We lose a couple and it's all doom and gloom, we win one and people are talking about the Champions League. I know, that's the nature of support, particularly with yr heart and not yr head, but let's just hold on a minute. The team that beat Leeds was broadly the same as the team that lost to Villa. They will be shit again. And good again, yes, but they will be shit again. Back to my old mantra, we're not very good. I'm afraid I still believe it, though we are getting better. Safer at the back, but still suspect, otherwise creating more, Acuna still looking the pick of YBR's signings. I still feel we only play well when other teams have off days/allow us to play. Despite Acuna starting to move, me'n'Buff's broken record about movement off the ball still applies and we're still not using the flanks as well as we should. Sixth, frankly, is amazing. Don't want to piss on anyone's bonfire, I'm delighted with Saturday's result, but let's see consistency over at least four or five games before we start getting silly.
Howay then, shoot me doon.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Answers

Nope....I'm with you all the way on this one....

And as you I'm delighted with the result at the weekend....I'll be even more delighted if we can get a draw away at Chelsea and follow it up with a home win against Southampton....a bit of consistency would work wonders for my poor heart...

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

>>>>Don't want to piss on anyone's bonfire

Don't then.

>>>>>Sixth, frankly, is amazing

What's your problem with it?

>>>>>They will be shit again. And good again, yes, but they will be shit again.

You're missing the point. If they CAN be good then they are good and the other times are off days. If they were just a poor side they could never produce form like Saturday.

We're good and getting better - try and come to terms with it.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Jonno...I've always liked the way you defend yer boys...even whan it's obvious yer not 100% right...or even sure that you believe yerself...

from an outsiders point of view..and I am an outsider, Dan was spot on. Spot on especially with the fact that emotions on here change with every game..usually a few defeats followed by a decent win. Your league position now looks good...a few weeks ago it looked bad..a few weeks before that it was looking good etc etc etc. Fact is that it's only United doing the biz week in week out....I don't go along with the line that this PL is a weak PL. Everyone apart from us (so far) is doing a Newcastle....winning...losing..drawing..REGULARLY. Bleedin' hell...it's possible to see NUFC 2nd or 13th in a few weeks....wonder which one? :-)

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

"broadly the same as the team that lost to Villa" 5 changes!!! that's nearly half a team.

If everyone eas fir YBR would probably have fielded:

Given/Harper
Barton Dabizas Hughes Quinn(would have been Domi)
Solano Lee Dyer Speed
Cort Shearer

Now you can argue whether they would have won at Villa but it's clear that YBR started with only 2 of 10 outfield 1st choices against Villa and ended with 2 (Barton for Speed). We lost.

Against Leeds he started with 6 out of 10 outfield first choices... we won.

If/when YBR has full choice and can have the luxury of rotating players to give them a rest then we will win the league.. no doubts!

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

for "eas fir" read "was fit"....

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

LR

The PL is a poor league and getting poorer. Haway man, your main challengers are Sunderland for chrissakes. Not having a pot at the Makems but they're nowt more than a tidy hard-working bunch of sloggers. The money and talent is being sucked into yourselves and the London clubs. If the likes of Arse have a so so season then ManU are streets ahead again and again. Nobody else can compete.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Dread....are you saying then...had MUFC lost a few more games then the PL would not be weak?

Just seems that we are getting the blame for having a fine few seasons.

BTW..you'll have to tell me exactly how U think MUFC is sucking all this money in and what the consequence of this is.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Geordie said :

Given/Harper Barton Dabizas Hughes Quinn(would have been Domi) Solano Lee Dyer Speed Cort Shearer

Thats The answer Geodie Two Keepers well allways keep a clean sheet

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Naa..... either/or .... makes no diffrence. I suppose I should have written

Given | Harper

Whatever.... 2 keepers to keep a clean sheet? It'll take more than that at NUFC

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

LR

>>>>>I've always liked the way you defend yer boys...even whan it's obvious yer not 100% right...

And yet you fail to point out what I said that wasn't 100% right. So go on then - put your money where your mouth is - OK no-one's got THAT much money - just tell me what I said that was "not 100% right".

