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Published Thursday, December 28, 2000, in the Miami Herald

Blacks' votes were discarded at higher rates, analysis shows BY ANDRES VIGLUCCI, GEOFF DOUGHERTY AND WILLIAM YARDLEY aviglucci@herald.com

In nearly all of Florida's majority-black precincts, presidential ballots were invalidated at higher rates than in mostly white neighborhoods in the Nov. 7 election, a Herald analysis of the state's uncounted ballots shows.

The analysis -- the first to examine precinct-by-precinct trends -- shows that the lopsided loss of black votes occurred throughout Florida and not just in widely publicized instances in Palm Beach and Duval counties.

The study found that poor and less-educated voters of all races were more likely than better-off voters to spoil their ballots. However, Florida's balloting problems affected blacks in greater measure.

The analysis also points to a potential solution: Discard rates for all groups, including blacks, were minimal in precincts where electronic machines scan fill-in-the-oval ballots and immediately alert voters to botched ballots so they can correct them.

Those precinct scanners are critically important, the analysis shows. The optical-scan systems in counties that lack the error-notification feature had discard rates that were higher than in punch-card counties, where the now infamous hanging chad caused so many problems.

THE FINDINGS

Florida's patchwork of punch-card machines and optical-scan systems clearly hurt some voters more than others on Election Day, the study found:

Ballots in majority-black precincts were discarded at a rate three times higher than those in non-black precincts. Nearly one in every 10 ballots in majority-black precincts went unrecorded. In majority-white precincts, the discard rate was less than one ballot in 38.

Eighty-two percent of Florida's 463 majority-black precincts had discard rates above the statewide average of about 3 percent. By contrast, 41 percent of majority-white precincts had higher-than-average discard rates.

Ballots in precincts with high poverty were discarded at a rate nearly double that of better-off precincts.

Voters in precincts with lower educational attainment spoiled their ballots at a rate 1 1/2 times that of other precincts. Some experts say the unequal effects on black voters could leave Florida's voting system open to challenges under the federal Voting Rights Act, which prohibits government practices that -- intentionally or not -- dilute minority voting.

The NAACP has said it is contemplating a Voting Rights lawsuit. Experts say such a suit might seek to force the state to mandate and help pay for a uniform, state-of-the-art system across Florida.

``Many African Americans are upset over what happened in Florida, and as your data points out, with some reason,'' said Louis Seidman, an expert on voting rights at Georgetown University Law School. ``I wouldn't be at all surprised to see litigation along these lines.''

SEVERAL FACTORS

The balloting disparities were magnified on Election Day by a surge in black turnout that brought to the polls tens of thousands of new or infrequent voters, who are more likely to make mistakes, said David Bositis, senior political analyst at the Washington, D.C.-based Joint Center for Political Studies, which studies issues of concern to minorities.

The problem was compounded by a ballot crowded with 10 presidential candidates, Bositis said, because such long lists make voter errors more likely.

Some local ballot designs led to even more errors, the analysis found: At least 14 counties broke up the presidential candidates into two columns or spread them over two ballot pages -- and had discard rates twice that of the other counties.

The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights will hold a series of hearings in Florida early next year that will focus in part on how black voters fared under the state's voting systems.

The Herald analysis indicates they started off at a disadvantage. The study looked at precinct returns and demographic data for all but three of Florida's 67 counties.

For one thing, a higher proportion of black voters than white voters live in 24 counties that use error-prone punch-card machines. More than half of Florida's black voters are concentrated in five large urban counties, including Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach, that use punch-card systems.

Conversely, blacks are slightly less likely than white voters to live in the 25 counties equipped with optical-scan readers that alert voters to errors -- the places that had the lowest discard rates in the state.

Those machines, which read fill-in-the-oval ballots at the precincts, are typically programmed to return the card if a voter marks more than one candidate in a race. In some places, the machines also return the ballot if they fail to register a vote in a race.

When these electronic readers are used in predominantly black areas, the discard rate drops to 3 percent, the analysis found. In contrast, the discard rate for blacks is 16 percent when they use scanning systems without the correction feature and 11 percent for punch-card machines.

DUVAL PROBLEMS

Nowhere was the trouble with punch cards more obvious than in Duval County in North Florida, where confusing instructions appear to have played a large role in the invalidation of 22,000 ballots for double-voting -- about 9,000 of them from majority-black precincts.

In fact, 19 of the 20 precincts with the highest spoilage rates in the state were heavily black neighborhoods in Duval, the analysis found. All had at least a fifth of their ballots tossed out. Elections officials blamed first-time voters and ``people who didn't follow directions.''

