Praying to the Saints?

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While it is important to realize that Catholics do pray directly to God; sometimes however, they rely on the community of believers to bring their petitions before God. They rely on those here on earth as well as those who have passed on to assist in their petitions to the Father. This can be most beneficial when we are at our weakest and unable or incapable of praying. As for praying to the Saints, the Church believes in a "Communion of Saints" both living and dead. Scripture is full of references outlining the role saints can play in both our daily lives and the lives of those in Purgatory. In 2 Thessalonians 3:1-2 Paul asks his fellow Christians to intercede for him, "pray for us.. that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men..." In Romans 15:30-32 "strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf... that I may be delivered from the unbelievers... and that my service for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints" is another clear reference to an association of holy souls with a definite role to play. Revelation 8:3-4 leaves no doubt of the power of prayer of "holy ones" (an accepted Catholic definition of the word - saints). "Another angel came in holding a censer of gold. He took his place at the altar of incense, and was given large amounts of incense to deposit on the altar of gold in front of the throne, together with the prayers of all God's holy ones!" I won't detail more Bible passages here, however, those of you who desire direct references to scripture when debating such issues, particularly non-Catholic Christians, might want to check out other these passages describing this union of heaven and earth which make up the Communion of Saints, the mystical Body of Christ. (Mark 12:25-27; John 15:1-8; Romans 8:38-39; Romans 3:10-11; Tobit 12:14-15; Luke 20:34-38; Hebrews 12:22-23; Rev. 5:8)

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), January 13, 2001

Answers

What a fine idea you had, Ed -- to summarize these references concerning a subject that often arises here! Thanks so much.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 13, 2001.

Greetings: according those who pray to saints dont know God. Gods word is clear that we can go to God ourselves as long as we repent in Jesus name(turning away from our sins) the wages of sin is death the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord Romans 6:23. God promises eternal life to those who ask for it. The cathalic church twist the truth there buildings, pope, priest doesnt save anyone, God is the same yesterday today, and forever you cant say that about vain man made tradition. Religion doesnt set anyone free Jesus Christ does. To pray to dead people no matter how anyone phrases is an abomination in the eyes of God

-- Alex Jr ruiz (Jesusislife@christianemail.com), January 13, 2001.

Alex, you make many good points. "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Mark 7:7

-- Ben Allen (tomicjek@infosol.com), January 13, 2001.

The problem is that Alex does not accept the doctrine that when a Christian dies in Christ that they remain a fellow Christian and a member of the Mystical Body.

-- Br. Rich SFO (repsfo@prodigy.net), January 13, 2001.

Anyone can quote scripture to make their point. I am not one to openly disagree about religion, I like to research religions and make my own decision. No one can tell me an unbiased answer when I ask a question about the true message of the Bible. I do wonder sometimes why the Catholic Church has their own Bible. If you can answer this for me I would greatly appreciate it.

Renee Carmichael

-- Renee Carmichael (renee_cf@yahoo.com), January 13, 2001.



Jmj

Hi, Renee. [Great name! It means "born anew."]

You asked: "I do wonder sometimes why the Catholic Church has their own Bible." I'm a bit unclear about your meaning, but I'll take a chance and assume that you are wondering why we have 73 books (46 Old Testament, 27 New), rather than 66 books.

The answer is ...
The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus. Therefore,
Catholic apostles and disciples wrote the New Testament books,
Catholic bishops of the first millennium decided which 46 ancient literary works were inspired by God and should comprise the Old Testament,
Catholic bishops also decided which 27 Christian books were inspired by God and should comprise the New Testament,
Catholic monks lovingly hand-copied the whole Bible for 1,400 years,
a Catholic (Gutenberg) first printed the Bible (around 1453),
and Catholics (lay and clergy) have cherished the Bible for its 2,000-year existence. There is more of the Bible quoted in each Catholic Mass than in any protestant service.
Unfortunately, in the 1520s, one of the first protestants decided to remove seven books from the Old Testament, because some of them contained support for doctrines that he did not want to believe nor teach to those who followed him into heresy.

I really liked two things that you wrote, Renee, at the beginning of your message:
1. "Anyone can quote scripture to make their point." Yes. You'll recall that satan quoted it repeatedly in trying to tempt Jesus. We Catholics get bombarded here by people who toss verses at us, having their own personal (inauthentic) interpretation of the verses in mind. And we are repeatedly told to prove what we believe from scripture alone, even though scripture says that not all that is true is contained within the Bible. It is necessary to have recourse to more than the written word to know the whole truth.
2. "I like to research religions and make my own decision." Excellent! That is exactly the right approach -- though I would add that you should pray for divine guidance in making that decision. If you do your research properly, especially looking into the history of Judaism and early Christianity -- thus determining the beliefs of the earliest Christians [known as the "Fathers of the Church"] -- you will come to certain inescapable conclusions: God revealed himself to the Jews, promising them a savior; the savior, his Son Jesus, came to us 2000 years ago, died, rose, and founded the Catholic Church that survives to this very day (and will last until the end of time).

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 14, 2001.


Strong work, Ed.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 15, 2001.


I agree that as one mystical Body of Christ, we saints here on earth are One in Christ with saints who have passed on ahead of us -- and in that way we are a community of believers. No question. And whether or not saints in Heaven pray and intercede for God's will to be done on earth is not the question either, it certainly appears that they do in fact pray and intercede.

The only question in this debate that has any relevance is whether or not saints here on earth can or should communicate or pray directly to saints in Heaven. And none of the scripture references you've cited Ed addresses that question (or any I've ever seen).

We were taught by our Lord how to pray and we have numerous examples throughout the New Testament to confirm those instructions. And not one of them makes even the slightest inference of praying to saints. In fact, praying to saints actually stands in direct opposition to our Lord's instructions and example. That's why this topic remains one of many insurmountable obstacles.

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), January 15, 2001.


Jmj

The topic is only an "insurmountable obstacle," David, if a person clings to "sola scriptura," which is an untenable principle.
What is still more troubling is that you seem to be following a more radical position than simple "sola scriptura."

By the "simple" principle, one must affirm what seems to be presented as true in Holy Writ, and one must reject what seems to be presented as false.
By your radical position, though, one must also reject what is not even mentioned. This is the kind of position held by certain sects that refuse to use modern musical instruments or hymnals or church-bells or electric lights, etc., because the Bible does not give them examples to follow or permission to do so. They don't see the first Christians doing something, so they don't do it. Using a little imagination, one can see that other harmless actions/beliefs would be banned, since written permission for, or examples of, them is omitted. (I would venture to guess that some things that you do or believe are actually against a "radical sola scriptura" position. If that suspicion is correct [and I don't guarantee that it is], it would mean that you are applying the principle selectively to yourself, while holding Catholics to the full strict standard.)

And so, since we are convinced that simple sola scriptura cannot be defended -- and even less so, radical sola scriptura -- we propose to you that (even without your having to assent to the existence of Sacred Tradition) you need not find permission in the Bible to join us in requesting the intercession of our brothers and sisters in the Communion of Saints, be their bodies dead or alive.
In reality, though, David, I would not even concede that the Bible fails to provide us the permission that you think is explicitly required -- as long as we are willing to make a very logical deduction. The souls of the saints are alive in Christ. St. Paul repeatedly asks "the saints" to whom he writes to "pray for us." Since the prayer of a just person is of great avail, and since the saints in heaven are at least as just as those on earth, it stands to reason that St. Paul would have asked them also to "pray for us." In my opinion, if someone says that St. Paul would not have done that, it indicates either a sincerely illogical thought pattern or an insincere prejudice against a Catholic practice. And it is not just Catholics, but Eastern Orthodox, Armenians Apostolics, and Copts who do this -- i.e., all those churches that go back to the first century. Only the relatively "infant-aged" bodies of Christians, who lack sufficient contact with the Church's "roots," reject prayer through the intercession of saints in heaven.

A wonderful former Protestant, James Akin, has a great Internet site. He treats this subject on a couple of independent pages. I highly recommend them: First Page
Second Page

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 15, 2001.


Dear David,
You mustn't take my answer as a rebuke. I want you just to know what Catholics think; accept it or not. A prayer to the saint is not what you think. No saint can become the answer to your prayer.

He/she is not the one that answers that prayer. He/she asks the favor-- the granting of our petition, of Our Lord. The saint implores for us, out of love-- from Jesus, from the Holy Trinity-- mercy and help for us. As if, you-- in prison; begged the help of one on the outside; ''Go-- seek pardon for me. Go; don't let me be forgotten. I'm in prison and I need someone to fight for me. To go to the top; where my help might come from.'' We are in a valley of tears; our prayer rises up to God. But we are sinners.

A saint in the glory and presence of Jesus Christ and the Eternal Father-- has our petition before him/her. It is the prayer of a Christian in need. Can the saint not hope to bring us relief, a good word from God?

Let's be clear, David. You mention that it isn't shown in scripture; therefore you could not accept this premise. How is it you require this? Scripture itself never said-- ''Everything God commands is here. Don't accept what is not commanded in the Scriptures.'' Does that mean you would place limits on what God may do? God is limited in His Will, by the scope of the Holy Bible?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 16, 2001.



Simple question from a Protestant to a Catholic...

Is praying to the Saints a REQUIREMENT of the Catholic Church?

Kindest Regards,

Craig Miller

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), January 17, 2001.


Craig,

No.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 17, 2001.


Dear Craig Miller,
You ask if the Church requires Catholics to pray to saints. Frank says no, and he's correct. The Church implicitly encourages it however, I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong). But, again-- this kind of prayer, is certainly not adoration, or worship. We may ask a saint for help, through his prayer at the feet of Our Lord in heaven. We may then give them thanks, for taking our petitions before the throne of the Almighty. But always it is God's mercy and help we are seeking. If a sort of ''power'' is ascribed to the saint, it's not his power to bring God down to us, or change God's Divine Will. Far from it. God has all power and grace and mercy in heaven and on earth. Saints come to Him in supplication, and He dispenses the gift and grace and mercy according to His Will.

Simple people all over the world place great faith in the ''powers'' of a saint. But they really know any response they might receive from God is due to God's immense love for the saint; conceding that favor to a saint is God's Divine reward; and a great proof of His *joy* in that saint. God is Love-- the saints in heaven know that, with infinite certainty, and I suspect they love to bring Him our prayers; each time He says ''YES'' they must dance and celebrate in heaven. They WIN another Celestial Lottery! And they've won it for US!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 17, 2001.


Thank you, Craig.
After recent struggles here, it is refreshing to have a respectful and insightful question.

I support the answers of Frank and Eugene. It is not required/necessary for a Catholic to address prayers "to/through/with" saints, but (since it is something done since the first century) it is encouraged.

I have read or viewed hundreds of testimonies of people who have converted to Catholicism -- most of them from a variety of Protestant denominations. Some had been praying through the intercession of Mary even before they became interested in Catholicism. The great majority had been against prayer "to" saints. Of these, some gave it a try while preparing to convert, and they loved it -- while some avoided it until some time after being received into the Church. It took this last group a long time to become accustomed to it, but eventually most of them also loved it. They find out how consoling it is to chat with our "big brothers and sisters" in the faith -- our heroes or role models as disciples of Jesus.
No doubt there is a number of Catholics, both "cradle" Catholics and converts, who prefer to offer ALL their prayers only to our heavenly Father through his Son. There is nothing wrong with this.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 17, 2001.


I have a question or two. And before I begin, let me say that I am NOT trying to start any fights or discourage Catholics in any way, shape or form. I am simply trying to understand. That said....if we are not to believe in sola scriptura, how can we go off of what MAN tells us? I know...it all goes back to the apostles but if you look at the Inquisition, you can say now, well, they were wrong. They shouldn't have done that and apologize for it. But in fifty years, will there be another apology for something said/done today? Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Hope so. And as far as asking the saints to go to God to ask for a favor for us..someone here once said that you should go directly to God for favors. Since He is the only one that can grant them, why should we ask someone else to act as a go between? Don't you think God would be saying gee, why couldn't they come ask me themselves? And I would hope that God would grant my favor, not because he loves that particular saint but because he loves ME. And would someone care to explain the inverted cross pictures at the jesus is lord website? Yes, I saw that link here the other day and I checked it out. Maybe I shouldn't have but I did. And the pictures of the pope sitting in a chair with an inverted cross on it just struck me as odd. And yes, they were real pictures. Not doctored. So, anyone? And again....I'm really not looking to get bashed here. Anyone that knows me here knows I ask out of genuine sincerity and search for the truth. Thank you.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), January 18, 2001.


Dear Jackie--
''Inverted'' cross? Hmm. I'll go and see. A cross is a cross, isn't it? I know the Pope carries a staff with the crucifix modelled with sort of drooping arms. It is ''modern'', I guess.
Certainly we can go directly to God with prayer. I do it every day, constantly. Catholics do ask intercession from a saint, when they wish to-- it isn't anything more than an option, Jackie. That is all!

Our Blessed Mother is probably the only saint in heaven that we call upon with any real frequency. You may think this following reason is just bunk, but it is entirely sincere, and we think legitimate and pleasing to Our Saviour Jesus Christ:

/ Mary is known (not opinion) to have made apparitions before her children (one wasn't even a Catholic yet) --in person. Her own words bear testimony to her love for us, and to the love God has for each one of us. She has told visionaries of the sorrow it causes Jesus to see the great sin so many souls live in; and our need for prayer and repentance. She assured them God is indeed loving, merciful and generous to all sinners. She assures all Catholics at least, her children can call upon her for her help, to receive graces from Our Saviour her Son; to offer Him their love through her.

As special signs of this love she has for us, and the great love she knows He gives her, many signs have been granted us at various of the places where she's appeared. These number from only the recent past (Fatima, Lourdes, Knock, etc.) to ancient times. Many faithful have received miraculous cures and other answers to their petitions. Great agnostics have been converted to the Catholic faith-- receiving that grace from God through Mary's prayers and intercessions. Why wonder then, that hundreds of thousands come to her for help? Her shrines on earth are many and all inspire love for Jesus her Son. She is very emphatic of our need for His mercy-- not hers, but God's, the Holy Trinity.

Now, many have questioned the reality of these events. They've tried to explain them away as hysteria, and fraud and credulity of ignorant folks. Even the Catholic bishops in many cases have raised objections, and cautioned the faithful not to fall for any trick. The clergy is well aware of the devil's role in many hoaxes; it is rare for the clergy to give approval of any authenticity-- until it's scrupulously investigated.

It would amaze you; just read the history of Lourdes, in France, 1858. A girl barely in her teens, Bernadette. The clergy there tried to shut her up. In no uncertain terms! An attempt was made to prove she was retarded, her own parents locked her up; nobody believed she had seen Mary.

In fact, Jackie, Bernadette didn't even realize it was Mary at all, for some weeks. She just told them all it was ''A beautiful Lady.'' You think it was trumped up? Later on, many miraculous cures spontaneously occured, as Mary's promises were fulfilled. The medical authorities were unable to explain them. Their files are solid evidence of some unknown power.

There are people in this forum who may want to give the credit to demons, etc., or black magic-- But remember Our Lord's reply to the Scribes when they claimed He was casting out demons through a demon of His own. He told them, a city and a house divided against itself will not stand. If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself (Matt, 12: 25-29). The devil curing the crippled and terminally ill, for repenting their sins and praying to Jesus? Because Mary takes our prayers to her Divine Son. It's Jesus who works miracles at her requests-- according to God's Will. If there is no miracle that doesn't mean He didn't hear our prayers. We have to resign ourselves to God's Will; that is what is called ''carrying our cross daily.''

Go to a different thread here, Jackie, There we can discuss the Inquisition. You may better understand how ''man'' is not much better off acting with the Bible than without the Bible. Many people were very unjustly burned at the stake by Protestants in those days. They all believed in ''Sola Scriptura.'' Did the Bible teach them to demonize the Church? They think they are interpreting the Word of God when they vilify the Church that Jesus loves; the holy Catholic Church. But that's another subject. Excuse me for prolonging this message! God bless you!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 18, 2001.


Thank you all for your kind responses.

My question was triggered by my daughter. Her name is Cecilia, named after the patron saint of music (as if you didn't know :) ). A picture of Saint Cecilia hangs over her bed and she "confessed" that she speaks to Saint Cecilia quite often. My wife and I assured her that there was nothing wrong with "girl talk" and it was neat to have friends in high places. Besides, the Protestants don't have ALL the answers. *LOL*.

Kindest regards,

(:raig Miller

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), January 18, 2001.


Dear Craig--
Hey! My middle name is Cecil. My birthday, November 22 is the feast of Saint Cecilia. Yes-- and I'm mad about music! I've read the story of this saint, and it is stupendous. You ought to look it up, Craig. I'm not trying to pull anything on you. I just think it would fascinate you and your baby. Bless you, your wife, and little Cecilia!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 18, 2001.

"And would someone care to explain the inverted cross pictures at the jesus is lord website? Yes, I saw that link here the other day and I checked it out. Maybe I shouldn't have but I did. And the pictures of the pope sitting in a chair with an inverted cross on it just struck me as odd. And yes, they were real pictures. Not doctored. So, anyone?"

Yes, jackiea, that is definitely a bad place to visit. We have to be vigilant. As the Bible warns us, the devil is out there looking for people whose faith is weakening, just as a prowling lion is out there looking for weakening animals. He is also looking for people with strong faith and trying to weaken it. We have to be careful not to let those who hate our faith take advantage of us. They will try every imaginable trick to fool us and to poison (against us) those non-Catholics whose hearts are open and seeking for the truth.

I just looked at those photos that you mentioned. If you would stop and think about it, I'm sure that you would have to admit that, in the Catholic churches you've visited, and on all the vestments worn by priests/bishops/pope that you have seen, and in all the great shrines, the cathedrals, and St. Peter's Basilica that you have seen on TV -- you have seen ZERO inverted crosses. That is because we don't use inverted crosses in our Church. And if you would stop and think about it, you would recall that there is nothing in our faith that is in the least bit favorable toward the devil, that the pope always preaches to lead us to holiness and God, not to evil and the devil. For these reasons, if we have any faith at all, we can immediately scoff and wave off, as meaningless "flukes," such things as those oddball photos you mentioned.

But let us, for a moment, take the photos seriously anyway. What do they tell us?
First, if you look closely at that batch of photos, you will see that the pope and another bishop have normal crosses, not inverted crosses, on their vestments.
Second, what looks like an inverted cross is not something painted on or stuck to the chair. Rather it is a section that has been cut out of the chair-back, presumably to provide ventilation for the pope's back. Why would he need ventilation? Where was he? The CNN caption says: "POPE VISITS HOLY SITE OF SERMON ON THE MOUNT." He was visiting Israel! What does that very fact tell us? The whole set-up for that outdoor Mass, including the chair, was just built by local artists and craftsmen for the special event. The pope just arrived at the Sea of Galilee and celebrated Mass there. So neither he nor 99.9% of the people present had ever seen that chair, and it will probably never even be used again. The whole thing is a fluke. It is an unfortunate thing that anti-Catholics (and Catholics of weak faith who are always looking for signs, contrary to Jesus's command) sometimes let their imaginations run wild and start "seeing" all kinds of that don't really exist -- inverted satanic crosses on chairs, images of people in cloud formations, and so forth.

Now, let's turn to something else that you mentioned: "If we are not to believe in sola scriptura, how can we go off of what MAN tells us? I know...it all goes back to the apostles but if you look at the Inquisition, you can say now, well, they were wrong. They shouldn't have done that and apologize for it. But in fifty years, will there be another apology for something said/done today? Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Hope so."

This is no problem. Don't let it trouble you. You need to take "doctrine" -- what is taught by the pope and bishops commissioned by the Lord to teach about faith and morals -- and separate it completely from "practice" -- the living out (virtuous or sinful) of Catholic lives by individuals (laity or clergy). As Jesus told us, we will always have weeds growing up with the wheat. There have always been individual Catholics who have been very bad -- or who have been basically good, but have made bad choices sometimes. Some have treated people of other religions badly. Some have practiced racism. Even you and I have to admit that we have done some bad things. Every pope and every bishop has been a sinner -- some even very terrible sinners.

While we know that the popes can make proclamations of doctrine that are "infallible" (error-free), no one ever said that popes and bishops are "impeccable" (sin-free). But their sins (or the sins of crusaders), even if very great, do not prove that the Church is evil or wrong or not the true Church of Jesus!
What we learn in our Church is based on Scripture and Apostolic Tradition -- not scripture alone. But "Tradition" is not "what MAN tells us" (to use the words of your question. Instead Apostolic Tradition is that "font" (source) of divine revelation by which GOD talks to us through the perennially handed-down, spoken words of man. (Scripture is that "font" by which God talks through written words.) These are twin and inseparable fonts, the Church has always told us. Besides having the fullness of divine revelation (not just part of it), we have 2000 years of popes and bishops giving us totally dependable interpretation of the tough-to-understand parts of Scripture and Tradition. No other body of Christians has these guarantees. In other places, people have to figure everything out on their own -- in essence, each being his/her own "pope." And that is the fruit of that invention of the 16th century, "sola scriptura" -- a bitter fruit indeed.

