Leica prices

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I was cleaning out my bookshelf and found an Adorama 1997 Catalog. For those of us with short memories, here are a few prices from about 4 years ago, fun to look at when it seems like the current equipment cost are too high:

(no rebates on any of these)

Leica M6 Body $2795.95 35MM F1.4 ASPHERICAL $2895.95 28mm f2.8 $1995.95 75mm f1.4 $ $2995.00

So an outfit with an M6 body, 35f1.4 and 75 f1.4 would have set you back $8686.90. The same outfit today with the TTL flash body and 2 lenses is "merely" $6635.

And these are really something, the R body prices 4 years ago:

R6.2 body Chrome $2995.00 R7 Body $2695.00

Here it is 4 years later and a mint R7 body cost about $1000, and you can buy a brand new R6.2 for about $1700.00. For some reason the R lens prices have not gone done much.

I also realized even though I own 2 Leica cameras and 7 of their lenses total, I have never bought a single piece of Leica equipment new, accept for a few accesories. I quess people like me aren't much help in boosting Leica's sales. I'm curious how many other posters are also used equipment bargain hunters.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), December 20, 2000

Answers

My 135/4 APO-Telyt-M was new gray-market. Otherwise everything was purchased used. I personally consider used Leica R to be the best bargain in all cameradom. It's top quality glass but because it isn't "collectible" it depreciates like a lead baloon, sits on dealers' shelves until they practically let you write your own invoice. At least that's been my experience. I very recently put together an R system of EXC+ to Mint- 2 R6.2's, one R6, 19,28,35,50,2 90's and a 180 (all but the 19 and 28 are latest-version) for just over $6K. A similar M system would run 50%-75% more, and the R lenses are more expensive [generally] than the M's when new.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), December 20, 2000.

Those monetary fluxes can really change things... either good or bad. I was living in Japan in the '80s and the Yen went from about 300 Yen to the US Dollar to about 125 in a very short time. I was glad I was holding all of the Nikon gear I needed, I sure couldn't afford to buy anything else. To the Japanese, nothing changed, (unless you worked in an export business), but everything tripled for Americans being paid in Dollars. Now in Germany, their money is lower against the Dollar, who knows about the future?

I am guilty of not putting too much money into the bank for Leica. Over the years, I had six M bodies and a dozen or so lenses. Only an M6 bought in 1988 and a 90mm bought in 1994 were purchased new. I would almost consider buying new now, but my gear is flawless. Maybe I'll buy a year 2000 camera in about 2015. When digital overtakes the market, I'll be "analog Al" with an M... used of course.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), December 20, 2000.


I bought my M6-TTL body new from a local Leica USA dealer. I bought my lenses new via a "grey market" vendor. And since there was a problem with the first body, which had to be replaced, I'm glad I bought from a USA dealer. I've never had problems with lenses, though, but since I like new ones, I always buy grey market.

-- john costo (mahler@lvcm.com), December 20, 2000.

I bought the following used R equipment last month from a dealer in Jakarta, Indonesia:

R7 body $800 exc apart from a scrape on the top from the film advance 24/2.8 $800 exc + with caps but without lens hood 35/2.0 $700 like new in box with warranty card, pouch, caps 60/2.8m $540 used but not abused, glass perfect 90/2.8 $540 used but not abused, glass perfect, including ext. tube ------------ TOTAL $3380

The above list seems to compare favourably with prices at Internet sites. The Indonesian rupiah is currently trading at about 9,300 to the greenback. Four years ago it was about 2,500. Many people here are unable to afford to buy luxury goods at the moment, so items such as used Leica gear are hard to sell.

Regards,

Ray Moth

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), December 20, 2000.


They're fun to look at, but I guess not to those who bought them at that price. I'm a used equipment bargain hunter. In fact most of my camera equipment (Nikon AF & MF) were purchased second-hand. I can also sell them again for a slight loss. Generally, I'd do some research on what equipment I need for my photography, keep it in memory, then as soon as I see a bargain, I'd get it. I probably won't buy a new Leica M since they seem to last forever anyways, so why not use that to my advantage.

For those interested in buying new, Germany would be a good place to buy right now. The Deutsche Mark is at an all time low, in anticipation of the Euro replacement in 2002. Even with the Euro, there's no guarantee that this new currency will hold up against the US Dollar, if the dollar doesn't weaken first.

I also noticed that Leicas from reputable dealers are priced competitively here in Asia (Thailand in particular) since the South- East Asian currencies are weak right now. New M6's (.72 TTL) cost around $1,400. Good condition second-hand ones run for around $1,100. M2's and M3's at around $800.

-- Ron Gregorio (gregorio@ksc.th.com), December 21, 2000.



In my 20 years as amateur photographer, Iīve seen many cameras as probably most of you, and for me there is no best investment than leica. I donīt know if it is expensive as a colection item,(it depends on the colector); although it is a good investment (specialy Mīs), as working equipment Iīm sure there is not better, you can pay for a "comfortable" autoeverythingbatterydependable disponsal body (yes until now everything that work with ships is disponsable, or who waranties us an F5 can be working in 30 years, after everyday usage)I donīt mean they are not good cameras, but who can fix an electronic body from the early 90īs today; and using leica gives you leica quality to all your pictures; and they last, so for me in a scale, leitz quality makes the diference for the users. And Mīs make better photographers.

-- Roberto Watson-Garcia (mawago@prodigy.net.mx), December 21, 2000.