Tiny Bradford County, a mostly rural place that is home to Florida State Prison in Starke, has a more-modern fill-in-the-oval system. But voters don't get a chance to correct errors because the ballots from its 20 precincts are read at a central location, not precincts.

In Bradford's Precinct 7, where two-thirds of voters are black, 88 ballots out of 464 cast were not counted. That is 19 percent of the total, a figure that Elections Supervisor Terry Vaughan said worries him.

``I don't want anyone to think there was any systematic way that any group was targeted. There is nothing sinister going on. But we need to figure out why this happened and come up with a solution,'' he said.

ERROR NOTIFICATION

Some counties have already hit on one.

In Brevard County's Precinct 98, where 95 percent of voters are black and two-thirds of school-age children are poor enough to qualify for free school lunches, the discard rate was only about two votes out of every 100. Scanners at all Brevard precincts return double-punched ballots to voters.

Brevard replaced its old punch-card system with the optical-scan machines about 18 months ago, said Gayle Graham, assistant supervisor of elections.

``Absolutely it's better. The voter isn't being disenfranchised if he makes a mistake,'' Graham said.

Some experts and many elections officials believe counties have an ethical obligation to make voting as simple as possible for voters, which may mean using systems like the scanners that alert voters to mistakes and lending extra assistance to those who need it.

``The fundamental problem is we have a history of discouraging people from voting and that history is very clear,'' said Henry Thomas, chair of the political science department at the University of North Florida in Jacksonville. ``Casting a vote ought not be rocket science. Ordinary folks should be able to do it.''

Yet only 1,720 of Florida's more than 5,885 precincts are equipped with the optical scanners that alert voters to mistakes, in part because they are relatively expensive.

``We don't have that luxury. We could not afford to go to that system,'' said Bradford County's Vaughan. Its optical system cost about $35,000, but equipping all 20 precincts would have quadrupled the price, he said.

ERROR IS AN ERROR

In some cases, counties that have the mistake-proof equipment nonetheless don't believe in using it to help voters.

Okaloosa County, in the Panhandle, programs its precinct scanners to spit back fill-in-the-oval ballots only if they are completely blank.

On Election Day, Okaloosa's Precinct 12, where almost two-thirds of voters are black, had 35 uncounted ballots out of 364 cast. That's a discard rate of nearly 10 percent.

Elections Supervisor Pat Hollarn contends that giving voters a chance to redo an erroneous ballot would slow down voting too much. While acknowledging that the precinct has ``probably the lowest educational levels'' of the county, Hollarn said that voters, not elections officials, are responsible if they fail to follow directions.

``As simple as our system is, if people are functionally illiterate . . . Look, if the directions say fill in the oval, then you fill in the oval. What's so hard about that? If you screw it up, you screw it up. When you pander, low expectations make for low results.''

Some critics contend that more than economics has influenced county decisions on what kind of equipment and services to offer voters.

`DISENFRANCHISEMENT'

Echoing others, Adora Obi Nweze, state president of the NAACP, alleged that on Election Day many minority precincts were understaffed, run by poorly trained workers and unprepared for the deluge of black voters, who did not get the assistance that may have helped prevent voting errors.

``It's consistent with the overall plan and the overall actions in this state and in this country to treat blacks as though we don't count,'' Nweze said. ``All of it falls under one banner, the disenfranchisement of the black and minority voter.''

To be sure, other factors besides voting systems played into whether voters' choices were recorded and tallied.

In Duval County, where so many problems occurred, elections officials distributed inaccurate sample ballots just before Election Day.

The sample listed all presidential candidates on one page and instructed voters to ``Vote all pages.'' But at the polls, the official Election Day ballot instead listed presidential candidates on two pages and instructed voters to ``Vote appropriate pages.''

Critics say the conflicting directions led many voters to pick two presidential candidates. ``A lot of people thought that if you didn't vote on every page that your ballot won't be counted,'' said Rodney Gregory, an attorney working with the Democratic Party in Duval.

In Gadsden County, the state's only majority-black county, the list of presidential candidates was broken into two columns on the optical-scan ballot -- and 1,900 voters, or 12 percent of the total, marked more than one choice for president. The county lacks the voter-alert system.

When the canvassing board did a manual recount, officials found many voters had marked all 10 candidates and then scrawled Gore's name in the box for write-ins.