Anyway, I'm trying to point out that, although what we are TAUGHT in the Catholic Catechism cannot be wrong, what people do (such as the bad actions in an inquisition or a crusade) can sometimes be wrong. And that is why, yes -- if some of us Catholics mess up badly -- another pope may be apologizing, a century from now, for sins we committed in the 20th or 21st century. Still, I would caution you to be quite skeptical of what the secular media and non-Catholic writers say about such things as the inquisitions and crusades. These folks are often very unfriendly toward our Church and may not take sufficient care to verify their "facts." If you want to know the whole truth and nothing but the truth about Catholic Church history, please look for the series of history books (now four read-able volumes, through about the year 1625) by Dr. Warren Carroll, a man who converted to Catholicism after realizing from his studies that we are in Jesus's true Church. The first volume (from the 1970s) is "The Founding of Christendom," and the fourth (just published) is "The Cleaving of Christendom." If Dr. Carroll is blessed to live longer, he will write more volumes.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 18, 2001.


Oops! I forgot to mention that Chris Butler has essays at his "Sacred Heart" Internet site with the following titles [and you know how great he writes]:
1. Why do Catholics believe that Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture go together?
2. What about the Inquisition?
You can get there by clicking here. JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 18, 2001.

Joshua:

In your second post of this thread, you brought up two points I would like to address. Firstly, you said, “ I cannot find anywhere in the Bible where Jesus refers to Mary as His Mother, but of course she was His birth mother.” Although you recognize Mary is the mother of Jesus, there is a subtle insinuation here that if Jesus didn’t say it then it cannot be true! What are you saying here? Are you taking “sola scriptura” one step further and discounting all others truths if they were not uttered by Jesus, Himself? I don't think so! An insinuation has no value when debating unless you are prepared to stand behind it and defend it. It is merely a crass ploy to gain a psychological advantage in an argument, usually when physical evidence is lacking. The second point I would like to raise is your comment “I guess what you're saying is that Mary must be able to hear our prayers. However I can't see anywhere in the Bible where that is the case.” Our Church, the Catholic Church, is a Church of Heaven and Earth. We also refer to it as the Mystical Body of Christ wherein all souls on earth, in purgatory and in heaven share the same charity toward God and one another. This charity that is shared with God and with one another is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods: by the blood of Jesus (this is Jesus’ intermediary role you referred to in an earlier post in this thread) (1 Tim. 2:5). In His blood all souls in heaven, in purgatory and on earth are united. Catholics do not pay lip service to this very important aspect of the “Body of Christ”. The entire Church is strengthened by this fraternal charity or concern for one another. It makes us one in a stronger, more profound way. Just as our Eucharist unites us all together in Christ, so too does our “communion” or mutual love and concern we share with the saints and one another unite us all together in Christ. It is a union of the living and the dead, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all who is above and in all and through all” (Eph. 4:4-6). There is your direct reference to a union, a communion, with those who have passed on and continue to play a vital role in the destiny of those who remain here on earth. There is not three bodies, one in heaven, one in purgatory and one on earth. Oh no! Beyond a shadow of a doubt, there is but one body, the Body of Our Lord and Saviour! Our Father is “in all, through all”. He completes our “union”. You cannot separate out those who are not living in this world. Scripture is clearly saying this. Similarly, those who are alive and would pray for you are not praying in vain, their words are being heard and responded to. To claim otherwise is to insult the Holy Sacrifice! He died for all! By virtue of the sharing in His Blood, our oneness, Jesus is an intermediary, I am an intermediary, you are and intermediary, the saints are intermediaries, and yes, Mary is an intermediary! If I am one with Jesus, then how can I not be an intermediary if we acknowledge that Jesus is? All children of God have a redemptive power in their prayer bestowed upon them by the Blood of the Lamb! Wether they are alive or dead! We can all intercede for each other by virtue of the love we share as children of the Lamb. “Be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved and gave Himself up for us...” (Eph. 5:1-2) Would a kind and loving God cut off, or turn a deaf ear, to the prayers of those who have passed on? To do so would be to admit their lives after death are meaningless, that they do not share equally in the Kingdom of God, that they are no longer one with God. This clearly is not the case.

God Bless,

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), January 20, 2001.


I beg everyone's pardon, my last post in this thread was posted in error. It should have been posted to "Mary's Role". I have since made this correction. Sorry!

God Bless,

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), January 20, 2001.


Dear Ed,
It's probably better he doesn't find it there, he will only seize on your saying Jesus is an intermediary (go-between) in the same way as all others in the Communion of Saints, where Timothy says One Mediator. There is an important difference. One Mediator is Jesus, sitting at the right hand of the Father. No one else does.

It isn't simple to explain to a non-Catholic what the ''Beatific Vision'' is. Therein is the explanation for how saints in heaven can receive the prayers of the Church Militant on earth. They see and hear a prayer because God sees, hears and allows the saints to share it. I have to doubt Joshua can accept this. He's intolerant of what God will not say to him plainly in the Holy Bible. It is part of the spiritual poverty of the so-called Reformation. We Catholics have had the guidance of the Church and the Holy Spirit, and even many Catholics do not understand the Beatific Vision.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 20, 2001.


Jmj

[This is a follow-up post for Jackiea. She asked about the photos of the pope using a large chair that appeared to have an "inverted cross" on the back -- as depicted on a page at an anti-Catholic site recommended to us by a less-than-sympathetic visitor. It may be good to re-read her question and my answer (above) before continuing.]

All right. In my previous answer, I scoffed at the idea that there was an intentional use of a (satanic) inverted cross, and I think that I gave plausible reasons for my stand. However, from time to time since I made that post (on January 18), I have wondered to myself, "Could the artisan who built that chair have intended to make an inverted cross -- and, if so, why? Would there not have been someone to approve or disapprove its use at the papal Mass in the Holy Land?"

And then it finally came to me! The old memory clicked on! The artisan probably did intend to carve an upside-down cross -- but it was not with satan in mind. Rather he/she may have thought it a particularly apt symbol for the successor of St. Peter. What in the world do I mean by that?
Here is what the (old) Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about the death of the first pope: "Concerning the manner of Peter's death, we possess a tradition -- attested to by Tertullian at the end of the second century and by [third-century Church Father] Origen (in Eusebius, 'History of the Church,' II, i) -- that he suffered crucifixion. Origen says: 'Peter was crucified at Rome with his head downwards, as he himself had desired to suffer.'"

The story goes that St. Peter did not feel himself worthy to die in the same manner as his beloved Jesus, so he asked to be turned upside down. Naturally, this happened long before there was any "satanism" with inverted crosses. Sorry to have to say this, but I know that those who hate Catholicism will not accept the inverted cross as symbolic of St. Peter, because they are so ignorant that they don't even believe that St. Peter was ever in Rome (as bishop or martyr under the evil emperor Nero). But, as shown in the Encyclopedia, we have historical and theological testimony from the second and third centuries of the Christian era telling us the truth about this.

St. Peter, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 29, 2001.


JFG,

On St. Peter, it truly fills me with sadness to think that a man who in the end had such faith as to think himself *unworthy to be murdered* in the same fashion as our Lord should have his sacrifice rewarded in the twenty-first century as being a supposed symbol of Satanism. But I also admit that that's the first thing I think of when I see an inverted cross, instead of St. Peter's crucifixion. I hope the Lord and Peter will forgive me for it, but I really think it's because Hollywood has to some degree had more influence on me than the NT! Can you believe it? I wouldn't have, but what other explanation is there?

In any event, I'll start adding prayers for increased wisdom to my list.

Thanks,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 29, 2001.


Oops,

For our Protestant brothers, to save you some trouble (and correct myself ;-) ), let me state that by "NT" I meant "events associated with the NT" and not that St. Peter's crucifixion was detailed in the NT, which it isn't.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 29, 2001.


Just co-incidentially, my old friend the Plymouth Brethren preacher was plumb speechless once, with a problem I posed him. I had him unawares, and asked an unrelated question of him. Unrelated to the most current discussion.

I asked him ''Paul's martyrdom was in Rome, and he was beheaded. Paul was a Roman citizen, and they were not crucified. But Galileans, well . . .'' --I saw he was receptive, and asked if he knew the manner of Saint Peter's martyrdom. He eagerly told me, ''Peter was crucified upside-down at his own request; because he didn't feel worthy of the same death His Saviour had died.''

I said, ''Bravo! You're correct. Where does it say this in the Holy Bible?'' It blindsided him a moment. ''Well-- Ah! The passage in a yeah!'' At which point I said, you have just answered correctly, thanks to your knowledge of Sacred Tradition! --He denied it, but it was too late.

These folks are not so dumb, you see. They realize many things are true which aren't always found written in the Bible. It just doesn't pay them to acknowledge it.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 29, 2001.


Thank you, Frank. Yes, the media (including cinema) can affect us profoundly.
Thanks for that revealing anecdote, Eugene. I would say that the only Christians who have no "tradition" are those rare birds in distant foreign lands who are self-taught converts, having nothing but a copy of the Bible (without "traditional" foot-notes, of course!). Everyone else is following some "tradition" or other (the real thing or an imitation).
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 29, 2001.

Jmj

Returning to Ed's original topic on this thread, "Praying to the Saints," I wanted to copy here the words of a humble and holy man who has been canonized a saint. I just stumbled across them in a little old magazine:

"The worship that we render to God is very different from the honor we render the saints. It is worship of adoration and dependence. We worship God with faith, hope, and charity, and with a profound humbling of our souls before His supreme majesty, as being our Creator and our final rest.

"But the honor we give to the saints is a feeling of respect and veneration for the favors which God has granted them, for the virtues that they practiced, and for the glory with which God has crowned them in heaven. We commend ourselves to their prayers, for God will always hear them.

"We too can be saints and we must all strive to become so. The saints were mortals like us, weak and subject to passions, as we are, but we must be like them and renounce the sinful pleasures of the world, shunning the evils of the world and remaining faithful to grace.

"We must take the saints for our models, for we should never forget that we must either be saints or be damned, that we must live either for heaven or for hell. There is no middle way."

--------------------
St. James, pray for us.
Mother undefiled, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 31, 2001.


Renee,

The simple truth is that the Catholic church was not founded by Jesus. Catholic belief is that Christ founded the Catholic church on Peter. The truth is that Christ founded his Church (body of believers) on the revelation that Peter had which was that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, see Matt 16:16.

Heavenly Father I pray that you open the eyes and ears and hearts of those who do not recognize the revelation of Peter as being the 'rock' on which Christ's Church is founded, in the name of my wonderful Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Amen.

-- Ben Allen (tomicjek@infosol.com), February 13, 2001.


Ben

please see all the other threads in which this was dealt with. Answer the ones relating to KEFA and go from there. If you have no answer for the KEFA argument, please put this line of thought aside. If you do have an answer for it, I'd love to hear what it is.

...............................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 13, 2001.


Forgive me, Ben Allen, but the simple truth is precisely what you have decided to skirt. The way you clumsily work the context of Jesus Christ's words --So plain a child wouldn't make a mistake: Thou art Peter-- and upon this Rock (Peter) I will build my Church,'' --and try to make it mean something else; is a ploy that Protestants devised to deny the Pope! Before the Reformation so-called, nobody had ever dreamed of such an interpretation.

I wish to make a point clear to you, Ben. If you do or if you don't-- ever accept the Catholic Church, for your own reasons. That's OK! However, one fine Judgment Day you will be accused by Our King and Judge Jesus Christ-- of Bowdlerizing His own clear words! It will be apparent before the living and the dead all assembled, that you-- made a LIAR out of Jesus Christ. Forget about churches, and doctrines and Bibles! It will be you against Him! Don't ever forget, I told you so!

Hail Mary, Full of Grace! Holy Apostle and Saint James, in your Heavenly Reward --Pray for us! Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 13, 2001.


ouch, eugene, that's *much* better than what I was going to say...

.......................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.


Eugene,

I would say to you, one fine Judgment Day you may be accused by Our King and Judge Jesus Christ-- of Bowdlerizing His own clear words! It will be apparent before the living and the dead all assembled, that you-- made a LIAR out of Jesus Christ through the false teachings of your church.

-- Ben Allen (tomicjek@infosol.com), February 14, 2001.


Good move, Ben-- You plagiarize my words. Can't think of any reply of your own brand? Just the same preposterous protestant hooey?

Save it for your Sunday School Kids. We're mostly adults here.

God bless you, Ben. And bring you back to the Church of your Catholic ancestors.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 14, 2001.


Now, now. I do actually see some merit in posing someone their own questions back again. I've done it myself. It gets the writer to make sure that their statements are more objective than subjective.

The standard I like to use is to make sure that the other guy cannot feel the same things about you. If he can (right or wrong) our words lose their meaning. .........................................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.


Eugene and Anthony,

You will note if you read my last post correctly that it is different to Eugene's on one very important point.

-- Ben Allen (tomicjek@infosol.com), February 14, 2001.


Anthony,

In reply to an earlier question of yours I would say show me anywhere in the Epistles where it makes mention that Peter is the head of the 'church'. Surely such an important matter would of been discussed at least once by the Apostle Paul at the very least; but no it isn't mentioned by him nor is it mentioned by Peter himself nor John nor the writer of Hebrews. Now to claim that just because it isn't mentioned in the Epistles, that it doesn't mean it wasn't fact, is stretching it to the ridiculous.

-- Ben Allen (tomicjek@infosol.com), February 14, 2001.


OK, all right Ben: You took all I wrote then added ''false teachings''.

These are all the same ones that your own ancestors believed. Unless you come from Kazhakstan or somewhere.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 14, 2001.


+

From the book of Jude:

...(8)these dreamers nevertheless also defile the flesh,scorn lordship, and revile glorious beings.

(10)But these people revile what they do not understand and are destroyed by what they know by nature like irrational animals.

(11)Woe to them! They follow the way of Cain...and perished in the rebellion of Korah.(examples of rebellious men)

(12)..."In the last time there will be scoffers..."

(19)These are the ones who cause divisions; they live on the natural plane devoid of the spirit.

(22)On those that waver, have mercy; save others by snatching them out of the fire; on others have mercy with fear, abhorring even the outer garment stained by the flesh.

I pray I haven't taken any of this out of context. If I have please correct me. Thats positive proof for me that the Saints in Heaven are to be honored and not reviled.

-- Michael (Michael007@aol.com), February 14, 2001.


I beg to differ. Both esteemed modern (non-Catholic) sources such as the Encyclopaedia Britannica *and* primary sources (ones contemporary to the events in question) uphold the simple historical fact that from AD33-AD1000 the Bishop of Rome was the DE FACTO head of the Church. All other regional churches deferred to him in all matters until the Orthodox split. Even then, that split was comparitively small and the vast, vast majority of the faithful still deferred to the teachings of Rome. Now, 500 years after the reformation, the total number of Catholic faithful outnumbers all protestants, Orthodox, and other pseudo-Christian groups put together (something like 1/5 the population of the world looks to Rome for guidance). This information is easily verified. The fact that Rome had the final say didn't NEED to be written down. The epistles dealt with problems or questions that popped up in the new communities after the initial apostle moved on to the next country. I know you may find this hard to believe, but it was simply never a question. The apostles who knew Jesus knew that his intent was to have Peter be the final earthly authority amongst the twelve. They may have had their disagreements, they were human beings, after all, but history tells us that disagreements were always resolved with a final word from Rome, both at the very start, and for the next 800 or so years until the time I think we can both stipulate Rome was the leading voice in the Church.

In short, it has only become an "important matter" in the last 500 years or so (with some exceptions), initially it was what I would term a "self-evident matter."

................................................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.


sorry, my last post was for Ben.

Michael,

depending on your definition of "honored" I don't even think you'll get protestants to disagree with you, their question is, "can [the saints] intercede for us" "is it wrong to pray to them and not directly to God"

............................................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.


oh, and ben, I was sticking up for you. I noted your difference, and while I don't agree (the teachings of the Church being false), I felt that you chose an effective and acceptable way to respond.

that's all I was saying .......................................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.


Eugene,

No that is not what I meant. I actually said "may be accused" whereas you said "will be accused ". Therein lies a huge difference.

-- Ben Allen (tomicjek@infosol.com), February 14, 2001.


Anthony,

I checked on one stat at the Encyclopedia Britannica just out of curiosity and I found that the number of Catholic and non-Catholic Christians around the world are fast becoming a 50-50 split. Roman Catholics number a little over 1 billion and non-Catholic Christians number over 900 million. Here's the site with the stats, click on global/religion to see the numbers.

http://www.xist.org/

Also, while I'll agree that the Bishop of Rome became the defacto head of the Church, it was not as early as you state. According to most church history texts (Catholic ones included), each of the regional bishops shared equal authority over their own regions -- in fact, if I recall correctly, they were each referred to locally as pope.

Because Rome was the largest of the regional Churches, the Bishop of Rome always carried a strong influence, but it was hundreds of years into Church history before several Church leaders began to identify Rome as the single head over the other Churches. I believe that position was first introduced in a letter by one of the well-nown Church Fathers and that started the ball rolling. I'll have to go digging some to recall all of the details, but I'm sure you already know them. It's easier to simply proclaim it as you did, but that's not entirely accurate. The Bishop of Rome did become recognized as the undisputed head, but it took several centuries before this was universally recognized, and as you mentioned, it never really took hold in the East.

Also, don't you find it interesting that the very keys of Heaven that Jesus gave to Peter in Matthew 16:19, he also gave to the rest of the apostles in Matthew 18:18?

And the statement that he was going to build his church on Peter was understood by Paul to mean ALL of the apostles, not just Peter as he states in Ephesians 2:20 " . . . built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ himself as the chief cornerstone".

And there you have it. Straight from scriptures itself. The foundation of the Church is not Peter alone, but all of the apostles and prophets together. The only special rock in the foundation that Paul identifies is Jesus who is the chief cornerstone, nothing specifically about Peter. To argue otherwise is to deny the scripture.

Also, my understanding is that the Catholic intepretation of the rock Jesus referred to as being Peter himself is a fairly recent one. Even some very prominent Catholic Church leaders/teachers said it was in reference to the revelation that Peter made, not to Peter himself that Jesus was referring.

Anyway, I don't expect this post to change anyone's mind, but I thought it seemed relevant to interject it.

For what it's worth, while I do not believe that Peter was given any special designation among the apostles, I do understand the practical necessity of having a centralized Church government and why it probably had to evolve that way. It's just that I believe the Church should be run on the model Jesus built, with a group of apostolic leaders (e.g. 12) coming into agreement before the Lord in the matters of faith and conduct.

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), February 14, 2001.


"Catholic and non-Catholic Christians around the world are fast becoming a 50-50 split. "

But that still means that a majority of the faithful are Catholic (by roughly a bit less than the population of the United States). There's one other thing, each of the protestant groups believes something different. So simply lumping them all together as "protestants: 900.000.000" doesn't say very much. Which one of their "revelations" is the correct one and why?

"Also, while I'll agree that the Bishop of Rome became the defacto head of the Church, it was not as early as you state."

I disagree. Off the top of my head, I know that there was a question of power sharing when the Imperial Capital was moved to Constantinople. Many of the regional churches felt that the church in Constantinople should become the centre of the Church along with the Empire. Rome said no, and so no it was.

"According to most church history texts (Catholic ones included), each of the regional bishops shared equal authority over their own regions - - in fact, if I recall correctly, they were each referred to locally as pope."

Yes, I believe you are right (I think the head of the Byzantine Rite Catholics is still called "pope," which just means 'father'). However, when a dispute arose, it was Rome's job to settle it. That's why *that* pope became known as *the* pope.

"Because Rome was the largest of the regional Churches, the Bishop of Rome always carried a strong influence, but it was hundreds of years into Church history before several Church leaders began to identify Rome as the single head over the other Churches. "

I disagree that it was just size. I'll see if I can find the *first* primary source that indicates this, but it's too late to do that tonight.

"and as you mentioned, it never really took hold in the East."

I didn't say that...of the 20 or so Rites ("churches") that fall under the umbrella of Catholic, most of them are Eastern Rite (Byzantine being the largest, but not the only). I think 1000 years (give or take) is long enough to consider the idea having "taken hold"

"Also, don't you find it interesting that the very keys of Heaven that Jesus gave to Peter in Matthew 16:19, he also gave to the rest of the apostles in Matthew 18:18?"

I see nothing about keys. Neither in my Catholic Bible nor my protestant-version "Gospel Parallels - Thomas Nelson Publishers" I doubt you intended a literal re-iteration of the keys verse. It does have the loosed/bound verse, but that was not part of the papal justification. That is part of the justification for the Sacrament of Confession (showing that human beings, properly ordained, can have the power to forgive sins in God's name).