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

the record states we are only 2 games above .500. The only consistent thing about our season is our injury list.... and the fact that we are consistently inconsistent. Sixth place...a bliddy miracle....

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Oh feck off Jonno...stop playing on words will ya...I was merely pointing out that you'd stand your ground IMHO even if you knew your argument..whatever argument it is at the time was not 100% safe from contradiction.

Now I hope the comment about money and my mouth wasn't an INSULT...cos then that would be hypocritical of you wouldn't it....ya know...insulting me...lol

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Typical. You start off a curmudgeonly, pessimistic thread about yer team still being a bit shit and it gets hijacked by the bliddy manc. Can't you let us enjoy anything!? :@)

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

LR

No hypocrisy at all. It was an insult, and is my considered opinion about you, one which I have not seen cause to change. It would be hypocritical of me to have said what a great bloke you are and THEN insult you.

>>>>stop playing on words will ya

Yes - well I can see you're at a disadvantage there ... lol

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Just so as I know where I stand.....

So you think one good game against a depleted Leeds United makes you a good side all of a sudden?

just wondering like

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Difficult to rank a league in any particular year. They have the same issue in horse racing. How do you tell if Derby winner is a good Derby winner or average or poor ?

Generally speaking they look at the distance the first beat the second. So Shergar winning by 10 lengths is viewed as special. Somebody else winning by a short head is not so clear of the rest, and not a classic classic winner. But then what if the second was special, and the first only being just ahead made them extra special. This would be seen in a Derby runner uup going on to win other big races, to 'confirm the form'.

Putting this into Premiership terms then the teams winning the title the last few years have been very very good. This comes from looking at the runners up. Arsenal have been a very very good side and it has taken an exceptional side to beat them. The first year we finished second we got a record number of points for runners up, again franking the quality of the eventual winners. The second year we were runners up Man U got 3 less points as champions than we had the year before has runners up. We were second on goal difference from Arsenal and Liverpool. This looks like a lot of similar averagely good teams all finishing in a heap, and therefore the champs weren't necessarily special.

Man U look like Shergar (and hopefully will have the same long term outlook), but this year you only have to look at the donkeys to see that it isn't a vintage year.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Depleted?? In terms of players? That team on paper looks better than anything ManUre cud muster up. Especially as the Neville sisters score negative marks.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Qualitative assessment - either Sky have been very unlucky in their selection of live games, AND we've got all the poor games out of the way at SJP in the first half of the season - OR the PL is cr@p this year.

My money is on the CL format (ie. too many bloody games) adversely affecting the form of the closest challengers.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

>>>>>So you think one good game against a depleted Leeds United makes you a good side all of a sudden?

No

I base my view on more than one game. It's a view I held before the season started ("all of a sudden" indeed) and I've seen nothing to make me change my mind. When some others wail about the Arse game (fluke scoreline) or the Villa match (five first teamers out including almost the entire midfield) I maintain a consistent view that this is a good squad, better than several on here seem to think. Notice I used the word good. I chose my words carefully. Good. Not great, not worldbeaters. Good, getting better and given average luck (which we have not yet had) on our way back to the upper reaches of the Premier. Actually, I think that what I am saying is stating the obvious. Sixth, speaks for itself really.

>>>>>a depleted Leeds

lol - We were missing a £42m strike force(Cort/Shearer/Dyer), and had our keeper injured the day before the match.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

To my knowledge, Leeds were only missing two regular 1st team players thorugh injury - Ferdinand (I guess!) and Kewell. I would hazard a guess that every other team in the PL is more "depleted" than that.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

Just want to pop in here and take issue with LR (no change there then!). I can't agree that this isn't a poor prem this season. Your lot aren't setting records or anything (very little different from last year in fact and not as good as Newcastle after 24 games in 96) but the rest are nowhere. Last year, after 24 games the team with 43 points was Chelsea and they were fifth - everyone said what a poor season they were having and thought they would be challenging you more. Now the team with 43 points is the Mackems in second place.