Unfortunately for Leica, I am largely a used buyer too, the only new Leica I bought was a Pradovit 2002 projector back in 1983 - still superb it is too and an R6 in 1992 when they were not available secondhand in any quantity. As I am fundamentally an R user I agree that secondhand is best. I am not sure that $1700 for an R6.2 is a price I have ever seen quoted, but I suppose you might be lucky to get one for this price on ebay or similar. The prices in the US are set by the DM price - this is why many Leicas are cheaper today than 3 years ago as the DM and Euro are much weaker than the almighty dollar - but this will not last for ever. Leica are certainly pushing the limit of pricing with the new R lenses. I think that with Leicas there is no penalty buying secondhand as long as you keep your eyes open and use your head.

-- Robin Smith (rsmith@springer-ny.com), December 21, 2000.

Robin, Even B&H has the R6.2 at $1895 - $150 rebate for $1745, and they are usually a bit higher than some of the other mail order authorized dealers. Reading the responses above, it's a good thing some folks buy the cameras new and decide they can't use them / don't like them. Otherwise they'd never end up on the used market at a fraction of the new prices. Its funny, but a similar situation happened with another European company whose "equipment" I am interested in--Alfa Romeo. Very few of the several hundred members in the local Alfa club had ever bought an Alfa Romeo new. No wonder they left the US market, and it makes me wonder how the hell Leica USA stays in business. Seems like most of us either buy used or gray market.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), December 21, 2000.

Andrew

Ah yes, of course, body only - was not thinking! I agree we constantly bang on about Leica, but we must accept some of the responsibility if Leica does go out of business!

-- Robin Smith (rsmith@springer-ny.com), December 21, 2000.


If you're buying new "grey market", you're still supporting Leica, albeit indirectly. After all, the importer gets his stuff from a distributor, who gets it from Leica.

-- john costo (mahler@lvcm.com), December 21, 2000.


John,

Leica USA doesn't make one penny when we buy used or grey market cameras and lenses. Leica Germany still makes money on the grey market equipment, but our national distributer gets cut out of the loop. I have purchased grey market also (Nikon stuff), so I won't be able to complain if Nikon USA goes bankrupt and I have to send to Japan for parts and service.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), December 21, 2000.


Leica USA is one of many distributors of Leica products. If American consumers are buying grey market, then either Leica USA is doing something wrong (i.e., no value-added service for the extra cost, or simply overpriced), OR Leica USA is somehow the victim of current market forces over which it has no control. I'm not a trained economist, but I know enough to bet that the answer is the former. I don't care if Leica USA goes out of business or not; frankly, the nature of the market today does not favor exclusive distributorships as the most effective way to sell and service consumers. Leica Camera A.G. perhaps should look at other methods; it would sell more product to more people and would make more money in the process.

-- john costo (mahler@lvcm.com), December 22, 2000.

This is turning into an interesting discussion about the future of Leica (US and abroad). I'm wondering now how they can support their aftermarket sales/service if used Leica owners send their cameras and lenses to be repaired by qualified third-party repairmen. I guess this is the danger of making something too well. For Nikon, I think the FM and FM2 will be around a long time even after the F90's, F80's and F5's have disappeared (as long as film is still available) because any competent repairman can repair it. Now, I only hope that there will be third party parts manufacturers for Leica and Nikon so that we can keep the parts available for the next few decades (similar to the VW beetle case).

-- Ron Gregorio (gregorio@ksc.th.com), December 22, 2000.

I'm not sure people buying grey market equipment has anything to do with Leica USA being overpriced or having no value. I think its human nature to want the cheapest price on whatever you buy, but I also think our "Costco" mentality has a downside to it. Service after the sale does have value, even if it is hard to put a dollar amount on it. People complain now about the lack of good service; I wonder what it would be like if warranty repairs and parts had to be obtained from the original country of manufacture when all the US distributers haved closed their doors.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), December 22, 2000.

If Leica A.G. eliminated their exclusive distributorships (to whom they sell product at outrageously low prices), it could more than likely sell more product at a higher price. It would simply sell direct to retailers (and only retailers), who would then set their own prices. There would be more competition on price. As for warranty repair, Leica A.G. could either set up repair depots in major countries (it would have the money from increased profits), or simply contract the work to the thousands of repairmen across the world who know how to fix Leica. I've never heard of a company making LESS money by eliminating one step (the distributor) in the food chain.

-- john costo (mahler@lvcm.com), December 22, 2000.


In retrospect, since my original IIIf in 1954 I've bought a brand new Leica about once in every decade, plus many new lenses. If Leica expects me to buy new equipment they had better market it. Whan the M-7 comes out I will purchase one, and I don't mean an M-6 with a different viewfinder, either. If they would sell me new screw mount lenses I would buy them (I understand these are available in Japan, but not in USA which certainly doesn't endear them to me).

-- Bill Mitchell (bmitch@home.com), December 22, 2000.

I just came across this thread again. Further to my previous post, I have now bought a NEW Leica R8, complete with 5 year warranty. It was relatively inexpensive at US$1,100 but that was here in Jakarta, Indonesia. I am also considering buying an autowinder new, which I can get here for only US$400. However, my lenses were all used when I bought them and I'm not planning on buying any new ones. I find the price of new Leica glass to be way beyond my budget!

The view that purchasing used gear doesn't benefit the manufacturer is erroneous in my opinion. Why? Because it sometimes enables the vendor of the used gear to afford to replace it with something new. It's part of a chain. For instance, I traded in an R7 to be able to buy a new R8 but the dealer wouldn't have accepted the trade-in if he didn't believe he could sell the R7 to someone else.

Just my 2 cents.

Regards, Ray

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), May 04, 2001.


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