Hi, it's me again with a question on the IIIc. I have noticed that the IIIc that I have is noticeably louder than a M4 that I also use. In fact, the IIIc sounds almost like a Nikon F3, though without the return slap of the mirror. OK, slightly softer than that, but louder than a M. Is this normal on a LTM, or is my sample in desperate need of a CLA? Otherwise it works just fine with a 50 Summitar and the first roll looks positively encouraging. Any comments on the IIIc will be much appreciated. PS. I love my M4 so much more now that I have used a LTM:)

-- Steven Fong (steven@ima.org.sg), January 05, 2001

Answers

I have both a III and IIIf, but have also shot with an M-6, M-2 and M-4P. All of the M series cameras were quieter than the SM cameras. Part of this has to do with the way the shutter woks in th older camera and the fact that there are parts that move externally on the III series. The main advantage of the TM cameras is that they are smaller, but in most situations, stay with the M4.

-- Jim Howard (jimh@bycs.com), January 05, 2001.

Steven,

I had a IIIf BD for a time. The SM leicas are louder than the M bodies, though certainly not as loud as an older Nikon F/F2, but perhaps as loud as the F3 on MLU. As Jim observed, it probably has something to do with the external moving parts.

I understand that the older III body shutter was redesigned beginning with the IIIf red dial. Maybe they made it quieter. I was told the newer shutter did not "bounce" as much as the older ones. Sometimes I could swear the image in the viewfinder bounced just a bit when I released the shutter at certain shutter speeds.

I recently sold the IIIf and 35mm and 50mm lenses to a collector. I enjoyed using it and playing around with it, it has a great tactile feel. But, in the end, I just could not get used to the extremely small viewfinder and faint rangefinder patch for actual photography. It would give me a headache after a while. And anyone who complains about loading a Leica M should try loading the SM Leicas.

The older lenses are fine, it's just that the new ones are better. The entire package is extremely compact. And if you like collecting Leica nostalgia and playing around with old mechanical things, then a SM outfit makes sense. But, for a photographer who makes a lot of images and wants the best results possible I'm afraid the SM stuff just does not cut it.

I wholeheartedly agree with your renewed appreciation of the M Leicas after having used a SM. Good luck, Sergio.

-- Sergio Ortega (s.ortega@worldnet.att.net), January 05, 2001.

Steven, LTM's I've toyed with recently at the dealers sound louder to me now than they did when I actually used one (a IIIf) some 40 years ago, until I bought my M2. In fact, they seemed alarmingly loud. I remember thinking they sounded dry & in need of lubrication. The two I toyed with recently were very old, probably they were IIIA's. I don't know for sure, but going by memory, they shouldn't be quite so loud. Definitely the IIIf was not overloud. The IIIc was completely redesigned compared to previous models, with an improved mechanism. I don't think it should be as loud as earlier models.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), January 05, 2001.

My IIIg is quieter than my IIIc, so some progress was made during those years. But neither compare to my M3-DS, so it appears there was a quantum leap in shutter quietness with the introduction of the M. Maybe is also has to do with the body construction and its ability to suppress noise vibration(?).

I enjoy using my screw mounts. But when it's time for a serious shoot I'm back to the M.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), January 05, 2001.

I agree with Sergio's analysis of the SM cameras. We can dream, but in the end one has to admit that there have been advances in technical and optical performance since the 40 and 50s say and the cameras tend not to get used in the end. Also they scratch the hell out of glasses.

-- Robin Smith (rsmith@springer-ny.com), January 05, 2001.

Get it CLA'd in any case, you'll be glad you did. A IIIc isn't as quiet as an M, but it should be pretty damn quiet.

Maybe its just me, but I don't find film loading to be a burden with either SM Leicas or Leica M.

I also think that, because of their size, the SM Leicas continue to play an important role in my photography, aside from being fun.

The 50mm f2 Summitar is my favorite LTM lens.

Enjoy the IIIC!

Joe

-- Joe Buechler (jbuechler@toad.net), January 05, 2001.

I knew I had something more on this, but I had to go through all my stuff to find it. Here it is. According to the 1961 Leica Manual, the IIIc was the first Leica to have roller bearings in the shutter mechanism. Rogliatti has it differently. He says that in the IIIc, "there was space for later installation of ball bearings in the roller shafts." Lager shows a picture of a "K" model IIIc. He says the "K" stands for Kugellager, which he says means ball bearings. His pictures show that this model has a K after the serial number, and another K stamped on the shutter curtain. According to Lager the purpose of the ball bearings was to enable the camera to work over a wider range of temperatures, as in military applications.

I got into this because I thought that the roller, or ball bearings, ought to result in a quieter shutter. The problem with proving this is that there's quite a discrepency between the Leica manual, which claims roller bearings on (presumably) all IIIc's vs. the other two sources which talk about ball bearings on only some of them.

Are there any Leica techs tuned in who actually take these things apart, and know what's in a IIIc?

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), January 05, 2001.