DESIGN FLAW

Some majority-white precincts also experienced problems. In heavily agricultural Hendry County, where the presidential ballot also featured a broken-column design, nearly one of every five ballots went uncounted in Precinct 6, where 82 percent of voters are white non-Hispanics. The county has optical scanners but not the error-alert system.

The blue-collar precinct, on the outskirts of Clewiston, is home to many sugar-industry workers and also is poor enough that more than half the children in the local elementary school qualify for free lunches.

County Commissioner Bo Pelham, whose district includes the precinct, said that although 96 presidential ballots were invalidated for overvotes, there were far fewer or no overvotes in his race and several others. That led him to conclude that the crowded ballot was the source of the problem.

``They weren't expecting to see 10 candidates for president,'' Pelham said.

Exit polls suggest that many of those stumbling over their ballots in majority-black precincts may have been inexperienced voters. Thanks in part to an NAACP get-out-the-vote drive, black voters' share of the state vote rose from an estimated 10 percent in 1996 to about 15 percent this year.

NEW VOTERS

In Okaloosa County's mostly black Precinct 12, Election Day brought out many new faces from the black community, said poll clerk Aljonia Porter, who lives in the neighborhood. And while she noted that the precinct is home to some elderly white voters who also may have made errors on their ballots, she said, ``most of our problem was first-time voters or those who had not voted in a long time.''

Some ballots registered as completely blank because voters had made their marks outside the borders of the ovals, Porter said. Those errors were caught. But the readers were not programmed to prevent other invalidating mistakes.

``I had one woman tell me on the way out that she colored in one oval and then wrote in the name of the candidate,'' Porter said. ``That's an overvote. She was just making sure. But it didn't count.''

Herald staff writer Brad Bennett contributed to this report.

Contact Us Copyright 2000 Miami Herald

-- Anonymous, December 28, 2000

Answers

"I don't understand. I mADE A MISTAKE. Its all your fault!"

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

"...low expectations make for low results..."

Kind of describes GWB's entire campaign.....and possibly the next four years to come.

Uh, John, can we assume you've never made a mistake in your life? How high and mighty of you. I don't think people are *wrongly* blaming the voting mechanisms. Why is it that your snide little remark seems to indicate that you do? What would you say if the tables were turned?

(Heh, of course we KNOW that would never happen in predominantly white, predominantly Republican precincts, right? Did any carpools of white, Republican voters get stopped by FL Highway Patrol? Did any white, Republican voters get turned away because their polling place ran out of ballots? How many white, Republican voters were turned away because the polls closed? How many white, Republican voters were erroneously listed as "convicted felons" by the [what a coincidence] State of Texas?)

Why is it that you don't see fit to comment on the incredible disparity of voting mechanisms -- e.g., a disproportionately higher percentage of predominantly white voting precincts have the Latest and Greatest Optical Scanners?

Do you feel that's OK? That's fair? Any changes you think should be made? Come on, John, you're obviously not afraid to voice your opinion ..... let's look at the WHOLE picture and not just the part that lends itself to your POV.

At least, that's what I'm always being told. Let's see if that applies to the Republican POV as well.

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

Patricia:

[Did any carpools of white, Republican voters get stopped by FL Highway Patrol?]

Yes. A total of 18 citations were handed out for failed equipment, 12 to whites and 6 to blacks, at that Tallahassee checkpoint.

[Did any white, Republican voters get turned away because their polling place ran out of ballots?]

Yes. No precinct in the entire state of Florida had NO white, Republican voters. When some precincts ran out of ballots, *everyone* was turned away.

[How many white, Republican voters were turned away because the polls closed?]

Same as above. A question for you: How many predominantly white, Republican precincts where this happened were *reported* by the PR spin machine you have your nose stuck into? (hint: none)

[How many white, Republican voters were erroneously listed as "convicted felons" by the [what a coincidence] State of Texas?]

??? In Florida? A couple of better questions might be (1) How many such voters were identified by the Democratic PR spin machine? (hint: none); and (2) Why don't you even bother to wonder where this kind of crap comes from in the first place? Do you always swallow things whole when they taste good to you?

It does seem to be the case that the poorest counties have the most outdated and dilapidated voting equipment, and also (not coincidentally) have the poorest residents, who tend to be black. It also seems to be the case that predominantly black precincts were staffed and equipped to handle the normal historical load, and in this election were swamped when half again as many voters showed up. This situation was made worse because most of these extra voters were first-time voters who didn't understand the procedures and needed extra help. This poor planning led to regrettable confusion.

