On last night's eppy I heard Carter call his grandfather Jonathan Carter Sr. I thought Carter was the third. I have close captioning on my tv and checked it again and indeed that's what Carter called his grandfather. So how can Carter be the 3rd if his grandfather is Sr. which is also the 3rd? I'm confused about this. Can someone explain this please?

-- Cammie (rmaelhorn@home.com), February 09, 2001

Answers

Cammie. I think I understand what you are asking. Carter's grandfather would be Jonathan (Truman?) Carter Sr. (Sr. = senior) because he was the first to have that name. Then Carter's father would have been named Jonathan Truman Carter Jr. (Jr. = junior) because he was the second with that name. Then our boy Carter would be Jonathan Truman Carter the third because he was the third generation to have that name. Grandpa could also have been called J.T.C. the first and papa could have been called J.T.C. the second but we don't tend to say it that way so much in this country (U.S.A.).

By the way, Carter's parent are alive, right? There just are some perpetual rich people's cruise?

-- violet (violet@pon.net), February 09, 2001.

Yeah that's what I was asking. How can they both basically be John or Johnathan Truman Carter the 3rd or Sr. But I get it now. And yeah supposedly Carters parents are alive. What amazes me is that it's been practically a year since his stabbing and yet no parents in sight.

-- Cammie (rmaelhorn@home.com), February 09, 2001.

I have no clue why his grandparents are the only ones to make an appearance in his life. I was surprised to see how friendly his grandfather was...saying he'd rather be home. I guess it's just because I haven't seen Carter talk to him since Chase ODed, but I guess we know a lot happens off screen.

-- Elaine (mrsclooney78@hotmail.come), February 09, 2001.

"Senior" does not mean "third," it means "first."

-- Cecelia (evilstoat@hotmail.com), February 09, 2001.

Hate to add to the controversy, but isn't Carter's dad's name Roland? So maybe one of his uncle's is JTC Jr./JTC the second?

-- MM (conjuror_3x3@hotmail.com), February 09, 2001.

MM...that has been discussed before that Carter's dad is NOT Jonathan Truman so who knows where the second Jonathan Truman Carter is!

-- amanda (amanda.rehm@home.com), February 09, 2001.

We are going off on this on the newsgroup. Jonathan vs. John. I myself am *verry* confused on this.

As far as Senior, Junior, and 1st, 2nd and 3rd, goes... Here is the what I believe is the convention.

The first person to have the name is known as Senior, and then only if his SON is named after him, in which case the son would be referred to as Junior. Only a son, named after his father, is referred to as Junior. If the son's son (grandson) is again named after his father, (unimaginative!) then he is referred to as "the 3rd" (III).

Examples: John Carter, Sr. (grandfather); John Carter, Jr. (son); John Carter, III (grandson)

Here's another scenario for 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The first person to have the name is usually simply known by that name. If a male descendant *other than his son* is named after him, then that descendant is referred to as "the 2nd" (II). The *next male descendant given the name* is referred to as "the 3rd" (III), whether or not he is "the 2nd's" son. The son of a "2nd" is not usually referred to as "Junior".

Examples: John Carter (Grandfather); John Carter II (grandson); John Carter III (great-grandson)

In other words, the 3rd person to get the name is known as "the 3rd". (And the fourth person to get the name would be "the 4th", etc.) The difference is between "2nd" and "Jr.". In written communication, there would be no "1st's" (I), though Carter may have referred to his grandfather is "the 1st" to clarify for Abby. Instead Carter referred to his grandfather as "Senior."

There is a possibility that Carter addressed his grandfather correctly. Can anyone guess the scenario?

(We are of course, reading waaayy too much into this!)

Sorry this is so long, I just felt it was my duty to inform.

You may refer to me when addressing your wedding invitations. (Insert eye roll here.)

-- S. Trelles (trelles@ix.netcom.com), February 09, 2001.

This is very much off on a tangent, but since we are on "Forms of address 101", the Bishop would properly be referred to as "Your/His Excellency". (Remember, no one seemed to know!) Just thought I'd share.

-- S. Trelles (trelles@ix.netcom.com), February 09, 2001.

S.Trelles, it's nice to know I'm not the only acolyte of Emily Post on this board. I kept wanting to scream when they called him "Bishop", although I suppose it was realistic--who knows offhand how to refer to a bishop (well, except for the two of us).

But you neglected to mention another issue regarding the title of "Senior". (Useless trivia to follow.) No man is ever called "Senior" or "first" during his life. He is simply "John Truman Carter", his son is "junior", his grandson is "the third". However, when the first John Truman Carter dies, his wife is known as "Mrs. John Truman Carter, Sr." to differentiate her from her daughter-in-law. According to Emily Post, "junior" drops the "junior" after his father's death and becomes simply "John Truman Carter", the third becomes "Jr.", and so on down the line. HOwever, in this country, people rarely do this, treating the title of "junior" as if it is part of their given name, and they continue to use it throughout their lives, regardless of who is living or dead. Also, it seems the convention is to use "Senior" as a title as well during life.

More than I'm sure anyone wanted to know. :)

-- Laura Lindstrom (llindstr@law.harvard.edu), February 09, 2001.

Hey about the Bishop, formally they may be referred to as His/Your Excellency, but generally when you're talking with one you just call him Bishop X. This is at least the Catholic tradition. I don't know what Anglicans etc. do.