I have a IIIfBD and a IIIa, both overhauled a couple years ago by John Maddox (L&J Leica Repair) who did a masterful job on both including a new shutter in the IIIa and new rangefinder mirror in the IIIf. Both of these cameras have a metallic "clink" when released, almost like a little bell, unlike the muffled "tick" of an M body. I know that if someone really wanted the best body and lenses in LTM, they need look no further than the Bessa R and Voigtlander/Cosina lenses. But my LTM stuff is holding its value or appreciating, looks and feels like a piece of photographic history, and gets lots of conversations (and impromptu photo sessions) started.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), January 05, 2001.

Thanks for all the response so far. I got into the thread mount because I found a Summitar at a price I can't refuse. I had for a time considered the Bessar-R, but seeing that I have a working M4 with lenses I was reluctant to start a similar, albeit in L mount, coupled rangefinder system. So I opted for the Barnack camera, firstly to see what it was like in the early days, and also because the Barnacks are such beauty to behold (though I soon found out, quite different in use). So the IIIc came into my possesion. It is truly small compared to the M. Though rather less convenient to use than a M4 I am getting the hang of it. Good that unlike earlier IIIa and IIIb, the rangefinder and framing windows are placed close together so it is not too difficult to go from one to the other quickly. It certainly is quicker than my M4 with a 24mm lens and its shoe-mounted finder. Using the IIIc allows me to appreciate the deftness of early photographers like Capa and HCB. As for the noise level, I'll get use to it. One think that I am curious about though, since the rangefinder is magnified 1.5X, which presumably makes it an equivalent of about 75mm view, would this be good enough to use as a framewindow too for a 75mm lens? If so it would be pretty neat. Then again it is round so it may not be too useful. Any opinions?

-- Steven Fong (steven@ima.org.sg), January 05, 2001.

"One think that I am curious about though, since the rangefinder is magnified 1.5X, which presumably makes it an equivalent of about 75mm view, would this be good enough to use as a framewindow too for a 75mm lens? If so it would be pretty neat. Then again it is round so it may not be too useful. Any opinions?"

The 1.5x RF magnification gives the better effective RF base length. The effective RF base length of TM Leicas is 39mm (RF base length) X 1.5 (magnification) = 58.5mm. Seems, it is impossible to use RF window as a framewindow for a 75mm lens because of the parallax error.

As for shutter noise of IIIc-IIIf I think that if the Leica is professionally CLA’d the shutter noise isn’t noticeable. Redesigned (beginning from IIIc) Leica’s shutter is equipped with the damping mechanism for 1-st curtain which is controlled and tuned with the screw placed under the bottom cover. When shutter springs tension is regular, its axles are clean and lubricated, and the damper spring tension is tuned right too, the shutter is working very quietly, almost as M-Leica’.

To Mr. Bob Fleischman. I have owned two grey K-Leicas, which had red shutter curtain marked with the large white “K”. The only ball bearing I saw was the one placed under the rewind knob.

-- Victor Randin (www.ved@enran.com.ua), January 09, 2001.

Victor, I take it this means you've taken them down and looked at the mechanism. No ball bearings in a "K"? That makes me wonder where these authors get some of their information, and how much of it is reliable. What about the roller bearings mentioned in the Morgan & Morgan Leica manual? These sorts of discoveries make me appreciate this discussion group a little more everyday.

Regards,

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), January 09, 2001.

i dont know if its normal or not but butter can do wonders...

-- grant (g4lamos@yahoo.com), January 09, 2001.

Bob, I am afraid that I could pass other ball bearing off when taking down partly the “K” that time (1978). This weekend I have a meeting with the Leica IIIc-K’ owner to clarify if there any ball bearing is in a K-shutter. Then you will be informed.

Thanks and regards.

Victor

-- Victor Randin (www.ved@enran.com.ua), January 11, 2001.

I have a IIIg that I use almost exclusively. It is a little louder than the M4 I used to use, but the small size more than makes up for this (for my purposes). I did cheat though, and a year ago purchased the 35mm Summicron Asph that Leica brought out. Now it is a nearly perfect camera for what I use it for, candids. Very small, and unobtrusive, but with a killer lens.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), January 11, 2001.

Bob, our researches have been fruitful. We found only one ball bearing supporting the rear-curtain claw in the Leica IIIc shutter. There are five ball bearings have been found in Leica IIIc-K shutter: one- the same as above said, two for the rear-curtain shaft, two for the front-shutter shaft, plus one ball bearing is set on the rewind knob shaft. Regards.

-- victor randin (www.ved@com.ua), January 15, 2001.

Well, Victor, it appears there's some substance to at least some of the info in print. Now I wonder where the Morgan & Morgan Leica Manual got the idea of roller bearings in the IIIC? I take it you haven't found any such thing in your examinations of this model.

Regards,

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), January 18, 2001.

Bob, I can’t find any contradiction between Morgan & Lester manual, Willy Hahn, D.R. Grossmark and others Leica experts.

