On Abortion, and All Who Post On the Topic

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I am pleased to see that the raucous arguments of the past weeks seem to be simmering down, but I sense another one brewing. Therefore, I’m going to try to head it off at the pass.

I speak only for myself, but I am sure that I have many supporters amongst the “regulars.”

As will be seen from a later point, I was “try abstinence commonsense@humanity.com” on another thread. I apologize to the moderator for the failure notice he undoubtedly got due to my phoney address, it shan’t happen again.

1) To all who would post a pro-abortion argument on this site: 1a) A statement: I assert that moral and logical laws require you to answer the questions I post here *before* posting your argument. You are free to expound on your beliefs, but here is our home, and so the onus of justifying one’s beliefs first is on *you* Failure to do this renders your credibility forfeit and your points invalid. The points I make here are my answers to your points before you post them, so you might as well answer them before you proceed. If you cannot counter my points, then my answers trump your questions. I am putting my points in caps so they are easy to find. That having been said...

1b) Stipulation: Roe vs Wade was a non-decision. It did not say abortion was okay. It was based on the assumption that if the baby in the womb was a life, then it was protected. What RvW actually said was that it wasn’t up to the courts (non-experts) to decide whether or not the baby was a life when the doctors (experts) couldn’t seem to agree when life started. In effect, it said “we, the court, decide not to decide.” Arguments against this philosophy aside (when in doubt, don’t) this situation has most certainly changed in the last thirty years. We can easily define life’s beginning in terms of its already defined end. That’s just logic. Medical information here was obtained through a friend of mine who has been an EMT for about ten years and is currently in post-graduate med school (UMDNJ)

2) Where does life begin?: 2a) Clinical death: Your heart stops. If when your heart stops, you’re dead, then by extension when your heart starts, you’re alive. Using this definition, most of even the earliest abortions are now illegal. But there is a problem. Clinical death is not final. You can be “brought back” from that, so it isn’t really death.

2b) Biological death: All electrical activity in the brain stops. If when you cease to have an EKG reading you’re dead, then by extension when you start to have an EKG reading you’re alive. Since these brain impulses must be present to start the heart, they are readable before that. Even more of the earliest abortions are now illegal. But there is a problem. Even without the brain you can be put on machines that keep your body “alive”, so that isn’t really death, either.

2c) Cellular breakdown and organ failure: The machines can feed you and pump your blood until your organs give out. Once the cell structure disintegrates and your organs fail there isn’t anything a machine can do for you. You would require an organ transplant which you would not get if you were in this degrading situation. Therefore, when your cell structure gives out you’re dead (really dead this time), SO BY DEFINITION WHEN YOUR CELL STRUCTURE IS FORMED (CONCEPTION) YOU ARE ALIVE.

3) On abortion as birth control (including birth defects): Let’s just take this first. You get pregnant. You are a college student/high school student/ unwed mother/poor/et cetera. The question of whether or not abortion in this instance should be allowed can be dressed up to look like kindness to the child. “I can’t offer him any kind of life,” “I have no education to get a job,” “adoption/foster care is *so* terrible/stressful/painful” “I can’t provide for him.” Since you have this child’s best interest at heart, we can safely say (unless we want to sound sanctimonious) that death is a worse alternative to being poor, no matter how poor you are.

Therefore I assert that the question becomes one of convenience. You may disagree with my use of this word, but bear with me for the moment. “My future is ruined if I can’t go to/finish college,” “my parents would *kill* me (note the irony),” “I can’t deal with this now,” “I’ll lose my scholarship,” “I can barely feed myself, how am I supposed to feed a child?” ALL OF THIS AMOUNTS TO “CONVENIENCE.” “MY FUTURE,” “KILL ME,” “I CAN’T,” “I’LL LOSE,” “I CAN BARELY.” WHERE DOES ANY OF THIS SHOW THAT THE CHILD IS DESERVING OF DEATH? SUPPOSE I CANNOT SUPPORT MY FAMILY THROUGH A TIME OF ILLNESS IF I DON’T GET A PROMOTION. NOW SUPPOSE YOU ARE GOING TO GET THAT PROMOTION IN MY PLACE. DO I HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL YOU FOR MY CONVENIENCE? OF COURSE NOT, I DON’T HAVE THAT ‘RIGHT’ NO MATTER HOW DIRE THE CONSEQUENCES.

