Dear Friends on Forum,
Here's an excerpt from one hard-line protestant's past postings. In a way it can be productive here, showing the spirit in which some ''Christians'' visit here. Is charity served by leaving this kind of muck and making a quick escape through the back door?

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* * * * The Catholic religion has a history of taking the money of poor widows in order to say masses for the dead (which do no good) and collecting the material possessions of nuns. In Italy, the heart of Roman Catholicism, there is an often used saying that goes, "Without money, they don't sing the mass." That is really pitiful on several fronts--1) mass is blasphemous and people who trust in it are hell- bound 2) there's no such thing as purgatory and 3) the gift of God is without price. Roman Catholicism today is probably the wealthiest government in the world. It owns a good share of America's hospitals and has healthy real estate interests. The bottom line is, if you want to get right with God, you have to go through His Son, Jesus Christ, not some religious organization -- Cathy Moss (ccmoss@netliner.com), January 13, 2001.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 11, 2001

Answers

Cathy subsequently became furious with me; after a remark I made. She'd savaged the Catholic devotion to Mary the Mother of Our Saviour; and I said that everywhere the Mother of God is maligned the presence of Satan is evident to a Catholic. She retired from this forum never to return again.

It ocurrs to me the above post was far from kind to Catholics. She couldn't win, so she left. Others will surely come. I believe the devil is always sending relay after relay into the Catholic community, to sow discord and hate.

*Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, Have mercy on us! Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for us! Saint James, Pray for this forum!*

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 11, 2001.

Have no fear, Eugene.

Revelation 20:
9: And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
10: and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

God bless you and give you strength.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 11, 2001.

The beloved city being Jerusalem of course.

-- dean (dd4@yahoo.com), February 11, 2001.

Yes, Dean. Jerusalem. But not "old Jerusalem."
Rather, the new, heavenly Jerusalem, home of believers.
And thus the new Jerusalem is a metaphor for the Church, the Bride of Christ -- as made more clear in the next chapter of Revelation.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 11, 2001.

Hey, Eugene..I thought of you today. I heard a Lyle Lovett song on the radio. The title and part sung throughout (which made me think of your attitude towards non-Catholics) is That's right....you're not from Texas but Texas wants you anyways. :)

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 11, 2001.

[edit for content. Moderator]

-- Jesus saves thats why I follow him (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), February 13, 2001.

the only way Purgatory is not "in God's Word" is if you believe God's Word is BibleLite, and not the full Bible as understood by *all* Christians for the first 1500 years of the faith. following your logic, when was the Holy Spirit lying to us? Then or now? you can't have it both ways, no matter how hard you try.

And come on, "a man named Ron speaking in a large northwestern city"!?!?!? What kind of fools do you take us for!?!?!? That would be a poor advertisement for TOOTHPASTE!

Try this, "I'm not a theologian, but I play one on the internet..."

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-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 13, 2001.

Dear Anthony--
Without wishing to beat up on the poor guy. Isn't AlexJr in this context actually pretty good news, for this forum?

Just think. This is the best Satan can send us! I was warning a day ago, look out, a ''heavyweight'' might show up. We'll have to pray and have faith, just in case.

The devil picks his agent for the job. AlexJr. Don't you care for cake, Anthony? Lol!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 14, 2001.

Oh, you're right...I just can't seem to type fast enough to keep up with him...I suppose that's the benefit to cut-and-paste.

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-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.

Greetings: Gods word says I will give you wisdom that man cannot come up against it. It is the Spirit that you can't fight whom Jesus gives to those whom except as savior. The Spirit speaks I listen and so I write, that God may reveal to others the promise. To God be the glory.

-- The Spirit quickith thee, Alex is saved y Jesus (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), February 14, 2001.

Dear AlexJr; / Are you a hard-line Protestant? No? A hard-line born again believer? No.

A hard-line nincompoop? ''--Uh, Yaah!'' You have a relative in show business? Josay Jimenez?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 14, 2001.

God gives that wisdom, me buck-o, not you. God has told us who he would give authority to speak in His name, and your name isn't on that list, neither is mine.

since we're on the topic of wisdom, and since you obviously believe this is acceptable ("Maccabees was never part of God's Word"), when is it okay to delete Scripture? Is there any particular criteria, or is it just when God's Word comes into conflict with your message. There's something to be said about the fact that the Church has NEVER deleted a single word of the Bible, yet protestants trimmed whole books. And they didn't even do that right away (first versions of KJV), only after certain passages were used against their precious "reformation."

Riddle me that, jr ...................................................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.

Jesus never quoted from any of your 6 books, if you had Gods wisdom you would know what the word of life means. You would know to claim 6 books that are not in Gods word is to suffer the plagues in the Book of Revelations. Jesus and the apostels quoted many books but never from the 6 Books that you claim-because they aren't divine they are of the world.Read Galations 5:19-21 that is the operation of all who reject Gods truth of His 66 books. Jesus saves, Amen

-- Alex is saved by Jesus (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), February 14, 2001.

