Go to another church of a different denomination, in fact try several,or better yet, try them all! and see the difference. Where is the true religeon of GOD at? You WILL find it out there. But here??? all a mass does for me is ,EXERCISE. "stand up" "sit down" "stand up " "sit down" A quote of scripture here and there ,alot of pretty shiny things to make it look good and alot of talk about a god named Mary, some words in another language and i'm out the door...."YAHOOOOO!" Then its time to go do some "sining" and then confess them to some guy that i'm supposed to call my father and i'm going to heaven!! But lets not forget to to pray for the dead, so we can get them into heaven. But wait, shouldnt they already be in heaven?I guess not, even the catholics know that or they wouldnt be doing it now would they? But it even gets better, you can "PAY" their way into heaven! What? PAY? Thats it!!hmmmm sounds like some kind of infomercial to me!!lol And the fact that sooo many people have been decieved by this is ridiculous!

-- (m_j510@yahoo.com), January 22, 2001

Answers

Okay. I'm not going to concentrate on the misconceptions you have relating to Confession, Mary (very little, if any, talk of her at a Mass), and (I suppose you mean) indulgences (all of which are *way* off base).

I have been to other churches. Many of them. And student groups such as Intervarsity Christian Fellowship. Now let me tell you what a Mass does for me.

When I'm there I feel the awsome force of 2,000 years of Christian history, beliefs, and traditions (as well as Tradition) being brought to bear on the modern world. The "pretty shiny things" call to mind not just early Christian practices, but reach out to me (as does the Liturgy) from our earliest beginning across time, and empire, and the countless generations who passed before, as well as (to borrow a phrase) countless generations yet unborn who will follow in our footsteps. It engenders a kinship with those earliest believers without whose perseverence in the face of persecution we would have no faith (or actually we probably would be muslim today, but that's another story). That is what a Mass does for me. It is a piece of living history. The only ritual of its kind and vintage anywhere in the world outside or orthodox Judaism. To look at it and soak in all of Christianity from start to present is a beautiful thing.

All of these things stand behind the Mass *and bear witness* to this being the "true religeon (sic) of GOD." I do not know of what cloth you are cut, but protestants seem very accepting of eachother's widely varying forms of worship, yet seem to reject th

-- anthony (antaine@aol.com), January 22, 2001.

Mark:

“Go to another church of a different denomination...” you say? Where would you have us go? I am assuming, being we are Christians, you would allow us to go to another “Christian” church. But, of the 27,000 Christian churches founded in the past five hundred years as “off-shoots” of the Catholic Church, the one true Church founded by Christ, where would you have us go? And once there, will they be able to answer that elusive question that you seem unable to? “Where was their interpretation of the Bible for fifteen hundred years after the death of Christ when Christ said He would be with His Church always? You obviously haven’t read any of the recent threads outlining the very points of our religion you are so quick to make fun of. Mark, insult doesn’t work. If intelligent debate accomplishes one thing, it will have accomplished more than you have accomplished in this thread! I’ve noticed you aren’t (laughing) as much in this thread as in your previous. Could it be you are losing your sense of humour? Could it be that some of what you have been reading is now beginning to make some sense?

God bless,

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), January 22, 2001.

I'm not going to speak to Mark in the language he finds so odd and ridiculous or in the tone we usually take here, of common sense and civility. He doesn't care for that. It appears Mark speaks with his own blend of in-your-face, let's get down, ''fah-gettabout-it!'' style. It is straight out of MTV and Roseann and Jerry Springer. Mark is ''Cool''.

I'll attempt psychology and speak Mark's own lingo. Remember, this is what Mark respects. Not ''Love your neighbor'', or ''What Mass does for me,'' but his own cool language.

*****

Mark, you're a total idiot. Your attitude sucks.

First show us you LOVE GOD, and act right. Get your head on straight. If you're gonna act like a Bozo, I'll give you the Bozo treatment. Why?

Because I dare to talk to you as an equal. Your gifts are from God; please allow the rest of us to see them. Any clown can ''dare'' sincere Catholics to show they aren't worshipping a God named Mary. That stupid remark shows your assinine ignorance, your feeble mind, your lunacy. Do you love God, or are you wasting our time?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 22, 2001.

St. James, pray for us (including Mark).
Immaculate Heart of Mary, beloved mother of God, pray for us (including Mark).

