Lord could bring her a husband from America, China, or some other country. Later, Hana thought that this word of encouragement may also have been a prophecy.

Hana and I became friends. that word of knowledge was a good excuse to get in touch with her by phone and have something to talk about. We started spending a lot of time together, but neither of us wanted to officially rush into dating. I kept praying about her. Early on, it seemed like the Lord kept saying she would be my wife. It took a long time for my faith to build up for that, even after we started dating officially, instead of just spending an awful lot of time together as 'friends.' She'd been hurt before. She's such a gifted, wonderful woman. I didn't want to mess up God's plans for her life by marrying her if it wasn't right. There were other factors to that especially motivated me to make sure that she was the exact person the Lord had for me.

One time, I was praying and sensed the Lord telling me a detail about my wife. I wasn't sure if it was the Lord really speaking. I asked, as a sign, that the Lord have Hana tell me that same detail during a conversation. Sure enough, a couple of nights later, she did tell me that. It's personal so I'll omit the detail.

Due to certain difficulties we had to overcome, I would really like to have had someone come from out of the blue and give me a prophetic word that I was hearing God about my wife. I think a lot of people did prophesy, but not the 'Thus saith the Lord' type of prophesying. My wife got a verse she believe the Lord gave her about our relationship (while we were dating and sensed we were heading toward marriage.) it was about two being better than one.

People kept telling us that verse. Maybe one or two other times while we were dating. I don't even remember hearing that used as a marriage verse before this. It makes a nice one, but as far as I know, it is not a stereotypical marriage verse. We married here in Indonesia later, and then when we went back to the US, my parents put on a party. The assistant pastor at my parent's church was at the party. He prayed for us, and gave us this sort of prophetic prayer blessing thing. He laid hands on us, and prayed or prophesied about that same verse from Proverbs, and said that the Lord was a third Strand and the three strand cord. That verse just seemed to follow us around.

While I was dating my wife, she went away on a 6-week missions trip to Borneo, witnessing to reputedly witch doctors (whose heads allegedly came off and flew around when demon spirits came on them,) staying in a Dayak village near a river, teaching children to read, giving a Sunday school seminar, and doing other things like that.

I knew that if we were to marry that year and have the possibility of going to the US around my Christmas vacation from work, we would have to start planning soon. It was June or July. Weddings are harder to put together here. You need to throw a party and the hotels get booked up. I started praying about asking Hana to marry me. I'd always had peace about it when I prayed about this. I took some friends advice about how to make decisions, knelt down and prayed that I believed God wanted me to marry Hana and here are the reasons why. I told God I planned to move ahead and start shopping for an engagement ring. If God didn't want me to ask her, please stop me or take away my peace about it. When I did that, I had a lot more peace about it and had a lot of faith. I had gone through some struggles with things that happened while we were dating- challenges from other people- that we had had to struggle with.

I went out and started ring shopping. I was convinced I would ask Hana to marry me. My birthday was coming up a few days after she returned from Borneo, and I would use that as an excuse to take her out some place nice to ask her to marry me. The Saturday before I asked her, Hana came back on a train.

That night, we went to a young adults meeting at a church I'd been attending. A missionary evangelist who had been living outside of Indonesia for a year was there. He'd prophesied over me before. I remembered that. I would have liked to have had someone prophesy about my decision to marry before I made the decision. By this point, I already had faith to make the decision. I remembered Brother Willard prophesied a times, that if the Lord wanted to confirm my relationship with Hana through a prophecy through brother Willard, I'd be thankful. If not, I'd still be thankful.

That night, I went in. Brother Willard still remembered me and waved 'hi.' he hadn't ever seen Hana. We didn't have a chance to talk before the meeting. At the end of the meeting, Brother Willard asked anyone who wanted to to come up to be prayed for. I was about to make a big decision, so I thought I would go up. I didn't give him the details when he asked to pray for me. He came up to me and asked me if that young woman there sitting next to me was with me. I said yes. he asked me to call her up.

Bro. Willard started prophesying one of those first-person prophecies. I think it started 'My child' and then he prophesied about how the Lord had brought us together and how we would minister together. He didn't say the word marriage, but it was strongly implied.

In a lot of circles, people are a bit eary of those who prophecy marriage over other people they don't know, probably because of abuses that have taken place. Bro. Willard hadn't ever met Hana. After the meeting, I asked him if he were afraid to give prophecies like that. He said he used to be.