4) On abortion after rape: Now to a touchier subject. This is due mainly to the fact that the woman involved did not ask to be placed in this position, and may have even been planning otherwise.

4a) The situation: You are raped and get pregnant. Every day of the next nine months is a reminder of your attacker, and your baby is as much him as she is you. You can’t afford to take the time from work, especially since you didn’t ask for this.

4b) The truth of the matter: truth: This is a terrible situation.

truth: no one should have to deal with this

truth: this experience is likely to be traumatic, difficult to manage, and possibly humiliating

BUT ALSO- TRUTH: YOU CANNOT “UNDO” THE RAPE

TRUTH: WHILE YOU MAY PERCEIVE EMOTIONAL BENEFITS TO NOT CARRYING THE CHILD, ABORTING HER WILL NOT EASE THE BURDEN OF THE INCIDENT AND WILL LIKELY ADD TO FEELINGS OF GUILT, SHAME, AND SORROW.

TRUTH: KILLING THE CHILD WILL TURN THE CRIME (A RAPE) INTO TWO CRIMES (A RAPE AND A MURDER)

TRUTH: THE CHILD IS NOT GUILTY IN THE CRIME

TRUTH: THE CHILD HAS DONE NOTHING TO THE MOTHER OTHER THAN TO EXIST (ie the child’s existence causes hardship and a reminder of the crime/criminal). WE DO NOT PERMIT EXECUTIONS FOR THE CRIME OF EXISTENCE. It is illegal (and rightfully so) to kill a black man for being black, a gay man for being gay, a woman because she reminds the killer of an abusive mother. THEREFORE, NO ARGUMENT CAN SUCCESSFULLY BE MADE THAT ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO KILL A CHILD BECAUSE OF WHO HER FATHER WAS OR WHAT SHE REMINDS THE MOTHER OF, OR WHAT SHE FORCES HER TO DEAL WITH.

5) Putting it all in perspective: WE HOLD IT ILLEGAL IN THIS COUNTRY TO DEPRIVE SOMEONE OF LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS WITHOUT BENEFIT OF A TRIAL BY JURY OF PEERS. THE CHILD HAS NOT HAD THE BENEFIT OF THAT DEFENSE. THE CHILD HAS BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF NO CRIME. THE CHILD HAS BEEN DEPRIVED OF THE OPPORTUNITY TO APPEAL HIS/HER DEATH SENTENCE. THESE ARE RIGHTS (real rights, not like abortion) THAT MOST ANYONE WOULD BE APPALLED TO FIND REFUSED TO ANY MURDERER ON DEATH ROW. DON’T OUR INNOCENT CHILDREN DESERVE AT LEAST AS MUCH?

aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 04, 2001

Answers

To the top, please.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 05, 2001.

Dear Anthony, and guests of the forum:
It might pay to consider a few things many well-meaning people fail to understand.

All of us, every one, was once a living fetus. We came to be born, by God's grace, and carry forward the bloodlines of our own parents and ancestors. A gene-pool, as it's called in genetics.

It well may be every one of us without exception is descended at an indefinite number of generations back --from a woman that suffered rape, or some other injustice. A great-grandmother, even 20 generations ago, was given a baby that she bore, nourished, brought up to adulthood (maybe)-- who then procreated again-- down the generations to one of us. Without that one poor woman, I might not be here today! --Nor you!

Is that fair? Not fair, possibly. It was a child given one woman because of war perhaps, maybe a sin-- so it goes. But the person she bore is our ancestor.

Another point: If a girl this day has the abortion she insists is her right-- The baby she eliminates is a grand-child of her own Dad and Mom! A family member, for the Love of God! Why can't girls see this? Is a problem such as an unwanted pregnancy of such lethal importance, when all that is required is giving birth and letting someone else adopt him/her? In the circumstance, the mother herself doing God's will, and avoiding a grave sin? Where is the minimum faith? The least and minimal responsibility? All this is --is common sense.