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 22, 2001.

if i'm wasting your time then you are not a TRUE christian, because a christian would give the time to anybody, lest we forget the 10 comandments.Call me an idiot? You pack of wolves! I know it hurts when somone has found you out for what you really are...."MYSTERY BABYLONIAN CHURCH!!!!!!!!This is just like you catholics, ohhh so saintful, then turn on a dime and attack like wolves..THE WORK OF SATAN AT ITS FINEST....but i am here satan , and i will fight with my lord and God till my dying breath to stray anyone from your holds. LET IT BE HEARD, I MARK! WITH MY BROTHER MICHAEL, SHALL SHOW THE WORLD OF YOUR WICKED WAYS! AND WE WITH ARE LORD SHALL OVERCOME!

-- mark (m_j510@yahoo.com), January 23, 2001.

TO EUGENE: I'm an idiot??? my attitude sucks??? I need to grow up??? You act like a CHILD, I suppose you have a bigger daddy or brother than I do, huh? WOW! What a christian you are. but then again you arent a christian, you are catholic...of course you can still confess your sins to your priest then you will be ok. Maybe mary will even let you in heaven, huh? If not, your beloved people will PRAY and PAY your way in, Right? But you can always fall back on that old serpent and his anti christ the pope for some help.

-- mark (m_j510@yahoo.com), January 23, 2001.

Dear Mark!
Dee dat nastee Gene touch a widdo nerve? Poor Marky!

For your information, Mark-- it is no sin, when you state the obvious, and speak the truth. You wallow in ungodly ignorance.

Our Lord did not SIN calling the Pharisees and Scribes a brood of vipers. It was an expression something like I've used here, describing you. I don't attack you ad hominem, I speak truly. You don't know what you're talking about, and you are an ''idiot''. That's really a kind name. Idiots normally aren't to blame for their own ignorance. But yours is willing ignorance. You hear and see the truth, and you spit on it. God forgive you!
Jesus Divine Saviour, have mercy-- Immaculate Heart of Mary pray for your lost children, and hear the prayers of St James our holy patron. Amen--

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 23, 2001.

Mark, I'm not a catholic either but man!! Do you really think you can come into a "CATHOLIC" forum and state a few predjudiced and harmful words and expect these catholics here to respond to you accordingly? Com on Mark, give it up you are a dissgrace to call yourself a believer of God. No God like person would come GUNS LOADED, SHOOT FIRST, and ask questions latter. Get real dude! Try a little patience, it goes a long way. You are just the type that I believe has made it hard for people like myself to have any disscussions with these catholics because you get them in the "HATE PROTESTANT" mode and no one can have a chance of civilized talk. I know where you are coming from, I was once the same, and still occasionally let it get to me as well, but we can change God willing. I still don't agree on all things catholic but I have learned much since my GUNS LOADED days and can even find common graound between us. I have even changed some of my most sincere beliefs after I found out I too was not patient enough. Please Mark ask for forgiveness and try your remarks more patiently and maybe people will take you seriously. Talking civil to one another is not going to taint your soul no matter what your belief.

-- Israel (notofthis@world.com), January 24, 2001.

Isreal: Of all people, I would figured that you should know that Jesus can into Isreal not to show the ppl how nice he was and feal sorry for him when he was beaten... Jesus had a Message! He didnt hold no bars! He called the Religious Leaders of that day That they were of there Father The Devil,.. Wasnt the temple there in Jerusalem a very holy and sacred place, yet Jesus beat them out of there with a whip (truth) cause they were distruberting false doctrine to the public, so they can make a DALLOR!! You cant pay for your salvation, Jesus did that at Calvery! When you get the Holy Spirit, then you will understand,.. we are from 2 seeds,.. and the doctrines that each of us project shows what seed we are from,.. When Jesus Said " I and My Father are ONE" Thats the doctrine that pulled the shuck from the wheat... Dont be a shuck Isreal... live up to your name!

-- Dr.Oizo (hpuxor@whereever.com), January 24, 2001.

--I asked Mark this direct question:

+

*** DO YOU LOVE GOD ? ***

He's had a ''cow'' about an insult to his intelligence, and won't answer that question. OK-- If I ask Israel that question, he might answer none of your business; and if I ask Dr Oizo that question, he might call me schmuck. It's all the same to me. ''False doctrine?''

The Holy Catholic Church of Jesus spreads the most glorious, truest and holiest Doctrine our world has ever known. It happens that within this Church, this doctrine --is found that same LAW taught the Jews, before the coming of Christ-- and even today! ''Thou shalt LOVE The Lord Thy God . . .''

