Oxford Whatever?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread

In a recent thread, John made reference to a reference (in the last two months) to a book from "Oxford" publishers which mentions the number of off-shoot non-Catholic Christian sects that have materialized since the reformation. Dave Armstrong has quoted the number to be in excess of 24,000. I would like to discover this reference if anyone has come across it. These threads are so confusing I can't even find John's reference to the "reference".

If you have found it, could you please let me know. I would much appreciate it!

Mary, Mother of Mercy and St. James, pray for us!

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 15, 2001

Answers

Still looking for you, Ed. Came across this page, though, while searching. Everyone should read this! http://home.earthlink.net/~frjerry/

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 15, 2001.

Ed...taken from this page...http://www.jps.net/bstanley/index.htm

There are approximately 28,000 non-Catholic Christian sects in the world today with more new ones appearing every week. All use the same Bible, yet each interpret it differently, and consequently they end up teaching "another Gospel" (Galatians 1:8-9). The sad part is that they all try to justify their existence, and thus their actions of further dividing the Body of Christ by claiming, "The Holy Spirit Told Me".

Common sense and reasoning by intelligent people quickly show that this mentality is not in line with the teaching of Jesus Christ, as He called for "One Fold with One Shepherd" (John 10:16). These divisions of the Body of Christ are in opposition to the teaching of Holy Scripture, so how could it ever be possible that the Holy Spirit is prompting those who cause them?

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, THAT YOU ALL SAY THE SAME THING; AND THAT THERE BE NO DISSENSIONS AMONG YOU, BUT THAT YOU MAY BE PERFECTLY UNITED IN ONE MIND AND IN ONE JUDGMENT." 1Corinthians 1:10. See also 1Corinthians 11:17-22

"Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand." Matthew 12:25

"Anyone who advances and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ, HAS NOT GOD; he who abides in the doctrine, he has both the Father and the Son." 2John 1:9 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- The Bible is very explicit that those who cause these divisions are not from GOD, so therefore, the Holy Spirit could not possibly be prompting them.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of GOD; because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. By this is the spirit of GOD known: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh , is of GOD. AND EVERY SPIRIT THAT SEVERS JESUS, IS NOT OF GOD, BUT IS OF ANTICHRIST, of whom you have heard that He is coming, and now is already in the world." 1John 4:1-3

Satan will give you 99 truths if he can get you to swallow one lie.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- "And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, BECAUSE IT NEITHER SEES HIM NOR KNOWS HIM. BUT YOU SHALL KNOW HIM, BECAUSE HE WILL DWELL WITH YOU AND BE IN YOU." John 14:16-17

"Many things yet I have to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when HE, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, has come, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THE TRUTH. For He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He will hear He will speak, and THE THINGS THAT ARE TO COME HE WILL DECLARE TO YOU." John 16:12-13

What message do these verses convey? *To whom does Jesus speak in these verses? He spoke to the Apostles, and He told them that the Holy Spirit will dwell within the Church which He will found. *That ALL is NOT in the Bible since there will be future declarations. *That since truth is ONE, and is the person of Jesus Christ (John 14:6), that the Spirit certainly cannot declare a differing truth to each of 28,000 divisions in His Body.

So how do we answer each of those 28,000 divisions when they make the claim that "The Holy Spirit told them"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- For those who claim that "The Holy Spirit told them", I must ask, "Are there 28,000 Holy Spirits telling each division a different truth, or is there only one Spirit which speaks truth to the only Church which Jesus Christ founded and speaks lies to the rest?" Which option would answer the question? I say neither does, for Holy Scripture gives us the answer.

"We are of GOD. He who knows GOD listens to us; he who is not of GOD does not listen to us. BY THIS WE KNOW THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE SPIRIT OF ERROR." 1John 4:6

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- So there are two spirits, one of truth and one of error. The one of truth is in the Church of truth, the Church which Jesus Christ founded. The one of error is in the churches which are producing the 28,000 divisions of the Body of Christ.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- © Written by Bob Stanley, August 21, 2000 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 15, 2001.


