I am proposing to the RC, Pat, that all mahjongg/poker games be placed in the archives (*).

The issues, as I see them, are:

1) Are these games worthy of watching/learning? Is there value in having them as a part of points competition? If so, what do they test - reflexes, skill, planning, etc.?

2) Are these really arcade games, in anyhting beyond the literal sense? Some versions of pachinko could be considered arcade games, but require far more luck than skill...

3) Are these games that will attain, at a point, higher scores only due to luck, and not due to a player's skill?

After debate, I would ask Pat to propose a vote on this issue.

Thank-you all. Q.T.Quazar

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), February 17, 2001

Answers

1) The most exciting thing I could imagine happening while watching a mahjong recording would be seeing a powerful hand come together. There's as much strategy in the game as you'd find in gin rummy, basically, so any wild twists in the game would come from luck.

2) There's as much skill involved in playing mahjong as there would be in playing poker, or blackjack, or what have you. It's still debatable whether it's more luck than anything, though, because just like in poker, your strategy will change depending on the opponent's situation. My feeling is that you're at the mercy of the tiles no matter what you do, so it boils down to luck more often than not. So many mahjong games end with both parties looking for one single tile they need to complete their hand.

3) See 2. :)

I'm with Hisa on this issue. Mahjong games are nice to look at the naked chicks. The naughtier the better, I say. But can you imagine a mahjong video game competition? I can hear the commentary now. 'And he discards the white dragon! What an incredible gambit!' No. :) I'm all for playing those games in my spare time, and I do, but I don't see what place they have in the annals of high score history.

Cheers, Brian

-- Brian McLean (bmclean84@hotmail.com), February 17, 2001.

Sorry QT... this one is obvious for me. If it was an arcade game and MAME emulates it in the most recent version - it counts here - wheater I like it or not. This one I definatly know there's quite a bit of skill, and, yes, a good bit of luck - but frankly, every single arcade game seems to have some bit of luck involved.

Therefore, I will vote against the motion when the time comes... GB9

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), February 17, 2001.

I hate shooting games but I don't ask them to be deleted because I know players love that. On the contrary, I have a lot of fun with games like mahjong, poker ladies or shanghai. Cutie, if you don't want any girl to play on marp, just delete all games but streetfighters ...

Vero.

-- Vero (a.veronique@free.fr), February 17, 2001.

sanna play the street figher

-- david oliver (davedude1414@yahoo.com), February 17, 2001.

As much as I'd love to get rid of these, I simply can't. A vote would be fruitless, much like trying eliminate clones from the LB scoring. :) Perhaps another reason to have an alternate LB that measures true skill???

-- Pat (laffaye@mail.com), February 19, 2001.

I'm sorry Pat, but I've completely missed your logic. A vote would be fruitless because...? I thought that was the point of your position.

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), February 19, 2001.

What you are asking me to propose is to remove all LB points from anyone that ever submitted INPs for mahjongg/poker type games. Well my point is that I just had a vote to reduce/eliminate LB points from clones and the idea was not well received. I am quite certain a similar reaction would occur if these 50+ games, which you suggest are not arcade type games, were to be archived and not counted. The current LB system does not measure true skill because scoring is mainly based on total number of INPs and submissions from these "easy", low-skill games. Archiving is not the correct solution.

-- Pat (laffaye@mail.com), February 20, 2001.

Your logic escapes me, Pat. The vote you proposed was for all games, all clones, and the vote was about scoring methodology. I was proposing a vote on a specific type of game, for all games of that type -- clones and originals (although to be honest, I don't think there's any mahjongg clones, and few poker ones, so it isn't even remotely similar to the first vote)

If you have a real reason not to want to propose the vote, like the lack of debate on this post so far, so be it. Otherwise I request again that you post a vote, and that gb9 links it to the news page. If I'm being unreasonable with this request, or missing the point, then let other MARPers speak up, but I've studied logic for years and I can't see where your synthesis is coming from.

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), February 20, 2001.

Well, as a mathematician, I also studied logic during years, and Pat's logic sounds clear to me : mahjong IS a game and deserves his place on marp ; I know the problem is that there is a lot of mahjongs (like there is a lot of streetfighters or wonderboy) and it's not just that someone mastering mahjong or sf can earn 2000 LB pts when someone mastering a game with no clone (like anteater!) only earn 100 LB pts

The only solution to avoid that was to "merge" pts for similar games (very good idea by Pat) but this was unanimously and recently rejected by quite all marpers (except me and maybe an other one, don't remember)

So what remains ? the fact that we keep all clones ; there is nothing else to vote : archiving a type of game would amount to make a segregation (why mahjong ? why not soukobdx ? or puzlclub ? or puzznic ? or shanghai ? no skill, only reflexion ... the list is long and debates would be endless)

Sorry, QT, there is not only skill games in arcade ; "segregation is the way to chaos" (don't remember whose sentence it is) and don't forget that this is this type of "choices" which lead you out off rules coordinator chair ; if you don't like mahjong , very simple : don't play it !!!

Phil

-- Phil (plamat@club-internet.fr), February 20, 2001.

The two statements are not equivalent. A might imply B, but is not equivalent to, simple as that. While the vote may have a simliarity, it deals with a different universal qualifier than Pat's.

And I'm not taking sides, although you already know how I'm voting. I like real mahjongg, and I don'tmind the arcade mahjongg, i just don't think it or poker belong on MARP, for reasons listed in the first post. This is just a debate post and a request for a vote, that's all.

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), February 20, 2001.

Shut up QT, we are familiar with your logic already.

-- TJT (tiihoto@hotmail.com), February 21, 2001.

How old are you Tommi? 30-something? Learn to debate like a civilized ADULT, please.

-Q.T.Quazar

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), February 21, 2001.

QT, I'll tell my daddy you said that. He'll come and beat your ass.

-- TJT (tiihoto@hotmail.com), February 21, 2001.