The fact is, you haven't got any better - the rest are just pants.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

My own assessment of a "poor premiership" as I called it the other day, is judged on the basis of what we do in the European Cup. Throughout the nineties our champions have never won the European Cup, unlike in Liverpool's era when the English champions (not just Liverpool) won about 7(?) European Cups.

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

In that case Jonno...our PL should be very strong..seeing as we can produce a European Champion from a runner-up! :-)

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2001

What do you lot mean by a weaker PL? All you can point to is the bunching in the middle.I reckon that the present PL is stronger - tactically and in fitness levels than say five years ago. The players are better in general. Perhaps the excitement levels have fallen as managers of weaker teams have learnt to develop defensive strategies. Performances in the European competitions have improved - generally. The present NH side would easily beat their first PL winning side. Rise above received opinion.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

Apart from Newton Heath, everyone is beating everyone else which can be contrued two ways.

First, teams have noconsistency, hence the accusations of a poorer league.

Secondly the poorer teams have improved markedly so they are no longer being roundly beaten like in previous years. It is taking more effort to attain the higher standards and inevitably teams like Liverpool/Arsenal/Leeds are struggling to maintain the levels of consistency that Newton Heath have.

Newton Heath are doing what they always do however, the performances of the lower teams are proving to be difficult for the higher teams to overcome. The teams which are flourishing at the top of the league are those that have worked the hardest, and that may even include us!!

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

You know what the difference is? It's PREDICTABLE. And therefore it's boring.

The rich get richer and the rest just fall by the wayside. 80s Thatcherite policies applied to football = The English Premier League. Welcome.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

To quote the great Bobby Robson, "The most predictable thing about football is it's unpredictability"

I agree Min but only about Manure and their predictability.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

On the evidence of my own eyes, this is the poorest PL season there's been.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

Thank you Dougal.....I was a little bit offended by that Rise Above Perceived Opinion jibe.....

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

Gav - not meant as a jibe - I have been hearing this from all sides. To clear up my thinking -there are two questions:
1. Is the football less exciting?
2. Is the standard of football worse?
Answer to 1. yes, answer to 2 definitely not IMO - if you include tactical ability, fitness and technique.
So if you want to say the PL is poor which of these criteria are you judging it by?
IMHO the present PL teams are in general stronger technically than they were.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

Your point is a fair one Tre. One team might be a whole lot better than all the others who are all very good and better than they were but cancel each other out.

My point is that the standard of reference has to be Europe, where our qualifiers have failed in recent years with only one victory which was a complete fluke. You're probably right that a team today would beat a team of 10 years ago, but relatively, we are falling behind Europe. The old mantra of "too many matches" will not wash here as there were a lot more when Liverpool, Villa and Forest kept bringing the European Cup back to England.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

ITALY - perceived as a better league:
1. Is the football less exciting? YES
2. Is the standard of football worse? NO

Seems to me the poorer sides have learnt spoiling tactics which have resulted in more "shock" results (ie Chelsea not spanking Bradford's arses - and that they and Spurs can't win away from home). There's not so much of the old 11 men behind ball headless defending of the past - a little bit more cultured?

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

>>>>>etc etc.....a depleted Leeds

>>>>>>lol - We were missing a £42m strike force(Cort/Shearer/Dyer), and had our keeper injured the day before the match.

Jonno, if you feel we lack depth then say so. One of the main reasons my mate has a pair of blues on Newcastle finishing above Sunderland this season, is because Sunderland (despite having a good(ish) first team) lack real depth. Now, you're very close to hinting you feel the same way about Newcastle. Shouldn't you therefore have agreed with Dan's opening sentiments?

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

Quite the reverse Gibbo. We were more depleted than Leeds and we still won. An attempt was made to downplay our performance because Leeds were depleted but we were worse off and still won. Great performance despite lacking £42m of talent up front.

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

Thx for the cold water Dan! Ill not feel so down when Chelsea score double figures :-)

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

£42 million yeah...talent?..open to debate

-- Anonymous, January 23, 2001

Thought it might be timely to dust off this thread. Compare Bok's comments on 'Get a Grip' thread. Does my argument still seem perverse, Jonno?

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2001