"Also, my understanding is that the Catholic intepretation of the rock Jesus referred to as being Peter himself is a fairly recent one. Even some very prominent Catholic Church leaders/teachers said it was in reference to the revelation that Peter made, not to Peter himself that Jesus was referring."

You'll have to say who. I don't think so. I'm pretty sure I have some Catechisms going back about 150 years (I collect antique books) at home, so I'll check this out, but it will be awhile before I can get to them.

"I do understand the practical necessity of having a centralized Church government and why it probably had to evolve that way."

I commend you on this. This is more than most would be willing to go. It does seem a rather common sense idea, unfortunately so many people are more interested in confronting the Church at every turn that they even deny the "common sense stuff."

"the Church should be run on the model Jesus built, with a group of apostolic leaders (e.g. 12) coming into agreement before the Lord in the matters of faith and conduct."

You basically have that. Consider them the Cardinals (or, on a more grassroots level, bishops). The pope doesn't pen every single word that comes out of the Vatican. Cardinals do most of it. The pope is there to resolve disputes and questions of faith/belief/teachings when they arise. This isn't much different (except in size) from what was done originally.

Question: are you aware that all seven Sacraments go back farther than we have records (and we have records from middle-late 1st century)? If so, how is it okay for modern movements to stop them? The same goes for the deuterocanonical books. I'm curious to hear your views on these.

..................................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 15, 2001.


Anthony,

While I appreciate your reply to me on the matter of Peter as head of Christ's Church, I must reiterate my stance on the lack of such evidence in the Epistles. I still hold that common sense dictates that such an important matter would have been mentioned at least once in said Epistles.

I will not become involved beyond this point as I really haven't the time nor inclination to do so.

Thanks once again for your reply.

-- Ben Allen (tomicjek@infosol.com), February 15, 2001.


This second step was the doctrine of Balaam, (described in Revelation 2:14) wherein Balaam taught Balac to stumble the children of Israel by a 'united meeting.' There the guests would do two more things contrary to the Word of God. You will recall that Balac needed help to keep his kingdom. He called on the most dominant spiritual figure of his day, Balaam. Balaam gave the advice that trapped and destroyed Israel. It was, first of all, to suggest that they all get together and talk things over, and eat together and get things ironed out. After all, understanding each other goes a long way. Once you accomplish that you can go from there.

The next step would be worshipping together, and of course, a little pressure from the host usually makes the guests go a lot further than they intended. Now that didn't only happen back there to God's church of the Old Testament but it happened to the church of the New Testament, for there was an emperor, who like Balac needed help to secure his kingdom. So Constantine invited the nominal Christian, First Christian Church of Rome, to help him get the Christians behind him, as they were a very large body. The outcome was the Nicene Council of 325.

Notice above all, that it is the deliberate maneuver of a corrupt clergy to bind the people to them, by leading the people deliberately into the sin of unbelief. The Nicolaitane doctrine was the corruption of the clergy as they sought political power amongst themselves, while Balaamism is the subjection of the people to their system of creed and worship in order to hold them. Now watch this carefully. What was it that bound the people to the nominal church and thereby destroyed them? It was the creeds and dogmas formed into church tenets. It was the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. They were not given the true food, the Word. They were given the food that came from idol worship, Babylonian paganism wrapped up in Christian terminology. And that very same spirit and doctrine is right amongst all Protestants and it is called DENOMINATION.

Nicolaitanism is organization, humanizing the leadership of the church, and thereby deposing the Spirit. Balaamism is denominationalism which takes the church manual instead of the Bible. And right to this hour, many of God's people are caught in the snare of denominationalism and God is crying to them, "Come out of her My people, lest ye be partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not her plagues."

There the Christians, both true and nominal, came together at the invitation of Constantine. The true Christians had no business even going up to the meeting. In spite of all Constantine could do to unite them all, the real believers knew they were out of place and left. But to those who remained, Constantine gave of the state's treasury along with political and physical force. The people were introduced to idol worship and spiritism, for statues with names of saints were placed in the buildings and the people were taught to commune with the dead, or pray to saints which is nothing more nor less than spiritism. For the food that man truly needs, even the Word of God, they were given creeds, and dogmas and rituals which were also enforced by the state, and above all they were given three gods with the triple compound name of the One True God, and water baptism in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ gave way to the pagan baptism of three titles.



-- William (prophet@email.com), February 15, 2001.


Dear WIlliam:

Pagan baptism of three titles? I assume you mean the baptism in the name of the Father, the SOn, and the Holy Spirit. Well, that's what Jesus told us to do! THose are his exact words to his disciples!

IN the Gospel of Matthew, before His ascension into Heaven, Jesus says:

"All power in heaven and earth has been given to me, Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, *baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,* teaching them to observe all that I have commanded of you."

Following a direct order from Jesus Christ is not paganism, not blasphemous, not foolish. The baptism of titles was created by Jesus, the Redeemer of the world.

-Hannah

Mary, QUeen of Saints, pray for us. St. James, pray for us.

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), February 15, 2001.


Thank you for your reply Hannah, but You see, you misunderstand it, friend. It's one God in three dispensations. The dispensation of the Fatherhood, Sonship, and Holy Spirit, it's the same God. And when He said, "Go baptize them in the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit," it was Jesus Christ. And that's why we baptize in Jesus' Name.

Now, look, let's get the baptisms here. The first time baptism was ever mentioned in the New Testament was John the Baptist. Is that right? (I'll place this up here.) You see, you have to get your Godhead straightened out before you can get baptism straightened out. That's John the Baptist, first baptism.

Second time baptism was spoke of was Acts 2:38, where they were baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ there at the new church. The second place was Samaritans, Acts 7:48 and 49. And Acts 10:49 was where he baptized them at the house of Cornelius. And the next time baptism was spoke of, and calling any names or titles, was over in Acts 19:5.

Now, when they were baptized at the day of Pentecost, they were baptized (Acts 2:38) in the Name of Jesus Christ. Is that right? --- Write it down, look it up.--- The next, Philip went down, two days later, and begin to preach to the Samaritans, and preached to them, and heal the sick, and had a great meeting down there, and baptized them in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Peter went down and laid hands on them; they received the Holy Ghost.

Peter went up on the housetop a few days later, was hungry; he saw a vision. God sent him over to the house of Cornelius. And while Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on them, and they begin speaking in tongues and carrying on like they did at the first place. Peter said, "They haven't even been baptized yet." So he commanded them, every one, to be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ.

I've took my sources from Scripture only..



-- William (believer@hotmail.com), February 15, 2001.


Hannah,

You left out an important part for "William". Matthew 28:

baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

William, you see the followers of Jesus (who Catholics can trace themselves back to) were told to obey everything EXACTLY, which is what they did. The ones who did NOT believe and do what Jesus commanded EXACTLY left the church, even during Jesus' lifetime. Your believing you can pick and choose what you want is NOT what Jesus commanded, and IMHO, is likely a deception of the devil to lead the faithful astray.

Also William, after saying we shouldn't do what Jesus commanded us to, you say,

It's one God in three dispensations. The dispensation of the Fatherhood, Sonship, and Holy Spirit, it's the same God.

That's right! That's the definition of the Trinity, One God, three distinct parts. But your later post seems to say that all you feel important is to recognize Jesus. When you say,

And while Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on them,

Do you believe that at that time Jesus literally FELL on them? If you don't (and I hope you don't), then you ARE recognizing the different aspects of God as being legitimate, distinct entities, and therefore should have NO reason not to do what Jesus commanded you to.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 15, 2001.


William has now changed his name from Prophet to ''believer''; and still has no clue. He is calling the Three Persons in One God, dispensations. He is making out there's another ''title'' and some other hokum about the Baptism of the Apostles. He utterly disregards the Word of Jesus Christ, ''. . . Baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.'' (Matt, 29: 19) as if Jesus weren't even speaking of Baptism, but of a strange version of it!

This is the quicksand phony interpretations of scripture by a false prophet will submerge you in, Hannah! The poor man is deluded with his dream of being a prophet. In one breath he'll tell you Christ never meant to found a Church, in complete contrast to what Jesus clearly states, ''On this Rock I will build my Church.'' (Matt, 16: 18)

In the next breath, Jesus is a ''dispensation''. He wouldn't know what dispensation means in ten years of reading dictionaries. But he pretends to know there's no Purgatory. Did he ever read 2Machabees? How could he? Protestant bibles discarded it; and William wouldn't touch a true Catholic bible. It might blow up in his face! Will wants us to ''Get your Godhead straightened out, before you try to figure out Baptism.'' I only wish he'd get his OWN head straightened out. He has it stuck clear up into where the sun never shines! Ha!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 15, 2001.


The Trinity is so awesome and incomprehensible, I'm not surprised William is having trouble. We can't figure it out. The only reason we even have the CHurch's explanation is because the HOly Spirit inspired it. NO human thought process could come with something so completely impossible to understand. We have to take it on faith. It's easy to say, since we know of a Father, SOn, and Spirit, and that there is one God, that the Three Persons are just different offices. To human minds, that would make the most sense. When God acts as the Father, He's the Father; as the Redeemer, He's the SOn; as the Spirit, He's the Spirit. Makes sense, right? But God is BIGGER than that. He's more complex than that. All analogies fall apart. We can come close to seeing, but never quite make it. Three Persons, unique and individual, yet One. Three in One. We just can't dumb down the Trinity. God can't be simplified to fit our limited minds. But doesn't that make sense? Should the creations of God really be able to "get" him?

I think this story was posted on this site before, but I'll tell it again because I like it so much. St. Augustine was having a hard time understanding the Trinity (no shock!) He was on a beach when he saw a little boy with a bucket. The boy was filling his bucket with water, and dumping it on the land. Augustine watched the boy for some time, and finally asked him what he was doing. The boy answered that he was emptying the sea. Augustine said that was foolish; he could not possibly empty the sea. The boy said that was being no more foolish than Augustine was when he tried to comprehend the Trinity. He then disappeared.

Here's a section of Job that also applies:

I know that you can do all things, And that no purpose of yours can be hindered. I have dealt with great things that I do not understand; things to wonderful for me, which I cannot know. I had heard of you by word of mouth, but now my eye has seen you. Therefore I disown what I have said, And repent in dust and ashes.

God is too great for us to understand. THe Trinity is a mystery, even to the Catholics who defined the dogma. They didn't make it up. How could they? They were practical people, as are we all. The incomprehensible does not stem from the comprehensible.

Here on earth, we want desparately to understand our God. We don't want to say "Hey, this is too much for me." But the Trinity are "too wonderful for me." We make analogies to teach and to understand as much as we can. But all analogies fail in the face of the all powerful Truth.

One day, we will know God, not "as in a mirror" but "face to face." And then will we disown the things we said, the ways we tried to cram God into the tiny spaces of our minds, and we will repent and rejoice in the Presence of the Three in One.

The CHurch's explanation is too big to understand. But it's the only one big enough to fit the Eternal God.

-Hannah

Pray for us, St. James. Mother Mary, pray for us. St. Claude de la COlombiere, whose day this is, pray for us.

p.s.

Here's a prayer from St. Claude: Lord, I am in this world to show Your mercy to others. Other people will glorify You by making visible the power of Your grace by their fidelity and constancy to YOu. For my part I will glorify You by making known how good You are to sinners, that Your mercy is boundless and that no sinner no matter how great his offences should have reason to despair of pardon. If I have grievously offended You, My Redeemer, let me not offend YOu even more by thinking that You are not kind enough to pardon Me. Amen

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), February 15, 2001.


Superb post, Hannah!
I have always thought that the very best posts left here are those of Chris Butler. [You should go back to the 1999 and early 2000 threads to read them, since he cannot come here often now.] And here is my compliment to you, Hannah ... I thought I was reading a Butler post as I read yours.
(By the way, I recommend Chris's private Sacred Heart pages to you too.)

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 16, 2001.


Yes, John
Hannah can be very mystical, I also noticed it. A great post, Dear Hannah, all true.

I would like to recommend to you, Hannah, some lovely reading in the mystical life. A life I think you may be well along the way onto. See if you can find the little book about Dame Juliana of Norwich. I don't recall the title. Just search for Juliana of Norwich. It's about the meditations of a great English mystic, blessed by Our Lord in a wondrous way. When you've read this you'll know why I told you you're a mystic soul. A soul touched by grace. May Jesus send to you a Mystical Blessing, Hannah. Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 16, 2001.


Thanks, John and Eugene, for your prayers and suggested reading. I went to Chris' website and read his first essay-- it's awesome, Chris! I definitely need more grace in my life. Don't get the idea that I'm some holy person, OK? I know better, and so does God. But thanks for liking my post.

-Hannah

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), February 17, 2001.


I am thinking of becoming catholic because its religion makes more sence to me than any. I recently visited one of the Catholic churches and I have to say it was beautiful, but i have a question. I need to know if they have rules in dress codes, like some can only wear dresses? I have looked up as much as I can on the Catholic religion and that is my only remaining question. Thanks for all your time!

Kelly

-- Kelly Hill (babygurl_kh@yahoo.com), March 16, 2002.


Hi John,

You made a statement, I think it was to Renee, that there is more of the Bible quoted in each Catholic Mass than in any Protestant service. That statement is not a fact. In every service the Pastor of my Congregation announces what scripture he will be quoting from so that we may follow along with our Bibles. And, all throughout his sermon he quotes from the Bible.

Which strikes a question for me, why would you make such a statement, and what would make you think such is true?

Also, I am not an anti-catholic basher, so please do not take this as one. You will see that I have posted other questions with the utmost respect. And I will continue to respect those and their beliefs in this forum as I hope you will in turn respect mine.

Thank You,

-- Kathy (Curious@aol.com), March 16, 2002.


Jmj

Hi, Kelly Hill.
Thanks for the beautiful news that you are on the verge of joining the Catholic Church. God has given you great gift of faith and discernment. We Catholics want to help you in any way we can.

You asked: " I need to know if they have rules in dress codes, like some can only wear dresses?"

Could you please be more specific? What is it that you saw? Are you speaking about women or men? Are you perhaps wondering about the floor-length robes that some men were wearing, such as the priest, the altar servers (boys or girls), someone who helped with the readings or distributing Holy Communion? If so, they are wearing traditional clothing similar to what was worn in the early centuries of the Church. (Remember that Jesus founded Catholicism within the context of the Roman Empire.)

But as a laywoman attending Mass, you will not be expected to wear anything special, just clothing that is clean and modest (not skimpy/distracting).

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 17, 2002.


Jmj

Hi, Kathy. I do respect your question as a very reasonable one -- and it's one that I thought I would get asked much more often than I do.

I believe you when you say that quotations from the Bible are a key feature in your own worship services. But I think that you made another statement prematurely. You quoted me (correctly) as having told Renee that "there is more of the Bible quoted in each Catholic Mass than in any Protestant service." But then you said, "That statement is not a fact."
I believe that you would change your mind, Kathy, and admit that what I said "is a ... fact," after you'd have a chance to read through all the various parts of a typical Sunday Mass. Are you willing to do that with me, to give me a chance to prove it to you?

For right now, I'll just tell you about the major scriptural section of the Mass, and we can go into the rest in another message, if you wish.
The Mass begins with the first of two long, major sections. It is known as the "Liturgy of the Word," which tells you right away that it is centered on the written word of God. After several minutes of opening prayers and singing of hymns, etc., we reach the readings, the first of which are usually read by laypersons. The first reading is usually from the Old Testament (from any one of many of the books). Then all or part of one of the Psalms is read in "responsorial" form, with the congregation saying or singing a repeated antiphon (little verse). Next comes the second reading, usually from a New Testament book other than the gospels. After a short chanted acclamation, the priest or deacon proclaims the gospel. Next, one of those men preaches a "homily" (a sermon that usually explains the readings, sometimes applying them to our daily lives). So you can see that there are three prose readings, as well as a psalm -- and also the homily. Please click here to see today's readings [March 17, 2002]. You will see that the gospel passage is a particularly beautiful and moving one.

Kathy, it is not necessary for Catholics to bring their Bibles from home on Sundays. Instead, in the pews of very many Catholic churches, we have hard-copy or soft-copy books/booklets that contain the readings for all the Sundays of the year or of the current liturgical season. These book(lets) often also contain hymns, prayers, etc..

If you would like me to show you how Scripture is woven into the various parts of the Mass that precede and follow the big readings that I have already mentioned to you, please let me know. But actually, I hope that you are already convinced that I was right to tell Renee that "there is more of the Bible quoted in each Catholic Mass than in any Protestant service."

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 17, 2002.


Kathy

I in my early RCIA training and afterwards used to read the book "THE WORD AMONG US." It is formatted to the weekly readings we have during each Sunday. It showed us what the readings and then it expained how the readings and the Psalm were related to each other to arrive to the central message that is the Homily (sermon) for the Mass. The book shows you the first reading which comes from the Old Testament, the Psalm, the second reading from the New Testament books, Acts- Revelations, then lastly the Gospel. The goal is to then create the homily from the central message that is common between all of those readings to teach us what GOD's word for the week is.

You yourself can do this simply on the internet by looking up "www.wau.org" or "www.togetherinchrist.org". They both have reading help aids built in on the sites. Give them a try. It may help you to understand how the readings are used in the Mass and Yes you will see the daily readings too. We have daily Mass 6 days a week (Monday-Saturday). The daily readings are readings from the Old Testament, Psalms, and the Gospel. None from the Epistles and Revelations. Give it a try. Blessed be GOD in his Holy Trinity.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), March 17, 2002.


Hi Fred,

In response to the (Renee thread). I am sure I left you with the opinion that we all bring our Bibles to service. Actually, there are Bibles in back of all the pews as well. I like to bring my own so that I can feel free to pencil in a scripture that is particularly appealing to me. One that I would like to look into further when I get home. Miscommunication on my part, sorry for that.

I know that you might find what I am about to say, ironic or with disbelief, but what I tell you is true of my Congregation. I can't speak for other Protestant Churches. But it seems as though your (MASS) and as I call it, our (Service) is remarkably alike. I am speaking only of the "Service" in itself. Without a doubt there are differences, for example; I know that at Mass you recieve Communion or the Eucharist as we call, at every Mass. Whereas we recieve it on the first Sunday of every month, I am not exactly sure why that is. (Something I will have to look into.) I know there are other differences, I don't know how you would refer to them, so for a lack of a better word (rituals). It has been several years since I attened a MASS, other than a wedding or funeral, therefore would never have noticed the similarities between the "Service" and "MASS".

Fred, I hope my "thank yous" aren't getting old. I am greatful for your feedback. I think I will attend a MASS as a guest with a dear friend of mine, she is a devout Catholic, always welcoming me to come.

Bless You Fred,

-- Kathy (Curious@aol.com), March 18, 2002.


Kathy

I know that at Mass you recieve Communion or the Eucharist as we call, at every Mass

We call it the Eucharistic Celebration. It is when the bread and wine (with a drop of water in it) are Blessed by the Holy Spirit at the Command of Christ to become the Body and Blood of Christ. Communion is when the body of Christ, his Church comes forward to recieve the Sacred Boy and Blood of Christ in the form of bread and wine. I hope that helps to clear that one up for you. Blessed be the Mother of GOD, Mary.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), March 18, 2002.


Kathy

For lack of words i don't consider our Mass a ritual or rituals. I consider it as a set of many prayers in one service which is quite similar to the order of the Jewish Service to this day. With time and open mindedness you will see the beauty of the MASS. I actually find a lot of peace in it. My wife is going to be a fully confirmed Catholic this EasterVgil and we are having our Marriage Convalidated the next day before my 82 year old mom and my wifes kids. It is giving me goosebumps now thinking about it. She is thoroughly happy of becoming Catholic after many years of disappointment in looking for a home for her faith in GOD. She has told me of the many trials she faced searching for a Church that made her feel at HOME. I am happy to be part of that too as I have the distinct honor to present her to GOD in his Holy Eucharistic Body.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), March 18, 2002.


Fred,

Thank you for clearing that up for me (Eucharist, Communion).

I wish you and your wife life long happiness together. And what a blessing to have your mom there to witness it all, as well as the children.

May God always be there to watch over you and your family. An early CONGRATULATIONS!!!

-- Kathy (Curious@aol.com), March 18, 2002.


Regarding your writings as indicated below, I read through the New Testament and found that "The Church" as pointed out in the following scriptures (in fact there were 111 verses N.T.) is composed of the believers when they gathered together. Believers of Jesus Christ, are those who are 1. Born again. 2. Spirit filled. 3. Water baptized 4. Believe that their sins were forgiven (not covered) when Jesus, who is the only sacrifice acceptable by God for the forgiveness of sins, was punished for us. I also discovered that nowhere in both the New and Old Testament did I find any scripture to support your statement. Please recall (should you dare to reply:) ) Deut:4:2: Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.Deut:12:32: What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. And while I'm thinking about it, Peter your "first pope" was married : (Mt:8:14: And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. Mk:1:30: But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her. Lk:4:38: And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.) And he also had a son: (1Pt:5:13: The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.) I look forward to hearing from you. Sincerely, Candice T. Mohamed

In responce to your statement -- "the savior, his Son Jesus, came to us 2000 years ago, died, rose, and founded the Catholic Church that survives to this very day (and will last until the end of time)." I submit to you the following scriptures.

