A few threads ago (yikes, I am now measuring my life in "threads"), I posted the text of a letter written by one Robert Pickett to the Commissioner of the IRS that detailed in a babbling way some longstanding complaints that he had with the IRS who had been his former employer. Pickett was the guy who was recently shot on the White House lawn while randomly shooting a pistol.

I thought his letter was interesting as an example of how a person can get caught up in their own little web of imagined persecutions and insults. It did not surprise me to hear that he was a loner. Many outrages have been performed by so-called "troubled loaners". But not all loaners perform outrages and not all outrages are performed by loners. Still.....

Since I am and always have been a loner, I take this category seriously. Many brilliant, creative people have been loners. Some artistes, poets, etc think that their best work is done in the "hermetic" state.

My own thoughts on this keep changing. In the "answers" below, I repeat my answer to my own thread on Pickett's letter. I stand by it but tomorrow my view might be a shade different.

Here is an interesting link that discusses individualism. What do you think about any of this?

INDIVIDUALISM

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), February 09, 2001

Answers

This was my own response to the "Pickett thread"-----

A little man living a little life in a little town. Just another "troubled loner". Ted Kazcynski writ small.

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? If a person exists alone and there is one to know him, is he alive?

Objectivists will say (I think) "YES, the event exists independent of the observer". I am more inclined to say that the event exists only in context. If no one knows you're there, then you're not there.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), February 09, 2001.

I think you need to get laid.

-- (who_let_the_dogs_out@who.who), February 09, 2001.

As Bellah writes, "We find ourselves not independently of other people and institutions, but through them. We never get to the bottom of ourselves on our own. All of our activity goes on in relationships, groups, associations and communities ordered by institutional structures and interpreted by cultural patterns of meaning."

Horse hockey.

Introspection, contemplation and meditation are invaluable activities which do not require nor depend upon groups, associations and communities ordered by institutional structures. These are activities undertaken by the individual specifically for "getting to the bottom of ourselves on our own".

There's no better teacher than experience and no better approach to learning from one's experiences than through thorough self-examination.

To look at Kaczynski and McVeigh as anything but exceptions to the rule is ludicrous.

I will add that I am learning the value of opening up to others through vehicles such as internet fora, chats, and yes even IRL. But my guess is I will until the end of my days remain an individualist, bucking trends and fads, holding tight to my skeptical bent, relying on self - first, last and always. My stubborness and ornery nature will serve to assure that. :)

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), February 09, 2001.

Lars: If no one knows you're there, then you're not there.

If your main focus is leaving a legacy, I agree. Commission a statue of yourself and be done with it.

I have not a shred of interest in being remembered. The time that matters to me is now, this moment. The past is a relic, a fading whisp distorting even as the second hand sounds off TAPS to each moment that was and never will be again. The future exists only in our imaginations.

Your statement saddens me, Lars.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), February 09, 2001.

Ever noticed how many peoples's self esteem is based almost solely on the opinions and behaviour of others.The fashion for "designer" clothing,furniture etc is just a way of self inflating the ego & proclaiming self worth.None of this behaviour is grounded in anything more than purchasing power.

At the risk of being flamed I also agree with Desmond Morris who said that all faiths were based around a reward/punishment "relationship" with a fatherlike figure.

Oh,to be able to stand four square to the wind .

-- Chris (enquiries@griffenmill.com), February 09, 2001.

It saddens me too Rich, but like I said, my views on this wave in the breeze.

You misunderstood me when you mentioned legacy. I have no interest in legacy. I am talking of the here and now. Am I here now? if there is no one to know me but myself? Well, there is God (I hope).

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), February 09, 2001.

Chris--

Desmond Morris! Now there's a name from the past. Wasn't he The Naked Ape guy? You know what I remember most from that book?---that hominids have the biggest penis of all the apes. (How does he know that?)

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), February 09, 2001.

Y'all -- please check out this article; it should help to clear up this issue a bit...

What Is Individualism?

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), February 09, 2001.

But can anyone else know you, Lars? Or better yet, who but you can know yourself? Sure we catch glimpses of each other through interactions such as these. But these are merely pieces of the whole.

