I don't want to be hokey or anything, but this is really for Gwen. I don't know the whole story, even though I read the Gwen journal, but I know that going through a period of time when you've made the decision to move to a different town, seperate from your husband and and basically change your life completely from what it's been--yeesh, to me, I think that just takes a shitload of courage. Without going too much into it or drawing comparisons, I come from a family where my mom never really had the gumption to leave when me and my brother and sisters really really needed it and we had a pretty unahppy childhood because of it. She did eventually leave, but by the time she did, everyone was like, "Damn, it's about time!." But anyway, I think there are those periods of time in Life where courage is obvious, you know, like a fireman rescuing a family from a burning house but then there's the other times, when it's not so clear-cut. So here's to the people who have the courage to do the things in life that need to be done, whether they're recognized as courageous or not. I raise my glass!

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

Answers

*raises glass too* Clink! To Gwen.

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

I'm really proud of Gwen, and excited for her and her future.

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

I don't think Gwen realises just how much she rules. Best of luck, Gwen. I hope your kids learn to speak Spanish and eat Thai food. :)

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

Gwen, kick ass in your new job and place and everything that goes along with it! I'm happy that you say that you are happy!!

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

I think it's fantastic that Gwen had the guts to up and change her life into something that sounds like it makes her 10 billion times happier (I'm a big fan of hyperbole...what can I say?) Best of luck to you, Gwen.

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

You da woman, Gwen! You are all that and a box of Little Debbies.

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

Yeah, Gwen, we're all wishing you and your family the best. It sounds like things are on the right track, and it's so important that you are happy, because that will effect everyone around you.

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

Gwen is the second Internet acquaintance I've got who left her S.O. this year, and in each case it's seemed to me to be a huge step in the right direction. Life's too short to not be happy if there's something in your power to do about it. You deserve the best, Gwen. I hope you take your kids to the beach a lot! :-)

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

If anyone can do it, Gwen can!

Seriously, hard and scary as it is, Gwen, I know you have the capacity to handle shit like this... and come out an amazingly richer, stronger, and more fulfilled person for it, too.

Damn, that sounds like a bad Hallmark card.

But honey, I'll be thinkin' good thoughts, fwiw....

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

I wish I was as brave as Gwen. (Were as brave? Frig. Stupid grammar.)

-- Anonymous, December 30, 2000

Because I did it and never question anyone elses decision, whatever it may be and for whatever reasons...here's to you Gwenz my dear...and please, when you may be down for any reason, remember these two things.....The greatest thing in life to be learned is to love and be loved in return. And life gets pretty precious when there's less of it to waste. You're given another chance every time you wake up. Use it wisely and profit by your past. Your future is the only thing you have. And ("clink") to you Gwenz my dear, may everything turn out just the way you wanted. If there is anything....james

-- Anonymous, December 30, 2000

First, Gwen, I don't know you but I wish you well. I've read some of your story, this is my story...

My parents split up when I was 12. They fought a LOT and at first I was grateful for the quiet. But then I noticed how my stomach always hurt because I was always missing one of them. No matter how much I tried I never felt safe because one of my parents was missing. My brother had the same reaction. My parents lived apart but started going to couples counseling after hearing how torn apart my sister and I were in family counseling. It took over a year but they worked it out, moved back in together (one of the happiest days of my life) and are still together today. Most importantly, they are happy with their lives, personally and professionally.

I don't know Gwen, so I can't speak to her situation. But I get upset when I see words like "courage" and "brave" being thrown around in a divorce where there are children. Divorce shatters children. Having my parents in two houses, being shuttled back and forth was awful. I know that growing up in a bad situation can too but divorce with children involved harldy seems an occasion for celebration.

When I think about the time my parents lived apart, I have to double over and hold my stomach. All these years later it still hurts that much. I will be grateful to them until the day I die for working it out. That's not always possible, I know, but I feel like maybe I was put through that so that I could speak up for the children, so I do whenever I can.