My wish is for everyone who enters this forum to show their love for God not to please me, but to have God receive OUR LOVE today, and reward us with His grace. It wouldn't surprise me to see many startling results come to us from His grace, right here. Even with folks like my friend Mark !510 /

*Hail, Immaculate Heart; pray for us now and at the hour of our death. Pray for this forum, James; and for our love of the Holy Gospel!
Amen /

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 24, 2001.

To Eugene,

You said to show your love for God.

I have seen many temper tantrums here. It would help if before we post we remember : Jesus loving kindness is everlasting. Say that again..." JESUS LOVING KINDNESS IS EVERLASTING "

Truth needs to be told in a loving way. Stop the name calling.

Love, in Christ,

Susan

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), January 28, 2001.

Well, it's true, Susan--
I've called you Gloria Swanson and I've called you indifferent to Christ's Church, and His Vicar on earth. Your past attitude to Mary the Mother of Our Lord verges on indifference; but I've never bothered you much about that.

In fact, while I'm thinking about it, I should explain an important fact to anybody reading this.

The Church teaches us that although Mary's role as Our Mother and Holy Intercessor with Jesus her Son are very precious blessings which God has given us, in themselves they do not require our faith under penalty of sin; as such. One or two Marian dogmas are found in Catholic doctrine. But in cases of invincible ignorance (misunderstanding, for instance) a rejection of these would not cost us our salvation. So, in things such as the Rosary, Marian apparitions, etc., one could refuse to accept these, and still be saved. But wilfully rejecting them is an affront to Jesus Christ, I would think. We depend on His Divine grace in order to gain in sanctity, after all. Should we expect Him to reward us for stripping His Mother of the glory and honor He bestows on her?

Immaculate Heart, we pray your holy intercession; James, Holy Apostle, bless us and pray for us! Amen

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 28, 2001.

Jmj

Hi, Eugene.
You know I love you and praise most of your posts (at least in my heart, if not in public), but this time, I beg to differ with you.
You wrote, "One or two Marian dogmas are found in Catholic doctrine."
I count more than that.
She is "Theotokos" -- Mother of God.
She is "Ever-Virgin."
She was "Immaculately Conceived" and remained free of sin.
She was "Assumed into Heaven."
I believe that these were all defined at Councils or through papal encyclicals.
I'm pretty sure that the Church does not say that a decision against praying the rosary is an "affont to Jesus Christ." Some Catholics just never find it comfortable or helpful to use a rosary, and I find it hard to believe that they are sinning.
And I'm quite sure that the Church does not say that a decision to disbelieve private revelations is an affront -- even approved ones.
But I would am open to changing my mind on either or both of these, if you could show me some persuasive support for what you wrote.

St. James, pray for us.
Holy Virgin of virgins, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 28, 2001.

Well, I think you know I refer to the knee-jerk re-action to the Rosary,and certain other honors paid Our Lady in the Church / by those that deem it Mary worship. An adamant opposition by these folks on sincere though erroneous grounds would probably NOT be seen as endangering their immortal souls, in the way a conscious mortal sin would do.

In a great many unfortunate cases, the error would trace to invincible ignorance, and not willful sin. I'm not sure how a rejection of Marian dogma by non-Catholics is a mortal sin. I'm not prepared to apply any criteria (about dogmatic things) at all, where it concerns our separated brethren. I might breath fire at some of them here. But I'd rather attend to my own faults, before Jesus returns!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 28, 2001.

Oh, I'm sorry, Eugene.
I misunderstood. I didn't realize that (in earlier posts) you were strictly speaking about non-Catholics and their relationship to Marian doctrine/dogmas. I thought that you were talking about what a Catholic must believe about Our Lady.
I think that I agree with everything you just stated. Those of our separated brethren who, with a clear (but ill-formed) conscience, reject all Marian dogmas cannot be considered to be in a state of mortal sin. That's what you are saying, correct?
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 29, 2001.

Well, mine is no theologian's opinion, but I have to think they're sinning. What I don't know is how God will judge them. Once or twice in here, I had reason to warn people; not to make loose comments about the Mother of Our Lord. Just to ''be on the safe side.'' Haha!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 29, 2001.

Dear John, et al--
I reflected a bit, this ''Affront to Our Lord'' aspect of non-Catholic indifference and disrespect. Not just to His holy Mother; even to His Bride the Church.