Acts:2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts:5:11: And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Acts:8:1: And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts:8:3: As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Acts:11:22: Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.

Acts:14:27: And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Acts:20:28: Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Gal:1:13: For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

Eph:3:10: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Eph:5:27: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1Pt:5:13: The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

So you see, Ed the church is the believers of Jesus Christ.

Again I would like to bring to your attention: 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And now about the saints:

Rom:8:27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Question to you here. Why do you think that God would seacrh the minds of the saints in heaven to make intercession for them when they have already passed from this earth? They have no more needs in heaven. Do you suppose that it is because we, the believers of God here on this earth, are called the saints? And that we, the saints on earth, are equal to the saints who already passed from this earth and are now in heaven? My thought to you substanciated by the Word of God is that we are all saints. Both in the heaven and on the earth! And, that praying to the saints in heaven is just as outrageous as praying to another saint here on the earth. Imagine someone praying to you!! We of ourselves have no power to change anything it is God Almighty who gives to all the saints, the Holy Spirit teach us. 1 Corinthians 2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16: For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

So Ed, WE ARE THE SAINTS!!!. All of us here on earth and all who are in heaven.

Acts:9:13: Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

Acts:9:32: And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

Acts:9:41: And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

Rom:1:7: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor:1:2: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Eph:1:1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Phil:1:1: Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Col:1:2: To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col:1:2: To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.



-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), September 06, 2002.


Hi Kathy,

I feel so sad after reading your posts to Fred, and Fred's posts to you. May his soul rest in peace. We miss you Fred!

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), September 06, 2002.


Hi Mary Lu,

With all the posts left here in the forum, I think Fred's spirit will always be among us.

I do miss him so much. Fred may have been harsh at times, but he was going to protect his religion at all costs.

What I loved most about Fred, was his immense love for Carolyn and his faith. Not everyone finds the kind of love they had. Carolyn could never doubt Fred's love for her because it is all here in black and white, (not that she ever would, I know the love was mutual).

My heart just breaks for Carolyn.....

God bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), September 07, 2002.


Hi, Candace.

Sorry to see that you are a devotee of the indefensible theological principle known as "sola Scripture" (privately interpreted Bible as only source of religious truth). That subject has been debated at this forum many times. You should be able to find threads covering it in the forum's archives ("Older Messages" at the bottom of this page).
I also recommend that you read the following articles, which will show you that "Bible-only" thinking is mistaken:
Link #1
Link #2

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 07, 2002.


Dear John, Mk:7:8: For laying aside the commandment(s) of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), September 07, 2002.

Candice, please read the linked pages carefully.
You will find out that there is a huge difference between "tradition" (small "t") and "Tradition" (big "T").
The second one is NOT what Jesus criticized as "tradition of men."
John
PS: I noticed your many quotations from the Bible, including the latest from the New Testament. Tell me, how can you be sure that the book called "Mark" is divinely inspired? I'm talking about an external, human source of authority -- not your own feelings or the Holy Spirit -- that assures you, infallibly, that Mark ought to be in the Bible. Whose dependable human voice can I hear to assure me? Who assembled the list of 27 books that are in your New Testament?

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 08, 2002.

Candice:
Who told you we lay aside the commandments of God? Sacred Tradition upholds every commandment of God, for every Catholic. You've been learning from false prophets. Listen to the apostles and the Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 08, 2002.

Hey Candace:

II Thessalonians Chapt 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

II Thessalonians Chapt 3: 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which ye received of us.

See, Candace, John is correct. There are good traditions, which uphold and glorify God; and then there are the bad traditions which nullify the word of God. Jesus made it clear, the Pharisees were nullifying the word of God because they emphasized the external, while ignoring the internal -- outer righteousness versus inner holiness! They had no heart, no love for their fellow man.

BTW, Catholics do wash pots, but not to fullfil any ceremonial law; just for cleanliness.

Love,

Gail

P.S. I have a very good tradition of going to church every Sunday, not because I have to, but because I want to. I love Jesus and want to be in His presence. I would imagine that you have that good tradition too!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 08, 2002.


Dear eugene c. chavez and jfgecik@hotmail.com The Word of God is the only truth that matters. Jesus said that I am, the way, I am the truth, and I am the life. There is no other way, no other truth, and no other life. No matter how you try to add to that or to take away from it, it is a fact of, not life, but God Himself. Yet you choose to add and to subtract from the Word of God which is infallable, will never change and will never pass away. I assure you that in the end "sola scripture" as you so conveniently lable it is the only thing will that will remain. All your "other" truths and doctrines will indeed fall. Nothing else will remain. Nothing you say or do will ever change this. I assure you of this. Books, magazines and articles that are substanciated by the Word of God, and are not changed in any way but only explain the Word, are the only other sources of truth that matters. Anything else that teaches outside the Word and the Will of God must be avoided at all costs.

Mt:24:35: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but MY words shall not pass away.

Mk:13:31: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but MY words shall not pass away.

Lk:21:33: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but MY words shall not pass away.

2Pt:3:10: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), September 08, 2002.


To jfgecik@hotmail.com In response to your question- "Tell me, how can you be sure that the book called "Mark" is divinely inspired? I'm talking about an external, human source of authority -- not your own feelings or the Holy Spirit -- that assures you, infallibly, that Mark ought to be in the Bible. Whose dependable human voice can I hear to assure me? Who assembled the list of 27 books that are in your New Testament? "

May God have mercy on your soul. Don't you understand that the Word of God is as today, as it was from the beginning? Don't you know that it will never, ever change? You or anyone else, questioning weather a particular book is divinely inspired and "looking for an external, human source of authority" just does not matter. You and I will die, our words will fade away "human voice and a human source of authority" will also fade away, but the Word of God and the book of Mark will still be there. Always. Forever.

2 Timothy 3: 16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), September 08, 2002.


dEAR Candace:

What John was driving at is that the New Testament that you hold in your hand was assembled and officially canonized by Catholic bishops in the 3rd and 4th centuries. Councils assembled, they debated, they argued, they clamored, but eventually they agreed on what should comprise the New Testament. Yes, they most certainly were inspired by the Holy Spirit. (Oh by the way, your Protestant bible does not contain ALL of the books these councils canonized!)

The scripture you repeatedly quote from Timothy states that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." I don't get your point. Of course all scripture is inspired by God, who says it isn't? In fact it was two Catholic councils that determined that this book of Timothy was inspired!

You didn't answer my post earlier about the two Thessalonian passages concerning tradition. Did you read them?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 08, 2002.


Dear Gail, Regarding the two Thessalonian passages, the traditions that Paul was talking about were those of the law of God, which is contained in the Old Testament. That which had been handed down from Moses to the people. And the traditions of Old Testament, either spoken or written, still does not say to pray to the saints, to pray to Mary, or that the catholic church was founded by Jesus Christ. And as for the books that are missing(?) from "My Protestant Bible" Do these books; found in your bible, do they say to pray to the saints, to Mary or that Jesus Christ founded the catholic church? You catholic must decide for yourselves, as to weather you choose to believe the Word of God or to believe the word of the catholic church. Again I assure that it is the Word of God and not the word of the catholic church that WILL last forever. Oh and by the way, up until about a few months ago, I was a full fledged, baptized as a baby, made holy communion, and was confirmed roman catholic. But I never found the peace, the joy and the love of Jesus Christ as I have today within the catholic religion and its' doctrines. Praying to the saints and to Mary and catholic people trying to convince me to believe anything that was not in the Word of God, just did not cut it for me. I chose to believe and live my life and raise my children according to the Word of God. And only the Word of God. I found Jesus in His Word.

-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), September 08, 2002.

Dear Gail, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." My point is that the book of Mark is in there simply because it was inspired by God and that it was God who decided that it had to be there. And so it is there. Everything that is, is here because God created it. Everything. This was my responce to jfgceikk@hotmail.com Evil on the other hand exists outside of God and was not created by God, but came into being by lucifer and by the sin of man.

-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), September 08, 2002.

Hello, Candice.

I can see that it is going to take you some time to get over this initial "Fundy fervor," which is blinding you to simple matters of logic and history that are clear and convincing (or at least worthy of consideration) to the average person. In your current condition, you are pretty much unapproachable. We could talk your ear off and prove all kinds of things to you, but they would go straight over your head (or in one ear and out the other).

I would suggest that you take a break from this Catholic forum, because you are not communicating here in the spirit of, and according to the rules of, the forum. You are only attacking, and that is not why the forum exists.

Please come back after you have had a chance privately to learn what the Catholic Church really teaches, about its history, about how we come to have the Bible, etc.. You need to find out how terribly ignorant of the facts you were when you were a Catholic. You need to learn that, if you had known the facts, you never would have left! I recommend that you go to "www.catholic.com/library.asp" and read lots of stuff there. Then come back here for a visit, because you'll probably have some questions.

God bless you.
John
PS: Just wanted to let you know that we agree with your statement that "The Word of God is the only truth that matters." However, His Word is NOT just the written Word that we read in the Bible, but also a spoken Word. (It's like when you turn both the hot and cold water taps, but you get just one stream of water from the spigot.) Also, whether we hear the written or the spoken Word of God, we need an authoritative teacher to explain its meaning -- in order to avoid chaos. For example, you explained how you understood the meaning of Gail's verse from 2 Thessalonians (i.e., that they point back to the Old Testament). We understand those verses totally differently (i.e., that they refer to the spoken Gospel truths passed along by St. Paul on his journeys). Are you right, or are we right? We need someone incapable of error to judge which is the right understanding/interpretation. If you say that you are right and we are wrong, then you are maiing yourself into your own private pope and trying to teach us! That is not what God has in mind, is it? You need to know that "sola scriptura" (a term invented by Protestants, not me) and unguided private interpretation have led to more than 30,000 separate Protestant denominations around the world -- all created since the year 1500. Surely, you don't want any part of that, do you? I didn't think so.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 08, 2002.


Dear Candace:

I am afraid that you have many blind spots, as John noted, so my posting here was and is a great waste of time.

However, concerning the "traditions" you claim are references to the Old Testament. I must admit that's a new one! I've never heard that from even the most renown Protestant apologetics. Paul, the great apostle to the gentiles, was admonishing his gentile converts to adhere to jewish customs? That is PREPOSTEROUS!

As to making requests of our brothers and sisters in heaven. THERE WERE NO BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN HEAVEN AT THE TIME THE APOSTLES WROTE THE N.T.? They did not even KNOW they were writing the N.T. They thought the Lord was coming back in THEIR LIFETIMES! In Revelations when the elders are handing vials full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints, to the Lord, they were acting in an intercessory role! In Hebrews Chapt 11, it says we "come to the spirits of dead men made perfect." What do those spriptures mean, Candace?

You very definitely have that spirit of rebellion that is so pervasive in some Protestant groups. I'm sure your church is all centered around the Pastor and how great he is, his great sermons, his great discernment. The Catholic mass is centered around Christ and how great He is, the Lamb's supper, the celebration of the Saints!

You do not have your facts straight, and obviously you do not want to be confused by the truth. Your Protestant apologetics are sorely lacking, and feeble to say the least. You need to go back to your little Protestant bible study, and let your fundamentalist teachers pump some more nonsense into your head. But let me make a prediction, that is obviously already coming true -- You will have no peace in Protestantism, only turmoil, as you go from one erroneous teaching to the other, each one contraditing the other -- I know, I was there for 25 years!

May the Lord help you find the Truth,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 09, 2002.


Bravo, Gail!
Jesus Christ makes His grace known to Candice as you speak. If she's truly devout and willing to love Him above all things, she'll hear you and want more. That's one reason I like to say often, to these souls; ''You've come to the right place.''

Welcome and stay a while, Candice. Christ Our Lord will surely start you on the right path in His Holy Church. You only have to cast off your vanity and you'll see the truth once more. Peace!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 09, 2002.


Dear "jfgecik@hotmail.com"

I choose to believe that the Word of God is the only truth I need. The Word of God says "Deut:30:19: I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

All through the bible we are always given two choices. Life and death, God and satan, Truth and lies, Love and hate, The road that leads to life or the road that leads to death. Heaven and hell. The only thing that is different from this is the two choice thing,(for want of a better word) is the Triune God. The Word of God is The Word of GOD. It is HIS will for us. The commands, are HIS commands. The rules and the laws are HIS. What you or I think, or anyone else thinks for that matter does not matter to God. HIS rules and HIS laws still stands. It doesn't even matter who is right or who is wrong. It doesn't matter who is catholic or protestant. Jew or Gentile. The Bible is the way it is today, because God wanted it so. Had He wanted us to seek out "truth" anywhere else, He would have said so. In His Word. He did not.

Dear Gail,

It doesn't matter who wrote the bible. The truth and the fact remains that it is the inspired Word of God. It is the way it is today, because God wanted it that way. And everything He wanted in there is in there. Anything He didn't want in there, is not in there.

Dear John,

I wasn't able to locate on any of the links of the forum, the rules. Perhaps you can point me in the right direction. Please don't take offence because of what I believe, it is not my intention to make you feel as though you are being attacked. I spent almost thirty-one years of my life as a catholic, and all I am saying is that being a catholic, didn't calm the storms of my life. It was when I picked up my bible, and really started to read it, seeking truth and understanding, cover to cover, I found peace.

I also found out that many of the catholic traditions that I once held dear and would have given my life for was not there. Jesus died for the truth. I would have died for my religion, but that would have been in vain. Today I would die for the truth. The Word of God. Just as my Lord and Savior did. How we came to have the Bible is not important either. That we have it is what is important.

Also John, Heb 8:10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. The Holy Spirit is our authorative teacher it is He who gives us the explanations of the things we don't understand, " in order to avoid chaos." As my pastor teaches. This is the Word of God. We must encourage each other to accept and to believe this, instead of making novenas to every saint, praying decades and decades of the rosary and all the other "truths" that you believe outside of the Word of God.

This is God's way. The someone you need, who is incapable of error is the Holy Spirit. He will give you understanding/interpretation of what is really right and truth. I am not trying to teach you anything. I am simply stating what The Word of God says. Weather you take it or leave it is up to you. Acts:2:4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts:2:17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts:2:18: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Dear Gail,

Your statement. "I've never heard that from even the most renown Protestant apologetics. Paul, the great apostle to the gentiles, was admonishing his gentile converts to adhere to jewish customs? That is PREPOSTEROUS! "

You misunderstand me. I meant, the traditions of the ten commandments and some others that, even to this day we, both catholic and protestant, keep and follow. I have not yet read the entire Old Testament yet, so I cannot afford to debate all traditions with you as yet that are still being followed. Traditions found in the Word of God. In a few months I would have though, then I'll be able to. However I have read all of the New Testament, and I am in the process of doing so yet again.

As to your statement"THERE WERE NO BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN HEAVEN AT THE TIME THE APOSTLES WROTE THE N.T.? They did not even KNOW they were writing the N.T." when Jesus died we all know that He descended into (hell) and set the captives free, those who had been kept in out of heaven previous to His assent into heaven. Mt:27:52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.

Every generation of believers of Jesus Christ all believed that Jesus was going to return in their generation. Today we too believe that He shall return in our generation but, Mt:25:13: Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. So the hour or day that Jesus comes is not important, but that we are ready when He comes is the important thing. "To the spirits of dead men made perfect" means that before we are born again, our spirits were dead, or asleep or whatever you want to call it. Jn:3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jn:3:7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pt:1:23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

And as for your accusation that I "having the spirit of rebellion" Jude:1:9: Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Mt:7:1: Judge not, that ye be not judged, Gail.

And as for me being centered around my pastor, his motto is "Greater is He that is in me,than he that is in the world." & "Not I, but Christ in me."

And in responce to your"You very definitely have that spirit of rebellion that is so pervasive in some Protestant groups. I'm sure your church is all centered around the Pastor and how great he is, his great sermons, his great discernment. The Catholic mass is centered around Christ and how great He is, the Lamb's supper, the celebration of the Saints! You do not have your facts straight, and obviously you do not want to be confused by the truth. Your Protestant apologetics are sorely lacking, and feeble to say the least. You need to go back to your little Protestant bible study, and let your fundamentalist teachers pump some more nonsense into your head. But let me make a prediction, that is obviously already coming true -- You will have no peace in Protestantism, only turmoil, as you go from one erroneous teaching to the other, each one contraditing the other -- I know, I was there for 25 years! "

Gal:5:22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

1Thes:2:7: But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:

2Tm:2:24: And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

Jms:3:17: But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. So I forgive you.

I am not here to fight with you Gail, or anyone else for that matter. Like everyone who is a part of this open forum, I am telling what I have learnt, based solely on the Word of God to you. Now is that too much to ask?

P.S. Sep. 11th. 2001, when I was running through the streets of Manhattan, with everyone else, I didn't hear anyone shouting "Oh, Mary" or "Oh Saint Joseph" we were all shouting "O God", "O Jesus", "Lord save us!!!" There is one Savior, One Redeemer and He is Jesus Christ. And on 9/11 we all knew it.

Almost nine years ago, I was stung by a scorpion in the neck. I did not have any money to go to the doctor, I did not even have a phone to call 911. I felt as if my head was on fire, my eyes were popping out of my head, and my ears felt as though they were going to blow off the side of my head and my neck began to swell. I didn't have a car either to drive myself to the hospital. It was Jesus I called on. And as I cried out to Him, believing Him to save me, He did.

Four times in my life, (that I know of, who is to say how many other times death came my way)death has visited me. Jesus, the love of my life, my Savior, my Redeemer said to death, "This one is Mine." When I hit my own personal "Ground Zero" it was Jesus who was there. It was Jesus Who saved me. It was Jesus who reached down into the horror and darkness of the pit, and gently and lovingly pulled me out. May God bless you all. P.S.S. My mother, a devout catholic, agrees with you all. She sends her love to you.



-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), September 09, 2002.


Candice,

You wrote:

"I spent almost thirty-one years of my life as a catholic, and all I am saying is that being a catholic, didn't calm the storms of my life. It was when I picked up my bible, and really started to read it, seeking truth and understanding, cover to cover, I found peace."

It seems to me that you are trying to find physical peace, not true spiritual peace. The fact that you are called a Catholic doesn't guarentee you physical peace (really it doesn't guarentee you spiritual peace either). Read the lives of the Saints! In all truth, their lives were anything but peacefull. Why? Because if you were the devil, who would you choose to herass: Someone who is already pretty much on your side, or a devout Catholic who is fighting against you? I would choose the latter. Look at Padre Pio: He bore the wounds of Christ for 50 years! Talk about herassment. Being a Catholic does, however, guarentee you the grace to humbly endure trials (like Christ) so that your life may be sanctified and purified for your gloriouse entrance into heaven.

Let me ask you a few questions: If reading the Bible gives you peace, then why not read the Bible and act out its revelations (namely - act Catholic)? If reading the Bible is what gives you peace, and you weren't reading the Bible when you were a Catholic, then what's wrong with being a Catholic and reading the Bible. Unless you do both: Learn the faith (through the Bible) and act the faith (through the Catholic Church) you are still going to be missing something?

What happens when your storms aren't calmed anymore by reading the Bible, are you going to try something else? Is peace what motivates you, or is true sanctifying grace (which may or may not be peaceful)?

These are just a few thought provoking questions that you don't have to answer, but you may want to ponder.

I wish you Gods blessings in your journey - which hopefully will lead you home.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), September 09, 2002.


Let me assure you, Jake that the storms that have been calmed in my life are very definitely not only physical but spiritual as well. The circumstances that surrounded my life were not very good at all. People who know me personally always say that they are amazed that I haven't let my circumstances destroy my life. I have Jesus alone to thank for the fact that I'm still alive.

Yet it is because of Jesus and the apostles and their constant and insistent repeating that those who choose to serve Christ will suffer, and in my case Christ choose me. Because of circumstances in my life as a child,- (no I was not sexually abused) but seeing my mother running to Mary, bringing the statue into the house, calling us to repeat thousands of Hail Mary(s), pray this novena, pray to this saint. Read the lives of the saints. Go to mass, Ask Fr. John and Fr. Michael and Fr. and Fr. and Fr. to pray for us. And nothing ever worked to change our situation. - all of this caused me to hate God with every fiber of my being. I loathed the Almighty. And yet in His loving kindness, and His great and eternal mercy He had compassion on me. That He loved me when I hated Him so, and that He sent His very Precious Son to die for me, when He knew how much I hated Him. And yet He still did it. For me. Now I am beginning to rejoice in my suffering, (I'm not that good at it as yet.) because I know and I look forward joyously to the glory that is to come. Mt:16:21: From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Acts:5:41: And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. Acts:9:16: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 1Tm:4:10: For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. Rom:8:17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom:8:18: For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

No Jake my life is not all good, and this, by my own mistakes and sins. (and no, I was not a hooker, I never did drugs, and I am not an alcoholic,) but now I have true inner peace. A calmness. A stillness. Joy that surpasses all understanding. Because now I know, after seeking God in His Word, I found true spiritual peace and true spiritual joy. Now the joy of My Lord is indeed my strength. This did not come by repetitious Hail Mary(s) and novenas, and following and trying to live my life like Padre Peo or St. Theresa and certainly not by being catholic. We are not called to act catholic, but in all things we are called to act like Jesus, to become one with Him. (Not one with the saints, not one with Mary, and certainly we are not called to be roman catholic.) To be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect

And as for grace, it is the one thing I seek and pray for fervently. (As much as I pray for understanding) 2Cor:9:8: And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work. Acts:11:23: Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.

