Hi. I am not a regular here, but I do come on occasion and read some posts. One thing that has struck me today is a question I've had concerning what are the essential beliefs to being a Christian. It came up while reading a post from Chris Hawkins concerning the question of whether George W. Bush is a Christian. He said he couldn't be one because of his stance on the death penalty. (I don't want this question to be about correct beliefs concerning the death penalty but about what are the bare essentials of Christianity.) I have been pondering this question for a period of time. As a matter of fact, the minister in my home town and I were emailing each other back and forth concerning questions of interpreting Scripture. But when I asked this question, he didn't bother to answer. A good discussion on this would help me greatly. Thanks.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

Answers

DBVZ....how do you sleep at night when you make such blatant misrepresentations of the Christian Church position??

Case in point...the following statement.....

"The most significantly critical division, for them, seems to be the belief that an immersion baptism is the absolute condition of salvation without which nothing else matters. Not faith. Not devotion to Christ."

I challenge you in front of everyone here.....to show one thread that contains any hint of what you just said. Show me one person who said faith was not important.....or that devotion to Christ was not important.

If you want to be a part of the forum for which you have no interest in except to share the "catechisms"....then at least have the decency enough to truthfully state the postition of those who feel the Bible alone is sufficent to produce faith.

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2001

DBVZ....

You are wrong in your assertion that "nothing else matters."

No one has ever stated on this forum that nothing else matters...(and as I suspected...you cannot show a single line on this entire forum where someone said that.)

And here is where you are wrong.....everything else....DOES MATTER.

You can be baptized in the ocean so many times that every fish knows you on a first name basis!! However.....if that baptism has not been preceeded by faith, by repentance, and confession of Jesus as the Christ.....then all you have done is gone down into the baptistery a dry sinner and come up a wet one.

The process of salvation is like a four legged stool.....faith, repentance, confession, and baptism. Take away any one of the legs....and the whole stool falls apart.

Now I know you don't buy that. Fine!! But don't misrepresent the Christian church position by saying...."Nothing else matters."

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2001

The fact remains DBVZ....YOU DID misrepresent....and now you have tried to back peddle.

And all that does....is discredit you even further.

-- Anonymous, February 06, 2001

DBVZ.... You are wrong in your assertion that "nothing else matters."

No one has ever stated on this forum that nothing else matters...(and as I suspected...you cannot show a single line on this entire forum where someone said that.)

And here is where you are wrong.....everything else....DOES MATTER.

You can be baptized in the ocean so many times that every fish knows you on a first name basis!! However.....if that baptism has not been preceeded by faith, by repentance, and confession of Jesus as the Christ.....then all you have done is gone down into the baptistery a dry sinner and come up a wet one.

The process of salvation is like a four legged stool.....faith, repentance, confession, and baptism. Take away any one of the legs....and the whole stool falls apart.

Now I know you don't buy that. Fine!! But don't misrepresent the Christian church position by saying...."Nothing else matters."

(I guess I'll keep posting this message over and over and over and over.)

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2001

Regan,

This is the most important question you will ever ask in your life and you are to be commended for asking it. It is exactly the same question asked in Acts 2:37, "Brethren what shall we do?"

Since you are obviously seeking biblical info, I will give you several scriptures to look up as I outline the steps that lead to Salvation. This will save me a lot of time & typing & allow you time to mull over those scriptures to form your own opinion.

Based upon what I personally believe and the stance of the Restoration Movement Churches of Christ and Christian Churches (which are the backbone of this Forum), these are the steps for receiving Salvation:.....1) Faith..........2) Repentance.......... 3) Confession..........4) Baptism..............5)Continuing in Christ (faithful living).

Here are the Scriptural references for these steps:

1) Faith - It's only logical to assume that God would not offer His Salvation to someone who does not believe in Him. So look these up:

John 3:16-18..... John 6:47...... Acts 16:31

2) Repentance - Since God is a Holy and Righteous God, sin is repulsive to Him. Sin is what separates us from Him, so therefore we must repent of it, in other words we must become sorry enough for our sin that we are willing to do our absolute best to abstain from it.

Acts 2:38........ Luke 15:4-7....... Acts 17:30....... 2 Peter 3:9

3) Confession - God desires that all who seek His Salvation must publically confess that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) and the full Son of God. Believing that He is anything less than the sinless Son of God would negate His blood sacrifice on the Cross, because anything less would not have the power to pay the price for your sins. And confessing this before men is a representation of your belief in such.

Romans 10:8-10....... Matthew 10:32-33....... 1 John 1:8-10........ And here is the confession to be made: Matthew 16:16

4) Baptism - This is baptism by full-immersion, as that is what the Greek word used in every instance of Scripture is defined as. the Greek word "Baptizo" means to plunge, to dip, or to immerse in a substance - those are it's only meanings. The Greek has totally different words for pouring or sprinkling.

