For something different:

Does anyone have any personal experience (or wild rumors, given the board :-) ) with the .32 Tomcat? I've been thinking about getting the wife one for ducks, but don't know how reliable they are. Also, (now I know this is asking a lot) does anyone know how many inches of ordinance gelatin a .32 (say Winchester Silvertip) will penetrate?

Thanks,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 29, 2000

Answers

Minimum defense caliber in my opinion is 9mm. All a .32 will do is piss somebody off. If you insist on the Beretta, look at Corbon ammunition. It is rather expensive but maximizes the .32 caliber.

As far as ducks.... buy a shotgun.... : )

For reference, my defense caliber is .45 Super, the wife, .357 magnum...

sniffin' the Hoppes #9...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), December 29, 2000.

Frank:

I own and shoot a Beretta Tomcat. TheDog here is full of shit. This is a very real weapon. However, it is intended for close range, lacking much of a sight.

I personally find it uncomfortable, because I have large hands and this is a pocket pistol. It's also kind of expensive. But as a backup gun it's fine, small and fairly light. I keep it filled with Hydrashok ammo, but I've never done any ballistics or gelatin testing with it. Still, I can guarantee it's not just a prop you hope will scare someone off.

(Incidentally, this "bigger is better" syndrome is simple minded. Two gunmen accosted a candidate for the Olympic shooting competition on his way home from practice, and he killed them both with one shot each. He was using a .22 target pistol! Shot placement is more important than caliber. Practice!)

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), December 29, 2000.

Frank, up untill about 2 years ago I packed a .25 cal. Davis derringer thinkin that would be good personal protection. Than an ex-cop told me that one time he shot a felon 4 times in the mid-torsal with a 38 before he even dropped to his knees. He advised me to throw that peashooter away and get something bigger. So I bought a used Colt 1911 semiauto 45. Since than I've purchased a Baby Eagle 40 cal. and a Ruger Vaquaro 44 mag. Nothin beats that 45 for balance and oneshot knockdown firepower. The military packed it in 5 wars and it has proved itself over and over. Mags penetrate to much flesh and too many walls in the opinion of the cop. Get a concealed permit and check adjoining states for their specific laws.

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), December 29, 2000.

(rant on)

Hey Flint,

Why do you tell us how you REALLY feel. As far as shot placement is concerned, I can be a "little off", and considering the tension of a stressful situation where a gun would be needed, this is very likely, and a "little off" with a .45 Super is like a COM hit with a .32.

By the way Flint, I have been in a situation like this, have you? All the training in the world at self-defense does NOT prepare you for the real thing, and the more artillery you can bear, the better off you are, as precise aiming WILL get you killed.

Frank, do what you need to do. A .32 will get the job done, as will a .22 LR. You just have to be a damn good shot. Practice point and fire exercises.

One more thing, the best .32 caliber hollow point bullet in the world will only expand to just shy what a .45 bullet is unexpanded (.451). Where as I have .45 bullets that have expanded through ballistic gelatin to .78". Yes, a bigger hammer is better, no matter what 'Flint'stone says.

(rant off)

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), December 29, 2000.

Dog,

My wife shoots a .38 (and very well, I might add) but won't carry it due to its size. Hence the Tomcat idea. We tend to avoid potentially dangerous situations, so I doubt that she'll ever need it, but that's the whole point of preparation, isn't it? I looked at the mini-frame .38s, but didn't find any that floated my boat, so to speak.

On the ducks :-)

Flint,

I wouldn't be shooting it really, and my wife has small hands. I know what you mean though, I felt like I was engulfing the dang thing when I was looking at it.

In a sense I agree with you about caliber, in that one well placed shot from a easily controllable small caliber arm is much more effective then a wild shot from a .44 mag, but at the same time, I seem to remember reading the FBI saying one should look for ~18 inches of gelatin penetration to assure one would hit vital organs - assuming someone was wearing thick clothes, had their arm in front of them, etc (I doubt if I could find a source on that though, ((or even if it's true)) it's been long enough to where my memory's hazy on it).

It's a decision, but my goal again is a small, ladylike firearm that can do a good job in short range self-defense. At this point, it seems to fit the bill, especially with the tip-up barrel.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 29, 2000.

Boswell & Dog,

We posted at the same time, I think.