And I did begin reading the bible when I was catholic, and it was in reading the bible, and meditating The Word, that I found spiritual peace, I found Jesus. And it was in reading the bible and not allowing what I had been taught as a catholic to influence me, I discovered that there was not anything in there about purgatory, or praying to the saints (because no matter how alive they are in Christ they are still dead people. Their bodies are still on the earth somewhere!) Jesus never said to pray to His mother. But He did always say to pray to Him and to the Father and to the Holy Spirit.

-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), September 09, 2002.


Poor Candice:
All you know is the vanity of a personal attachment to the Lord.

It's certainly better than nothing, Dear Girl. You ignore the way Our Lord was asking you for faith, giving to Him what you prefer. Let's say the LEPER told Jesus, ''YOU go to the priests, Master. I won't go. But you should still cleanse me of leprosy. That's my reasoning; You will see it my way.''

Yes. A leper tells Jesus Christ what to do. After all, the leper feels entitled to say what's proper. He, JESUS, only founded the Church for which Candice has no use. It's as if Candice sees Jesus as the Leper, she is who cleanses Him, not the other way around.

But she believes in HIM. That's all she needs to do; why should Jesus expect any more??? She's done enough!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 10, 2002.


Good Morning Candace:

With all due respect, the word "tradition" means "Orally handing down stories or beliefs or actions." Where in scripture is there even a suggestion that the word "tradition" in these two passages refer to something in the O.T.? There is none, and your theory is extra- biblical with no history to back it up. The weight of the historical record PROVES beyond a shadow of the doubt what those traditions were, by folks like Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement, St. Jerome, St. Augustine. Ignatius was a FIRST generation Christian and you can read all of his writings yourself. He was a disciple of the beloved John.

Concerning "prayer to the Saints," While it's true the graves were opened, there were only a few of the N.T. saints who were martyred during the writing of the N.T. Again, history shows that the Saints did speak to those who were with the Lord, going all the way back to 1st century Christianity.

Now, I'll admit that the passages are scant that support this tradition, however, they are mysterious passages that Protestantism cannot answer. Again, the weight of history is overwhelming!

Hebrews, Chap 12, vs. 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," The word "compassed about" means literally to "encircle."

Hebrews 12: 22-23 But ye are come into mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an immumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God Judge of all, and the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT." You see when we approach heaven, EVERYONE IS THERE. It's not just God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

REVELATIONS 8:2 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden cener; and there wsa given unto him muc incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden alter which was before the throne. (The angel acting in an intercessory role)

REVELATIONS 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints. (Again the elders are clearly acting in an intercessory role).

You have taken that passage, "the spirits of just (or dead in some translations) men" out of context. Paul in this passage is referring to a "heavenly scene," the NEW JERUSALEM.

Your tone in some of your posts are combative, Candace. You seem to be implying that because you found Jesus outside the Catholic church, that your experience is proof positive that no one else can KNOW Jesus and still be in the Church. I'm glad for you, truly I am. Unfortunately, there are MANY raised in all kinds of churches, from Baptist to Methodist, to non-denominational, who don't find Christ in the churches of their parents. That is no litmus test for the truth.

You said the Bible, as it is in your Protestant Bible, is the way the Lord wants it. How do you know the Catholic Bible isn't the way the Lord wants it? It was Catholics that canonized (through the work of the Holy Spirit) the first assemblage of books, and the Reformers who redid their work! I, personally, would have been loathe to do such a thing. Martin Luther took a very great risk in undoing the canonical scriptures, because he thought he knew better. He also wanted to take out Revelations, 2nd Peter, James and Hebrews because they did not fit his theological construct.

You are putting a great deal of faith in the Reformers whose actions have been the foundation of 30,000 splits within Protestantism. Is that the unity that Jesus was talking about, "that they all be one"? Again, history shows, through apostolic succession, that the Catholic Church's roots are in the very foundation of the apostles, and instituted by Christ himself. Protestantism CANNOT claim that. Jesus did not say, "Okay, you guys wait around for about 400 years until I tell you what books go in the N.T., then you all take your copy and go start your own church, until then just wing it?"

Respectfully,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 10, 2002.


Hi Candace:

I just noticed you said, "But He did always say to pray to Him and to the Father and to the Holy Spirit." I have to challenge you to find one scripture anywhere in the Bible where Jesus, or God, says to pray to the Holy Spirit?

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 10, 2002.


Dear Gail, Eugen and everyone here at the forum,

I enjoyed the time I spent with you. Our debates were very interesting and we could go for the rest of our lives, and still not see eye to eye.

The truth is, I know that we all do love Jesus and I know that our destiny is the Kingdom of God. We may never meet while we are still here on earth, but I know that one day dear brother and sister in Christ, we will meet in heaven.

As I said before, I really enjoyed the debate, but while I was debating with you, I was neglecting the thing I enjoy doing most in this world. Spending time with my Lord in His Word. I was also neglecting the thing I enjoy least in this world. My housework. So I won't be back.(or at least, until I have compleated the Old Testament. Then our debates would really be something! :))

I look forward to meeting with you in our Father's kingdom. Or should Jesus return before we pass from this earth, I look forward to meeting with you on the great and wonderful day of His return. But until then: May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you, and yours. Shalom Alechem. - Peace be to you. Love, Your sister in Christ, Candice T. Mohamed

-- Candice T. Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), September 10, 2002.


Candice,

You wrote:

"...but in all things we are called to act like Jesus."

Exactly! And how did Jesus act, or should I say, teach us to act? CATHOLIC! You've read the Bible. John and the Acts are the only two books you need to show you that Jesus WAS Catholic - and he founded the CATHOLIC Church. In John Ch. 6 "unless you eat my Body and drink my Blood you have NO life in you." If you love Jesus, why don't you do this? At the end of John, when Jesus is on the cross, He gives His mother to us (She is the Woman Clothed with the Sun)! In the Acts, the faithful use Pauls face clothe to heal the sick (Relics and Blessed Objects). Where is you faith in Jesus, that his people (the Saints) might intercede and work for you and with you.

Yes, you only need Jesus! But Jesus wouldn't have it that way. God IS Family (Father, Sonship, and the bonding Love of a Family, the Holy Spirit). God wants you to have a Family with His mother, Mary, His faithful sons and daughters, the Saints. God wants to Father you in a Family; not a single parent home! I hope that through your great love for Jesus, you come to see this and know it well.

In Love and In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), September 10, 2002.


Dear Jake, Jesus was not catholic, nor will He ever be! He was Jewish and He was a Rabbi. He was a Jewish Rabbi, He wore the yarmulkahs, had two long curls on the side of His face and as you see the Jewish men and Rabbis today, so was Jesus. So He remains forever! Jn:1:38: Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, where dwellest thou? Jn:1:49: Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. Jn:3:2: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

That superior, pompous attitude that you have that catholics come first with God and that your position in heaven is first and highest, you should keep in mind that it was to the Jew first that He came. Rom:1:16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. You (and I)--are a Gentile and your position on earth and in heaven before God is second place to the Jew. Rom:2:9: Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; Rom:2:10: But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: You would do well to remember that!!! Rev. 7:4: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5: Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6: Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7: Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8: Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. 9: AFTER THIS I BEHELD, AND, LO, A GREAT MULTITUDE, WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, OF ALL NATIONS, AND KINDREDS, AND PEOPLE, AND TONGUES, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, AND BEFORE THE LAMB, CLOTHED WITH WHITE ROBES, AND PALMS IN THEIR HANDS And one other thing, with God there are only two types of people- The Jew and the Gentile. No mention of Catholics, Protestants, Pentecosts, Baptists etc. anywhere in His Word. I know I am a Gentile, what are you?

-- Candice T. Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), February 03, 2003.


Of course Jesus was not CATHOLIC! Jesus was and is ALMIGHTY GOD! Jesus however founded ONE Holy Catholic Church for all mankind, and His followers, members of that Church, were Catholics at the beginning, and are still Catholics today. This has nothing to do with "coming first with God", or having "the highest place in heaven". Every human being will be judged personally. But being in the will of God isn't a bad place to start, and Jesus made it clear that it was His divine will for all peoples to belong to the One True Church He which He personally founded.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 03, 2003.

Dear Paul, I cannot for the life of me find the place in God's Word where it says that Jesus and His disciples founded the catholic church. However I did find that all the people who decided to follow Jesus were all called Christians as well as "The Church". Acts:11:26: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts:26:28: Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. 1Pt:4:16: Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. No mention of catholic anywhere. Paul are you catholic, or are you Christian?

-- Candice T. Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), February 04, 2003.

Dear Candice,

I am Catholic, and therefore fully Christian. Every place in scripture which mentions "The Church" is a direct reference to the early Catholic Church, which is the only Christian Church that existed before the 11th century, and the only Christian Church Jesus ever intended to exist. As you correctly noted, the early Catholics were called "THE Church", not "the churches". Denominationalism is a direct violation of God's plan for His Church. It's interesting that you mentioned Antioch as the first place the followers of Jesus were called Christians - because it was the first bishop of that same community, Ignatius, a disciple of the Apostle John, who identified the Church of Jesus Christ as "the Holy Catholic Church" in the year 107. The followers of Christ (Christians) had adopted that name before the end of the first century, to express the essential characteristic of their Church - its universality - ONE Church for ALL people, which is what Jesus had commanded. "Catholic" means "universal", which is why the early Christian Church adopted that name. That same Church is still universal today, and is the only Church that can make that claim.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 04, 2003.


I don't know how I could get through the day without the help from my special friends among the saints! They strengthen us, encourage us, ask God to give us things we don't even know we need ... in short, they are our big brothers and sisters who are helping "Mom" and "Dad" take care of us!

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), February 05, 2003.

Dear Paul, you stated that the Catholic Church was the only church that existed prior to the 11th century. A few words for you :

Revelation 2:14 - But I have a few things against you, that you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat idol sacrifices and to commit fornication.

Was this a Catholic church ?

How about this one....

Revelation 2:20

But I have something against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, she who calls herself a prophetess and teaches and leads My slaves astray to commit fornication and to eat idol sacrifices.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 06, 2003.


Dear Oliver,

Yes, John was indeed writing to the early Catholic Church, of which he was a bishop. The early Catholics were all converts from Jewish or pagan backgrounds, and each of those groups tended to hang onto certain traditional practices of their former religions. Hence, the bishops of the Church frequently had to deal with lingering pagan influences such as those John describes here. There was no other Church before the 11th century. If you keep that fact in mind, you will recognize that any question concerning the Christianity which before that time is necessarily a question about Catholicism.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 06, 2003.


Dear Paul,

The thing that I am trying to point out is this. Nowhere in God's Word is there any scripture to support your claim, that true Christians ever called themselves Catholic, or Baptist or Pentecostal or Methodist or any of the thousands of denominations of today for that matter. The truth is that God had no intention of His Christian children separating themselves from each other and going other ways and starting other denominations. His perfect will was for all of us to remain as one and be called Christians - believers and followers of Jesus Christ living our lives according to His laws and His will- and for us to remain that way. However it was those first Christians who separated themselves from the early church and went outside the perfect will and law of God who called themselves catholic. Why and how can I say that the catholic church is operates outside of the Will of God and the Word of God? Just four words, for now,- sola scripture & supra historical. sola scripture basically says that to live your life solely on God's Word is not only misguided but wrong, and supra historical says that some of the things that happened in The Word really didn't happen. Now how can man an imperfect being,- (in fact man without Christ is as imperfect as completely as God is perfect) - come up with the idea and declare that the Perfect Word of God, is incomplete and imperfect, and living our lives solely on His Word is wrong? God, is Infinitely Perfect and let me assure you that His Word is Infinitely Perfect and for us to live our lives solely on His Infinitely Perfect Word and His Infinitely Perfect Will is most definitely and absolutely, infinitely perfect!!! Let me remind you that God's Word says in Mt:24:35; Mk:13:31; Lk:21:33: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. This is the evidence that everything you do, all your catholic traditions and doctrines and teachings that are not founded on the Word of God will pass away. They will cease to exist and I say this without malice or disrespect. So tell me Paul, John, Eugene, Ed all catholics, why should you choose to build you lives on the things that are not founded on God's Word and would cease to exist anyway? Isn't it better to build your lives on the Everlasting Rock, The Rock of God's Word? You know Jesus said that the house, (lives) built on anything else but the Word of God is built on sinking sand. Mt:7:24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house (his life)upon a rock 25: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26: And every one that heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house (his life)upon the sand: 27: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.(of that man) Just a few more scriptures I will add here for now. Isa:55:11: So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Jer:1:12: Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten My word to perform it. Jer:13:10: This evil people, which refuse to hear My words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.

-- Candice T. Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), February 06, 2003.


Candice,

Your implicit claim is that the bible contains the *entirety* of the Word of God. Catholic teaching understands that the Word of God cannot be confined ONLY to written words (even Holy Scripture) - that is why God sent His Son... THE Word of God; the Living Word. If God had wanted JUST scripture as the best way to impart His message, how can one explain that He chose instead to send His Son? And how to explain why His Son never wrote even a letter of instruction to leave with His closest followers? Our goal, as followers of Christ, is not to base our lives merely on scripture - our aim is to base our lives on Christ!

Now the bible (when properly interpreted or understood) will never conflict with the life and teachings of Christ... it's not possible. But protestant interpretation has an inherent dilemma - to interpret scripture in light of *what*? ONLY scripture itself (with NO corroboration from ANY other source)?! Or with corroboration from theologians in denominations founded in the 1600s (or later)?!

Catholics can interpret scripture and calibrate our understanding based on Traditions handed to us through the apostles (apostolic succession) by Christ Himself - THE very living, breathing WORD of God! It's not a question of whether the Church *OR* the bible is authoritative. Catholicism understands that it's the Church based firmly on the teaching of Christ (as given to the apostles) *AND* corroborated with scripture that is authoritative. That's why Christ's Church (the Catholic Church) - inspired by the Holy Spirit - collected the books of the bible into an official canon. Ironically, if it wasn't for that effort, individuals outside the Church (e.g., protestants) might be peddling theology even MORE mixed-up than we already see.

Objectively, which formula do you think is more trustworthy?

-- Greg Adas (GAdas@Familink.com), February 06, 2003.


Candace, if you study 1st and 2nd century Church history, you will see that the reason the Christians began referring to themselves as Catholics was NOT to distinguish themselves from other Christians, but to distinguish themselves from heretics and pagans. There were no "Bible Christians" or "Fundamentalists" back then - only the one, true, Holy Catholic Church. :-)

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), February 06, 2003.

Dear Candice:

You say: "Nowhere in God's Word is there any scripture to support your claim, that true Christians ever called themselves Catholic"

A: Obviously! Also nowhere in God's word is there any scripture to support the fact that Luther rebelled against the Church of God - but it still happened! Historical events that took place after the last scriptures were written obviously are not mentioned in scripture - but they are still historical events, and can be learned from non- scriptural historical writings. Historical writings clearly demonstrate that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ. While we're on the subject, nowhere in God's word is there any scripture which suggests that we have to verify everything from the Bible - so why do you try to do so?

You say: "God had no intention of His Christian children separating themselves from each other and going other ways and starting other denominations".

A: You sure hit the nail on the head there! So, why do you follow one of the thousands of conflicting traditions which did so, rather than the historically identifiable original Christian Church which Christ founded?

You say: "it was those first Christians who separated themselves from the early church and went outside the perfect will and law of God who called themselves catholic".

A: That is sheer fantasy. There is not a single line of historical record indicating the existence of any Christian Church but the Holy Catholic Church prior to the 11th century.

You say: "Why and how can I say that the catholic church is operates outside of the Will of God and the Word of God? Just four words, for now,- sola scripture & supra historical. sola scripture basically says that to live your life solely on God's Word is not only misguided but wrong"

A: You are a bit mixed up here I think, or at least your explanation is. Both Catholics and Protestants believe that we should live our lives according to God's Word. "Sola scriptura", a modern belief which no-one ever heard of before the 16th century, is the erroneous Protestant idea that God's Word is restricted to those written texts which the Catholic Church selected to be included in the Bible. That idea is sheer nonsense. the Word of God is everything that Jesus taught the Apostles, and everything that the Holy Spirit inspired them to know - not just the parts they happened to include in their written correspondence. Also, the idea of sola scriptura is absolutely unbiblical, and cannot be supported from scripture.

You say: "supra historical says that some of the things that happened in The Word really didn't happen".

A: Some of the things described in the Bible DIDN'T really happen. They are stories - allegories - used by the authors to teach a truth. Jesus himself used such fictional allegories in His teaching. They are called parables - made-up stories designed to convey a specific truth. The very first step in correct scriptural interpretation is discerning what is literal and what is allegorical - a discernment which is available to men only through the power of the Holy Spirit working through the Church Jesus founded.

You say: "Now how can man an imperfect being,- (in fact man without Christ is as imperfect as completely as God is perfect) - come up with the idea and declare that the Perfect Word of God, is incomplete and imperfect, and living our lives solely on His Word is wrong? God, is Infinitely Perfect and let me assure you that His Word is Infinitely Perfect and for us to live our lives solely on His Infinitely Perfect Word and His Infinitely Perfect Will is most definitely and absolutely, infinitely perfect!"

A: And herein lies the problem with denominational religion (including those denominations which call themselves "non- denominational"). They each claim to be living solely on his word - yet the beliefs of each sect conflict with the beliefs of the other sects. Is it possible that his word conflicts with itself? Certainly not, for as you yourself indicated, it is perfect! The only conclusion that can reasonably be drawn from this situation is that the conflicting beliefs of all these manmade denominations are NOT actually his word! each group is living solely on their own interpretation of his word, and none of those interpretatrions fully and accurately represent his actual word. Contrast this state of doctrinal chaos with the ongoing, never-changing, universal teaching of the one true Church founded by Jesus - the Catholic Church!

You say: "catholic traditions and doctrines and teachings that are not founded on the Word of God will pass away."

A: When can we expect this "passing away" to begin? So far the teaching of the Catholic Church is constant and unchanging for 2,000 years. In contrast, whole Protestant denomination, let alone specific teachings, appear and disappear every year. Talk about unstable!

You say: "why should you choose to build your lives on the things that are not founded on God's Word and would cease to exist anyway?"

A: Please ask yourself the same question, in view of the evidence i just presented demonstrating that specifically Protestant beliefs cannot be God's word. God's word says the Church is the foundation of truth. Do you accept this? I do. God's word says that whatsoever the Church makes binding on earth is also bound in heaven. Do you believe this/ I do, because it is God's word. God's word says that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church Jesus founded to all truth. Do you believe that? If you do, how do you account for all the conflicting beliefs of Protestantism? If you don't believe it, why not? It is God's word!

You say: "You know Jesus said that the house, (lives) built on anything else but the Word of God is built on sinking sand".

A: So true! Which is why the Church Christ founded continues to be built on the fullness of God's word revealed through the Biblically identified foundation of truth - not merely on those truths recorded in a book of texts compiled by the Church. Jesus also said "a house divided against itself cannot stand". Could this be the reason the Catholic Church stands firm after 2,000 years, while Protestantism continues on a downward spiral of disintegration and division?

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 06, 2003.


Plus, Candace, SCRIPTURE says that the "Church" is the foundation and pillar of the truth. 1st Timothy 3:15 NOT scripture! Scripture itself does not claim to be the SOLE rule of faith ANYWHERE! Sola scriptura is an invention of the Reformers!! It was a novel idea then, and it has resulted in endless DIVISIONS, political upheavels, and wars, wars, and rumors of wars. MILLIONS DIED as a result of the Reformation.

But getting back to the "Church is the foundation," that begs the questions, "which Church?" If I had to hazard a guess, I would say the one with the pedigree -- The Catholic Church -- whose roots can can be traced back to the 12 apostles with Christ Jesus, the chief cornerstone. NO other church can make that claim!

Protestantism has no authority to shut down the millions of heretics running around in this country (USA) masquerading as "teachers" of the Word. Just check out TBN sometime and you will see heretic after heretic on a supposedly Christian station, espousing blasphemy, doctrines of demons. Yet they all claim to be teaching God's inerrant Word! But under the umbrella of Protestantism, who is to say whether they are right or wrong? The Bible, you say? Well, they can prove their doctrines of demons straight the pages of the Holy Bible. The issue is authority, Candace, who has the authority?

