For those of you, who don't frequent the Fruitcake forum - a crosspost:

---------------

OK, I don’t normally do this, but somebody help me up on this soap-box.........

Many years ago, I made a substantial part of my living by finding, researching, and restoring antique and historical firearms. I was not much of a “gun nut”, but one thing just led to another, and after a few years, I had a quite large shop selling antique and modern firearms, two shooting ranges, skeet range, etc, etc. My boys were young then, and I realized it was a problem having guns of every description around all the time. One thing I did was to have a firm rule - NO toy guns. My kids grew up knowing what a gun was and what it did, and they had no confusion over the fact that they were not toys.

Yeah, yeah, I know. I had toy guns when I was a kid, and I have never (yet) shot anybody I didn’t mean to. But the times, they are a-changing. Nowadays, kids shoot kids in school rooms and on street corners.

So, at the risk of sounding like the old fuddy-duddy I am, I’d ask you please, don’t add to your kid’s confusion about guns. No matter how you feel about firearms, take your kids (girls as well as boys) to a supervised range, and let them shoot a gun. Don’t think for a minute, that you can spare them from guns and gun-violence; our (American) society is saturated with them. Any kid over three knows what guns are, but few of them understand what they really do.

Let them hold a gun and work the mechanism. Let them shoot and see what it does and how it does it. If possible ask the range manager to let tthem shoot something like wet clay or a gallon jug of water. Let your kids understand the damage a single bullet can do, and make them understand that there is no calling it back, once the trigger is pulled. It can be a very graphic demonstration of immediate results of one’s actions.

As my sons got bigger, I made sure there was never any mystique or romance about our guns. I made a deal with them - they could see and handle (or show to friends) any gun we had. All they had to do was ask, and I would stop ANYTHING I was doing at ANYTIME. I might add, that my sons are now grown (mostly) and care nothing about firearms.

Please don’t think I am trying to chastise any of you for your choices. I would never have spoken if I didn’t care for you and your families. I’ll turn the pulpit over to someone else now. Just don’t get me started on blood-and-guts video games!

----------------------------------------------------------------

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), December 21, 2000

Answers

Lon, I totally agree.

I have owned guns. I have not owned one since I have had children. The main reason is that I am not in a situation where I feel I need one. I have taught my children that they are not toys, and discussed what the rules would be if I ever chose to own one again.

I have not only never gotten my kids, or foster kids for that matter, a toy gun, but gone to the extreme of including water gusn and not allowing their friends to bring one over.

There is one particular kid in the neighborhood who has used his supersoaker as a weapon against the rest of the kids. His hostility and mentality is scary.

One day he had a toy rifle, as usually happens, the other boys got their parents to get them one. I was watching out one day when a few girls, including my daugher, were surrounded by the boys and their rifles and realistic looking handguns.

I went ballistic! I ran out there and told them to NEVER point their guns at these kids again or I would call the police on them. They acted just like you see the gangsta's on TV. They held the hand guns sideways and shot acroos a wide area, those with rifles were hiding behind things and taking time to aim.

I informed their arent that this was discusting and unnacceptable, killers in training.

Never saw the guns or rifles again.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), December 22, 2000.

My mom's family was into hunting and gun collection and let their kids play with toy guns. One day, after being subjected to bullying, her youngest brother got out his father's hunting rifle and tried to shoot his tormentors. The gun was loaded, but he was a skinny ten year-old kid at the time, so he didn't hit anything and ended up with a broken collar bone from the recoil. He still doesn't like guns to this day.

Mom never allowed us to have toy guns or even use sticks to pretend to shoot anyone. As an adult, I have a couple of guns, a pump-action shot gun for home defense and a revolver for target practice. Nothing will scare a thief off faster than hearing a shotgun ratchet in the dark. We don't have any kids yet, but once we adopt a couple (I can't have kids anymore) I'll definitely keep the guns out of reach. I probably won't let them have toy guns either because I'm just too damn old to have my butt kicked by my mother.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), December 22, 2000.

Tarzan, you're never too old to have your butt kicked by your mother. Just one of those things.

Hope you are well these days.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), December 22, 2000.

Thanks Patricia. I'm putting some weight back on and getting my hair back. Fortunately, I look pretty good bald, and I managed to keep my eyebrows and eyelashes, which isn't always the case with chemo patients.

My fiance and I had always planned on adopting at least one kid. She places kids for adoption and feels really strongly about that. I think there's plenty of people in the world so I don't feel a need to pass on my genes, as it were. We're planning on adopting two or three. I think three is going to be our limit. Before we adopt though we're going to have a couple of foster kids.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), December 22, 2000.

Lon, I just need to comment on this one line:

"Any kid over three knows what guns are, but few of them understand what they really do."

Not too sure about that. I'm remembering the pre-schooler (this year?) who told a classmate he was going to kill her and brought in a gun the next day and did it. Perhaps he didn't/doesn't realize the finality of his actions, but he certainly equated Gun = Kill.

(Of course, his "home life", as I recall, wasn't much to speak about.)

They understand a lot more than we think. And that's a little scary in situations like this. This is where parental responsibility enters the picture (or at least, where it should enter the picture).

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), December 22, 2000.

Toy guns are fine around this home. If not toy guns, the children will use sticks. If not sticks, they will use their fingers. I have seen it firsthand.

Toy guns are an excellent way to start teaching gun safety. Even a three year old can grasp that we don't point guns (toy or real) at people. We only shoot things like deer and rabbits and turkeys, not Uncle Joe.