Baptism is an essential for Salvation for 2 reasons...1) Because Christ's death paid for our sins, but we must be linked to that death in order for it to be of benefit for us - this occurs in the watery "Grave" of Baptism......2) The in-dwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is given at Baptism and the Spirit is our earnest, our "down-payment", if you will, that seals us as one of Christ's own.

Acts 2:38...... Mark 16:16...... Romans 6:1-11...... Colossians 2:12...... 1 Peter 3:21

5) Remaining in Christ - Some groups say that once saved, a person can never lose that Salvation - the Bible says just the opposite of that, so it is important that we remain in Christ as Faithful followers so that Salvation remains assured to us.

Matthew 10:22...... John 14:15...... Revelation 14:12...... Hebrews 10:23-31

I hope these help you in your search for Salvation and I am sure there will be more forthcoming from others here.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

Regan,

To go on record, I posted above about the steps that lead to Salvation because I cannot consider anyone a Christian until they are Saved, i.e. "In Christ". And that is the point that lead to all the debate on the GWB Thread.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

Regan,

Mark is right on here with the very essentials of becoming a Christian.

I would add and caution you with this…do not (as many do) come to the conclusion that salvation can be found in ONE or TWO verses to the EXCLUSION of all other verses that talk about salvation. For example just because John 3:16 mentions belief and not repentance, it does not mean that we do not have to repent in order to be saved (See Acts: 2:38).

Can you give us some background so that we can know where you are coming from?

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

Thanks for the replies so far. What I want to focus on is the faith aspect. What exactly does one have to believe in order to be saved? That is where the death penalty issue triggered my thoughts. I personally don't view someone's view on the death penalty as a salvation issue. I would, however, throw in the deity of Christ as a salvation issue. What about issues such as abortion, euthanasia, biblical inerrancy, the canon, etc.

Just a little background on me. Right now I am in my last semester at Great Lakes Christian College in Lansing, MI. After I finish my internship in the summer, I'll be looking for a church to serve at full-time.

I am a believer, and I think I have my own opinion derived from Scripture concerning this issue. But I do want to hear others since most people seem to stop the conversation half way through.

Thanks

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

Great question. It is too late for a proper response, but I'll try to get on completed on Saturday.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

Regan,

Just a couple of quick thoughts:

1) You're absolutely correct in making the deity of Christ a Salvational issue - that was were I was trying to go with my explanation of Confession.

2) I personally do not make many of the side issues you mentioned as qualifications for Salvation - simply because the Bible does not make them to be. There is no " thou shalt promote the death penalty or be consigned to Hell" in scripture. I do see where scripture, both Old & New Testament, authorize the death penalty for murder & other heinous crimes - but failure to do so is not given to be a damnable offense. But by not recognizing the scriptures that do promote the death penalty - we leave ourselves open to error in other areas as well. There is an idea that makes a lot of sense when interpreting scripture; "once wrong in the small things, what is to prevent error in the more important areas as well?" If we can explain away the death penalty, who's to say that we won't then find a way to explain away Repentance, Confession, or Baptism? One misinterpretted Scripture can start a long slide down a "slipery-slope".

3) Again, personally, I have a hard time considering those who actively support abortion, euthanasia, or inaccuracies in Scripture to be Christians. 1st of all, if ALL of the Scriptures are not correct & accurate, we have no Faith to hold to. If God is shown to be inconsistant in any of His word, then He COULD be inconsistant in other matters as well - such does not meet my definition of a Holy, Just, Righteous, & perfect God. There can be no "Good Confession" if there is nothing accurate to base that confesion on. Also, the open support of murder under the guise of "choice" invalidates their Repentance because they are willingly compounding the sin of murder to their own account.

Best wishes on your studies & insuing ministry - as such, you're in the same boat that I'm currently in so, "I feel your pain".....:~)

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2001

Regan,

"What is your only comfort in life and in death?

That I am not my own but belong, body and soul, in life and in death, to my faithful Savior Jesus Christ.

He has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood, and has set me free from the tyranny of the devil. He also watches over me in such a way that not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my Father in heaven; in fact, all things must work together for my salvation.

Because I belong to him, Christ, by his Holy Spirit, assures me of eternal life and makes me whole-heartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him.

What must you know to live and die in the joy of this comfort?

Three things: first, how great my sins and misery are; second, how I am set free from all my sins and misery; and third, how I am to thank God for such deliverance."

The Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 1. The Catechism is structured into 52 "Lord's Days", with similar instruction on the basis for understanding the plan of salvation all grounded in Bible truth drawn directly from the scripture.