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 07, 2003.


Dear Paul, Christine, Oliver, Greg, Gail,

It was not my intention to offend you and I would like to say here that I am sorry that I did. However my intention was simply to point out that the Word of God is the final authority on any and every subject, and also to point out the beautiful simplicity of God's Word. Let me tell you what I have learned from the Holy Spirit without the advice of "the supreme council of the catholic church." First of all the Holy Spirit is given to each of us who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Master of our lives. If we approach the Word of God with a clean heart ie. with the aim to seeking truth and to do all of God's commandments within God's Word then you would find that there is really no need for any one "supreme council" to dictate and to interpret to you what the Word means.-- 1Jn:4:6: We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (through the Holy Spirit) 1Cor:2:12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. -- Secondly, God's Word is to be used as THE manual for living. Just as when we purchase new equipment, we receive a manual to tell us how to use the product and what not to do with it, so too is the Word of God the manual given by the Creator to the creation. In it, are His divine instructions for our lives, but we must know how to use the manual and follow the instructions in the manual if we are to have successful lives according to God's standards. Now the manual --The Word says, --Deut:29:29: The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.-- So in the Word there a hidden treasures we must find. --Mt:13:44: Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. --So if you are to find the hidden treasures you are to get rid of every teaching and doctrine that does not come within the boundaries of God's Holy Word, just as the man sold everything he had to buy the field. Keeping in mind it was Jesus who told the story. Now why is the treasure hidden? Mt:13:34: All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:35: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. --Why?--Lk:8:10: And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.-- The treasure, God's hidden treasures will only to be found by those who really want to find it and it can only be found if you are willing to give up everything you have ever been taught outside the Word. The Word is also the field and the only way you can find the treasures is to come into the boundaries of the Word. Now with this in mind, let me give you a few examples to the power that is available to every single Christian on the earth, IF we do all of God's commands. The law of Genesis says, plant a seed and it will grow. Gen:1:11: And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. Gen:1:12: And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Gen:1:29: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. -- God's Word is seed. Lk:8:11: Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. --Then there is due process Eucc 3:1-9: To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 2: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; --God's Word is seed and it shall accomplish. --Isaiah 55:10: For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.-- How does God's Word return unto Him? We speak it into our lives and into our situations. God hastens to perform His Word in our lives. --Jer:1:12: Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it.-- When we rightly divide the Word we have the unlimited power of God available to us.--2Tm:2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth.-- Now I will give an example as to how I put this power to work for me and my kids. I used to have to wear glasses, and after the birth of my son, my eyes became even worse, so I planted seed. -- Mt:21:22: And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.-- Where did I plant the seed? In the good soil of my soul, how is the soil of my soul good? I have set my mind and my heart to believe and to do God's commandments.-- Ezra 7:9: For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him. 10: For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments..-- Anyway, I take my glasses that very day some fourteen years ago to this day I have never had to use a pair of glasses! Then my son needed to have an operation on his right leg. So I planted the seed.--Isa:53:5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; AND WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED.-- I also imagine that while Jesus hangs on the cross, I take some of His Precious Blood in my hands and rub it up and down my son's leg. Now I understand due process. The seed takes time to grow. (Eucc 3:1-9) The result of my patient trust in God? My son's leg is healed within the week, before the week was up actually, he never had to have the operation! A couple of weeks ago, my daughter begins to throw up, seven times in two hours and she was getting worse. What did I do? I planted the seed (Isa 53:5) by the end of the night she has stopped vomiting and the next day she is well. Now with that kind of power available to me and to answer your question, "Objectively, which formula do you think is more trustworthy?" THE WORD OF GOD IS THE MOST TRUSTWORTHY AND I CHOOSE THE WORD OF GOD ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!



-- Candice T. Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), February 08, 2003.


Dear Candice,

You didn't offend me. Indeed you could not do so even if that was your purpose - and I realize it was not.

You are right that the Word of God is the final authority, but you are stuck on the 16th century tradition that the Bible alone is the Word of God, an idea no Christian on earth ever heard of before that time. This human idea is not only illogical and unbiblical, but the sad state of doctrinal confusion in Protestantism demonstrates just how unreliable it is.

You claim: "If we approach the Word of God with a clean heart ie. with the aim to seeking truth and to do all of God's commandments within God's Word then you would find that there is really no need for any one "supreme council" to dictate and to interpret to you what the Word means". Hmmmm OK, so where is the problem then? Is it that denominational Christians are not seeking the truth? Or is it that they don't have a clean heart? By your definition it must be one or the other, because the hundreds of doctrinal conflicts in Protestantism cannot be the work of the Holy Spirit. So please TELL ME - what, in your opinion, is responsible for this deplorable state of affairs, which is fundamentally opposed to what Jesus described for His Church? From where I sit, your system just doesn't seem to be working.

You say: "God's Word is to be used as THE manual for living. Just as when we purchase new equipment, we receive a manual to tell us how to use the product and what not to do with it". Yes, in my work, I use a lot of high tech equipment, and I am always glad to have a manual nearby. But the manual is not useful unless it is correctly interpreted, and sometimes I have to pick up the phone and consult those who wrote the manual, since it is with them that the real authority rests. If the manual said "this is the ONLY source of information about this machine; there is no other authority to back it up", I would be very worried indeed, for no written work can explain or interpret itself. The same thing is true with the Church. Jesus gave the Church authority long before the Bible existed. He also gave the Church the truth - which is how the truth got into the Bible in the first place. The Bible is the writing of the Church, and the Church alone can properly interpret it.

You say: "THE WORD OF GOD IS THE MOST TRUSTWORTHY AND I CHOOSE THE WORD OF GOD ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!" Well, that is an admirable intention - however you still need to deal with the FACTS, and the observable fact is that Protestant denominations have no way of achieving unity of belief, and therefore they have no way of knowing the actual Word of God. They are sadly confined to knowing only their hundreds of conflicting interpretations of the Word of God, which are often far from its real meaning. Why not listen to the Church which actually received the Word of God from God Himself, rather than those who borrowed the Word from the True Church, and now struggle in their inability to correctly interpret it!

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 08, 2003.


Hi Candace, Paul, and everyone else:

Yes, Candace, the Word of God is rich beyond measure. Every Christian should mediate daily on His previous word. He speaks to us through it, TO BE SURE! The sin comes when a "person" has what they believe is an "infallible" inspiration and divide accordingly, seeking followers after themselves, which we see OVER AND OVER AGAIN in Protestantism.

Jesus did establish an authoritative disciplining Church, a single unit. He prayed for unity in the body. Paul chastized the Corinthians for splitting according to their favorite teachers. The Church was one cohesive unit. Then, you have 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th generation Christianity and on and on. These folks were by and large illiterate. They desperately needed the authority and shepherding of the Church to teach and disciple and protect the unity of the Church. It is that teaching of the Church based on scripture and tradition that makes it strong. Paul says in Thess. to hold fast to the traditions, both oral and written. Why? Because these traditional teachings of the Church are the glue that holds it together -- of course by the power of the Holy Spirit.

When the Reformers split the Church, and threw out the traditions, they decapitated the head, and are henceforth running amuck, as they still are today, blown away by every wave of new fad doctrines. Much like a chicken with it's head cut off!

The Church is rich in good teaching based on scripture, and the thoughts and inspiration of Godly men throughout the ages. Have you ever read the Catechism? It is awesome!

It is just inconceivable to me that Christ would have expected his followers (many of them illiterate) to flounder around with no shepherd, no teachers, no church, AND no scripture for centuries after His Ascension! (Remember N.T. scripture was not canonized until 400 A.D., but these important inspirations were read at mass. Also, there were no printing presses until 1400-1500).

So what did these poor folk do? How did they grow in His grace? How did they grow in the knowledge of Him? History proves beyond ALL doubt, that it was the Church; the Church that Jesus Christ founded that filled that role -- the Church He promised to lead into ALL the truth!

God is good to His promises. He said He would, and He did. He lead His Church, taught His Church, disciplined His church.

Now, I am not saying that God does not use Protestant churches too! HE DOES! But the fullness of the truth, the fullness of the faith, the fulfillment of all of His promises are found in one Church -- the one He gave the promise to!

Lots of Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 08, 2003.


Dear Gail, Paul, everyone,

I cannot help but feel that you are so proud of the fact that the catholic church, was established 2,000 years ago, but you take no heed that the Word of God was established from the beginning of time and it was only when God caused Moses to pen to paper, (or rather to hew onto stone) His Most Holy Word it was then that the Most Holy Word came into written form! You do not consider that the bible of the "Protestants" has remained unchanged from that very first day up to today and will remain that way forever and ever! The Hebrew bible, the one that Jesus Christ studied scriptures from, it the same one we "Protestants" as you so like to call us use today. How is that for foundation! How is that for establishment! You say that we do not have unity, but let me assure you that we do! Our unity is not based on revelations outside of God's Word as your catholic doctrines and traditions are. Our unity is based solely on the Most Holy Word of the Most High God! Our unity is based on oneness with our Creator, through His written Word, His commandments and His teachings and His statutes which He commanded us to keep Josh:1:8: This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. The catholic church came into existence ONLY two thousand years ago and from the moment of it's conception it was filled with lies and erroneous doctrines totally contradicting the Word of God filling its bible with six extra books that they found somewhere. Two questions to you here - Why study and build you lives on something that Jesus did not build His life on? And when you consider it, why should you, why should anyone who calls themselves Christian for that matter?

Paul, you said "While we're on the subject, nowhere in God's word is there any scripture which suggests that we have to verify everything from the Bible - so why do you try to do so? " here is the command in the Word that says you must. Acts:17:11: These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures DAILY, whether those things were so.

-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), March 04, 2003.


Dear Candice,

The important thing to recognize about the Catholic Church is not when it was founded, but by whom. This isn't a matter of "first is best". This a matter of one Church founded by Jesus Christ, just as described in the Word of God, vs. thousands of competing, conflicting churches founded by mere men, in violation of the will of God.

I agree that God's word existed not only "from the beginning of time, but in fact from all eternity. However, it was not given to men until, as you said, chosem men were selected and inspired by God to write it down. You state that the Protestant Bible is unchanged from the original. That is simply not true. It is historical fact that the founder of your tradition, Martin Luther, removed seven whole books from the Holy Bible, which all Christians had used for 1,200 years, plus part of another book, added words to the text of some remaining books, and attempted to remove several New Testament books as well. Fortunately he was prevented from carrying out that plan by the vehement opposition of his own followers! Otherwise you would have even less of the holy scriptures available to you than you do have.

You claim that Protestants have unity based on God's Word. If so, why don't Baptists worship with Methodists? Why don't Lutherans worship with Pentacostals? Because they are not members of the same church, that's why. They don't have the same beliefs. In fact, the Catholic Church is the only place where such unity exists. A Catholic can go anywhere in the world, and worship in unity with other Catholics. A Baptist often has major theological issues with another Baptist church on the next street corner! That's because neither one of them has any real authority. The disunity and doctrinal chaos of Protestantism is based on personal interpretations of God's Word, in direct violation of God's Word itself, which makes it clear that it is not intended for personal interpretation.

It's interesting that you think the Church of the Apostles was "filled with lies and erroneous doctrines". If that was the case, where do you get your beliefs?? And please don't say the Bible, because the writings of the New Testament came out of the teachings and beliefs of the Church of the Apostles. Therefore if that Church was filled with lies and false doctrines, its writings obviously must be equally false. So - where then did you find your beliefs apart from the teaching of the Catholic Church??? And why are your beliefs more valid than the conflicting beliefs of other Protestant denominations (given that they cannot possibly all be correct)?? These are important questions you need to consider.

I am familiar with the passage from Acts 17. I am all for reading the scriptures daily, and I do so. You do realize of course that at the time this was written it referred only to the Old Testament scriptures, which were the only scriptures the Apostles knew. Therefore it is unlikely that Paul intended people to verify all of the teachings of Jesus ny searching the scriptures, since Jesus was preaching all kinds of things that were not to be found in the Old Testament. What the people were verifying from their Old Testament reading was the identity of Jesus, and the fact that he fulfilled the prophecies regarding the Messiah. They were not confirming what He taught. That they took at His word, and at the word of the apostles, to whom He gave full authority to teach in unity and truth. The successors of those apostles continue to teach today, in unity and in truth. Come and see!

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 04, 2003.


Hi Candace:

I'm not sure what you mean about the "Word of God being established at the beginning of time."

But anyway, Paul is correct concerning the Protestant Bible and it's history. The Councils of Nicea and Hippo canonized the N.T. as we know it, and the deuterocanicals were also named book by book in that decree. Those councils were held approximately in 393 A.D. and in the early 400's.

The Third Council of Carthage was not a general council but a regional council of African bishops, much under the influence of Augustine. The English text below was translated by Bruce Metzger (Protestant apologist). Here is the pertinent part:

"Canon 24. Besides the canonical Scriptures (listed below), nothing shall be read in church under the name of divine Scriptures. Moreover, the canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the four books of the Kings,(a) the two books of Chronicles, Job, the Psalms of David, five books of Solomon,(b) the book of the Twelve minor] Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, the two books of Ezra,(c) and the two books of the Maccabees. The books of the New Testament: the Gospels, four books; the Acts of the Apostles, one book; the epistles of the apostle Paul, thirteen; one book of Hebrews, one epistle; of Peter, two; of John the apostle, three; of James, one; of Jude, one; the Revelation of John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the Church across the sea shall be consulted. On the anniversaries of martyrs, their acts shall also be read."

If you are interested, the early church quoted from the apochrypha in NUMEROUS of their writings, and I can provide those if you like.

Additionally, Candace, the deuterocanicals were part of the Greek Septuagint which was the commonly used "Bible" at the time of the apostles, Greek being the common language of the day.

Having been in numerous Protestant churches over a period of about 20 years, your assertion of Protestant unity really amazes me. Baptists believe "once saved always saved." Assemblies of God believe you must "speak in tongues, and believe in a pre-tribulation rapture." Presbyterians believe "God elects certain individuals to salvation, while rejecting others." Word of Faith believes "everyone should be healthy and wealthy, and that you can speak your circumstances into existence." And I could go on and on. If you listen to any Protestant radio or television for any length of time, you will find pastors contradicting each other over and over, and berating each other for their various beliefs.

You talked about being proud to be a church only 2,000 years old. Actually, it is very humbling to be in the Church that Christ founded himself. There is no pride there, but just a joy and peace at finally being "home." And thankfulness at being guided into this celestial family by the hand of my loving Father.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 04, 2003.


Dear Paul, The important thing to recognize about the Word of God is not by whom it was written, but by Whom it was given. This is a matter of one Church founded by Jesus Christ, just as described in the Word of God, which clearly states that we the believers are The Church. Not just the members of the catholic church. All of us who believe in Jesus Christ and have made Him the Lord and Savior of our lives, we are the church. -- Acts:2:47: Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts:9:31: Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and WALKING in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied. Acts:11:22: Then tidings of these things came unto the EARS of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch. Acts:14:27: And when they were come, and had GATHERED THE CHURCH TOGETHER they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. --The church as we see here in the Word is the living, breathing, walking, hearing, believer of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And definitely not just the single organization of the catholic church. God says, The Church as IS the believer!

Now as to your claim that there is no unity among us, that is went out with the nineties. Today in our churches there are Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostals, Jews and even Catholics who come together to worship and to hear the uncompromised and complete Word of God. Today in our churches all Christians are worshiping as we should in Spirit and in Truth. Now what you say " The disunity and doctrinal chaos of Protestantism is based on personal interpretations of God's Word, in direct violation of God's Word itself, which makes it clear that it is not intended for personal interpretation."goes against what the Word of God says --2Cor:3:17: Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 1Cor:12:7: But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 1Jn:3:24: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1Jn:4:13: Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. -- thus making your claim invalid and unfounded. The Holy Spirit is given to each person, who will receive Him but as you said not for personal interpretation, but for the Holy Spirit to teach us so we may understand the way God intended for His Word to be understood. To attempt to understand the Word of God without the guidance and the direction of the Holy Spirit is folly and will lead to attacks from satan with deception and will eventually lead to your destruction. Now, if I were on a desert island, or in a deep jungle somewhere, and all I had was my bible, the Holy Spirit will be there with me to teach and to guide me. But I have to be willing and open to receive the teachings of the Holy Spirit, if I am unwilling to receive truth from the Holy Spirit, there is now way He can give it to me.

Now I did not say that the Apostles were filled with lies and erroneous doctrines. I said for the teachings and traditions of the catholic church are filled with lies and erroneous doctrines that go against the Word of God. Here is few of them: --Deut 28:14: And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, TO GO AFTER OTHER GODS TO SERVE THEM. PS 82:6: I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 34: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?-- First God says that we are not to worship other gods then He clearly defines that we, the children of God are the gods in both the O.T and the N.T. But the catholic church has taken it upon itself disregard the command of God and to teach in defiance the very thing God said not to do. Here is another, God says not to invoke, talk to, pray to the dead because it is an abomination unto Him.-- Deut. 18:11: Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12: For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.-- And again the catholic church defies the Word of God and does it anyway. Talking to the dead, whose dead bodies are buried here on the earth. Dead people! Saul died the very next day when he invoked the spirit of Samuel. 1 Samuel 283-19 1Chron:10:13: So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it.-- Isn't the spirit of Samuel alive in heaven today, with all the other living spirits of the saints who have died and left their bodies behind on the earth as well? If Saul died for doing this what will become of you, where is you destiny?

Jesus says: --John3: 5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a MAN be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. --A person must be able to choose and understand what he is doing and what the baptism means in order to be baptized, yet the catholic church baptizes its people as babies. A baby cannot choose, he/ she cannot decide. The catholic church says that the original sin is disobedience when the Word clearly states that the original sin is pride. Isaiah 14: 11-15 & Genesis 3:1-6. Now as to Acts 17, you said "unlikely," you have to be absolutely sure to be able to make those statements. When it comes to God's Word, you cannot be uncertain when you make statements like that. Anyway Paul said --Acts:17:11: These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures DAILY, whether those things were so.-- Paul, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Who is God says that those in Thessalonica were MORE NOBLE because the received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures DAILY whether those things were so. God counts as more noble when we search His scriptures on a daily basis and line up what is revealed with His Word. With this in mind let me say here that revelation that is not based on scripture is deception, it is a lie of satan and must be immediately discarded, otherwise, satan will use it to enslave, you and to keep you in bondage. Revelation must be based on the Word of God and not on what the catholic church says, or anyone else who teaches outside the Word for that matter! The Word comes first. What the Word says surpasses the teachings of the catholic church. See what God Word says about the "revelation" you live your lives by, before you make it law in you life! Read and see!



-- Candice Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), March 05, 2003.


Hi Candace: I see that you are not going to address my post concerning the deuterocanicals. Doesn't it bother you that the Protestant reformers tampered with God's Holy Word? I sure does me!

Just wonderin,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 05, 2003.


Dear Candice,

An important thing to recognize about the Word of God is that no-one would even know what it is if the Catholic Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, defined the canon of scripture for all time.

A: You have to look at this in proper context. The context in which it was written is this - ALL believers of the time had the SAME beliefs, and were therefore one and the SAME Church, and that Church was the Catholic Church. Therefore, "all believers", at the time this was writen meant "all believers in the SAME beliefs", or put more sinmply, "all Catholics". Trying to apply that to the situation which exists today, where "believers" believe in all kinds of unbiblical, contradictory, manmade traditions, and belong to thousands of unauthorized manmade churches, strips the passage of everything it originally meant. "Believers" doesn't mean believers in any old set of doctrines. It means believers in the TRUTH.

A: Again, this definition applied to "the Church" in apostolic times, and for the next 1500 years. But now all believers cannot reasonably be said to be members of one Church. Jesus said a house divided against itself cannot stand. Therefore one Church cannot include hundreds of conflicting and contradictory beliefs. Today, thanks to the Protestant rebellion, Christianity is reduced to "the churches" - thousands of them - not "The Church".

Yes - the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ, in its true meaning - not thousands of conflicting human interpretations of that gospel.

A: So there is unity between Protestants and Jews?? I don't know many Jews who think so. Getting together for an interdenomination prayer meeting is not exactly the same as being "ONE, even as you Father and I are ONE". That kind of unity means NO differences in belief. Can you Imagine the Trinity each having their own personal, conflicting beliefs, but getting together once a month to pray, and calling themselves UNIFIED? The unity which is supposed to exist in the Church is that which exists in the Trinity - total and complete. Jesus said so. Denominational religious tradition has destroyed that unity in Christianity at large, but it still exists in the Church Jesus founded.

<1Cor:12:7: But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal>

A: And your personal interpretation of this verse is that each man is supposed to interpret scripture for himself?? This verse is about the use of charismatic gifts in communal worship! It has NOTHING to do with scriptural interpretation!