O Mary conceived without sin; Pray for us who have recourse to thee-- Saint James, Pray for us! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 05, 2001.


Eugene, I just felt that I must point something out to you. Not arguing your point here or anything but you said all that is required is giving birth...like that isn't that big a deal. Um, gotta tell ya, amigo...it's a VERY big deal. Ten months of pregnancy and then the actual birth...I can see how that would be very scary to a young girl. Giving birth is not something to be taken lightly. :)

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 05, 2001.

Oh, Jackie,
Just because I didn't place a great stress on it doesn't mean I don't know that. Hey, a woman can die in childbirth, or be ill for many years later. I haven't trivialized it's immense seriousness. There is no alternative however except abortion, which is a homicide. And a child in the womb is innocent of any wrongdoing. He/she did not ask to be conceived in the first place.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 05, 2001.

Anthony,

I think most people *here* agree with you, but the last person I was discussing abortion with equated abortion to having a biopsy taken! For this person the fetus not only didn't have a right to life, in fact, as far as they were concerned, the baby was just a piece of tissue, equivalent to a suspicious breast lump.

My question to you, Anthony, is how can we begin to communicate with people who don't seem to have *any* respect for the developing individual at all, or even accept that it IS a developing individual?

Frank

P.S. My other question to the person I was speaking to was "what's the difference between a baby 1 week before birth, and one week after?" I thought I could bridge the gap that way. Instead, the individual replied, "(paraphrased) in cases of birth defects, the mother *should* be able to end the life of the newborn"! How can we find a middle ground between these people and us? I don't see one.

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 05, 2001.



Well, Frank. The easy answer is that no scientist or doctor worth his/ her salt will still try to justify the "appendage" argument. With the advent of modern genetics, there is no doubt that the child from the moment of conception is a unique individual, distinct from the mother, although dependent on her.

By looking at the child's DNA a doctor can tell who the parents were, disposition to many diseases, race, sex, a plethora of things. But there is one thing he cannot tell, whether or not the baby has been born yet. There is nothing in your dna to distinguish you at conception from you at death.

The scary thing is (I am a college student), many of my friends at school realize and accept this, but still support abortion. Their argument is that even a racoon hit on the road has more of a right to demand life than a fetus because "the fetus doesn't know anybody, and hasn't experienced the world, so it wouldn't know what it's missing." How can we compete with that!? How can you argue that kind of unspeakable ignorance down? By their account, Helen Keller could have been killed up to the time she started walking! I seem to notice this shift in many areas of the infanticide movement. People that have relied for thirty years on science's "inevitable" whallop of religion are now grasping at straws while science supports more and more of what religion has to say. (That's why I for one feel that we shouldn't shrink from scientific arguments, it is a new weapon and the only one they'll accept). If this is the next generation of pro-abortion activists I shudder to think what will become of us should we fail to end this practice and soon.

aaaaaaa aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaa

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 05, 2001.


Dear Anthony,
Sad to say, the reason this mentality is current, and particularly among young people, is that many have no concept of the human soul. In fact, if a fetus had no soul, we would be forced to admit the false arguments of these misguided people.

This society has no notion of the immortal soul; it believes in ''soul music'' and ''soul food'', and soul-mates, etc., but that God has given each human being an immortal soul? Not seriously. I know kids that can relate to poltergeists and alien beings from space. Even angels (of sorts). But how do you convince them of their own soul? That is what their fathers and mothers had to teach them about. By the time they reach high school age, it's too late. Maybe that's why they try to exterminate one another, too. We should pray. Because only God can save civilization now, the way it's going.

Hail Mary, Full of Grace! Pray for us, Holy Mother! Amen. Pray for our forum, Dear St. James / Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 05, 2001.


Anthony, You said how do you argue with that kind of mentality...You might say this...(and so I'm not accused of plagiarism..this comes from the silentscream website...)

