Is there a "requirement" for the writers in this forum to "prove" their assertions and claims to be true?

The following is a quote from Brother Link Hudson concerning this matter. He said:

“Also, neither I nor Brother Kelley nor anyone else are required to prove anything to you. ”

Now, Brother Link, you know that I have never said that you, Brother Kelley, or anyone else is “required” to prove anything to me. In fact, you are definitely not required to prove anything to me or anyone else in this forum. Neither is anyone “required” to believe anything you say in this forum unless you can prove that it is the truth. Therefore if you expect us to believe your claims and assertions that you make in this forum then I can tell you for a surety that you will be “required” to offer conclusive evidence upon which we can accept your claims if you expect us to believe them. You have not given us evidence that proves without doubt that you have the Holy Spirit just like the apostles and that Brother Kelley has spoken in tongues. You and Brother Kelley have asserted that you have the Holy Spirit as did the apostles and in the same way that the apostles possessed the Spirit. Brother Kelley has now asserted that he speaks in tongues. Now, neither of you are “required” to prove these false assertions to us. And that might be the reason that you feel no obligation to prove those claims to us. But if you expect us to believe your assertions then you will be required to prove them to be true.

Now, if you do not care whether we believe what you assert then certainly there is no “requirement" to offer any evidence to support any of them. Now, this may be the reason you do not “demonstrate” as did the apostle Paul (1 Cor. 2:1-4) that you have the Holy Spirit. But my suspicion is that you do not demonstrate that you have the Holy Spirit simply because you do not in fact have the Holy Spirit and therefore cannot demonstrate it. Just as Brother Kelley will not, because he cannot, demonstrate that he has the gift of tongues as they had in the New Testament. But there is no requirement to prove that either you have the Holy Spirit or that Brother Kelley has it if you could care less whether we believe it or not. I do not believe either of you and there is no “requirement” that I do so without proof that you are telling the truth.

And we are told by the word of God, “Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good.” (1 Thess. 5:21).

And these assertions without Proof were common even in the days of the apostles.

“And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove.” (Acts 25:7). But they could say, along with Brother Link, to the Brethren if they demanded “proof”, “we are not required to prove anything to you”. To which the Brethren would reply “we are not required to believe anything you say without proof." Paul made a point of the fact that these men could not “prove” any of their charges or assertions against Him. “Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. (Acts 24:13).

We are to live in such as way as to “prove” the “good, and acceptable will of God”.

“And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Rom.12:2).”

If Brother Link were to come to this forum and “claim” to be an apostle I can tell you that the following verse would surely apply:

“I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:” (Rev. 2:2).

Jesus commended these Brethren in the church at Ephesus. They knew how to prove whether one was an apostle or not. They knew that only an apostle could lay hands on another person that he might receive the Holy Spirit. They also knew the “signs of an apostle” and it was simple for them to “try” those who made false claims and demand that they “demonstrate” as Paul did in Corinth (1Cor. 2:1-4) and among the Ephesians themselves (Acts 19:1-6) that they were apostles. If they did not PROVE their claims they were “found” to be liars. (Rev. 2:2).

“Doth not the ear try words?” (Job 12:11).

No Brethren, there is no requirement that Brother Link, Brother Kelley, or anyone else “prove” their claims in this forum but there is a requirement from our God that we have proof and “try” them before we believe their assertions and claims.

Therefore, not only do we have a right but we also have a responsibility before God to demand proof of any man who asserts or claims anything in this forum to be true as a condition of our acceptance of and belief in their claims. Therefore, I for one, will continue to demand proof of claims that I see in this forum that are made without any evidence to prove that they are true. And without prove I will not accept any such assertions or claims. This is not only my right but also my responsibility as a servant of Christ before God. I recommend the same to all of you.

For we are told, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

There are many false prophets gone out into the world and not a single one of them wants you to obey the Holy Spirit's command through the apostle John to “TRY THEM”. (1 John 4:1)

Your Brother in Christ

E. Lee Saffold

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, February 02, 2001

Answers

E. Lee, I notice you didn't fly over here to Indonesia and meet my challenge to prove that you believed that Jesus is the Son of God. You didn't come over here and try.

And you suspect that neither Brother Kelley nor myself have gone to Atlanta to prove to you that we have the Holy Spirit in us because we can't? I've got some other reasons for you. One reason is that spiritual things are spiritually discerned. i never claimed to raise the dead. The Bible teaches that different gifts are gifen to different people. If I go to Atlanta, and don't raise the dead for you, that doesn't mean I don't have the Holy Spirit.