A: If this is why the Holy Spirit was given to us, why isn't it working?? Denominationalism proves that its members do NOT "understand the way God intended for His Word to be understood". they constantly bicker ans squabble over it, and split into more and more churches every month. God does not contradict Himself! Which is why HIS Church's teaching never changes and never conflicts with itself.

A: BINGO! Therefore if you are involved in a tradition which constantly demonstrates its inability to understand the Word of God, it is time you asked yourself why this is so, and looked elsewhere, for a Church which teaches in Spirit and in Truth and in UNITY.

A: Is that the key? You have to be on a desert island? Maybe THAT's why the Holy Spirit is not guiding denominations in their attempts at interpretation of doctrinal truth. Or maybe, just maybe, denominationalism is so far outside of God's plan for His Church that the Holy Spirit simply cannot work within that ungodly arrangement.

You said that the Catholic Church was filled with such lies and falsities from the beginning. History plainly shows that the apostles were the beginning of the Catholic Church. Therefore, all that I said applies. According to your claims, all Christianity is an offshoot of lies and untruth, and the writings of the Catholic Church, including the New Testament, must also be filled with lies and untruth. Ignoring history can lead you to make some very damaging statements.

A: Huh? I've been Catholic for over 50 years, and I have yet to be introduced to any God but the One True God.

A: The occult practices condemned in this Bible passage - magic, fortune telling, divination, seances, and casting spells - are condemned even MORE strongly in sections 2115-2117 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church! Read it! However, such condemned practices obviously have absolutely nothing to do with the Christian practice of asking other Christians for intercessory prayer. As for speaking to "dead Christians", the Bible says there is no such thing (John 11:26).

A: Gee, what about women then?? Or maybe we should take the term "man" in the broader context, to mean what it was intended to mean - "people"?? When Jesus came to save "all men", did he only save adult males? Only adults? All children are going to hell?

A: Thank-you for your opinion, which I notice you did not back up with any scripture. Also, you have to deal with the fact that this opinion of yours is a modern tradition of men which no Christian on earth ever heard of until a few hundred years ago. Yes, Jesus said a person has to be born of water and the Spirit in order to enter the Kingdom. He also said, speaking of the babies and toddlers gathered around Him, "to such as these belongs the kingdom of God". So, the children possess the kingdom which cannot be possessed without baptism, yet they may not be baptized. Talk about double-talk!

A: No, the Bible says that pride was their downfall. This does not negate the fact that their specific sin was disobedience. Pride is the root of all sin. It was the reason they disobeyed. That's why it was their downfall.

A: Sorry, but the fact is there would be no scripture unless the Church had received the revelation first. How do you think they wrote it down if they didn't already know it? When Paul wrote his letters, he was drawing on the truth already revealed to the Church. If revelation must be based on scripture, then the Church had no revelation for the first 400 years, until the Church compiled the Bible and defined the canon. I understand your compulsion about scripture. Having rejected all the authority Christ placed in His Church, and much of the truth as well, the printed book - a book of Catholic teaching - is all you have left. And then you find that it cannot be correctly interpreted by the rules of your manmade tradition. That must be frustrating. But it is never too late to come home.

A: No. What the Word says IS the teachings of the Catholic Church, and it far surpasses the many human interpretations that it is subjected to. The Word never contradicts itself, and it never contradicts the teaching of the Church which defined, compiled, and published it. But it surely contradicts many of the Protestant interpretations. It has to, because they contradict one another!



-- Paul (
PaulCyp@cox.net), March 05, 2003.


P.S. My intent in the above post was that sections of your post would appear, followed by my response to each section. Unfortunately your text did not appear when I posted it. I don't know why. This may make my comments a bit difficult to follow, but there they are for what they are worth. Sorry.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 06, 2003.

Paul,

There is only one Truth that matters. Jn:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am The way, The truth, and The Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Let me remind you that it was the catholic church who gave the name "Protestant" to Christian believers who would not come under their rule and their way of doing things way back when, and it was the catholic church who committed heinous murders all in the "name of holy mother church!" And that it is the catholic church, who stands outside of the unity of true Christianity - The Church.

""In 1244, their power was further increased by the emperor Frederic II, who declared himself the protector and friend of all the inquisitors, and published the cruel edicts, viz., 1. That all heretics who continue obstinate, should be burnt. 2. That all heretics who repented, should be imprisoned for life. During the Inquisition, the Catholic religion killed millions. Why? Primarily to suppress any and all opposition to the pope. let's review how this organization treated a man who simply wanted to get the Bible into the hands of the common people. In the late 1300s John Wycilf translated the scriptures from the Latin Vulgate. Some 40 odd years after his death, the Catholic religion dug up his bones and burned them calling him an arch-heretic. In the 1500's William Tyndale sought to translate the Bible into the language of the common people, English. He could not gain approval from the Catholic religion so he worked as an outlaw on the run in Europe, translating the Bible. He was eventually captured, condemned and executed in 1536. It is because of people like these men, Tyndale and Wycliffe, that we have the scriptures today. If the Catholic religion had its way, we'd still be in ignorance about the Bible and enslaved to the pope. Time fails me here to tell of other marytrs like John Hus, John Rogers, etc. who were killed by popish persons. ""

The unity between Protestants and Jews exist today in that, Jews are coming to believe in Jesus Christ as their Messiah. The Jewsish Christian. And there is simply no "interdenomination" in true Christianity. ie we all worship the same God, living our lives the way God intended for us to live through His Most Holy Word. And today both Jews Christians and Christians are united in this Way through the Word. However interdenomination as catholic have it, the last catholic mass I attended, included Hindus, Muslims and "others" all "praying to their gods" on the alter with strange bells and feathers and smoke.

There is no difference in belief in the Word of God among Christians those who would live their lives according to God's Word, and we are achieving "ONE, even as you Father and I are ONE".

"<1Cor:12:7: But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal> A: And your personal interpretation of this verse is that each man is supposed to interpret scripture for himself??" No Paul, what I said was, I agree with you in condemning personal interpretation. It is the Holy Spirit Who is given to all Who teaches and guides each and every Christian to the understanding of all Truth and that it is folly to try to understand the Word without the help of the Holy Spirit.

"A: If this is why the Holy Spirit was given to us, why isn't it working??" Why isn't what working?

"Denominationalism proves that its members do NOT "understand the way God intended for His Word to be understood". they constantly bicker ans squabble over it, and split into more and more churches every month. God does not contradict Himself! Which is why HIS Church's teaching never changes and never conflicts with itself" Perhaps you didn't understand what I have been saying all the time. I'll say it again. "Protestant" churches of today, are all coming together in agreement with the Word of God. No longer are they taking out phrases to use to their benefit. Today in "Protestant" churches the complete Word of God and only the Word of God is preached and taught to all members under the guidance and directions of God's Holy Spirit. We don't pray to dead people because God told us not to do it. We don't bow our heads to images and idols, because God told us not to do it. We believe that there is only One Truth and it is the Word of God and we also believe that it is only that Truth that matters. The Holy Spirit does work in this arrangement. In our churches, the deaf hear, the lame walk, the blind see, the poor have the Good News preached to them and the dead are raised to life. Who but the Holy Spirit does these things? Tell me Paul, when was the last time that these things happened in your catholic church?

"History plainly shows that the apostles were the beginning of the Catholic Church. Therefore, all that I said applies." History is not what is matters here. What matters is what the Word of God said.Acts:11:26: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. AND THE DISCIPLES WERE CALLED CHRISTIANS FIRST IN ANTIOCH. Therefore what you said does not matter and remains invalid and unfounded. Ignoring the Word of God and choosing the history of the world over God's Word will lead to death. Prov:14:12: There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

"A: Huh? I've been Catholic for over 50 years, and I have yet to be introduced to any God but the One True God. A: The occult practices condemned in this Bible passage - magic, fortune telling, divination, seances, and casting spells - are condemned even MORE strongly in sections 2115-2117 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church!" More strongly that what Paul? More strongly than the Word of God? Is that what the catholic church is saying? That the word of the catholic church is stronger than the Word of God? That it's teachings are above and beyond the teachings of the Word? Tell me Paul, does the catholic church believe that God, in His infinite Perfection, in His infinite Wisdom erred, when He caused His Word to be penned to paper? Does the catholic church believe that The Infinite Perfection of the Word of God in imperfect and lacking in some or perhaps you think in many ways? Is the catholic church exalting its teachings and its' doctrines above God's Word? Above God? Are you saying that God made a mistake when He commanded man not to commit necromancy? And all the other things you do that He said not to do? Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church is even more than the Word of God? Tell me Paul do you believe the catechism is more important than God's Word? Did you choose catholic doctrine over the Word of The Most High God? Did ya' Paul? Did ya'? "As for speaking to "dead Christians", the Bible says there is no such thing (John 11:26)." You play games with God Paul, Deut 18:11- 12 God commands us here to have nothing to do with the dead. According to John 11:26: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?-- Every Christian knows that our spirits never die, but our bodies do and this is what God meant in Deut 18:11-12. Don't invoke those whose dead bodies are in the ground, and since you seem to want to play games, let me add those whose bodies were consumed by fire as well!

"A: Gee, what about women then?? Or maybe we should take the term "man" in the broader context, to mean what it was intended to mean - "people"?? When Jesus came to save "all men", did he only save adult males? Only adults?" Gen:1: 26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; MALE AND FEMALE CREATED HE THEM. Come now Paul, don't play games with God's Word! Male and female He created man. We have male man and we have female man. The species of man.

"A: Thank-you for your opinion, which I notice you did not back up with any scripture. " I did back up what I said with scripture, perhaps you need to read it again to make sure.

"Yes, Jesus said a person has to be born of water and the Spirit in order to enter the Kingdom. He also said, speaking of the babies and toddlers gathered around Him, "to such as these belongs the kingdom of God". So, the children possess the kingdom which cannot be possessed without baptism, yet they may not be baptized. Talk about double-talk! " The key words in this scripture are "to such as these" every believer knows you have to have a child like faith and trust in the Father. To trust and to believe in Him implicitly the way a child trusts and believes in its parent. When my son was about 3 years old he wrote me a letter. It said "Mummy, I love you, you can do anything." I still have it and I'll keep it forever. This is what Jesus meant by "to such as these" it was a comparison as to the faith and trust we must have in our Father that He can do anything!

"Pride is the root of all sin. It was the reason they disobeyed " So is pride not a sin Paul? And did it not come first?

"If revelation must be based on scripture, then the Church had no revelation for the first 400 years, until the Church compiled the Bible and defined the canon." Ex:24:7: And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. 2Chron:34:24: Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah: Neh:8:8: So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. Neh:8:18: Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner. Neh:9:3: And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the law of the LORD their God one fourth part of the day; and another fourth part they confessed, and worshipped the LORD their God. Neh:13:1: On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever; Esth:6:1: On that night could not the king sleep, and he commanded to bring the book of records of the chronicles; and they were read before the king.--The ancestors of the nation of Israel had written The Word of God down long before the catholic church came into existence, beginning with Moses. Not the catholic church.

The Church Paul, existed from the very beginning. It began with those who were counted as righteous before the Lord. Gen:7:1: And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Gen:15:6: And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

"I understand your compulsion about scripture. Having rejected all the authority Christ placed in His Church, and much of the truth as well, the printed book - a book of Catholic teaching - is all you have left. And then you find that it cannot be correctly interpreted by the rules of your manmade tradition. That must be frustrating. But it is never too late to come home." Scripture is indeed all I have. It is in God's Word I live, I breathe, I have my being. It is all I need. It all I ever want.

"A: No. What the Word says IS the teachings of the Catholic Church, and it far surpasses the many human interpretations that it is subjected to." What surpasses the many human interpretations? The Word or the catholic church?

"The Word never contradicts itself, and it never contradicts the teaching of the Church which defined, compiled, and published it." Paul, God's Word existed in written form long before the catholic church came into existence. The credit that it was written, goes to the Jews here obeying the commandment of God to write it down begining with Moses in Exodus and ending with John in Revelation, who by the way was Christian, not catholic. Ex:34:1: And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. Ex:24:7: 2Chron:34:24: Neh:8:8: Neh:8:18: Neh:9:3: Neh:13:1: Esth:6:1 Men had written The Word of God down beginning with.

"But it surely contradicts many of the Protestant interpretations. It has to, because they contradict one another!" 1. Tell me Paul, does the catholic church consider the Jews "Protestant." They don't do things the catholic way either 2. Again, today in our "Protestant" churches, Baptists, Methodists, Christian Jews, Catholic and every one who comes under the banner of Christian are worshiping together. Going, going, gone are the days when Christians were divided. Today The Church is coming together like never before to worship and pray as God commanded us to so long ago.

Paul, my intention here is not to condemn anyone, but rather to expose the teachings of the catholic church that goes against God's Word. Why the catholic church you may ask? Because I was catholic, one day, while reading my bible, a catholic bible, I began to realize that we catholics were doing things contrary to God's Word. I begin to realize that there were two teachings. The teachings of the Word of God and the teachings of the catholic church. I began asking myself, whose word is more important? Now I had a choice to make. To choose God's Way or to choose the catholic way. And I choose God' s. Who wrote His Word and when it was written really doesn't matter. All that matters is that it is that He gave it to us. What God has to say on any subject is more important than what anyone, or any organization has to say. We are to live our lives by what God says in His Word and only by His commandments Liv:22:31: Therefore shall ye keep My commandments, and do them: I am the LORD. And when you choose not to, you defy Him. Job:40:8 Wilt thou also disannul My judgment? wilt thou condemn Me, that thou mayest be righteous? Job 41:10: who then is able to stand before Me? When God gives a command on how to do something how can anyone dare not to do it, exactly as He said it or to say otherwise?

Candice



-- Candice T. Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), March 06, 2003.


Dear Candace:

History shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Church, including such men, as Augustine, Clement, Ignatius, Jerome, Thomas Aquinas, and on and on, believed we could, and should ask ALL of our brothers and sisters for their intercession. There is no such thing as a dead Christian!

History also shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that Sola Scriptura was deemed "heretical" and those that adhered to such principles were cast out of the Church.

History shows that great men of the Church (and great by Protestant standards too) believed in purgatory, and the veneration of Mary.

Yet, if what you believe is true, Christ instituted an apostate church from the VERY beginning of its inception, and allowed that apostate church to "mislead" millions and millions of people for 1,500 years. He could have -- at any time -- wiped out that "apostate" hierarchy in one fell swoop. But He didn't. The Church is the ONLY institution that survived the middle ages. How is that possible without the mighty hand of God?

Here's the crux, Candace, I believe Christ is big enough to keep his promises. He said the gates of hell would not prevail. He said he would lead His church into all truth -- NOT CONTRADICTORY TRUTH -- which is what Protestantism is all about. There is no scripture anywhere that teaches scripture is the ONLY basis of ALL truth -- none! It seems if that were true, it would be explicitly taught by Jesus himself, especially if it were meant to be the pillar and foundation of the Church. But the Bible says just the opposite -- the Church is the foundation and pillar of the Truth.

Just one last point to ponder. If the Word of God is the sole repository of our faith -- apart from the Church -- what of the billions of illiterate folk that have lived since Christ, and what of the illiterate folk of today? There were no printing presses until 1,400-1,500. I guess those folks were damned prior to this time -- they had no recourse -- no way to obtain salvation? According to you, the gospel message of salvation was not attainable until printing presses were invented -- so those poor peasants would just be SOL! That is what you must believe, Candace, to believe Christ meant "Protestantism" when he instituted the Church!

I can provide you with quotes out the ying-yang on all of my claims above. You can read them for yourself, if you are interested. Men like Augustine, who almost single handedly assembled our doctrine on the Holy Trinity, and helped thwart the Arian heresy, was too stupid to realize that the Church he was a bishop of, was apostate! There is no WRITINGS anywhere amongst the church fathers that they thought the Church was heading off a cliff of heresy! None!!

Well, I gotta go fix dinner.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 06, 2003.


"it was the catholic church who gave the name "Protestant" to Christian believers who would not come under their rule and their way of doing things way back when"

A: Yes, that's true. The Catholic Church did call the protestors "Protestants", which means "protestors". That doesn't seem too far-fetched. And, "their way of doing things" was simply "the Christian way of doing things" since they were the only Christians.

"the catholic church, who stands outside of the unity of true Christianity - The Church"

A: So ... there was no true Christianity, no true Church, until the 16th century? That's not what my Bible says. And Christian unity can be found today ONLY in the Catholic Church.

"During the Inquisition, the Catholic religion killed millions"

A: That silly statement is history according to Chick Publications. You are revealing your sources here, and they are foul sources to say the least. Well, maybe you didn't read the stuff yourself. It has a way of getting passed on as oral tradition. Anyway, the actual number of people who died during the entire history of the Inquisitions was about 4,000 - about the number of innocent people killed by superstitious Protestants during the witch hunts in Europe and North America. The Church is not proud of this number. It was a sad chapter in the history of God's glorious Church; but let's keep it within the realm of reality. God knew His Church was made up of sinners when He founded it. Every Church is made up of sinners, so no difference there. God never claimed otherwise. But He did claim that His own Church would teach the fullness of truth IN SPITE of being sinners. That's where every other church comes up far short.

"John Wycilf translated the scriptures from the Latin Vulgate"

A: There were at least ten English translations produced before Wycliff's shoddy unauthorized version was produced. His work was riddled with errors, due in part to his lack of scholarship in Latin, and in part to his overt hatred of God's Church which led him to deliberately add and delete sections. The Church therefore, to fulfill its divinely ordained responsibility of preserving the scriptures in their original purity, was forced to take action against him. However, neither Wycliff's corrupted version nor the many better English versions which preceded it had any great impact on the general population since (1) most of them could not read; (2) anyone who could read at all could read Latin; and (3) the printing press had not been invented, so the vernacular versions could not be distributed to the people, even if they had been able to read them.

"William Tyndale sought to translate the Bible into the language of the common people, English"

A: Yes he did, again unnecessarily, again without authorization, and again lacking the necessary scholarship to accomplish the work. The result was much the same - a translation worse than useless, certain to lead people away from the truth of the gospel. But this grossly heretical version was far more dangerous than Wycliff's, since it could be mass produced. The great Sir Thomas More, in his treatise denouncing the work, wrote "finding errors in Tyndale's book is like finding water in the ocean". The Protestant historian Allnatt, in his "Bible and the Reformation" stated that the translation "literally swarmed with gross and flagrant corruptions". Finally King Henry VIII, in 1531, issued an edict condemning the translation and forbidding its use in the kingdom. But the Church of God had already condemned it - thank God!

"we all worship the same God, living our lives the way God intended for us to live through His Most Holy Word"

A: Well yes, we (if you mean Christians) do all worship the same God, and no doubt we all do our best to follow Him faithfully, using whatever means we have available. But let's be realistic. We cannot all be living "the way God intended" if the way one denomination says we must live contradicts the way another denomination claims. And we cannot all be accepting the truth of Jesus Christ if one denomination's doctrines conflict with those of another denomination.

"the last catholic mass I attended, included Hindus, Muslims and "others" all "praying to their gods" on the alter with strange bells and feathers and smoke"

A: ummmm ... ok :-) I won't even ask where. :-)

"There is no difference in belief in the Word of God among Christians those who would live their lives according to God's Word"

A: So ... denominations were formed just for social reasons? Or what? Maybe because of controversy over the refreshments being served?? Is that what separates Methodists from Pentacostals? Anglicans from Baptists?

"I agree with you in condemning personal interpretation. It is the Holy Spirit Who is given to all Who teaches and guides each and every Christian to the understanding of all Truth and that it is folly to try to understand the Word without the help of the Holy Spirit"

A: Well we agree on something! Except that you seem to overlook the obvious fact that the Spirit speaks through the Church, which is why there is unity in the Church. He does not reveal doctrine to individuals directly, which is why everyone who attempts to receive such guidence ends up forming a new denomination. That's why the Word of God calls the CHURCH "the Pillar and Foundation of Truth".

"Protestant" churches of today, are all coming together in agreement with the Word of God"

A: I have yet to see any two denominations blend together and become one. Yet new denominations are formed every month. So just where does this "agreement" lie?

"We believe that there is only One Truth and it is the Word of God"

A: Yes, every denomination believes that. Trouble is, each one believes it in reference to a DIFFERENT set of "truths" - there own set of truths. Real truth cannot conflict with real truth. Conflict in beliefs means untruth.

"In our churches, the deaf hear, the lame walk, the blind see, the poor have the Good News preached to them and the dead are raised to life. Who but the Holy Spirit does these things? Tell me Paul, when was the last time that these things happened in your catholic church?"

A: These things happened in my Church for 1500 years before your tradition existed, and they continue to happen today, and will continue to happen long after denominational churches have ceased to exist, until the end of time. A person is not canonized a saint until the holy Spirit has worked confirmable miracles through the intercession of that person; and there are thousands of canonized saints. I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit is at work in your churches. Otherwise you could not be Christian. He is also calling you back to the fullness of truth.