At 11 weeks gestation- HEART IS BEATING (SINCE 18-25 DAYS) BRAIN WAVES HAVE BEEN RECORDED AT 40 DAYS THE BABY SQUINTS, SWALLOWS, AND CAN MAKE A FIST THE BABY HAS FINGERPRINTS AND CAN KICK THE BABY IS SENSITIVE TO HEAT, TOUCH, LIGHT AND NOISE THE BABY SUCKS HIS OR HER THUMB ALL BODY SYSTEMS ARE WORKING THE BABY WEIGHS ABOUT 1 OUNCE AND IS 2 1/2 TO 3 INCHES LONG THE BABY COULD FIT COMFORTABLY IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, on Yahoo, there is a news story about the recent cloning developments in Britain. I'm sure that's a whole other topic we could discuss here (and I may at that) but for the sack of THIS topic...here are some facts for you.

"An embryo is essentially a ball of stem cells that evolves into a fetus when the stem cells start specializing to create a nervous system, spine and other features - at about 14 days. Scientists hope that by extracting the stem cells from the embryo when it is three or four days old, their growth can be directed in a lab to become any desired cell or tissue type for transplant."

And so, their new law says that they can do this..cloning...but they must destroy the embryo at the 14 day mark because then it is officially a fetus (read: CHILD). So, from this we can conclude that medically speaking, within two weeks, a child is formed. Now, I happen to know that you can not get an abortion until you are at LEAST six weeks pregnant. You can't even get in to see an OB/GYN until that time. So...what can we conclude from this? At six weeks, about 45 days, a CHILD...a BABY...is being killed. Not a tadpole. Not an egg. Not a piece of tissue. A BABY. And the mentality that those being born into poverty are actually being SPARED a life of misery doesn't jibe with me. Because IF that were true...then I should have killed my 1 and 2 year old children because I was living in poverty. That would have made it allllll better, wouldn't it? And one other thing that has stuck in my mind for many years now....I was about six months pregnant, years ago, and a friend was talking to me about abortion. She told me that she had had one when she was five months pregnant. I was dumbstruck. She said she'd actually seen the ultrasound. You looked?!?!?! I asked. Yes, I had to see. I couldn't believe it. I had been feeling my baby kick and move and could feel his head through my stomach...Surely, she'd felt the same. So, how could she have done it? Why did she wait so long???? Her answer...it took her that long to come up with the money. I didn't understand then. And I don't now. By the way, to all pro choicers....read this and tell me if abortion is safe. http://www.prolife.com/marlas.htm

And I strongly urge, implore and beg each and every one of you to visit this site. Please. www.prolife.com

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 06, 2001.


Friends,
This is a most marvelous thread, thanks to all of you.
I particularly salute Anthony for his explication, which cannot be overcome. If I were wealthy, I would award him with a "pro-life scholarship" to cover his college studies.

God bless you. JFG
PS: Jackiea, I have bookmarked that good site.

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 06, 2001.


Thank you, John. I'm glad you did. I hope many, many others do, as well. There are many resources there and for those that are faced with the problem Anthony spoke of...how to argue your point...there are many good facts there at that site that can help you. God Bless and be well.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 06, 2001.


Dear Jackie and Anthony, and other friends and guests,
Each time I enter into the forum to lend my opinion, I think: ''Does it have to be an editorial? Why not say only: This (abortion) is a sin!''

Why rationalize this obvious and uncontestable truth-- an innocent human life is destroyed wilfully in every abortion? The doctor, the mother, the clinic and the supporters of this terrible act are all participating in an actual infanticide!

We in the U.S. are so de-sensitized to the awful gravity and horror of the problem, that we feel the need to ''debate'' and ''convince'' a myriad criminal assassins! But, by the devil's own influence this is now the law of the land!

Christians everywhere (not only Catholics) have to protest, and not only to the politicians; protest everywhere this evil is upheld, condoned or taken for granted. Until the last voice of our conviction dies out, we must give some voice to these innocent victims. Love the perpetrators, yes? No violence or hate! But never concede the Truth! Jesus Himself is with us; He will never be silenced!