Another reason I'm not going to Atlanta to put on a show for you is the principle of not casting pearls before swine. even if I could raise the dead, anddid it before you, I wouldn't expect you to believe the miracle. I would expect you to come up with some other explanation. If I raised the dead every day, it still would not be wise to put on a show for you. I wouldnt' want to cheapen God's gifts by putting on a side-show for someone who scoffs at God's gifts.

And third, why would I want to go to Atlanta to prove something like this to you. You probably have a Bible right there in your house. believe the Bible.

What I would like to point out to you is that your using 'you have't proved that you have received the Spirit by coming over hear and proving it based on my own tersm, whether they be true to scripture or not, is because you can't prove it. Therefore I am going to use the fact that you have not flow to Atlanta to prove this as a rhetorical argument against you' is just cheap rhetoric. (the above in quotes is not a quote from E. Lee saffold of course. It's easier to read in quotes than with dashes between every word.)

You haven't come to Jakarta to prove that you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Is it fair for me to use this as an argument to argue that you don't believe this? Of course not.

You wrote, >>>You have not given us evidence that proves without doubt that you have the Holy Spirit just like the apostles and that Brother Kelley has spoken in tongues. <<<

First of all, I have never even met Brother Kelley face to face. Iv'e jsut read his words voer the internet. So why would I give you evidence that Brother Kelley has spoke in tongues. I haven't seen evidence myself. I haven't seen evidence that he has been baptized with water. If he tells me he has, I don't have any reason to interrogate him and be overly suspicious. But it is rediculous for you to expect me to come to you with proof with that Brother Kelley has spoken in tongues when I just read about it on a forum.

You need to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. I don't need to prove anything about myself to you. To my own Master, the Lord, I stand or fall. I am not subject to your judgement. I recognize yoru challenges as rhetoric. I don't discern a person who genuinely wants to know more aboutthe gifts of the Spirit, and the working of the Spirit. I don't sense someone who is hungry for these thigns. I see someone who is using a challenge as rhetoric in an argument, who scoffs at the idea of God working in certain ways today. So of course I am not going to come put on a show for you. Even if I could raise the dead, and that gift were in operating in me often, why would I come to you to show off? God doesn't give gifts to show off.

You wrote, >>>You and Brother Kelley have asserted that you have the Holy Spirit as did the apostles and in the same way that the apostles possessed the Spirit.<<<<

First, Brother Kelley and myself are two separate individuals

E. Lee, I would like for you to dig up a quote where I said that I possessed the Spirit 'in the same way that the apostles possessed the Spirit.' I don't thinkyou can find such a quote. Is there a 'way' to 'possess' the Spireit. These are your words not mine.

I have the Holy Spirit in me. I don't claim to have all the same _gifts_ operating in me that were operating in the apostles. From reading the Bible, we know that gifts are distributed among the members of the body. the apostles had a lot of these gifts in operation in their lives.

You quote about testing apostles. Well, I don't claim to be an apostle, E. Lee, but you should really consider that passage. remember that if there were 12 apostles plus Paul then there would be little need to test apostles. Just find out if he is Paul or one of the 12. This verse makes sense if there were many apostles in the first century besides the 12 and Paul, and the scriptures indicate.

In John 7, Jesus gave a promise of the Spirit that was not just limited to the apostles, but to him that believes on Jesus. Read it. It is about rivers of living water. Acts 2:38-39 promises the Spirit to as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Yet you believe that the Spirit is not given to saints today. you claim not to have the Holy Spirit. I read in Jude about mockers who will come in the last days, having not the Spirit. Jude then told the disciples to pray in the Holy Ghost. Which group would you rather be in, the group of them that 'have not the Spirit' or the saints that pray in the Holy Ghost?

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2001

Brother Link:

You have said:

“E. Lee, I notice you didn't fly over here to Indonesia and meet my challenge to prove that you believed that Jesus is the Son of God. You didn't come over here and try.”