-- Anonymous, December 30, 2000

Mary: You're right. You don't know my situation.

Thank you for your input.

Thanks to everyone else for the support.

-- Anonymous, December 31, 2000

Wait, I have more to say...

Even my longtime readers admit that they don't know the whole story. Of course they don't. I haven't put the whole story on my site. My site was always about me only. It was a distraction from my problems and a way to build some self-esteem for myself.

Mary, you are exactly right when you say that you can't "speak to" my situation. You really, really can't. I've been in my "situation" for ten years now, and I think I know it better than you. I've spent YEARS trying to "work it out." It's not going to happen. I'm not going to waste my life anymore.

If you don't think I'm brave or courageous, that's fine. I never said I was. But please don't come to my forum and try to give me a guilt trip. I don't want to hear that from my "friends" or family, and I certainly don't want to hear it from a complete stranger. You aren't "speaking up" for my children, because you don't know anything about them or what they're going through.

Maybe you and the others who feel the need to make me feel guilty can start an anti-divorce support group on your own site or something. I know you (probably) aren't trying to be rude, but your condescension grates on me just the same.

Please keep your negative comments to yourself.

-- Anonymous, December 31, 2000

Geez, Mary, give it up. Your negative comments are unwelcome here.

-- Anonymous, December 31, 2000

Yeah, gee Mary, nothing's healthier for the kids than parents who are unhappy yet stay together out of a sense of obligation to them. I've seen it. It ain't pretty.

I thank God my mom finally divorced my stepfather. Staying with him when he was an abusive asshole because she thought her children needed a father, was afraid of divorcing (again), afraid of the stigma, of the financial burdens, of the emotional upheaval, of being on her own... none of that was worse that the trauma me and my brother experienced living with parents who were miserable, fought constantly, and basically just tore each other apart.

I'm not saying Gwen's husband is an abusive asshole... but if she and he are unhappy together, believe me, the kids know it. Having parents who're together but miserable isn't healthy for anyone. Parents divorce. The kids'll deal. It's not fun, it's not easy, but they'll deal.

-- Anonymous, December 31, 2000

I think what Mary needs to hear is something no one is telling her: Gwen never left her kids.

I actually think it's kind of cool that Mary came here to ask about the issues she brought up, because these were similar issues I asked Gwen about myself. I just happened to be fortunate enough Gwen didn't feel cornered at the time that I asked these things. I don't know if I'm betraying Gwen's trust here, but hopefully Mary's curiosity (which, considering the public nature of the issues involved, I think is understandable) will be satisfied with the following facts:

• Gwen never chose to leave her husband or her kids.
• You can count on encouraging negative behavior if you reward it.

My hope is to demonstrate the distinction between the situation Mary brought up, and what I think Gwen would mention herself, if she didn't feel cornered right now. Life is a lot like those airplane safety unstructions that tell you that you can't help a child in an emergency if you don't secure your own oxygen first, and I think this situation is more like this, than what Mary has in mind. If I've crossed some kind of line in interfering here, someone (who won't put me in a position to testify against them in federal court) please let me know.

-- Anonymous, December 31, 2000

Gwenz rules! But Mary has a valid opinion like the rest of us. Yes she doesn't know Gwenny's situation, but she none the less has the chance to share her opinion with the rest of us. I hate to see someone get jumped on here just for an opinion. Gwenz will do what Gwenz must to solve her situation and if she needs anyones help, she will get it. There are many roads to any destination. Mary went one way and Gwenz will go hers. If Gwenz is as smart as I think she is then she will be just fine. Life ain't easy but it can teach us to be strong. And if we look around us we will see that we all made it more or less. You don't get through life without having to pack your bags occasionally. Love ya Gwenz. James

-- Anonymous, December 31, 2000

I was 11 when my parents separated and then divorced. I am a living testament to the fact that divorce does not shatter children. Parents have it in their power to either f**k up children's lives or not; but just sheer divorce, even with young or adolescent children, does not, by itself, have to be a bad thing.