Oh Ed..I must say thank you!!!! This little treasure hunt I went on for you took me to new and exciting places!!!!! I've bookmarked several new sites to go back and peruse at a leisurely pace later. But here's a place to go with messages boards, single Catholics can meet, help for those who have strayed from the Church, FREE books and audio cassettes (free..no fine print...no shipping and handling...FREE!!!!). Looks like a wonderful site! http://www.catholicity.com/

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 15, 2001.

Jmj

Hello, Ed.
What you remember is my quoting an article by convert/apologist James Akin (in a recent issue of "The Coming Home Journal").
[I read the hard copy last month, but just found it on-line here.]
James writes: "It is the failure of the prohibition of the right of private judgment [in scriptural interpretation] that has resulted in the over 20,000 Christian Protestant denominations listed in the Oxford University Press's 'World Christian Encyclopedia.'"

I'm wondering where you came across a Dave Armstrong reference to the vast number of denominations, without also getting the Oxford information. You see, he has a whole "page" at his site (here) devoted to a "debate" about this subject. The books, editors, dates, publishing houses, etc., are given there.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 16, 2001.


Jackie & John:

Thanks for the help. Jackie, I wrote the gentlemen mentioned in your article, Mr. Bob Stanley and all he could tell me was the quote came from the “Encyclopaedia of Christianity’. This now makes sense in light of what John has just revealed to us. Dave Armstrong used the quote in one of his papers here on the net but failed to give its source. As I use this statistic more and more to debunk the notion the reformists hold the one true interpretation of scripture, in all fairness, I would like to be sure of its accuracy. Thanks again.

St. James and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 17, 2001.



John:

I checked out the two sites you recommended and again I thank you. It was exactly what I was looking for. In my search I came across an advertisement for the encyclopaedia in question and found these incredible numbers quoted from its contents:

A global, regional, and national census of two billion Christians in 238 countries Detailed data on 33,800 Christian denominations, 3,445,000 churches or assemblies, 12,000 dioceses, 29,500 councils, alliances, or fellowships, and 200,000 other organizations. Index of 15,000 Christian, Jewish, Muslim and other religious organizations around the world. Religious, linguistic, and other data on 12,600 distinct ethnoreligious groups. Miniprofiles of the 270 largest world religions. Classification of 13,000 languages and dialects. The 470 names for God in 910 languages. summary tables of 167 social, political and religious indicators for 238 countries of the world’s cultures

Isn’t it amazing how man can complicate things if left to his own doing?

St. James, and Mary our Mother of all peoples pray for all faiths.

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 17, 2001.


That just takes my breath away, Ed. Thanks for sharing it.
Every time I heard the number of denominations in the past five years (20,000 ... 24,000 ... 28,000), I would heard people say that the number was increasing by at least one per week, as the self-proclaimed "Prophets" of the world went about opening their store-front churches (now very often industrial-mall churches).
That rate of increase turned out to be an understatement, if the number is now up to 33,800. Lord, have mercy!
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 17, 2001.

From Jackiea's post of Feb. 15..from Bob Stanley..

"The BIBLE is very explicit that those who cause divisions, are not from God, so therefore, the Holy Spirit could not possibly be prompting them."

Yes, the BIBLE , that all Christians use. Not the Catechism that only the Catholic religion uses, or the sacred traditions that only the Catholic religion uses.

You say you all believe the same, obey one church ....................We have seen John correct Eugene, John correct Jackiea, Eugene corrects John, Chris corrects Eugene, and Eugene turns around and corrects Chris.

I am in Christ Jesus and He is in me. Jesus is the Lord of me. His Holy Spirit dwells in me. And YES He gives me Words of Knowledge, that I would have no other way of knowing.