On this forum, most will not recommend study of the confessions, catechisms, and creeds of the Christian faith. I will. They summarize, and organize, and explain that can often be difficult. On this forum, they will very clearly state their own "creed", and their own requirements for what is orthodox and what must be included in their "catechism" of acceptable beliefs. They don't want to use such words, but the content is the same. They present a docrtinal position that excludes or includes Christians, based on whether they agree with their interpretation of the Bible and the doctrinal issues they consider essential. The most significantly critical division, for them, seems to be the belief that an immersion baptism is the absolute condition of salvation without which nothing else matters. Not faith. Not devotion to Christ. Nothing matters without immersion baptism, which is the point when faith becomes salvation in their doctrinal scheme. You can see some of that in the discussion of George W. Bush, and some earlier threads. They not only believe they have a better understanding, but that every believer who has not been immersed is damned. A "proper" baptism for them, is an act of obedience that makes salvation possible. Such a works based salvation is addressed very clearly throughout Romans, not very favorably.

Study hard. I hope you come to an understanding of what is essential that is based on Bible truth.

-- Anonymous, January 29, 2001

The key to what one must believe is found in Romans 15:7. The words "as Christ accepted you." The only things necessary for one to believe are those that are part of the instructions regarding becoming a Christian. Other doctrinal statements are important for well-being as a Christian, but not essential to being a Christian. Thus one just needs to look for passages that actually connect certain teachings with salvation. (Since this question concerns belief, the following examples do not include necessary actions.) (1) Belief in the existence of God (Hebrews 11:6). (2) Belief that God rewards those who earnestly seek him (Hebrews 11:6). (3) Belief that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 5:1), the Son of God (1 John 4:15), as these expressions are used in the Scriptures. (The deity of Christ is inherent in the idiomatic use of the expression "the Son of God.") (4) Belief that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, arose from the dead, was seen by witnesses (1 Corinthians 15:3-6). (5) Belief in the good news (Mark 16:15-16). Notice that all of these can be summed up in a proper and full understanding of the confession: "I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Further, let it be noticed that one who truly believes in his heart these items above would be a fool or insane not to respond to these beliefs with his complete trust in Christ for salvation, resulting in turning from one's sins, taking a public stand for Christ, being immersed in water in the name of Jesus, and taking up one's responsibility as members of "one body" in bringing the message of Christ (the Gospel), in the manner of Christ (works of love), to the world.

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2001

Danny wrote, "I challenge you in front of everyone here.....to show one thread that contains any hint of what you just said. Show me one person who said faith was not important.....or that devotion to Christ was not important."

Read what I wrote. I said, "The most significantly critical division, for them, seems to be the belief that an immersion baptism is the absolute condition of salvation without which nothing else matters." Everything you have written is clear, in stating that a person who has faith, but is not baptized by immersion, is not saved (in you view); and a person who may spend a lifetime in devotion to Christ, even unto death, is damned if they have not been baptized by immersion. Your doctrinal position is quite clear. Nothing else matters if a person is not baptized by immersion. That is what I said, and what I understand from this forum that you have said in several threads, and I stand by it.

Since you issued a challenge, let me do the same. Am I wrong? What part of my summary of the critical doctrine of your sect did I misunderstand? My comment was to Regan, who should at least know that this forum has a critcal point of doctrine that determines how you view the rest of Christianity. My shorthand is, those Christians that don't accept immersion as the only form of baptism are simply not saved and not "real" Christians. Certainly not "brothers and sisters in Christ". I challenge you. What part of your position did I misunderstand?

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2001

Christ only set one condition for salvation :

4) Jesus may not have lived a "perfect "(sinless) life. Matt 19:16 Now behold, one came to Him. "Good teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life ?" (17) So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good ? No one is good but One, that is, God . But if you want to enter into life, keep the ten commandments ." While this is not an EXPLICIT denial , of His own perfection , it makes room for legitimate inquiry . I mean , He could have simply let the remark pass . But, He didn't . HE pointed it out . Interesting .

I THINK it is not possible to be both human AND good. I THINK that is His point . Other bibles quote Him as saying , " How DARE you call me GOOD ! !"

All other conditions of salvation have been tacked on by organized denominations of religions (men) .

Full article : (copy and paste link) http://www.themestream.com/articles/72309.html or, if it works , clic link Christianity - Misconceptions

-----russ

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2001

Danny,

I did not intent to misrepresent anything. My point is still that your understanding of immersion baptism is the significant critical division for you, between those that are saved and those that are not. The rest of Christianity agrees with you an the essential need for faith, and that repentence and confession and baptism result from that. What is distinctive and critical about your sect is that you believe those who have faith and repentence and confession, but somehow manage to be baptizd in some other manner are not saved. So again, what have I misunderstood?