-- Anonymous, December 31, 2000

It's one thing if a longtime poster on these boards voiced his/her differing opinon. It is another when a total stranger feels the need to pipe up to voice her dissatisfaction of the woman whose boards we are using at the time.

It's kind of like someone in the grocery store overhearing a conversation you are having with a friend and feeling the need to give you advice. You never asked for it, and it is rude.

-- Anonymous, December 31, 2000

Gwen, I think what you did was obviously well thought out and not a decision made in haste. You are a smart, wonderful woman and I wish you the best. Your living situation doesn't make you any less of a mother. You have to make yourself happy, in order to be able to make your children happy. I'm damn proud of you! Yaaaaaaaaay, Gwennie!

-- Anonymous, December 31, 2000

Gwen,

Only you know what is best for you and your kids, and for your happiness. Do what you need to do, for you, and don't let negative people like Mary bum you out. I grew up in a unhappy home and my folks divorced after we all grew up--and like another post says here, it was way past time. You have my full support, no matter what!!!!

A former trailer-trash wife, Sunny

-- Anonymous, December 31, 2000

Firstly, no one ends a marriage on a whim. Breaking up a marriage is the last resort. People generally don't do it for kicks, and would usually rather not have to endure the pain, if there was any other way around it. I'm talking about real people here, not Hollywood celebrities.

Secondly, if the fact that your parents split up briefly then got back together when you were a kid still causes you to "double over" with stomach pain as an adult, then I think your childhood was pretty rosy. I'm not going to get into a pissing match about who had a crappier childhood, but if that was the worst thing that happened to you, then I think you should get over it. Some of us had real trauma and horrible (not to mention illegal) things happen to us. Life goes on, you learn to deal. If parents split but they still love and nurture their kids, but from separate households, that's a pretty good outcome.

I've known Gwen for a while and I've met the father of her kids. They're both nice people and I only wish the best for both of them. I hope they both find happiness so that they can go on being terrific parents for their kids. Unhappy parents are not good for kids.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Nobody ever understands what happens between a couple and it is illogical to assume one does. It takes a strong person to decide to live alone after ten years of co-dependency and offspring, for whatever the reasons are. Your life has taken a different road, Gwen, and who knows what will happen? You and your husband have changed your destinies. Good luck, and Happy New Year!

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2001

Gwen, I know the New Year is going to hold great things for you...I have no idea about your situation (as others have also said) but I do know I was really glad that my unhappy parents divorced. I also see my aunt who continued to remain in an awful marriage for her daughter, and now her daughter can be a very jaded jerk, and frequently mentions that she hasn't seen anyone who's happy. That's the pits. *** I do miss your chatty posts, but I know you're busy doing the career thing.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2001

I'm reminded of something that Margaret Atwood wrote in one or another of her numerous books. She was talking about a character finding out, when she had long been an adult, that her mother would choose to be an archeologist in another life. The character was taken aback at this because it had never entered her mind that her mother would have choosen to be something other than what she was -- the character's mother. "We are all such thumb-suckers when it comes to mothers."

There's a really basic truth in that. I recall in cringing shame how badly I reacted when my mom (when I was in grade eight and my siblings were both also in school) went to work outside the home. I was livid and angry that she would ever want to do something other than hang around waiting for us to return from school. And I told her so.

As an adult an a parent I'm more than grateful that my mom didn't give into my quite unreasonable demands to do what I thought would have made me happy at the moment. Even though things turned out as predicted and I wound up with a more hefty share of the chores (as did my dad and my siblings).

She set this tremendous example that being a good parent and a loving parent didn't mean erasing oneself to be the resident family slave.

It's so much easier as a kid to think that what you want for a mother is a person who gives into your every whim and wish no matter what it costs them. Who doesn't exist much outside the realm of 'mom'.