Nobody is defending this situation. In light of what we've been through, it's obvious we need new equipment, we need standardization of equipment, we need a clearer legal definition of what constitutes a vote using all kinds of equipment, we need a clearer specification of what constitutes grounds for a recount, and (according to the USSC decision) recounts must be done according to these standards throughout the entire jurisdiction. So a lot needs to be changed.

But one can only laugh at someone who combs through the droppings of the Democratic PR spin machine, carefully picking out the juiciest allegations, and believing they have anything even *close* to a picture of how voting happened in Florida, much less the "inside scoop". The first step in correcting the very real problems is to discard the "problems" so wildly misrepresented as to be imaginary.

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

Gee, John, if I didn't know better, I'd say you sounded a lot like Flint.

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

Wow Patricia!

Your debating skills keep getting better and better every day!

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

So just how BIGGG are your hands Splint?

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

HEY!!! That's Flint's job to tell me how to debate and on what topics to debate and whether or not I'm doing a good job (which normally ends up being what a terrible job I'm doing).

Butt out.

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

I heard a story on the radio. At a party a drunk put a paper cup on his head and told his buddy (also drunk) to shoot it off. You can imagine the rest. The topic was should the government regulate to protect stupid people. Should stupid people have special rights?

How far can we as a society lower the bar? How far do we go to protect people stupid in not wearing seat belts? We seem to continue to lower the standards for education and then complain when we see the results in counties with lower grades. What circular logic!

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

"I heard a story on the radio. At a party a drunk put a paper cup on his head and told his buddy (also drunk) to shoot it off. You can imagine the rest. The topic was should the government regulate to protect stupid people. Should stupid people have special rights?

How far can we as a society lower the bar? How far do we go to protect people stupid in not wearing seat belts? We seem to continue to lower the standards for education and then complain when we see the results in counties with lower grades. What circular logic! "

Now there's some "compassionate conservatism" for you! And as far as stupid people go, I'd say that we have their poster boy getting ready to move into the White House thanks to "smart people" like you.

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

Butt out

Not gonna happen, "Trish".

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

I see. So are you two going to "tag-team" this, or what?

Give me a schedule or something so at least I'll know what to expect.

Oh, one more thing -- do you ever actually have anything of substance to say, or are "personal attacks" your specialty? Hope you're getting a salary because if you're getting paid based on the quality ..........

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

Hope you're getting a salary because if you're getting paid based on the quality ..........

Well now, "Trish" I could say the same thing about YOU. Run along now little one.

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

Well, I suppose you could, but you'd be wrong ;-)

Ciao!

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

Oops ..... potential miscommunication there -- please do not translate my "Ciao!" as "I'm outta here".

I'm not ;-)

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

I thought "ciao" was what Italian-Americans screamed whenever they smelled those good odors comin' from Mama's kitchen!

;)

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

Good one, Stephen.

It's actually a mish-mosh of groaning and "mmmmmmmmmmmm"-type noises.

At least, it was when I was a kid ;-)

I really miss my Grandma :-(

-- Anonymous, December 29, 2000

This whole thing boils down to revisionist history. Yeah, that's right.

Every single last ballot model used in Florida was pre-approved, published in newspapers, and discussed ad nauseum before Election Day. But when the desired result wasn't realized, the Dems had to call the *pre-approved* ballots' design into question. What a bunch of whiners.

Any post-election Fouls were simply Imagined. Sore-Loserman. The vast majority of the world press agreed.

Only the population centers voted for Gore. NYC, Chicago, Miami, LA, et. al. Look at a county-by-county map, and the geographical vote for Bush is absolutely overwhelming. The average murder rate in counties that voted for Gore is 13.2 per thousand; the average murder rate in counties that voted for Bush is 2.2 per thousand. Methinks I'd rather have the less murderous people electing our President.

Of course, this is disputed by the pro-Gore forces, who are offspring of the pro-Clinton forces, whose ex officio motto is "Do whatever it takes, just don't get convicted....oops, impeached.....oops, defeated."

Oops. Hard to fight incontrovertible facts.

The Clinton years of scandal-of-the-day are OVER. Good riddance.

It'll be fun to watch Hillary dodge & weave. Like a game of dodge-ball. The stuff's there; just who can make it stick, when you're dealing with such a slick weasellette.

-- Anonymous, December 30, 2000

Patricia,

Sandy lived in Philly for a while and had an Italian friend whose momma could outcook any of 'em. She said that Momma would put on a pot to boil and start cooking early in the morning, and would then spend the rest of the day running everybody out of the kitchen.