Again, this is for my WIFE. Although to be honest, I'm wondering about the whole caliber issue myself. My concealed carry is a S & W 686 (seven shot 357 revolver). I like the revolver due to its reliability, and even should you have a dud, all you need to do is pull the trigger again. If I need more than seven shots, I'm probably in trouble anyhow.

Where I was going with this: I notice for myself that when I'm plinking .38s through it, I don't need to think much for good accuracy, but with the .357s I need to concentrate more on shot placement. I guess I'm looking to find the MINIMUM caliber I think will do the job reliably.

One other thing. I bought a crimson trace grip for the 686, and I would HIGHLY recommend this for a self-defense gun. After sighting them in, you don't even need to aim, just point & shoot.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 29, 2000.

Frank, my wife packs the Magnum Research Baby Eagle 40 cal made in Israel in a fanny pack. It is compact, fairly light and user friendly. It has a decocker safety which allows you to keep the 9th round in the chamber with the hammer down. It's recoil is not what you might expect and I can't buy her enough ammunition because she shoots it up when she goes to the range. It works as a double action when the safety is off and single action otherwise. All in all it makes a fine handgun for smaller fingers.

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), December 29, 2000.

Flint,

Shot placement IS important, but enough power to stop a perpetrator is equally important. If a man high on meth or crack were coming at YOU with the idea of causing you great bodily harm, would you want to unload five .22 LR bullets into his chest, or would you rather fire five .32 bullets into him? Taking this a step further, would you rather fire five .32 bullets into him, or five 9mm bullets into him?

At some point we must draw the line at what caliber becomes unwieldly, but I believe that a person should be carrying the largest caliber with which they are comfortable.


The Dog,

With what I just posted to Flint in mind, maybe the .32 Tomcat is the largest caliber Mrs. Frank can carry comfortably. If that is so, I believe that a .32 Tomcat is better than a kitchen knife. [Tanny, where are you? : ) ]

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), December 29, 2000.

Wow Flint,,,BIGG hands ya say? ROLFLMAO.

-- KKK meeting intruder (cantmaketh@sstuffup.net), December 29, 2000.

Citizens should never carry a weapon out of sight or anytime. Because it insights riots and brings out the bad side in people. Talking about these guns is very disturbing because we are headed towards disarming people that want to kill and this talk just insights that side of some people who want to keep guns forever.

-- Tanny (MissT@newsome.net), December 29, 2000.

Frank,

Again, 9mm. (.355") is what I would consider minimum. A Kahr K9 is a very good small 'nine, as is any of the mini Glocks. Recoil is not an issue with 9mm., so second shot capability is good.

As far as a revolver is concerned, I like the Ruger SP101 5-shot mini- revolver in .357 magnum. When I conceal carry (illegal here in NM but I do so anyway sometimes) it is my weapon of choice. Get some .38 Special +p Federal Hydroshoks for it. It is about the same size as a S&W J-frame, and 2/3rds the price. It conceals well.

There are no easy answers to this line of questions. Just do what you think is right, and learn as much as you can.

There is good sources of information on the web:

www.thefiringline.com

glocktalk.com

www.recguns.com

I hope this helps...

scratchin' an itch,

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), December 29, 2000.

Frank:

Understand that I actually carry a .45 most of the time. The .32 is there because the .45 is relatively big and heavy, more tiring to carry and more difficult to conceal. It won't just drop into my pocket. Sometimes you need to trade stopping power for availability at all. A .45 at home in the closet isn't much help when you need it. My wife carries a .40 (a bit larger and heavier than my .45!) and has no problem with it. She also shoots competitively and practices a LOT.

Tanny:

Insight is what you *need*. The word you are looking for is "incite". Uh, people all around you are carrying guns you can't see. How many riots have you started (or joined) as a result? I'd suggest, when your fantasy doesn't fit the facts, that the facts are probably more valid. But you'll have to think *real hard* before you understand this, I'm afraid.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), December 29, 2000.

Tanny,

Because it insights riots and brings out the bad side in people.

No, it doesn't incite riots, in fact where concealed carry permits are introduced, the crime rate decreases. Besides, you can't GET a concealed carry permit if you're a criminal, and you don't have anything to fear from a law abiding citizen.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 29, 2000.

Tanny,

"An armed society is a polite society."

You said:

"Citizens should never carry a weapon out of sight or anytime. Because it insights riots and brings out the bad side in people."