The changes over the next few years were tremendous. Not only did my mom seem much happier (having her 'own' money was a huge part of this even though my father had never felt that it was 'his' money before or anything), but the rest of us changed a lot too. We learned to shift for ourselves. We grew up a lot and not in that hushed over- dramatic way you hear the phrase about children forced into adult situations before their time. I mean that we found out we could do crap for ourselves. Like cook and make plans and clean up when we wanted things neat and tidy.

And this is a big feminist issue for me. I want both my kids (a boy and a girl) to grow up with the strong impression that mothers especially have the right to look out for their dreams and happiness. For obvious reasons I want my daughter to believe she has that right and I want my son to understand that that's not something only a single sex deserves.

I've taken this way off into another direction, but I do want to close with how much I like and admire Gwen. Good for you. Good for you going after what you want and making things happen. Your kids are not only going to 'understand' this later on, but I know that they're going to draw on this example when their tempted to just shut- up and make themselves invisible for a while. They won't give in. Because they'll know how much it's worth to take a strong hard stance and become who they want to be.

Much love and good wishes.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2001

Gwen's kids will be just fine. Both parents are in their lives as well as their grandparents. I think it takes a lot of strength to do what Gwen did. Gwen is a great mom. I love Gwen.

I think kids tend to get fucked up when the parents are bickering in front of them or they stick the kids in the middle and use them as pawns.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2001

Gwen, you rock. You have my support. No one knows what really goes on between a couple cept the two people involved. I admire the strength you have to do what needs to be done for the good of the long run. Follow your own heart and do not let naysayers get you down! You'll always find more people who support you than not. And your kids will love you no matter what. Be there for them (as I know you are) and they will turn out just fine.

-- Anonymous, January 04, 2001

I don't know Gwen but I've had the pleasure of lurking at her site and enjoying her journal and of course wish her well in this new chapter of her life. My parents stayed together for "the sake of the children" and of course we weren't stupid- we never for a moment doubted their love for US, but even as children we could see they weren't good for EACH OTHER. The best piece of advice my mother gave me when Michael was born was "Don't make your kids your life, because they grow up and they leave you and then you don't know who you are. It's not fair to them and it's not fair to you." She thought she'd always be wife and mother and that was all she had to be. I'm happy to say they're now divorced (finally!) and my dad has remarried and seems happy with his new life and my mom has been able to rediscover herself and is having fun doing so. Best wishes, Gwen.

-- Anonymous, January 04, 2001

The best piece of advice anyone ever gave me was from my mother. After watching my unhappiness and then watching me beat myself up over wanting to end my marriage for a couple of years, she told me this: "Honey, if you move out and later you change your mind, you might move back in. And if you file for divorce and you change your mind, you might call it off. And even if you get divorced, and you think it was the wrong decision, you might get remarried." Those words knocked me for a loop, because they reminded me that few things are permanent and un-eraseable (did I misspell that?).

Ending a marriage is tough, but almost everyone survives and becomes stronger...even happier. Divorce is hard on kids, but they get over it and sometimes find insight into their parents that maybe they wouldn't have had otherwise. My parent's divorce made me look at each of them in an entirely different light, which later I believe enabled me to become best friends with my mother now. She's a happier woman now, Dad is a happier guy now, both step-parents are happier now, and my divorce allowed me happiness.

I know very few people well enough to speculate on whether or not their marriage is a good situation for them and their children or a bad thing, and as much as I love reading her work, Gwen doesn't fit into that small circle of folks. She knows her children and her husband better than any one else, so I'm sure she knows exactly what she's doing. But I recognize that happiness in freedom in her journal writing and it makes me want to jump up and do a cheer for her or pick up the phone and say "Yay! I know, it's great to choose happiness!" because those are still the same feelings I have every day.

Shit, I didn't mean to write a novelette. There's my 2 cents, worth less than even that. I guess the coolest thing is that there is a big group of strangers and friends cheering her on and wishing hard for her happiness. Surely, all that positive energy has to help somehow.

-- Anonymous, January 04, 2001

It really does, Robyn. Thanks, y'all. It lightens the load to know that people I respect have faith in me.

-- Anonymous, January 06, 2001