As far as Cherri's stance on water guns, I think that it is sad that her children have never experienced the exhilarating fun of a water fight in the heat of summer. Unlike some of the realistic looking toy guns, the squirt guns in my neck of the woods don't resemble real guns at all. When my children pick up a squirt gun, it is not to play with a toy gun, it is to get somebody wet.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), December 22, 2000.

Foster parenting 1st is a great idea Tarz.

My niece was unfortunate to be placed in foster care awhile back in California. I played HELL getting her out and live w/me.

There are good foster families, but my niece suffered, not all are good.

Having the chance to take care of her for almost 2 years was the 'best'. She shared many heart wrenching stories of the other children in the homes. Sad.

I think anyone who would be willing to foster parent is just bout the greatest GIVER on earth.

Happy Holidays, and remember those who are in foster care this time of year.

-- sumer (shh@aol.con), December 22, 2000.

J-

You don't need water guns. Try getting some lenths of surgical tubing. Tie one end off and fill from the other end. It won't pop, but the pressure is much more intense than any water gun.

Sumer-

We figure that it would be too disruptive to our children to have foster kids in and out during their childhood. It would also prevent us from really catering to their needs, since so many foster kids have special requirements. We figure the time to be foster parents is before we have kids and after they've left home. My folks have been foster parents for a number of years now and they've really enjoyed it. They find it to be very rewarding.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), December 22, 2000.

Tarzan: I agree it Was hard for my 16 year old to 'suddenly' have to share his territory (and yes you males CAN be very territorial) with my 8 yr old niece.

I am waiting for him to grow up and go out on his own, then I hope to buy a new home, and fill it w/foster children.

Here in NE Ohio, they are BEGGING for foster parents. Not all have special needs. Alot are teens though. I love teens. They are imho the ones who need the most love patience and understanding.

I think I can do that. My heart wants too anyway.

-- sumer (shh@aol.con), December 22, 2000.

J,

Like I said, I'm not criticizing your choices. But, in my particular situation, I found it safer just not to confuse the issue with my kids. If you can use toy guns to teach gun safety, that’s great. My point was and is, just be sure they know what a gun REALLY does.

A young woman in East Texas moved out to the country with her new husband several years ago. Her dad and brothers had all shot guns and hunted, and she was not uncomfortable around firearms. After all, they only owned a single-shot .22 caliber rifle, how dangerous could that be? One sunny afternoon, she was taking the gun out to her husband, to shoot a turtle in the pond. She bumped it on the door frame and shot herself under the chin. She died in my arms on the way to the hospital, and I can still see her beautiful face.

I know, that's melodramatic; people die everyday by everything from busses to bee stings. But still, it’s hard to learn to treat a gun with respect unless you firmly realize what they are made for.

As to the waterguns, I think Cherri was more concerned with the attitude of the kid using them than the fact that they resembled guns. But, you know, all boys are terrible heathens, and maybe our play is a way of learning about such things as violence and hostility, and how we deal with them in ourselves. I mean, half the fun of "cowboys and Indians" was getting shot and dying. Maybe it’s how we learn to face the morbid facts of pain and death. Or maybe it’s a genetic proclivity towards violence that has to be recognized and exorcised before we become "civilized". I don’t know; just a random wandering thought.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), December 22, 2000.

Lon, I'm so sorry about what happened.

-- helen (b@r.f), December 22, 2000.

helen, I guess I should have explained further. I was a very young EMT at the time, and she was the first patient to die while in my care. That same year, I delivered my first baby - on Christmas morning. Life goes on, and memories linger.

-------------------------------

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), December 22, 2000.

Lon,

No criticism taken here. To get another perspective into the discussion, I felt that I should let my viewpoint be known.

You make an excellent point about a child knowing what a gun REALLY does. I grew up in a hunting family, and have been exposed to guns (shotguns) all of my life. I started accompanying my father on hunting trips at an early age. I killed my first squirrel at 12 or 13, but it wasn't until I was 16 or 17 when I finally understood the FULL ramification of what a shotgun can do. I shot a rabbit at close range, and the destruction was horrific. I will never forget that as long as I live. I hope that I do a good job of passing that kind of impression on to my children.

I think that you are right on track about little boys learning about violence and hostility through their play. I especially think that your observation, "Or maybe it's a genetic proclivity towards violence that has to be recognized and exorcised before we become "civilized" ", is right on the mark.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), December 22, 2000.

Merry Christmas to all! Lon the story on the fatality caused by the 22 hits home with me. I can remember a school mate who couldn't play basketball one Friday evening because the Principal told the crowd that Bobby had been shot between the eyes by a 22 bullet richocet off a plow beam. A prayer was given and the game was played but an incident never forgotten! He recovered within two weeks and the bullet still sits behind his eye with a visible scar to this day. We all had 22's at 10 years of age and the 06's were carried in the rear window of the pickups to school in case we saw a deer in the cool October morning. We never shot anybody but only ourselves once in a great while and nobody ever questioned the arsenal out in the school parking lot. Those were the days!

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), December 23, 2000.

I think kids should be allowed to have to guns. Toy guns are not the problem, the problem is that parents don't tell their children whats right and wrong. I remember My first to gun a little six shooter dad sat me down and said If you point this at anyone I'll kick your ass. I never pointed that gun at anyone because I knew I would get my ass kicked. If you want to do away with all toy guns let's go futher, no more toy cars because people get killed in car accidents to.

This is only my opinion I could be wrong!

-- Bosco (denden_knows_everything@home.edu), December 23, 2000.