Jesus never quoted from Ezra, or Nehemiah either. Why didn't you delete them?

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-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.

Did you know the Protestant and Catholic church is predicted in the last days to be blind, the same thing through the Scriptures, with Christ on the outside trying to get in? "Because thou sayest I am rich and have need of nothing, knowest thou not that thou art miserable, poor, wretched, naked, and blind, and don't know it!" Revelation 3. There you are, back to the blindness again, trampling over the things of God as if they--they didn't mean nothing to them, scoffing and making fun of it; that's what the Bible said.

But to the church, the Bride, the rapture is a revelation to her. It's revealed to her, that the revelation, the true Bride of Christ will be waiting for that revelation of the rapture. Now, it is a revelation, for the revelation is faith. You cannot have a revelation without it being faith. Faith is a revelation, because it's something that's revealed to you. Faith is a revelation. Faith is something that has been revealed to you like it was to Abraham, that could call anything contrary to what had been revealed to him as though it wasn't so. Now, faith... That's what faith is, is the revelation of God. The church is built upon a revelation, the whole entire body.

In the Bible... Cain and Abel didn't have a Bible to read, but it was revealed to Abel by faith, which is a revelation. Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than that of Cain, which God testified that he was righteous. When Jesus was asked here in Matthew 16:17 and 18... We haven't time to read it, but if you want to write it down. He said, "Who does man say I, the Son of man, am?"--- One of them said, "You're Moses, Elias, or someone."---- He said, "But who do you say I am?"---- He said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God."---- He said, "Blessed art thou, Simon, son of Jonas, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you; My Father which is in heaven has revealed this to you. Upon this rock (the spiritual revelation of who God is, who Jesus is, and He is the revelation of God, God made in flesh and revealed to the world. He was in the world; God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, revealing what God was in a body of flesh.)..." "Thou art the Christ, the Anointed One, the Son of God."

He said, "Flesh and blood never revealed this to you, but My Father which is in heaven has revealed this to you. Upon this rock, I'll build My church (the revelation of the Word in It's season)--I'll build My church and the gates of hell cannot prevail against it."

-- William (prophet@email.com), February 15, 2001.

"trampling over the things of God as if they--they didn't mean nothing to them"

Oh, like cutting books from the Bible and eliminating the Sacraments? Not only eliminating them, but slandering these vehicles of God's love for us. Yeah, that sounds about right...

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-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 15, 2001.

Anthony,

That's got to be the best, most concise answer possible!

Strong work,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 15, 2001.

6 Books? Did Jesus ever quote them? Jesus who said I am the way the truth and the life. Now if Jesus is truth why would he not use those 6 books? Gods word talks about Jesus being sacrificed for our sins but never does his word mention sacraments? If Jesus is truth and sets us free, why would anyone go beyond his freedom, wich is to reject Gods gift of love Jesus. In the book of Acts those in Berea questioned the Apostels words, so they searched the scriptures to see if they were true. Anthony you make many claims that Gods word does not back up, and those who are wise will search the scriptures of truth. Are you wise?

-- Jesus leads Alex and all who trust in him (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), February 15, 2001.

Did Jesus quote ALL of the books you recognise? No He did not, and so quotation is an invalid test of legitimacy.

No, His Word DOES mention, describe, and/or justify the Sacraments. The word "sacrament" doesn't appear (to my knowledge), at least in English, but I think we're all intelligent enough to know that modern- english semantics do not apply ("Eucharist" appears, but only in the original Greek)

I have given full quotes on The Eucharist The Papacy The Sacraments

at least four or five times apiece. But like I have said, when I provide them you ignore them. Nevertheless, I will try one more:

Jn1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus is the incarnate Logos, or Word, who reveals the Father. At the time those words were written, 21 books made up the Law 9Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1Samuel, 2Samuel, 1Kings, 2Kings, 1Chronicles, 2Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, 1Maccabees, 2Maccabees)

7 "Wisdom Books" made up "the Writings" (Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Quheleth, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Sirach)

and 18 Prophetic Books made up "the Prophets" (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Baruch, Exekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi)

Thus 46 Old Testament books and most of the New Testament ones as well were included in the phrase "the Word." When you delete parts of the Word, you are not only tampering with God's Word, but you are attacking Jesus Himself.

If you want quotes for the other stuff, go back and find the first time I provided them (or the second...or the third...or the...) ...............................................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 15, 2001.

Anthony,

Not to nitpick, but why bother responding to Alex in such a detailed fashion? If he didn't get the point about Ezra and Nehemiah, he's not going to get this either. OTOH someone else reading probably Would get what you were saying the first time, and so wouldn't need the subsequent post.