Sandy says her mouth watered all day; it was Roman Torture. Of course, all would be forgiven that evening when she enjoyed the first bite .. .. :)

-- Anonymous, December 30, 2000

Every single last ballot model used in Florida was pre approved, published in newspapers, and discussed ad nauseum before Election Day. But when the desired result wasn't realized, the Dems had to call the *pre-approved* ballots' design into question.
Get real, as if anyone could have complained and had them changed, also no one knew that the election of the president of the United States would hing on the votes in individual state, much less individual votes.
Did you know? You act as if someone should have known beforehand that the election would hang on the votes cast in those precients with error prone balloting systems.
Also there were plenty of people who did complain when they voted and those complaints were ignored.
What a bunch of whiners.
Whiners? Since when is it whining to verbalize a valid complaint, or even for illegal activities?
I suppose a rape victim is whining when she files a complaint about her rape, excuses are made about her causing it in the first place, for being too stupid to know she should not have been in the place she was in, or for wearing the wrong clothes, or for her behavior causing the rape.
Any post-election Fouls were simply Imagined. And you KNOW this for a fact, yet what anyone else sees is all in their imagination? Pretty damn strange that so many thousands of people IMAGINED so many different things.Sore-Loserman.
The vast majority of the world press agreed.

So now the press, (who get their information from whom?) dictate what the truth is.

Funny how you cannot acknowledge the things done by the republicans and Bush campaign that were wrong, yet you have no problem with devouring every little piece of spin against Gore.
Where is your intellectual honesty? Your adamant hate for Clinton and the democrats reminds me of those people in the original Time Bomb board and their belief in TEOTWAWKI. No amount of logic or facts would change their views, they believed what they believed and REFUSED to consider open their mind to the possibility that they were wrong in any of their views.
Do you believe that Gore said he invented the internet? Do you believe he said that "Love Story" was based on his life? Do you think you know the truth about the Buddhist temple? I dare you to write what you (think) you know about these subjects that Bush and co used consistantly in the campaign to smear Al Gore.

Only the population centers voted for Gore. NYC, Chicago, Miami, LA, et. al. Look at a county-by-county map, and the geographical vote for Bush is absolutely overwhelming.
So you think a farmer on 500 acres in Montana should have more clout then 10,000 people in the same physical area in New York? What kind of logic is that? You want people's voting power to be based on the amount of land they own or have surrounding them?
That doesn't make one iota of sense and you know it.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

On one hand we have a farmer in Montana that owns 500 acres, pays taxes, provides a needed product to society, and creates jobs in the process.

On the other hand we have 10,000 drug addicts, welfare leeches, illegal aliens, rapists, murderers, and basic human scum shoehorned into a housing project in New York City.

Do you want the latter group to be responsible for electing our countries leaders?

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Barry:

Having lived in Montana for some years, I might comment. First, never call anyone in Montana a farmer. They are likely to take your head off. They prefer to be called ranchers or growers, depending on what they do. Second, 500 acres in Montana is not a good sized front yard. Therefore the thesis is flawed.

Finally, if we are going to consider only the worst parts of each area's society, we could look at it this way.

Would you prefer a farmer in Montana, who refuses to pay any taxes, does not recognized the authority of any government, files liens against everyone he knows, is heavily armed and shoots at people for no particular reason? This particular farmer is working to create an all white nation in the NW-US. I could go on but you get the idea. 8<)

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Funny how you cannot acknowledge the things done by the republicans and Bush campaign that were wrong, yet you have no problem with devouring every little piece of spin against Gore. Where is your intellectual honesty? Your adamant hate for Clinton and the democrats reminds me of those people in the original Time Bomb board and their belief in TEOTWAWKI. No amount of logic or facts would change their views, they believed what they believed and REFUSED to consider open their mind to the possibility that they were wrong in any of their views.

Cherri- I have to wonder if you can even remotely see the hypocricy you exhibit in the above statement. To borrow your words; Your "adamant hate" for Bush reminds me of those people in the original Time Bomb board. ...you have no problem with devouring every little piece of spin againstGore Bush.

Bush body count --Cherri sams@brigadoon.com),

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Z,the answer is yes!

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Yes? to which question, you get the idea or you want this trogledyte able to decide who are next president is?

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

CD:

Cherri is holding the mirror correctly, but fails to recognize herself in it. When I said she had blind hatred, I wasn't kidding. I'm tempted to pull a "Poole" here and craft an article "documenting" that Bush used to EAT those he put to death. I'll bet Cherri would swallow that bait without a second thought!