At a risk of telling you what you know I’d like to remind that a great many varieties of a Leica IIIc (LOOZS & LOOHW) are known to exist around, which have been manufactured from 1940 until 1951. For example, these Leicas exist in chrome, black or grey finish with black or red curtains, some of which are marked or aren't with a letter “K”, some of them do have or don't the stepped platform under the film rewind lever, some are engraved or aren't with “Heer Eigentum”, “W.H.”, “”M“, "Luftwaffen Eigentum”, some do have or don't the reference to the contract number (38078 or 38079) engraved, and so on.

I suggest that very first IIIC’s were manufactured without ball bearings at all. Then ball bearings were installed in military K- Leica IIIC’s in 1940. Late its number could be changed from six in military cameras to one in past-WWII cameras (LOOHW). It’s my suggestion only.

At least one ball bearing supporting a rear-curtain claw to enable a shutter to work over low degree range of temperatures we have found in the shutter of an obvious version of Leica IIIc (1950), and six ball bearings – in military Leica IIIc-K (1943). For me it’s hard to find a first version of Leica IIIc with serial number from 360175 until about #361000 to clarify my suggestion. I am not a collector.

“I thought that the roller, or ball bearings, ought to result in a quieter shutter.”

Above mentioned IIIc’ and IIIc-K’ shutters, which have been CLA’d and examined by me, sound identically quietly.

As it’s known a frozen shutter isn’t working. It depends on such factors as the increasing coefficient of friction of shutter parts rubbing together because of thickening of lubricants, changing of linear dimensions of heterogeneous metal parts, and the loss of elastic features of frost-bound rubberized material of curtains.

So, the use of ball bearings, antifreeze lubricants reduces the coefficient of friction to minimum and the use of special rubberizing materials for curtains makes them elastic even when it’s a hard frost. But titan curtains for a RF-camera are better, as they are sun burning proof and frost-hardly.

Regards,

Victor

-- Victor Randin (www.ved@enran.com.ua), January 19, 2001.

Bob, I can’t find any contradiction between Morgan & Lester manual, Willy Hahn, D.R. Grossmark and others Leica experts.

At a risk of telling you what you know I’d like to remind that a great many varieties of a Leica IIIc (LOOZS & LOOHW) are known to exist around, which have been manufactured from 1940 until 1951. For example, these Leicas exist in chrome, black or grey finish with black or red curtains, some of which are marked or aren't with a letter “K”, some of them do have or don't the stepped platform under the film rewind lever, some are engraved or aren't with “Heer Eigentum”, “W.H.”, “”M“, "Luftwaffen Eigentum”, some do have or don't the reference to the contract number (38078 or 38079) engraved, and so on.

I suggest that very first IIIC’s were manufactured without ball bearings at all. Then ball bearings were installed in military K- Leica IIIC’s in 1940. Late its number could be changed from six in military cameras to one in past-WWII cameras (LOOHW). It’s my suggestion only.

At least one ball bearing supporting a rear-curtain claw to enable a shutter to work over low degree range of temperatures we have found in the shutter of an obvious version of Leica IIIc (1950), and six ball bearings – in military Leica IIIc-K (1943). For me it’s hard to find a first version of Leica IIIc with serial number from 360175 until about #361000 to confirm my suggestion. I am not a collector.

“I thought that the roller, or ball bearings, ought to result in a quieter shutter.”

Above mentioned IIIc’ and IIIc-K’ shutters, which have been CLA’d and examined by me, sound identically quietly.

As it’s known a frozen shutter isn’t working. It depends on such factors as the increasing coefficient of friction of shutter parts rubbing together because of thickening of lubricants, changing of linear dimensions of heterogeneous metal parts, and the loss of elastic features of frost-bound rubberized material of curtains.

So, the use of ball bearings, antifreeze lubricants reduces the coefficient of friction to minimum and the use of special rubberizing materials for curtains makes them elastic even when it’s a hard frost. But titan curtains for a RF-camera are better, as they are sun burning proof and frost-hardly.

Regards,

Victor

-- Victor Randin (www.ved@enran.com.ua), January 19, 2001.

Victor, I guess it was the reference to roller bearings in the Leica Manual that aroused my curiosity. Mechanics really isn't my line, but I think of roller bearings as very heavy load-bearing devices, as in Timkin Tapered Roller Bearings used in diesel locomotives. Do they have any place in such a delicate mechanism as a Leica shutter? Of course I know they would be smaller than the ones in the locomotives!

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), January 19, 2001.

Bob, there are all ball bearings, not roller bearings, in the Leica IIIc-K shutter. Two ball bearings installed in two narrow rollers for 2 ribbons of the front curtain, two ball bearings are installed in the wide roller (drum) for the rear curtain, and one ball bearing is supporting the rear-curtain claw. All 5 ball bearings are set on the shutter shaft to reduce its friction in the rotation.

Regards,

Victor

-- Victor Randin (www.ved@enran.com.ua), January 22, 2001.