I believe in the one and only God, creator and sustainer of all things, infinite in love, perfect in judgements and unchanging in mercy. God exists eternally in three persons' Father,Son and Holy Spirit; In the divine inspiration, truthfulness and authority of both the Old and New Testaments, the only written Word of God, without error in all it affirms. The Scriptures are the only infallible rule of faith and practice. The Holy Spirit preserves God's Word in the church today and by it speaks God's truth to people of every age; That human beings were created in the image of God. This image was marred in every part through the disobedience of our first parents, and fellowship with God was broken. God, by His grace, restores moral sensibility to all humankind and enables all to respond to His love and to accept His saving grace, if they will; That God calls all believers to entire sanctification in a moment of full surrender and faith subsequent to their new birth in Christ. Through sanctifying grace the Holy Spirit delivers them from all rebellion toward God, and makes possible wholehearted love for God and for others. This grace does not make believers faultless nor prevent the possibility of their falling into sin. They must live daily by faith in the forgiveness and cleansing provided for them in Jesus Christ; That believers are assured that they are children of God by the inward witness of God's Spirit with their spirits, by faith in the gracious promises of God's Word, and by the fruit of the spirit in their lives; That Jesus Christ is God's Son incarnate, born of the virgin Mary. He died for the sins of all, taking on Himself, on behalf of sinful persons, God's judgement upon sin. In His body He rose from the grave and ascended to the right hand of the Father where He intercedes for us; That the Holy Spirit is God present and active in the world. The Holy Spirit was given to the church in His fullness at Pentecost. By the Spirit, Christ lives in His church, the gospel is proclaimed and the kingdom of God is manifested in the world; That God graciously justifies and regenerates all who trust in Jesus Christ. Believers become children of God and begin to live in holiness through faith in Christ and the sanctifying Spirit; That the church is the people of God composed of all those who believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. The church is Christ's body; it is visible in the world wherever believers, in obedience of faith, hear the Word, recieve the sacraments, and live as disciples; In the personal return of Jesus Christ, in the bodily resurrection of all persons, in final judgement, and in eternal reward and punishment; In God's ultimate victory over Satan and all evil and the establishment of His perfect kingdom in a new heaven and a new earth.

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 18, 2001.


So, is that like, ya'lls Apostles Creed or something? Just curious.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 18, 2001.

Dear Jackie, --All of Susan's messages are malicious toward the Catholic Church. We have all experienced, in this forum, the indirect but clear suggestions Susan makes. Give up this Church. Give up the Virgin Mary and all your illusions about her. Give up your Creed, your Tradition, your Mass. Your baptism, your penance, your saints. Give up all those things the devil hates! You are free of that Church, if you follow me; SSM, non-Catholic, ''follower'' of Jesus / --What do you want a Church for? (The devil hates the Church; or didn't you know?) Whose side is Susan on?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 18, 2001.


Susan:

You raised an interesting question when you said, “You say you all believe the same, obey one church ....................We have seen John correct Eugene, John correct Jackiea, Eugene corrects John, Chris corrects Eugene, and Eugene turns around and corrects Chris.” As a Catholic, I readily admit to this. Yes, Catholics are open to honest and informed debate about the one true interpretation of the Word. You see, we are only permitted to have one and only one, interpretation of God’s Holy Word. Sometimes some of us mis-read or misinterpret what is being said or require more information in the way of clarification of the Word and our Catholic brothers and sisters, right up to the Pope himself (when he speaks “ex-cathedra”), are ever-willing to clarify points of contention so that our interpretation remains one, pure, unchanged, unedited and complete, as in the days of Jesus' time, and earlier, when the Sacred Author gave it to us along with Sacred Tradition (refer Chris Butler’s recent post). This is what has kept the Word true, lasting and unchanged for 2000 years.

The reason you, as a non-Catholic Christian do not have the same occurrence in your faith is that if you don’t particularly agree with the interpretation being proposed by your sect, then all you have to do is form your own new interpretation. Of course this is always done under the “guidance and inspiration” of the Holy Spirit and voila!!! We now have 33,801 non-Catholic Christian interpretations of God’s Holy Word. You know, I am always puzzled with the creation of each new interpretation. Susan, maybe you can answer something for me? With each new interpretation, why do the “inspired” not remove all references to Jesus saying He “would be with you always”? How can He be with something (the new interpretation) if it doesn’t exist for 2000 years. I find this very confusing, not to mention very damaging to an aspiring new “true” faith.