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Barry:

Thanks for the honest answer. At least now, I know how much weight to give to your posts in the future.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Flint:

Bush used to EAT those he put to death.

What do you mean by Used to? *<)))

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Z:

You might instead consider each post on its own merits or lack of them. Announcing that you plan to reject potentially valid points purely out of spite for the poster does you no credit. Anyway, I continue to read your posts despite the occasional howler. Now and then you do make a good point, making your chaff worth sorting through.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Flint:

Announcing that you plan to reject potentially valid points purely out of spite for the poster does you no credit.

Flint, for one who assumes that he is analytical in approach, you aren't doing well. I said, this tells be how much weight to place on his posts. All I was doing was giving him enough rope to hang himself. He did a good job.

Anyway, I continue to read your posts despite the occasional howler. Right back at you.

< marquee> *<)))

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Z:

I agree, he did a good job this time. But how much weight you place on a post either depends on what the post says, or it depends on any prejudices you bring with you before reading it. And it certainly seems clear to me that you are talking about how much weight you will accord a post *in the future*, to posts you have yet to read.

Now, I grant that I expect your political position to influence your ability to think. Everyone suffers from this. You are no more an exception to this than Barry or I. But you don't counter this tendency by *deciding in advance* to discount posts not yet written. You only make it worse.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Ah Z, for all of your ‘perceived’ worldliness you just can’t seem to think outside the box can you? If you get up a little earlier in the morning you might recognize when a fork is being stuck in your hide. Wanna buy a clue?

BTW, there is a lot to be said for an ‘honest’ answer……you might give it a go sometime.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Howdy Barry:

My guess is that you are young or a fanatic. I have lived amongst such people for years. I get along with everyone. I know the signs and how to bait them into revealing themselves. I may be wrong, but I, sort of smell, the signs. It is up to you to clear yourself or out yourself. It is up to you.

I say little else because Flint supports you.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Z, if you would spend less time with your bullshitting you might digest some information. On numerous occasions I have stated my age, military background, family info, current City of residence, and many other salient facts. My name and email are for real and so is the rest of the package. I have never made any attempt to be someone other than who I am in my reflections or attitudes. Why would I concern myself with a non-entity like you? I have children that are most likely older and wiser than yourself so your ‘weight’ has no value. Why not send me an email? I have the pleasure to speak with many of the folks on this forum and always enjoy the mano a mano conversations. Of course, I’ll understand if you wish to remain in hiding.

Are you afraid of Flint? Intelligent soul that he is, I doubt that he supports all of my views and I find it amusing that you would be influenced in such a way. Like I said, your ‘weight’ has no value.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Barry:

You are a newcomer. Afraid of Flint; give me a break. We just agree on some things. I respect his opinion even when he is wrong, IMHO. Get real. Your are a far right wing religous racist or you aren't. Tell us now.

Best wishes,,,,,

Z

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

“You are a newcomer”

Wrong! Started on the old TB2000 in the fall of 1998. Have used a succession of handles leading up to my ‘coming out’ a few months ago.

“Get real”

I try to always be real. My primary motivation for visiting this forum is entertainment but my views are my own and never crafted for the purpose of exciting fools. You just happened along.

“Your are a far right wing religous racist or you aren't.” (Spelling and Grammar???)

Actually, I’m a middle of the road conservative and never evoke religion for political views or social commentary. I’m extremely disgusted at the current state of our ‘welfare society’. I’m not a big fan of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton and if that makes me a ‘racist’, then I can live with that.

Z, you masturbate while leafing through old issues of ‘Boy’s Life’, or not. Tell us now.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

wow barry you sound like another 'compassionate conservative' I know: shrubby dubby.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2001

Chicken Little!! I apologise for coming on so harsh with you, I thought I was replying to Maria, who has verbalized (visualized) her intense hatred for Clinton and Gore. Had I realized it was you posting I would have left out the personal references about your (her) beliefs.

I'm sorry, really I am. I respect you and would not attack you even though you are sorely mistaken in your beliefs about the election and republicans.

Thats what happens when I get 2 hours sleep. Kids stayed up until dawn, I stayed up with them, just to get back up 2 hours later.

Back to the subject. I cannot help but notice that your beliefs are consistant with your location in the "old south" as appears to be the case with so many others with the same beliefs. As I said to Stephen Poole elsewhere, the propensity of evedence is ignored, denied or justified by saying Gore and co did the same by people in that area of the country, due it appears, to be common practice for polititions to openly manipulate and coerse people through their political office.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2001

Yes mommy dearest.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2001