An "A" for effort though, and don't ask why it concerns me in the first place, :-)

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 15, 2001.

For as long as he posts here, if I can respond with something I feel is worth saying, I will. Not for his sake, but for later readers. As you said, I'm sure they must have understood my first answer, but I really feel that leaving something like that without a reply looks bad. ..................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 15, 2001.

Frank & Anthony,
Please read your posts again -- just above mine.
Anthony, your final words are so telling: "I really feel that leaving something like that [Junior's errors] without a reply looks bad."
This is why I say that it is time for Junior to move along (in an enforced manner). He and certain other people whom I will not name [you know who they are] are destroying this forum. I will continue to fight for their permanent removal -- for a while, but not forever. I will have to leave if something radical is not done about this. [Eugene, I know that you disagree, but I am 100% convinced that you are wrong.]

These people are either tools of satan or childish mischief-makers. We have been playing into their hands, and that has got to end. They come here and start up a few useless threads each day, and they post rubbish on another twenty threads. It takes them five minutes or less to do this damage on each thread -- or a total of just two hours of mayhem. But for each five minutes that they spend, one of us has to spend fifteen to thirty minutes refuting, undoing the damage for the benefit of future readers. This is truly pleasing to, and designed by, the evil one.

I had to be away from the Internet for a couple of days. When I came back yesterday (Friday), I spent the afternoon and evening going through the threads to which responses had last been left on 02/14 and 02/15. Since I had to get up this morning at 3:00, I should have gone to bed at 8:30 last night, but I stayed up to 11:50 just to get through the 02/15 threads. I had not even reached the 02/16 threads! And it's all because of these trouble-makers. I looked ahead, just before midnight, and saw that there were 24 -- yes, 24! -- threads dated 02/16. When only decent people were posting here [with an occasional nut case], there might have been four to ten threads updated in one day. But not any more. I say again that this forum is being devastated by at least three little demons who should be banned. They don't give a damn what any of us write. They continue to pour out the same useless poison. They are here only to destroy the Church and the good that we are trying to do. They have outstayed their welcome and now must be prevented from posting.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 17, 2001.

Dear Friends,

Maybe you never noticed, but some posts back I told AlexJr that he should clean up his act. I said I had ''voted no'' to banning him out of here, and was reaching a point where I would no longer help him. He is a disruptive party in here.

I agree to a point with Mr. Gecik; all foul and polluting messages do have to be banned by a moderator. That is a no-brainer

But if a hardline protestant gives us noise here, on doctrinal or moral (abortion, contraception, etc.) subjects --the response ought to be strong opposition and earnest discussion, not expulsion!

Banning that type leaves the members of this forum patting one another on the back and engaging in ''happy talk''. As a spiritual work of mercy, our obligation here should be serious discussions and settling of disputes with outsiders. They won't get much help elsewhere, because they reject Catholic overtures in any other medium, let's face it. It goes without saying that an AlexJr adds nothing to that level of discussion; and I'm all for cracking down on him. He basically wastes everybody's time now. But posts from those like Bill Butler, William, Eric, and some other rabid anti-Catholics should not be cast out. They should be sternly warned and corrected; as a Spiritual Work of Mercy. Nothing could be more spiritually profitable to the future of the forum. Why, after all did we choose heavenly patrons a few weeks ago? To turn our backs on evangelization? Give God a chance to reach those who act in good faith, I say-- Pardon my persistance on this soap-box! Lol!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 17, 2001.

I agree with both of you. I hate to sound like a broken record but I will say it again. If "real" debates can go on here, so be it. But this wasting of our time and viciousness, I don't want that.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 17, 2001.

Jmj

I am with Jackiea, Eugene.
You may have misunderstood me as advocating immediate, total dismissal of everyone who challenges us, posts false doctrines, etc.
I did not mean that at all.
I think that respectful, productive, debate -- in moderate, manageable quantity -- is fine.

But it's the insulting, unproductive, overwhelming, repetitious, unmanageable nonsense that needs to be banned. Let someone who seems goofy have a reasonable chance to clean up his act, but don't let him run roughshod over us for weeks and weeks -- is my opinion.
You know that I consider it time for Alex to go. But I'm afraid that William, though more able to communicate thoughts than Alex, is stupefyingly repetitious and totally ignores all that we have to say. He does not really contribute anything. To draw from what Chris Butler said about Alex on another thread, William just presents his same five "truths" over and over again (in considerably more words than Alex uses) -- to the benefit of no one. And, finally, I think that Eric is "Dr. TaiChi Oizo," who lost his credibility weeks ago.

God bless you.
St. James, pray for us.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 17, 2001.

Ditto, but I would like to add (and this may include most of william's posts): obvious cut-and-paste jobs that are for reasons other than citation of one's *own* argument.

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-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 17, 2001.