As you have pointed out, Bob Stanley is correct when he says, "The BIBLE is very explicit that those who cause divisions, are not from God, so therefore, the Holy Spirit could not possibly be prompting them." Susan, he wasn’t referring to the Catholic Church, on the contrary, he was referring to what has happened to the Word in recent times. There has been one and only one Catholic interpretation of the Word for 2000 years. There are 33,800 non-Catholic Christian “divisions” or “interpretations” (since they have been founded on sola scriptura only) in the last 500 years alone (World Christian Encyclopedia, Oxford University Press). Susan, yours is among them. When you find out which of the 33,800 interpretations is the “one true” interpretation, would you please let me know. I honestly don’t expect an answer from you. We Catholics, in this forum, have been asking this same question for three years now, but to no avail. When the subject is raised, the debate over this question invariably comes to very abrupt halt.

St. James, and Mary, Our Blessed Mother, pray for the light of heavenly Truth to shine upon all peoples.

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 18, 2001.


Jmj

"'You say you all believe the same, obey one church .................... We have seen John correct Eugene, John correct Jackiea, Eugene corrects John, Chris corrects Eugene, and Eugene turns around and corrects Chris.' As a Catholic, I readily admit to this. Yes, Catholics are open to honest and informed debate about the one true interpretation of the Word." [EL, quoting SM]

Thank you, Ed, for this helpful reply to Susan. I would like to add something important, for further clarification.

Susan, having been a Catholic, is familiar with the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds, which express the most vital, "core" elements of our beliefs. About these, you and I and Jackiea and Chris and Anthony and Eugene and Enrique (and others who are trying to be good Catholics) do not have debates. We embrace these and try our best to understand them, even when they may relate to theological mysteries. We assent to these with "divine and Catholic faith," unhesitatingly.

Then, as if a "concentric ring" around these core credal beliefs, there are other doctrines that the Church teaches us. These too are known to us by divine revelation -- imparted via the Scriptures or Sacred Tradition, but they are not mentioned in the Apostles' or Nicene Creed. Just two of many possible examples may be the mortal sinfulness of certain acts, the perpetual virginity of Mary. Again, about these, you and I and Jackiea and Chris and Anthony and Eugene and Enrique (and others who are trying to be good Catholics) do not normally have any disagreements. We embrace these, trying our best to understand them.

But there are also certain matters of doctrine that are not so clear-cut as the ones I have just mentioned -- certain "not yet fully developed" matters that are difficult for some of us to understand (e.g., the death penalty, the creation of the human soul, etc.) -- and matters that may not have been well taught to us by our pastors. And there are ongoing events occurring in the Church around the world -- including private revelations, biotechnological "inventions," and new documents (like the 1992 Catechism) that are not automatically 100% clear. These are the kinds of things that we are most likely to discuss/debate -- and, about these, we sometimes even have to "correct" each other.

St. James, pray for us. Virgin most faithful, pray for us.
God bless you.
John
PS: I wonder if Susan realizes that Catholics believe almost everything that she mentioned in her creed.

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 18, 2001.


"Yes, the BIBLE , that all Christians use. Not the Catechism that only the Catholic religion uses, or the sacred traditions that only the Catholic religion uses. "

Try again...which Bible? You mean the one "lightened" since it's compilation?

It seems to me that Luther caused division, Calvin caused division, Henry VIII CERTAINLY caused division. Come to think of it, division seems to be the foundation and lifeblood of the PROTESTant movement (how do you think it got it's name?)!

PS the CCC is not held to be holy...it is an explanation book...ever pick up a concordance? same basic idea.

As far as Sacred Tradition...it is the oral component to the Word, just as important as the seven books you thought were too heavy or any other word inspired by God. (and don't give me some line about those books being inferior, because at least the KJV included them at first, along with Luther's first translation. They we're only dropped when the started to cause "problems"). .....................................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 18, 2001.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