We are presently in the midst of a liberal wave of thinking. But just because our notions of liberty and tolerance and unquestioning love are the pop culture of this age, doesn't mean Our Lord has gone soft on sin and pride.

I'm wondering if Jesus Christ will readily dismiss the cynical irreverence and mockery that has been directed in our society at His Holy Mother. The evil spoken about His Church is nothing for Him to carp about, after all He predicted it was to come. But why would He be benevolent to a people dead set against honoring His Holy Mother? If it isn't an affront to Him, how much does He really love her? A day is coming when we shall see.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 29, 2001.

The Apostles' Creed continues to be used as the baptismal profession of faith in most Western churches; Orthodox churches prefer to use the later Nicene Creed. In Roman Catholic practice, the Apostles' Creed is also recited in the daily office, before the first and after the last service each day. In most Protestant churches, it is used periodically at Sunday worship. Anglicans and Lutherans use it regularly in morning and evening prayer (matins and evensong).

I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

-- Alberto Ponce (sabueso2@usa.net), February 03, 2001.

-- Alberto Ponce (sabueso2@usa.net), February 04, 2001.

I would like to know why Mr. Ponce is repeating this post into so many other posts? This is the second day he does this, I think. Mr. Ponce--?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 04, 2001.

Mark.I am not Catholic. I am Church of Christ. ( Not Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the regular Church of Christ.It's protestant.)

I fond your posts offensive. You perform here in a textbook modle of one who is projecting ones own insecurities on someone else, or in thsi case, an institution. The institution here is the Roman Catholic CHurch, and the Pau[acy.

Ypu either misrepresent the belifs, or else you have a poor understandign of them. Where you do seem to have a workign knowledge of them you phrase them in a way that will cast them in a bad light, which can be done to anyhtign if one words it in the right way to accomplish this end.

Look at your post, you slander and berate Catholics, for no reason. You came here to yell at them, and why? Do you fain form this? Ypu dont convence anyone of your veiws, indeed the way you word your psots will prevent others form hearign your points, and out them off emideately. It is only that you like to watch catholics get angry, and cause upset.You thrive on this upset. You desire their reactions to be adverse, because in their sufferign you are vendicated. You see, you feel empty and shallow, so you project upon them. If you can bring them down, you dont feel so bad. Besides, by makign Catholics look bad, your own faults ar egignored, arent they mark?

-- ZAR (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 25, 2003.

I AM A CHRISTIAN AND I ATTENED A CHRISTIAN CHURCH! this is all that matters why do we give ourselfs these names. why do we still have religion. when you are christian all you need is the lord our god and to worship him the way you wish, if a person feels they wish to go to mass let them. it may have meaning to them and no one should put any one down for that. all a person may have is a belif and they may wish to hang on to that without people telling them what they should do or how they should do it. all that matters is there christian values and people should respect that no matter if there catholic or of any other denomination. i think that every one should descuss what their teachings are and put each others veiws across in a decent mannor. i dunt no how old u guys are but im only 16 and i think that as a christian there should be no religion it is a base of conflict. BUT THERE SHOULD BE CHRISTIANITY thanks 4 taking my veiws.

-- fern jones (fernfm2@hotmail.com), January 22, 2004.

I'm praying for all of you who are so bitter toward the original Church that Christ himself founded...the Catholic Church.

I am amazed at some of th emisconceptions here. For instance, we almost never use Latin during Mass. We are NEVER required to pay money for anything, let alone told that we will get to heaven if we do. (Though the Church does ask for donations, as do all churches.)

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 22, 2004.

I am amazed at some of th emisconceptions here. For instance, we almost never use Latin during Mass.

But you're supposed to, no?

-- jake (j@k.e), January 22, 2004.

But you're supposed to, no?

No, we have not required the mass to be said in Latin since the 1960s.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@Hotmail.com), January 22, 2004.

Wow, what an attitude! We don't go to mass to GET, we go to worship the living God. Kneeling is rarely, if EVER done, in most churches. That is truly sad! Why would any Christian complain about kneeling before God our Savior who hung on a tree for many long hours for us?

Most often, what you find is seeker-sensitive, if-it-feels-good-to-it attitudes in other churches. No thanks!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 22, 2004.

No, we have not required the mass to be said in Latin since the 1960s.

What does the current teaching say with respect to the use of the Latin language in the liturgy?

-- jake (j@k.e), January 22, 2004.