To seek for proof of one's existence based upon the confirmation, approval (?) or mere proximity of others is a losing proposition, IMO.

Do I enjoy my time alone? You bet. Can I laugh 'til I cry watching a Monty Python episode without another human being serving as witness to validate the experience? You betcha. I don't need a warm body next to me to know I exist, to laugh, cry, sing or shout. The presence of another is an added bonus, not a requirement for proof of existence.

I think (and feel), therefore I am?

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), February 09, 2001.

There's no response from the site you linked, Eve. I tried www.vix.com as well, to no avail.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), February 09, 2001.

The site is active now. I recall reading this piece a while back. A good primer.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), February 09, 2001.

Nothing exists? I refute it thus!

-- (DrJohnson@Westminster.Abbey), February 09, 2001.

We are all monads, separate, crystalline, we exist unto ourselves------

(from Greek monas "unit"), an elementary individual substance that reflects the order of the world and from which material properties are derived. The term was first used by the Pythagoreans as the name of the beginning number of a series, from which all following numbers derived. Giordano Bruno in De monade, numero et figura liber (1591; "On the Monad, Number, and Figure") described three fundamental types: God, souls, and atoms. The idea of monads was popularized by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz in Monadologia (1714).

In Leibniz's system of metaphysics, monads are basic substances that make up the universe but lack spatial extension and hence are immaterial. Each monad is a unique, indestructible, dynamic, soullike entity whose properties are a function of its perceptions and appetites. Monads have no true causal relation with other monads, but all are perfectly synchronized with each other by God in a preestablished harmony. The objects of the material world are simply appearances of collections of monads.

-- (troubled_loaner@mortgage.bank), February 09, 2001.

Beware!!!!!!!!

If you post on this thread you WILL be questioned by the FBI after Lars shoots up the White House!!!!!!!!!

-- YOU ARE (his@harddrive.now), February 09, 2001.

Rich -- glad ya got to the article, and that it seemed to help.

Anyway, I received an "A" in my philosophy class when I finally submitted a paper proving my professor didn't exist. The problem I have now, though, is now that the school says they have no record of him ever having taught there, and the "A" is no longer on my transcript.

Yet in spite of all that, it's still so cool that I remember all the....the....um....well, how's about I get back to y'all on this?

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), February 09, 2001.

Lars,

I can't speak to individualism tonight, so that may disqualify me from this thread -

HOWEVER

I would like to say that many people have contributed toward the enrichment of my life & most not properly thanked by myself, mind you {this gives you egomainiacs on the board ample time to take a bow}. Instead I hope I've done my best to turn it around for someone else's benefit.

It may sound sappy, but I feel this is the true legacy that I'll leave behind.

-- flora (***@__._), February 09, 2001.

I've certainly always enjoyed you, Flora.

Lars, I never thought of you as a loner. I KNOW Rich is, but I tend to think he overdoes it in that exposure to people [IMO] can (and maybe even SHOULD) contribute to the "richness" of the experience we have when alone. It provides input to the "pondering".

I want to say two things on this, I guess. 1) Someone once said that the need for the company of others had something to do with the lack of enjoyment one found in himself. If you find your own thoughts interesting, there's little need to engage others. 2) My ex- husband's cousin is a Quaker. My ex thought his cousin was REALLY strange, but I still communicate with the guy to this day, and he told me, "I'll always think of you as family." Anyway, this cousin once likened himself to the Unabomber in that he could "see himself" living a life of solitude. I think quite a few folks could do this and HAVE DONE THIS. I don't think there's anything strange in it, and for each of these LONERS who go berserk, there are probably a dozen or more folks who go berserk that have lived lives requiring constant input to amuse themselves.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), February 09, 2001.

flora, you're a treasure; somehow you've almost always gotten at least a smile out of me; or a tear. At times much more.