Now does that include criminals? If so, then I agree. Now just tell them to "stop it", and I won't carry mine concealed anymore. (snicker)

You know that is funny you say it 'insights riots'. I was going to the range a few months back and I normally wear my tactical holster without my .45 in it to the convienience store to get some refreshments before going to practice. Well, I must have been thinking about something else because I got out of the truck and went inside with the .45 holstered, which is illegal because they sell liquor at all stores here in NM, but open-carry is legal (go figure). I guess I was an imposing sight for some of the other patrons because they left very quickly. Not knowing what they were looking at I continued to shop for my refreshments. The clerk, when I came to the counter was actually laughing out loud, (he is a friend of mine) when I approached with my items, at the scared 'rabbits' leaving at a prodigious rate.

As far as 'bringing out the bad side of people', that is bunk. there are millions of concealed weapons permits in the US. How many crimes are committed by people with concealed weapons permits? The last figures I read, which I think was for 1998, was like less than .01%. That year, TWO people with permits committed crimes. How does that add up to all the gun crimes in 1998??

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". And everyone else will be sheep...

You show me how to get the guns out of criminal's hands and I will consider changing my stance on the matter. The police are NOT required to protect you even if their motto is "to protect and to serve". There are numerous court cases on the books that uphold that the cops are not responsible for your safety. Therefore, I arrange my own...

My personal feeling on concealed carry is that is should be legal EVERYWHERE, but the requirements for a permit should be very strenuous and difficult to obtain. I feel that a lot of crime would reduce significantly if this were the law because the criminals would not know who is armed and who is not.

Granny with the big purse would not look to be as good a target if there might be a chance of a Glock being in the purse.

(donning my flame-proof underwear)

hidin' in the closet...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), December 29, 2000.

Guns will be illegal and they will be taken away. Then you won't have to sleep with and worship them. The world will be safer anyway. The nuclear age has replaced gunpowder so we won't have to worry about our futures. Only pray that our sins will be forgiven and that is the secret of taking down an armed criminal. Pray for him and yourself and he will drop that weapon because he will see that you are sincere. Don't put any faith in the bullet because it might bounce back and hit you.

-- Tanny (MissT@newsome.net), December 29, 2000.

Tanny,

You definitely have the "rose-colored glasses" on...

(snicker)

stalkin' the cat...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), December 29, 2000.

Jeez you guys, Tanny is a troll looking to get a rise out of you, not even a very good troll at that.

Dog,

I gotta agree with you, I own both the SP101 in .357 and a "mini" Glock 30 (.45 cal) and love em both. Since I too have big hands I've replaced the stock 101 grips with Hogue combat grips that really fit the gun and my hand very nicely. The Glock of course needs nothing, since it is perfection.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), December 29, 2000.

Unk D,

I agree with you about the trolling, but hey I like to rag with the best of them every once in awhile...

growlin' at the sheep...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), December 29, 2000.

My preferred pocket piece is a small frame Kel Tek 9 mill(semi),very good stopping power in a smaller package.I use it in a biz setting where I can put it in my pocket,undetectable,if 75% of my patrons were to know that there was a gun around they would be quite uncomfortable,so discretion is very important.But safety comes 1st,this piece will do the job if needed but is small enough for the wife to use easily also.Just my 2¢.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), December 29, 2000.

OK, get ready to chuckle. My pocket piece is a S&W 940. Little hammerless five shot was so popular that production stopped almost as fast as it started! Still my others are 9's and this keeps it simple.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), December 29, 2000.

"Tanny is a troll"

So now Tanny is a troll because she doesn't agree with you metal- packing mother f**ckers? Does everyone have to agree with you (deedah the dick) on this forum?

-- (S@me time.same place), December 29, 2000.

From one Dick tater to another - of course.

-- (S@me place.same time), December 29, 2000.

No, Tanny is a troll because she is both incoherent and illiterate. If you wish to disagree, don't you think you should make a sensible argument? I personally suspect Tanny is a parody of the stupid, screeching anti-gun fanatic. Not a bad parody, either.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), December 29, 2000.

No, but it helps.

Does your mommy know that you are posting here? What I've read of your stance on this issue, and the way that you express those ideas, leads me to believe that you are a fourteen year old female.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), December 29, 2000.

That was unclear. Part two was directed to Tanny.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), December 29, 2000.

Hey Tanny, what do you think of this cat? I point out that he calls someone a troll for not agreeing and he accuses me of being a 14 year old.