-- Pacey (mudcrutch@hotmail.com), February 09, 2001.

My grandfather was George Monroe (the first), but never Sr. My uncle was George, Jr and my cousin George III. But when my grandfather died my uncle changed his address to George II. I think alot of it has to do with personal preference.

-- AmyE (roamyn@aol.com), February 09, 2001.

I thought, when talking to a bishop, one could address him as "Father," just as one would a priest. But it's been a looooong time since I've come in contact with a bishop, 'fraid I just don't remember.

-- Cecelia (evilstoat@hotmail.com), February 09, 2001.

Just for the heck of it, I'm gonna leap into the John/Jonathan debate: if one's name is Jonathan, doesn't one generally spell one's nick-name J-O-N, not J-O-H-N? Carter spells his name J-O-H-N (right?), and even if this is an acceptable shortening of Jonathan, I always thought his name was just John, not short for anything.

-- MM (conjuror_3x3@hotmail.com), February 09, 2001.

O.K. You guys have got me hook on this trivia. Can anyone figure out Carter's family tree? As in, how is Chase related to Rebecca DeMornay's character. (Was she married to Chase?, Chase's brother?, Chase's cousin?) Does Carter have siblings?

I must admit I have imagined Carter's parents to be along the lines of Karen on "Will and Grace" out on some life-long whopping-it-up cruise. Have others had thoughts on this?

-- violet (violet@pon.net), February 09, 2001.

I remember an episode from season 1 or 2 where Jerry and Malik find out that Carter's dad is rich and I could have sworn one if them said that his dad's name is Roland. So I guess it could make sense that John is the III while his grandfather is Sr.

-- Cammie (rmaelhorn@home.com), February 10, 2001.

Elaine Nichols is the ex wife of Carter's couson named Douglas.

-- Brenda (jckwfan@aol.com), February 10, 2001.

This is what i've always known about Carter's family. (please keep in mind that i've only seen 3/4 of season 6 and 2 eppys of season5.):

Rolland and Laura Carter are John's parents. Rolland's parents are 'Gamma' and John (johnathan, whatever) Truman Carter. His siblings are: Bobby (deceased) and Barbera. Chase is his cousin. Elane is his 2nd cousin? (don't know last name)

-- Ritaann (er_aussie@hotmail.com), February 10, 2001.

Maybe in the Carter family they spell it Johnathon instead of Jonathon. It could happen. People sometimes play with spellings or just spell things wrong. Our John Carter might have shortened it just to separate himself a little. I did notice that the closed captioning spelled it "Jonathon" but then in last week's Buffy they spelled Dawn's name "Don," so they're not too reliable. (And yes, I usually watch those two shows with closed captioning on because sometimes the dialog is fast and/or quiet & I don't quite catch it.)

Just throwing in my 2 cents. Most likely the answer is that they just messed up. Make up the scenario you like best and believe that. :-)

-- Bonny (bonnyv@netzero.net), February 10, 2001.

Carter's mother's name has never been given. His dad was named as Roland in the first season (and again in the second), but "Laura" as his mother is something from fanfic. His sister, too, is assumed by fanfic writers to be named Barbara, but she's never been named, either. A Barbara was mentioned by Carter and Chase when they were discussing unsuitable family members to run the business, but she wasn't specifically called John's sister.

-- Melissa (Mcaddr@aol.com), February 11, 2001.

Hate to be TOO nit-picky, but when the bishop came in the ambulance, the first thing Luka did was refer to him as "bishop". Dave promptly said to Luka "I think you're suppossed to call him your excellency" to which the bishop replied "Bishop will be fine". I don't know how things usually work. "Bishop" is probably ok in casual situation, "your excellency" in formal ones.

-- Joanne (bucklind@hotmail.com), February 12, 2001.

I am a practicing Catholic and I have noticed that priests (and I assume bishops) will usually let people call them anything that makes the person feel comfortable. Their goal is to establish rapport. So it made sense to me that the ER bishop let Luka call him the name Luka chose. The bishop would have probably said whatever name Luka chose was fine including "Father" "Padre" or probably even his first name.

-- violet (violet@pon.net), February 12, 2001.

I checked around for forms of address on the web and apparently it is ok now to refer to a bishop as "Bishop". HOWEVER, he is still PROPERLY known as "Your Exellency," particularly in written correspondence. If I were writing to a bishop, this is how I would refer to him. So, three quacks for Dave! I must have overlooked that little tidbit.

On the Senior, Junior, III front... I think it has become common to put "Junior" on a kids birth certificate, and I thought they were known as "Junior" all their lives. I know at least one family that does this. "Grandpa" is in his eighties and he STILL goes by "Junior". His pa is long dead. "Grandpa's" son (himself a grandpa!) is in his fifties and he is always referred to as "III". I guess this is out of respect to the original. And here's a fun one. A mom wanted to name her son after his father, but couldn't stand the thought of a "Junior", so the boy is legally "II". That's what it says on the birth certificate.

I guess it's all what you want to do. That's the beauty of America, it's a free country.

-- S. Trelles (trelles@ix.netcom.com), February 14, 2001.

For both "Bishop" and "Senior" -- as they say, the difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than it is in practice.

-- Driad (driad@mailcity.com), February 14, 2001.