Russ wrote, "I THINK it is not possible to be both human AND good. I THINK that is His point . Other bibles quote Him as saying , " How DARE you call me GOOD ! !"" This needs a lot of comment. Of course he was saying it is impossible for us to keep the law perfectly, and that is the problem in the Hebrew understanding of the law. He is not actually saying he is not keeping the law perfectly, as God intended it to be kept. We can't earn salvation by perfect obedience. If the 10 Commandments did not make that clear, the Law of Love in the new testament set the bar clearly out of reach. The result is, works can't save. Only God can save through the finished redemptive work of Christ, and his payment for our sin on the cross. The issue is, how is it God decides to save us? I believe the Bible teaches clearly that God selects (or elects) those he will save as his soverign choice (Jacob and Esau). We can't DO anything that earns it or causes it to happen. The faith we need to appropriate the saving work of Christ, is itself a gift of God by grace.

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2001

Danny,

You have still not yet responded to my comments directly. I am waiting for some indication that I have misrepresented your position on the nature of immersion baptism, relative to anything else that makes us Christian. Intil you do, I see no basis for your claim that I misrepresented anything. I am not backed away from anything I have said. I have responded to some mischaricterizations that YOU wrote, but not anyting I wrote. So, did I misstate your position on immersion baptism or not? It's a simple question. It shouldn't take more than a word or two to answer, although you may neeed a page or two to explain yourself.

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2001

Danny,

And you keep posting something that does not address my point. I did not say that "nothing else matters" in the way you have taken it out of context. What I said was that even if a Christian has "faith, repentance, confession, and baptism"; none of that matters in terms of their salvation unless the baptism was by immersion. They are still damned, according to you. That was the point in my original post, and every one since. That is the point you have still failed to contradict. In fact, your most recent post restated it in another way.

I don't know why you are avoiding the issue. If you agree with the proposition that only those baptized by immersion will be saved, it seems like a simple matter to say so. You have said as much on several occasions. My comment was that from the point of view of those who have not been baptized by immersion, your position is that we are damned no matter whether we have faith, repentence, confession, or baptism by another mode. None of that will matter, in the sense that we are still damned (in your opinion). Again I ask you, what have I misrepresented? What part of the above did I get wrong? Why are you avoiding this?

See my comments on the Baptismal Regeneration thread.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2001

Regan,

I haven't checked this forum in ages. I went through the posts and saw yours. Did not see an answer like the one I would have given, so I decided to send this. If I remember, you should receive an email letting you know someone else has replied to your post.

As I search the Bible, I see only three things that are referred to as essential beliefs. I copied the section from the membership class I assembled for our church:

¨ WHAT DO WE NEED TO BELIEVE ABOUT JESUS?

1) He is the Son of God

Who is the great liar? The one who says that Jesus is not the Christ. Such people are antichrists, for they have denied the Father and the Son. Anyone who denies the Son doesn’t have the Father either. 1 John 2:22-23 (NLT)

2) He died to pay for our sins

God presented [Jesus] as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. Romans 3:25

3) He rose from the dead

If you . . . believe in your heart that God raised [Jesus] from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Other beliefs are very important (e.g., inerrancy), but I do not see anywhere that the Bible speaks of them as essential to salvation itself.

BTW, I do think certain beliefs are essential to unity within a church. I.e., a church has to take a stand one way or the other, because it cannot hold to both (or multiple) sides. Examples: Women serving as elders; Tongues-speaking.

Those are my thoughts. Hope they help.

Steve Vinson

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2001

Jesus may not have lived a "perfect "(sinless) life. Matt 19:16 Now behold, one came to Him. "Good teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life ?" (17) So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good ? No one is good but One, that is, God . But if you want to enter into life, keep the ten commandments ." While this is not an EXPLICIT denial , of His own perfection , it makes room for legitimate inquiry . I mean , He could have simply let the remark pass . But, He didn't . HE pointed it out . Interesting .

This is just sheer blasphemy. Jesus asks the question in John 8:46, "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?" This question is phrased in the Greek form which demands a "no" answer. If Jesus were indeed God, and if God indeed cannot allow sin to be in His presence, then How could God made manifest possibly sin?

The answer to the above question, "Why do you call me good?", is simple. This was an implicit statement of His deity. Jesus realized that this man, as the pharisees in John 8, knew that Jesus was without sin. He was forcing this man to realize the implications of this. The man called him "good teacher" and Jesus replied "Why do you call me good? Only God alone is good." In other words, "Do you realize what you are saying? If I truly am the Good Teacher, who does that say I really am?"

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2001