I spend plenty of time in solitude -- in fact, this winter, in the midst of cleaning the snow and ice off my roof, I sat down up there and immersed myself in the sheer, silent beauty of the snowscapes and snow-laden trees around my house -- just savored every minute of the vast, awesome silence -- absolute silence. And proceeded to lose myself in thought and wonder -- about life, about love, about the infinite, and wondering about God -- including whether He exists at all, and the vast stretches of time and the universe; trying to stretch my mind out as far as it will go. Then letting it all go, laying back...

And I fell in love with every second of life all over again while I was up there -- soaking up how very precious it is -- and how fragile, and how it is so easy to fall into habits, get busy and take these things for granted.

But I absolutely love and need the company of others as well. Not in a dependent way, though. Of course, I can and do love others for the qualities they have that are of value to me -- and that's such a precious, wonderful thing.

But I also see another person -- especially someone who understands me, or even just an acquaintance -- as a sort of mirror -- of myself. And in a basic, simple way, even a pet can affect me like this. But it's not that they have to be like me; it's not that at all. It's where someone else's reaction to me tells me in a brand new way that I'm really alive and affecting this person -- kind of causing their reaction -- I guess you could say they become like a psychological mirror to me. And its exciting when I realize that I've become their mirror as well.

It's late and I'm tired and I think I'm starting to ramble -- I don't know how clear this is, but hope I've somehow made my point.

Sweet dreams, y'all. :)

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), February 10, 2001.

Oh, 'Nita -- it's good to see ya back, girl.

Nite all. Really, this time. (yawwwnnnn)

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), February 10, 2001.

Good Morning.

Flora, you need only cast your line once, reel it in, and an abundance of love will most assuredly be found on your hook, fully prepared for consumption. I know mine was captured by you what seems like ages ago. I can only imagine the impact you have on folks IRL. Perhaps one day I'll be able to judge this myself. I should be so lucky! :)

Eve, you received that "A" in philosophy for convincing your professor that he/she did not exist. There's no way to prove someone truly does not exist.

(Uh, anyone who needs use the facilities, now might be a good time.)

Language cannot encompass all of existence. It is symbology. Inadequate, as are its creators and users. Word games can be fun, though I am like a city slicker on a snipe hunt: Confused and woefully lacking understanding of the subject, not even knowing it is all just a game.

When I use the word ocean, the odds of another person grabbing onto my concept of ocean and experienceing it in your mind's eye as I experience it must surely be miniscule. This would require telepathy complete with heart hook-up. Perhaps even this would not be sufficient. Instead of perfect communication, every minute of every day we silently agree to agree on the vaguest meaning of this symbol and thousands like it.

When I thought the word ocean I heard the surf crashing into the beach, quickly dulling its roar into a whisper and then silence. I smelled the salt on the breeze - yes there was a breeze tagging along on this conceptualization of the word ocean. I caught a fleeting glimpse of various forms of life supported by this ocean. Accompanying these sensations created by myself, as I am not within 30 miles of a beach, I received waves of indescribable sensation affecting me on subtle levels of which I am hardly aware and certainly unable to communicate. All this in a split second.

Anita, how I've missed your presence, your marvelous personal stories, your (some would say) brutal honesty. You are a classic example, as Eve mentioned, of one who holds a mirror in her hand. We may not always like what we see in it, but I am appreciative. And Anita, I am working on poking my head out of the shell more and more each day. It is a gradual process but one that seems to be gathering a head of steam.

Eve, your last post was not a ramble, but a diamond. It wears well on you, each facet complimentary in the extreme. I must divert my eyes else your beauty and brightness blind me - yet I'm drawn to look again and again. Whatever shall I do? Become blinded that I shall see. ;0)

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), February 10, 2001.

Thank you, Rich. You're such a sweetie.

By the way, although the non-existent professor was a joke...

If existence had no beginning, we could never get to now; there'd always be more time we'd have to traverse. Therefore, not only didn't my professor exist, neither do the rest of us.

"See" ya... (hmmm...now given the above, just what did I mean by that?)

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), February 10, 2001.

I could hope against hope you were being literal, Eve. The dreamer dreams the dream. If he's fortunate he awakens from his dream to find the dream has become reality.

Bucket of cold water for Bingo.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), February 10, 2001.