"The occult practices condemned in this Bible passage - magic, fortune telling, divination, seances, and casting spells - are condemned even MORE strongly in sections 2115-2117 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church!" More strongly that what Paul? More strongly than the Word of God?"

A: Yes, that's correct. The Bible provides one line of condemnation, listing all of these perversions by name. The Catechism devotes an entire paragraph to each of them, explaining fully why they are incompatible with Christian truth and practice. You see, full understanding requires more than a line of scripture. That's why Jesus gave us an authoritative teaching Church.

"does the catholic church believe that God, in His infinite Perfection, in His infinite Wisdom erred, when He caused His Word to be penned to paper?"

A: Certainly not. The Church simply believes the obvious fact that the thousands of conflicting human interpretations of His Word which have been spawned by your tradition cannot be true, and therefore necessarily include a great deal of error.

"Tell me Paul do you believe the catechism is more important than God's Word?"

A: No. Though if you read it you would find that it is filled with references to God's Word, all accurately interpreted. God's Word, written and unwritten, correctly interpreted, is the SOURCE of Catholic beliefs. The Catechism is simply a compilation and explanation of pre-existing beliefs formed from God's Word. It doesn't contain anything new. It is not a source.

''According to John 11:26: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?-- Every Christian knows that our spirits never die, but our bodies do and this is what God meant in Deut 18:11-12"

A: "Exactly right! And since prayer is a spiritual activity, not a physical one, our living spirits can continue to pray and intercede for us. That's why the Christian Church has always asked the heavenly saints and angels to pray for us.

"Come now Paul, don't play games with God's Word! Male and female He created man. We have male man and we have female man. The species of man."

A: Agreed! That was exactly my point, and thank-you for making it for me again! "Man" means simply "human beings". Therefore your suggestion that "unless a man be born of water and the spirit" refers only to adults is absolutely without basis.

"This is what Jesus meant by "to such as these" it was a comparison as to the faith and trust we must have in our Father that He can do anything!"

A: Right again! It was a statement that we adults must regain that childlike faith and trust before we are ready for the kingdom. That explains why Jesus said that children are already ready for the kingdom! Because they have not lost that which we must regain.

"Pride is the root of all sin. It was the reason they disobeyed " So is pride not a sin Paul? And did it not come first?"

A: Yes it is a sin. Yes, it comes before all sin. That's why it was the root of Adam and Eve's sin of disobedience.

"The ancestors of the nation of Israel had written The Word of God down long before the catholic church came into existence, beginning with Moses. Not the catholic church".

A: Yes, of course. Only the New Covenant, the Christian Covenant, came into the world through the Catholic Church. Everyone knows that the Old Covenant came into the world through the Jews. It was however the Catholic Church which accepted the writings of the Old Covenant into the Christian Bible.

"Scripture is indeed all I have. It is in God's Word I live, I breathe, I have my being. It is all I need. It all I ever want".

A: Well, I guess you don't have much choice, do you? Since your founder rejected everything else. But you still have to deal with the observable fact that those who follow that tradition continue to divide and fragment over the interpretation of that same book. Can that be God's will?

"today in our "Protestant" churches, Baptists, Methodists, Christian Jews, Catholic and every one who comes under the banner of Christian are worshiping together"

A: That's great when it happens; but as I said before, an occasional interdenominational prayer meeting isn't a substitute for the complete unity of belief and worship which Christ said His Church would have.

"one day, while reading my bible, a catholic bible, I began to realize that we catholics were doing things contrary to God's Word"

A: Well now, that must have been a real revelation! Kind of curious though that 2,000 years of the greatest theological minds the world has ever known; the greatest scripture scholars who ever lived; and the holiest saints of all time never realized this! But YOU realized it! Whoa! Just like Luther did! Maybe you should start another manmade tradition that will cause a few thousand MORE divisions in Christianity, and move us even farther away from the Christian unity our Savior desires. Could it possibly be that the reason all these great men and women of God didn't recognize what you recognized is that they all had access to genuine interpretation of scripture, and didn't have to go on their own personal guesses, as you did??

"Now I had a choice to make. To choose God's Way or to choose the catholic way. And I choose God's"

A: So, God's way didn't exist until the 16th century? That's not what my Bible says. But do tell me - which way is God's way? The Baptist way? The Congregationalist way? The Methodist way? The Adventist way? The AOG way? The Lutheran way? There are just so many ways to choose from, once you abandon the original way. How did you decide which one was "God's way"?

"We are to live our lives by what God says in His Word"

A: Indeed! By what He says. Not by what you or I think he says. Which is why the unity of the Church and the authority of its teaching is so critical. Without it, you simply cannot find more than bits and pieces of the truth.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 06, 2003.


Italians off?

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 06, 2003.

Dear Paul, One other thing, if the catholic church compiled the bible, then where did Jesus get the scriptures to study from?

Dear Gail, No such thing as a dead Christian?! Tell me then why would God tell us not to commit necromancy Deut. 18:11 if there were no dead Christians? Keeping in mind that Christ is and was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Rv:13:8: And that Christianity existed in Christ before He ever came to the earth. And how do you explain Saul losing his life after invoking Samuel? 1 Samuel 28:3-19 & 1Chron:10:13: So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it. --And He commands us not to pray to other gods. Deut:11:16 Then He defines exactly who the other gods are. Us. His children. Ps:82:6 Jn:10:34: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? And now you're tell me "History shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Church, including such men, as Augustine, Clement, Ignatius, Jerome, Thomas Aquinas, and on and on, believed we could, and should ask ALL of our brothers and sisters for their intercession. There is no such thing as a dead Christian!" Do you thing God really cares what these men believed? He, God had already made the commandment about other gods and necromancy? Do you think that He would go back on what He said, invalidating His commands according to what men said? Do you think that it is God who should obey the commandments of men? NEVER!!! This is what God did to the men who despised and invalidated His Word 2Chron:36:16: But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy. Ps:107:11: Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most Isa:59:13: In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, SPEAKING OPPRESSION AND REVOLT, CONCEIVING AND UTTERING FROM THE HEART WORDS OF FALSEHOOD. Jer:16:11: Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law; 12: And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me: 13: Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that ye know not, neither ye nor your fathers; and there shall ye serve other gods day and night; where I will not shew you favour. Jer:19:15: Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words. Romans 1:21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; BUT BECAME VAIN IN THEIR IMAGINATIONS, AND THEIR FOOLISH HEART WAS DARKENED. 22: PROFESSING THEMSELVES TO BE WISE, THEY BECAME FOOLS, 23: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: 25: WHO CHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD INTO A LIE, AND WORSHIPPED AND SERVED THE CREATURE MORE THAN THE CREATOR, WHO IS BLESSED FOR EVER. AMEN. Gail, what great men of the catholic church believed is not what God commanded! Tell me Gail, Paul, was it these great men who saved you? Did they die for you, you children, your mother, your father, if they were alive today, would they lay their lives down for you, for yours? Were they the ones who paid with their lives the price for you salvation? NO! Absolutely, positively NO! And even if they were willing to do so God said Isa:64:6: But we are ALL as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.-- Do you realize when you believe and live your lives by what these men said you are defying the God? That you are denying the Word of God and thus betraying Christ? How dare you live your life by what men said and not what God said! Are you willing to risk you life and the lives of your children to prove that the words of man is greater than the Word of God. In these perilous time in which we live, what would you rather hold on to, the Word of God or the catechism? What would you rather have to cover you, your loved ones and friends a blue mantle of which there is no ground for existence in the Word, or the Most Precious Blood of Jesus? Keeping in mind that there is always only one choice you can make, you cannot have both. James 1:8: A double minded man is unstable in all his ways and will receive nothing from God. Blessings or cursing-- Deut:30:19: Jer:21:8: Lk:11:23: He that is not with Me is against Me: and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth.

Tell me Gail, Paul Eugene, John, if you have loved ones going to war when you kiss them goodbye are you absolutely sure that they will return home safe and alive? Did the great men of the catholic church, does history, provide protection for lives and their safe return? When you pray, or rather if you pray PS 91 are you absolutely sure that if 1,000 fall on your side and 10,000 fall on your right side that you and your loved ones will be safe, that it won't come near you? Can you pray PS. 91 without doubt and fear in your hearts? Should biological warfare come to our neighborhoods, your babies are at school, do you know for a fact that they will be still be alive when you get there? If you get there? Will you still be alive to go get them? I already know your answer. Your answer is NO! How do I know your answer is no? Two scriptures Rom:10:17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Lk:11:23: He that is not with Me is against Me: and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth. You cannot put your faith in God and put your faith in men at the same time. Mt:6:24: No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Lk:16:9: Lk:16:11: Lk:16:13:

I know but three things when it comes to the protection of my loved ones and me. 1. God loves us. 2. We are covered in the Blood of Jesus. satan can't kill us, nor can he hurt us because he can't kill and hurt the Blood! 3. We are children of the Most High God. The angels are His servants. With that in mind let me tell you what happened. This winter, early one morning, about 2 a.m. I was awakened by the people in the apartment next to ours. In our building there are only two apartments. Mine and the neighbor's. Anyway, he is banging on our front door and yelling that there is smoke pouring out of the vents of his apartment and that we should leave the building because there may be a fire. On hearing this my stomach does a flip flop BUT, I know three things when it comes to the protection of my loved ones and me. So I wake the kids, get them dressed and call the fire department. But while I am doing this, I'm praying a very simple, short prayer "Lord, I trust You, and I summon the angels of the Most High God to come and attend to this problem right now, in Jesus Name Amen." As I'm walking out of my apartment, with my husband and our kids, and my son's friend, who was spending the night, satan whispers into my ear, "Take the box with all your important documents and birth papers, so that just in case... you won't need to go file for new ones all over again." Of course it makes sense, but it goes against what I prayed and believed God for. So I walk out my door with my family. As I do this, I am shocked to see the amount of smoke just billowing out of my neighbor's bathroom, BUT, there is no smoke in the hallway, where my family and I have to pass through to get outside! Anyway I go downstairs and I wait for the fire department to arrive and take care of things. So they get there and after about ten to twelve minutes they tell me that its nothing to worry about, that it was only the boiler and that we can go back upstairs and go back to sleep. I thank them and I go back upstairs with my family. Now as I am going upstairs, I'm looking at the smoke in the neighbor's apartment, and I'm smelling the burnt oil in the air. I walk into my apartment wondering how there was no smoke in ours? I go to the window to open it, because after the excitement, I'm a bit hot and sweaty. So I open the window and I am assailed by the smell of burning oil, so I quickly close the window. Now the air outside is filled with smoke and burnt oil smell, the neighbor's apartment is filled with burnt oil smell and with smoke BUT the air in our apartment is clean, fresh and has no smell and there is no smoke in our apartment either. So as I am getting the kids back to bed I'm wondering, how...? And this is what the Holy Spirit said to me. "The Spirit of God rests on this place." All praise be to the Most High God!!! Amen and Amen!!!

Tell me do you have such assurance in your lives? I do! You have placed you faith in the words of men over the Word of God, so I know that your hearts are failing you at the prospect of war and the thoughts of your loved ones lying hurt and maimed somewhere, bleeding to death, crushed beneath tons of rubble. I know you tremble and weep at night at these thoughts. I don't

"Here's the crux, Candace, I believe Christ is big enough to keep his promises." It's all well and good for you to believe but you must OBEY HIS COMMANDS as well in order to live! Every commandment of God is a commandment of Christ which God demands, not asks, that you obey! Do not disobey the commandments of God for you own sakes! Because you have placed your faith in the words of men this is what can expect in these perilous times! Ex:5:2: Ex:19:5: Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: Deut:11:27: Deut:11:28: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known. Deut:13:4: Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and OBEY HIS VOICE, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.Deut:27:10: Deut:30:20: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: 1Sam:12:15: 1Sam:28:18 1Kgs:20:36: Then said he unto him, Because thou hast not obeyed the voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as thou art departed from me, a lion shall slay thee. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and slew him. 2Kgs:18:12: Job:36:11: If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures. Job:36:12: But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge. Jer:7:28: Jeri 9:13: And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein; 14: But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them: 15: Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink. Jer:12:17: But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD. Jer:32:23: Dan:9:11: Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. Disobedience to God's Word will lead to your destruction.

Don't tell me of "great men" who tried to invalidate God's commands and lead so many to disobey God's Word. These men are dead and I absolutely guarantee you that they in hell! Lk:11:23: He that is not with Me is against Me: and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth. If they are not with God then hell is now their resting place! These men are dead! But God lives forever more and His Word He will not change!

You need to decide which is more important to you, God's Word or catholic doctrine. See what God says about the "queen of heaven"-- Jer:7:18 Jer:44:17 Jer:44:18: Jer:44:19: Jer:44:25:-- See what He says on forgiveness, on baptism, see what He says on bowing your heads and praying before images, see what God says about everything the catholic church has deemed "right" before you go living your life by it before you go heaping up curses on your lives and your children's lives! Then Repent! Turn away from it and do it no more! Liviticus 22:31: Therefore shall you keep MY commandments, and do them: I am the LORD. Tell me, do you dare defy the Word of The Most High God? Are you trusting in flesh or in God?

Candice



-- Candice T. Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), March 07, 2003.


Hello Candace:

I don't have time to respond to all of your post because it is a beautiful day outside, PLUS I have sworn off this kind rhetorical mick-mash that only leads to more and more strife.

It sounds like from some of your post that you are being influenced by Word of Faith doctrine -- "no harm will become you, etc etc., you should be healthy and wealthy, claiming the promises of God" They tend to claim every promise in the Bible as their very own, even though the N.T. promises tribulation and suffering in this life in too-numerous-to-mention places. I spent 7 years in a Word of Faith Church so I know their theology well. Unfortunately, tragedy has hit my old church repeatedly with mysterious illnesses, bizzare accidents, sudden deaths. It is almost uncanny the tragedy that church has suffered. The pastor is a godly man who I love and respect, but he teaches "straight from the bible" that you can "speak your circumstances into existence." He even once said that in the middle of tornado, one should be able to "rebuke the winds as Jesus did." So the congregation lives in a constant state of bewilderment and disallusionment that these horrible things happen. The victims of the illnesses or tragedy are usually viewed with suspicion and fear, and hence little,if not "veiled" compassion is offered them. You are told if you are sick, "to claim your health," "pray the prayer of faith," and when it doesn't come . . . Well, it's very sad. I won't go any further into Word of Faith theology except to say that it's fruit is self-centerness. The folks live from one spiritual "high" to the next. They apply only certain scriptures to their lives, and reject the less "exciting" ones.

But anyway, you used the word "Necromancy" in your earlier post: Here is the definition from Webster's: "The art of claiming to foretell the future by alleged communication with the dead." This is prohibited by the Catholic Church, Candace.

Well, this is the last time I will post on this thread. Good luck to you Candace, in your effort at finding the truth.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 07, 2003.


Dear Paul, Gail, Eugene, Ed, everyone here at the forum,

While it has been interesting here at the Catholic forum, I just want you to know that I aired for God's Word for one reason and one reason only. I realize that the forum is on the internet and viewed by thousands, perhaps millions and my intent was not to condemn anyone but simply to take the focus off catholic traditions which are not scripture and which contradict the Word of God and place it where it belongs. On the Word. And while I may not have been able to convince you that God's Word is what that matters, or to pick up your Bible and really begin studying it, asking the Holy Spirit to lead you to Truth, I know I have convinced at least one Catholic to do so and to make the choice as I and thousands of other Catholics around the world are also doing everyday, to put God's Word first and to live his and her life according to the Word only.

That done I bade you God's blessings and a pleasant goodbye.

-- Candice T. Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), March 07, 2003.


Dear Candice,

It is precisely because God's Word matters that we are Catholic. You need to decide which is more important to you, God's Word or manmade tradition. God bless you in your quest. May He guide you gently home some day.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 07, 2003.


Jmj

Hello, Candice. I have not had time to read this whole thread, but I did read your last message, which I found very interesting. Please allow me to comment. Your words will be in italics.

I realize that the forum is on the internet and viewed by thousands, perhaps millions and my intent was not to condemn anyone but simply to take the focus off catholic traditions which are not scripture and which contradict the Word of God and place it where it belongs.

First, I think that this thread will be seen by dozens, at most hundreds.
Next, it appears that you have been posting for a reason that is contrary to the forum's rules -- to proselytize.
Next, this is the "Catholic" forum -- with a capital "C."
Next, we don't habitually put "the focus [on] catholic traditions." So there was no reason for you to "take the focus off catholic traditions." Those things that are called "Catholic traditions" are just customs that vary from place to place and era to era. Maybe you are getting confused and intend to refer to "Sacred (or Apostolic) Tradition," which we do focus on sometimes. But you shouldn't want to take the focus off Sacred Tradition, because it is the Word of God and the Bible tells us to believe and spread it. By trying to take the focus off Sacred Tradition, you would go against God's will.

... catholic traditions ... are not scripture and ... contradict the Word of God ...

True, traditions (customs) are not scripture. No one ever claimed that they were scripture (nor God's word).
"Sacred Tradition" is also not scripture. No one ever claimed that it is scripture. However, Sacred Tradition never "contradict[s] the Word of God." It could not possibly do so, because it IS the Word of God -- i.e., that portion of God's revelation that was not written down by the Apostles, but was handed on orally.
[I'm puzzled, Candice. Haven't you already read these things numerous times here at the forum?]

... I may not have been able to convince you that God's Word is what matters ...

You didn't have to convince us. We already believed it. Who falsely told you that we didn't?

... I may not have been able to convince you ... to pick up your Bible and really begin studying it ...

You didn't have to convince us. We already read the Bible and study it. Who falsely told you that we don't? In fact, Catholics wrote the New Testament, and Catholics are the only Christians that believe no error at all in their official interpretation of the Bible.

... I may not have been able to convince you ... to ask the Holy Spirit to lead you to Truth ...

You didn't have to convince us. We already do pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance. Who falsely told you that we don't?

I know I have convinced at least one Catholic to do so and to make the choice as I and thousands of other Catholics around the world are also doing everyday, to put God's Word first and to live his and her life according to the Word only.

It sounds as though you are saying that you lured a Catholic into the errors of Protestantism? How sad! May God forgive you. That person is no longer able to received the Body and Blood of Jesus.
But you are right to say that "thousands [no, millions] of ... Catholics around the world are ... everyday ... put[ting] God's Word first ...". Yes, millions do this by starting their day with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass -- at which they hear the "God's Word first" and they receive "God's Word" (Jesus) into their bodies.
Yes, as you said, each Catholic "live[s] his or her life according to the Word only" -- the Eternal Word, Jesus Christ.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 07, 2003.


Dear John, You said,

"Unfortunately, in the 1520s, one of the first protestants decided to remove seven books from the Old Testament, because some of them contained support for doctrines that he did not want to believe nor teach to those who followed him into heresy.-- J. F. Gecik January 14, 2001. "

I wonder, why is it that the O. T. and the N. T. always refer or quote each other, back and forth all the time. And how is it that in all of these quoted scriptures, how is it they, the O. T. and the N. T. never, ever, ever, quote from Tobit, Judith, The first and second books of Maccabees, Baruch and what were the others?... They aren't even quoted in the Book of Revelation. Hmm... I wonder if God... Jesus... the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing when He left these books out? Perhaps He... made a... mistake? What do you think John?

-- Candice T. Mohamed (ctmohamed@msn.com), April 25, 2003.


Jmj

I understand what you are trying to do, Candice, but it backfires on you. You should not try to be so "cute," because God will not be mocked.

The reason I said that it backfires is that you will find that other Old Testament books -- ones that you do recognize as God's word -- are also not quoted in the New Testament. By the faulty logic you were just trying to use against me, you would then have to eliminate those books from the Old Testament. [Don't ask me to name the books, because I didn't memorize their names when I read about this fact. You can determine their names yourself, but making a checklist and bouncing it against all the direct quotations in the New Testament.]

Besides this, there are various forms of evidence that could be offered to show you that the seven books are indeed God's word. If you actually have an open mind, folks here could present this evidence to you. However, since you have been coming here for a year or so, always attacking Catholicism and showing no evidence of an open mind, you would have to work hard to convince me that the effort would be worth it.

So, Candice, do you have the intellectual honesty to review presented facts and, having found them to be true, to discard your current erroneous beliefs?

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 25, 2003.


Dear Candice,

The OT never "quotes" the NT, since the NT writings didn't exist when the OT was written. Fewer than half the books of the OT are directly quoted in the NT, so your argument doesn't carry much weight there. The essential question is this - Did the Church have the authority to infallibly define the canon of scripture, once and for all time, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or did it not? If it did, then we must accept ALL 73 books that went into the original canon in 397 AD, as selected by God. We can't pick and choose. On the other hand, if the Church did NOT possess such authority, then there is no good reason to accept ANY of their choices as genuinely scriptural, and we can freely toss out anything we don't care for - such as the 7 OT books Luther eliminated, and the 3 NT books he tried to eliminate. It's all or nothing. If you can toss out 7, there is not good argument for keeping the rest.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 25, 2003.


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