Now, it is obvious, to any discerning individual that has read your words to me that you have not “seriously” asked me to come to Indonesia to prove that I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. It is also true that no one during our discussions, including yourself has ever seriously doubted that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And it is also clear that you believe without question that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and therefore there is no difference between you and I on this issue. Thus there is no need whatsoever for me to go to Indonesia and prove something to you that you already believe to be the truth. And it is not in the least important to me whether you accept the fact that I believe Christ is the Son of God. I am satisfied to know that you and others in this forum believe it. And you can rest assured that if any man challenged me to go to Indonesia and debate with him. And vie with him in a public forum for the souls of men concerning the proposition that Christ is the Son of God I would take the first opportunity to arrange to be there to defend that truth. Now, if you deny that Christ is the Son of God and sincerely desire for me to come to Indonesia and prove to you that He is the Son of God in a Public forum I will be happy to make arrangements to do just that. But, if you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God as I do and all you want is for me to prove to you that I believe it I would not walk across the street for such a purpose. For I have not been commanded by Christ to go forth and convince the world of “my beliefs”. Instead I have been commanded to go and preach the gospel to every creature. I am not set for the defense of “E. Lee Saffold”. But rather I am “set for the defense of the gospel”. If you deny the gospel and the deity of Christ I will resist you with all the strength that is in me.

But, the situation is quite different with your assertion that you have the Holy Spirit today. And it is also quite different with Brother Kelley’s false assertion that he has spoken in tongues as the apostles did in Acts 2 and as the Household of Cornelius did in Acts 10 and As the Ephesians did in Acts 19:1-6. It seems important to you that I believe that you have the Holy Spirit. I deny that you have the received the Holy Spirit as did the Apostles and the House of Cornelius in Acts 2 and Acts 10. I deny that you have the Holy Spirit at all in any sense whatsoever. I am aware you claim to have a “different gift” that the apostles had but you are claiming to have the “same Spirit” that they had from which you received a “different gift”. And it is extremely convenient for you that the particular gift that you claim to have is a “non-miraculous” or not supernatural. In this way there is no objective and observable evidence that you have such a gift. And it is your hope that since you have no objective evidence to prove that you have such a gift that we will simply accept your assertion on the grounds that we cannot prove that you do not have it. But I will not accept that you have the “same Spirit” that the apostles had unless I can see some demonstration of it similar to that which the apostles and those upon whom they laid their hands were able to show. And the quoting of passages of Scripture which tell me that the apostles and the first century Christians had these powers is not evidence that you have them today, nor were they written to convince us that YOU have the Holy Spirit today. I sincerely believe every verse in the Bible about the Holy Spirit and you have not shown me a single one that would or should convince anyone that YOU have that “same Spirit” that they had.

And I have not asked you to come to Atlanta and prove that you have the Holy Spirit, though I would be happy for you to do so when you come to visit your family. You are simply mixing up two separate and distinct subjects that we have discussed. The time that I challenged you to come to Atlanta and “raise” the dead was during the time that I was arguing with Brother Kelley. He had claimed that the miracles that were done in the book of Acts were still happening today and I challenged him concerning the fact that “raising the dead” was not happening today. And you agreed with Brother Kelley and affirmed that “raising the dead” was happening today. I then challenged either of you, or anyone that you knew, to come and do such miracles in Atlanta. I knew while making that challenge that neither you nor he, nor anyone else in the known world would accept it. For you have no such powers from the Holy Spirit and neither does any mere man living today. The real reason that you have not come to demonstrate these powers that we were arguing about is because you cannot do it. And all we hear from you is that you will not do it because I would not believe even if I saw a miracle. Now you do not have any way of knowing what my reaction would be if I saw a miracle. And you cannot prove to save your life that I would react to a “miracle” with doubt. In fact, I believe every miracle recorded in the Bible. But you are correct in understanding that I will examine any such claims and will not be deceived by any “trickery” or be deceived by any fraud. But, If I were to see any of the genuine miracles that I read about in the New Testament I would just as quickly accept them, as did the first century Christians. I have not seen any such miracles though I have attended meetings where the “preachers” were claiming to do them. They were all frauds and proven without question to be frauds. One of them was “Oral Roberts” who was run out of my home town for perpetrating such frauds when I was a very young man and I witnessed his trickery, lies, and deceptions. My mother, as a faithful Christian wanted me to observe these false teachers in action and took me for the very purpose of showing just how fraudulent these men were. In fact, the brethren in those days openly challenged these deliberate deceivers to the point that they would not return. They were claiming to “heal the sick and raise the dead” in their advertisements and were found by the brave brethren who challenged them, to be severely “wanting”. And I do not doubt for one moment that anyone that you know who is claiming to do such miracles are just a fraudulent as these men have proven themselves to be. But I offered you the challenge to come and demonstrate these “miracles” during that discussion and neither you nor Brother Kelley has taken that challenge. And you never will because you know even better than we do that you have NO POWER from God. You also know even better than we do that no one that you know has such power from God.