Mary, Our Beloved Virgin Mother! Pray for us and assist your children; Holy Apostle James--Pray for us! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 06, 2001.


Anthony:

I must compliment you on the work you have done here! I don't have time to read everything or respond as much as I would like but John's glowing review of your posts prompted me to check it out. Your arguments are excellent! What I found most interesting is that no one has refuted anything you have said. Well done! Our Lady is well pleased I am sure!

St. James, Mary Our Blessed Mother, pray for us!

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 07, 2001.


Please read this thoroughly, before jumping to conclusions!

What most people do not understand is that Catholics are the definitely the most Pro-Choice of all.

It is just that their timing is different.

The believe the choice occurs before conception. NOT AFTER.....

The choice to be made is to keep the fly zipped and the knees together, unless you are willing to be blessed with a Miracle.

Baptism B4 Abortion, Pierre

-- Pierre Vidrine (pierre_vidrine@cabot-corp.com), February 08, 2001.


I like that, Pierre! Haha!

Once a friend of mine said to a group of girls at our office (they were dicussing contraception)-- The best contraceptive device is the aspirin.

One of them asks, ''Aspirin?''

Yes, he answered, ''Place a little aspirin tablet between your two knees. Then, just don't drop it!''

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 08, 2001.


Three cheers for common sense!!!!!

aaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaa

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.



Anthony, I applaud you! As for your friends, and trying to make them see, you can do what I did. I grabbed a friends arm who was speaking of having an abortion. She was 7 weeks along. I grabbed her arm, and then grabbed for my apple corer. I had the vacuum nearby and leaned for the hose to it. She asked me what I was doing. I told her, "I am going to let you feel what that baby is going to feel if you do this! This baby WILL feel what you are having done to it, and you need to experience the pain before you decide to do this"! I scared her crazy. But, after seeing what I had out, and hearing what happens, she changed her mind and now has a gorgeous 15 month old daughter!!!!!!! Sadly, there are so many out there who do NOT realize the full trauma these babies go through. I am a student in college also, and until my one class, I did not KNOW that they used to do open heart surgery (and others) on newborn infants with NO anesthesia, just a paralytic drug!!!!!!!!! HORRIBLE! The reasoning? Way back some idiot said a baby does NOT feel as their nerves are n0t fully developed! Thankfully, that was negated! But, it took many years and many babies suffering. I agree 100% with you. I tell many people: If I were to stab my neighbor and he died, I would go to jail for murder. yet, if it were to have an abortion, I could walk the streets freely. I was raped at 11 years old, and even then, when they asked if I could be pregnant, my answer was, "If I am pregnant, I will have the baby cause it isn't the babies fault!" I did not have a pregnancy occur as a result of the rape. I have a sister who cannot have children, and I see her heartbreak when she see's others with children. And, I ache each time I hear of an innocent life being taken through abortion, as that child could go to someone who wants a baby and is unable to have one. The "convenience" issue, pertaining to someone "not being ready", or "can't have a baby at their age" well, then I say, "if you cannot handle the responsibilities of your actions, then keep your legs closed!"!!!!!! If you are "responsible" enough to have sex, then you are responsible enough to to deal with the possible consequences and keep that baby! As horrible as it sounds (and it appalled me) there is a 12 year old where we live (this was 3 years ago) who was pregnant for baby #2!!! BUT, she had her first baby and was having her 2nd baby! She had them both naturally, and did NOT choose abortion. I was appalled at the age and at her mothers remarks (she was raising the baby's as her own) about letting her daughter be a "free child" while she was young! But, at least THOSE babies were given a chance! I give that little girl credit for that. But, I do not condone her age and having sex and children at that age. I am VERY VERY Pro Life! I just wish that our town had the Chain of Arms for Pro Life! Instead, it is held 4 hours away from us, and having 6 children of my own, I cannot afford to drive that distance. Any ideas on what would have to be done to get one in my town? What would I have to do? Alice Z.

-- Alice Z. (zastmom@abe.midco.net), October 07, 2004.

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