WHO is acting like a 14 year old now Unk?

-- (S@me time same.place), December 29, 2000.

Pray for him and yourself and he will drop that weapon because he will see that you are sincere.

Hardly the thought process of a mature mind, eh?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), December 29, 2000.

Now I understand. It's OK to call her a troll AND a 14 year old because she expressed her views nicely.

I used to respect you Unk.

-- (S@me place.same time), December 29, 2000.

The 14 year old mentality is the one who hides behind a fake handle without a real e-mail address.

growlin' at the adolescent...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), December 29, 2000.

"one who hides behind a fake handle"

Now how the f**k do you know if Tanny's e-mail is fake? Did you try writing her? She probably wouldn't waste her time answering you back if you did.

-- (S@me time.same place), December 29, 2000.

I wasn't talking about her, I was talking about you, dickweed...

snarlin' at the idiot...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), December 29, 2000.

Tanny,

I'm going to take off now. I just wanted you to know that although I also find this an absurd statement:

>>Pray for him and yourself and he will drop that weapon because he will see that you are sincere.<<

I think it's only fair for you to say your peace. For all I know you might be fourteen but that doesn't matter. If you are, you will find out that you will run into bullies like the guys on this thread once in a while in real life and all you can do is say your peace nicely like you did this thread. Good for you babe.

-- (S@me time.same place), December 29, 2000.

OK I'll bite.

Tanny,

Keep in mind that you WILL run into bullies far WORSE than the "guys on this thread". I hope you are able to defend yourself from them, and I hope that they do indeed drop their weapons and run away when you pray at them. I doubt it, but good luck.

Me, I'd rather have something more convincing, something metal...with a hole in the end.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), December 29, 2000.

Somebody called me a troll. But a troll is an ugly little doll with fuzzy hair that you hang on your rearview for good luck. If I can disarm anybody and bring them good luck than I have done well. I am not 14 but 43. I am not married and I did go to school. I like church. Some of you have a sense of humor which is lacking in this world anymore. Let me know how you feel cause I went shopping and just got back from a friends place.

-- Tanny (MissT@newsome.net), December 29, 2000.

Unk, I've never personally tried to pray someone into dropping his weapon. However, it works really well on obscene callers. They usually hang up on me.

-- helen (b@r.f), December 29, 2000.

You guys are all packing metal in those pockets?

Damn and I thought you were just happy to see me

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), December 30, 2000.

Cin...

We are.... : )

scratchin' an itch...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), January 02, 2001.

That had BETTER be a gun in your pocket!

Your son and I are waiting...

snarling at the dog..

looking for a leash..

-- (Mrs. Dog@dog.desert), January 02, 2001.

Frank,

Do you know others that have handguns? If so, would it be possible for them to bring their guns to a range sometime so that your wife could try them out? From my female perspective, I think that she should pick the one that she feels most comfortable with. If she isn't comfortable, she won't use it.

My own personal choice is a .357 mag.

Donna

ps - dog - why were you growlin at me? ;)

-- (Sheeple@Greener.Pastures), January 02, 2001.

Sheeple,

We are fortunate to have a range that will "loan" you pistols to shoot if you purchase the ammo for it there. Unfortunately, they don't have a Tomcat or similar .32.

She has (and does very well with) a .38, but has tried the .357s and thinks they are too much. My wanting the Tomcat for her is to be more concealable than her .38, but with more "punch" than a .22. I also like their tip-up barrel, as it takes much less effort than racking a slide. You're right though, I really should just hold off until I find someone who owns one, and borrow it for a day. The best solution in the world is useless if unused.

Everyone,

Thanks for the responses.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 02, 2001.

"That had BETTER be a gun in your pocket!

Your son and I are waiting...

snarling at the dog..

looking for a leash..

-- (Mrs. Dog@dog.desert), January 02, 2001."

ROTFLMAO!

rollin' on the floor...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), January 03, 2001.

Dog,

That was really Mrs. Dog?? That is a ROFL.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 03, 2001.

No actually my wife is a cat... (SLASH!)

Everytime she gets near a computer, smoke comes out it... (snicker)

scratchin' an itch...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), January 04, 2001.

You Dog you!

I have zero problem with inter-racial marriages (oh my that Fox News' Lauren Green is sooo fine), but I must draw the line at inter-species marriage. Tsk tsk tsk.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 04, 2001.