Bro. Willard had once prophesied over a friend of mine, whom I knew well, and mentioned that this man was a warrior, and few people knew the things that he had done. I knew some of this guys secrets about covert 'police' activities, his military-style training, his athletic accomplishments from his younger days, and some of his spiritual exploits.

I learned a lot about prophecy in preparing to get married. In the book of John, Caiaphas plotted the death of Christ with others, and said it was better that one man die for the people and that the whole nation perish not. Caiaphas was plotting Christ's death, but John said as High Priest that year, he prophesied that one Man would die for the people.

Peter wrote of the nature of prophecy. In the Old Testament, holy men of old spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. This practice continued into the New Testament, and in the church, men spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. What Peter wrote seems to work as a rule of thumb definition of prophesying. There was some prophesying done on musical instruments in the Bible as well. Perhaps they played according to the leading of the Spirit.

Sometimes people prophesy without even knowing it. At other times, prophecies are given with a 'the Lord says' or some other similar way of identifying it as a prophecy. Some are given in the first person as messages from God. Some prophecies are Bible verses, simple words of encouragement, etc. which the Lord moves people to speak in a certain situation. Some pastors exercise the gift of teaching when expounding on a Bible text, but during their message, they will be moved to say something in particular from the scriptures. Some people experience the preacher talking right into their situation.

Paul really encouraged seeking after the gift of prophecy because of its ability to strengthen the church. His instructions for how to have meetings include some simple guidelines on how to take turns prophesying in meetings in an orderly manner..

Some prophecies seem more sensational, and tell facts that cannot be known by normal means or foretell the future. I've seen some things along this line. One brother in particular ministered prophetically for hours and got incredibly detailed prophecies. He prayed and prophecies over my parents for about half an hour. He prophesied about my Dad's electrical work, their desire and plans for a home, some difficulties my mother had been going through. I don't think anyone at that church even knew my parents. I was invited by the pastor on campus at the university I went to, and hadn't told anyone there about my family. This same minister, at another meeting, prayed for a young woman interested in becoming a Christian. He started praying for some kid named Toby that the Lord would teach him to drive safely. The kids laughed. They knew this kid Toby. That is some of the more 'sensational' stuff I've seen in regard to prophecy.

I used to be in circles where it was common for members of the congregation to spend an extended period of time praying for each other after a meeting. In churches like this, from time to time, people would pray over specific details in other people's lives that they didn't know about. That happened to me before. After a while, I started praying that way. I'd refer to things in other people's lives I didn't know about when I prayed. at first, I wasn't even aware that I was doing it. It was kind of subtle most of the time. I think there is a type of prophetic prayer where the Lord consciously leads people how to pray, perhaps through the gifts of the word of knowledge and the word of wisdom.

One night, I was out with my brother and his friend who liked to go street witnessing while playing hacky sack with people on the street. It was about 2am, and they wanted to go home. I didn't feel it was time yet. I prayed, and sensed that the Lord was giving me the prayer to pray. I hope I get the colors right. I prayed aloud that if it was the Lord's will for us to stay someone would come along with a green hat, a red shirt, and blue shoes. (Maybe it was a red hat and green shirt. I forget what the combination was. I wrote it down in a journal somewhere.)

My brother's friend said now we'd be waiting all night for that to happen. I continued my prayer, asking for it to happen within a certain amount of time- about 2 minutes I think. My brother's friend said that if that happened, he would just pass out on the street.

Well, if memory serves me correctly, there were about ten seconds left, when around the corner came this young fellow of 19 years of age. He was wearing the right color hat, and the right color shirt, but where his shoes blue? The street light was yellow. My brother had met this guy before so we started talking.

We asked him what color his shoes were- blue suede shoes. Sure enough, under white light they were blue. They told him what happened. My brother's friend didn't pass out.

We went off to a quiet area to talk. The young man was running from the police over some sort of legal problem. He told about having gone to a Christian Church once, and considering going up and being baptized, he said, but he just didn't do it. We prayed with the young man that night. I saw him strung out on something later that weekend. I hope we planted a seed.

There are a lot of stories I could tell you. I've learned a little bit about figuring out what prophecies are from the Lord, but I haven't mastered that. I believe that is generally supposed to be an activity that can take place in a church meeting, as the prophets speak two or three and the other judge.

-- Anonymous, February 26, 2001

Link,

Thanks for your answer. It does help me to understand things a bit better.

-- Anonymous, February 26, 2001