But I have not made this challenge for you to come to Atlanta and prove that you have the Holy Spirit for you have sought to keep that assertion solely in the realm of the “subjective”. You dare not even try to bring that assertion out into the “objective” arena where it can be examined in the light of day. In the New Testament there was always objective evidence that one had the Holy Spirit. And this objective and clearly observable fact that they had the Holy Spirit was the OBJECTIVE evidence that was used often to establish that the apostles and early Christians were inspired by and speaking for God. No subjective “feeling” that one had the Holy Spirit or any empty and unproven assertions was sufficient to confirm that the early Church spoke the word of God. They went everywhere preaching the word and the Lord worked with them “confirming the word with signs following.” (Mark 16: `7-20). They never told anyone that they would not use “signs” to confirm the word of God for God did those signs and wonders for that very purpose (Acts 4; Heb. 2:3,4; Mark 16:9-20). Unlike our Brother Link who CLAIMS to have the Holy Spirit and is ever unwilling to demonstrate objectively that he has the Holy Spirit. He is ever CLAIMING that God is doing miracles today but never willing that any such miracles should be “demonstrated” to those who doubt it. The obvious difference between brother Link’s claims and the New Testament reality is seen in this complete inability to demonstrate what the apostles and first century Christians were not only willing and able to demonstrate but actually did demonstrate. They were ever willing and ready to demonstrate that they had the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 2:1-4). And they not only affirmed but proved by demonstrations of power (1 Thess. 1:5) that they had the “Spirit of Christ”. They did this for the very purpose of confirming or proving that they were spokesmen for God and were inspired by God to preach the gospel. This was the very way that the Lord was working with them “confirming the word with signs following” (Mark 16:17-20). It was undeniable that they had the Holy Spirit and were therefore spokesmen for God. They were not just ordinary uninspired men with no further ambition than men like Brothers Link and Kelley who seek nothing more than to stir the emotions and religious fervor of the simple and easily deceived souls who would believe anything without the slightest shred of evidence to support it. The numerous and undeniable demonstrations of power affirmed historically by friend and foe alike of the early Church in the New Testament was the genuine work of the Holy Spirit. And the idle and empty claims of men like Brothers Link and Kelley do not even remotely compare. For their claim is nothing more than their own self -delusions concerning the work of the Holy Spirit today. One minute they claim that the Holy Spirit is doing the same today that He did in New Testament times and the next minute they are denying that they have the same power as those in the New Testament possessed from the Holy Spirit. Any discerning person can see the DISTINCT DIFFERENCE by comparing their weak claims and assertions of having the “Holy Spirit in their lives” and their following firm denials of having any observable powers from the Holy Spirit, the third member of the Godhead “dwelling” within them. The contradiction is evident and overwhelming to anyone who reads the New Testament thoughtfully.

There were those in the New Testament times who claimed to speak for God but they could not prove it. Such were the Judiazing teachers that Paul was ever confronting. Notice how HE challenges them in this verse.

“ But I will come shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the SPEECH of them that are puffed up, but the POWER. For the kingdom of God is not in WORD, but in POWER.” (1 Cor. 4:19-20). Then Paul said to the Thessalonians, “For our gospel came not unto you in WORD ONLY, but also in POWER, and in the HOLY SPIRIT, and in MUCH ASSURANCE; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. (1 Thess. 1:5).

Now, in these above passages we have an apostle of Christ challenging the Judiazing teachers. And he is challenging their POWER, which he knew they did not have, and affirming the POWER that he without doubt had from the Holy Spirit so that he could bring the gospel with “much assurance”. Compare this to Brother Link’s feeble inability to show any power from the Holy Spirit and his complete unwillingness to do so even if he had such power. It is different indeed, isn’t it Brethren?

At least, my brethren, who believe that they have an “ordinary” or non-miraculous measure of the Holy Spirit today, admit that the word of God has been revealed and confirmed by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit in the early church. And that this has accomplished the purpose of giving us the inspired word of God. And thus they do not claim to have any miraculous power from the Holy Spirit and expect no miracles to confirm the word of God today. But Brother Link is claiming that the Holy Spirit is still working today in exactly the same way that he did during the time when he was revealing and confirming the word of God during the infancy of the church as described in the New Testament. But he is not willing nor is he able to demonstrate that God is speaking through him by the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT as Paul and the early church were more than willing and able to do. Anyone that cannot see this distinct difference is either blind and cannot see or has his eyes closed because he is unwilling to see the truth.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, February 06, 2001