Republicans for Al Gore - a Website.

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Here's one guaranteed to start some discussion.

Republicans for Gore

I think it raises some good questions about why folks follow a particular party [regardless of their issues at a particular place in time.] What happened to voting for the people who represent ME, regardless of party affiliation? WAS there ever such a thing?

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000

Answers

THAT CLOWN IS A DEM. Ran for Congress as one. Read his "position" and then know that he LOST. Surprised?

http://www.perkel.com/congress/stand.htm

MY RESPONSE: I'm the Democratic candidate for Congress. These are my views so get used to it. If you don't like it then vote Republican. I represent 15 counties with over 500,000 people. If the Democratic party doesn't like my views they should have ran a candidate who could beat me. If I hadn't filed, the Democrats wouldn't even have a candidate. It is my position that because of the apathy of the Democratic Party in Greene County that they have no room to complain.

The party mentioned two issues that are offensive in particular; Legalizing Pot and Prostitution. It's time for America to get real here. Pot is a safer drug than beer and it's stupid to put people in jail for it. Drug addiction is a medical problem that requires a medical solution, not a criminal solution. I'm right about this and if the party doesn't like it I don't care.

And if this county legalized prostitution then it could be regulated and the vast amount of money wasted on persecuting women could be better spent on social programs to help women who don't want to be prostitutes, but have to out of poverty. There is no one on either side of this issue who wants women to be forced into prostitution because they need to feed their children. But I have yet to have those who would continue to criminalize prostitution explain to me how putting a woman in jail helps feed her kids or cure her poverty.

Quite frankly, this is a Republican area and if the local Democratic party doesn't like my positions it can only make me more interesting to the rest of the electorate. If the party wants to pose as being interested in family values, then they should go after crooked lawyers who profit from destroying traditional families for money. If the prosecutor were to prosecute crooked lawyers instead of harassing whores, Springfield would be a much better place to live.

eforming the Courts

This is my main issue and you can read about it in detail on my People before Lawyers pages. I believe that the rights of citizens come before the profits of lawyers. I believe that the courts should follow their own rules and obey the law. I believe that the problem with the courts is that they are self regulating and that self regulation doesn't work. I believe that the solution is to eliminate self regulation and institute external regulation. I believe that self regulation of the judicial system is unconstitutional and that it violates the balance of powers doctrine of the constitution.

I believe that a person should have the right to represent himself or herself pro se and not have judges deliberately rule against you because you don't have a lawyer. A judge should show respect for the pro se litigant rather than disdain. I believe that there are many cases where a person can do a better job of representing themselves than a lawyer can because they are more familiar with the facts. Small claims court works with and without lawyers. All other courts can do likewise. There are times when you need a good honest professional lawyer. But you should not be forced to get one by judges who are hostile to the citizens they are supposed to serve.

I believe that more court processes should be changed to not require lawyers, especially in Family Court on custody issues. I believe that the court should protect families during their very difficult time of divorce to help ensure a smooth as possible transition through the separation. The courts should protect families from dishonest lawyers who would take advantage of families in their time of vulnerability. I believe that it is morally reprehensible for a judge to allow lawyers to rip off and completely destroy families and not enforce the Rules of Professional Conduct to stop them. We are not food for crooked lawyers and we are no longer going to stand for it.

I am not against lawyers. I am against crooked lawyers. If crooked lawyers are allowed to cheat, then honest lawyers will never win. This forces honest lawyers out of the system and lawyer ethics becomes a race to the bottom. If crooked lawyers are punished they will stop being crooked. If crooked lawyers are allowed to flourish then there is no justice in the "Justice System" and "Justice" is merely a brand name to create the illusion of justice in the minds of the public. We don't have justice, all we have is a simulation of justice.



-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000

DON"T YOU EVER RESEARCH **WHO*** IS BEHIND THESE WEB SITES?? Two more minutes of surfing turned this up:

http://sex.perkel.com/escort/index.htm

How to Use Escort Services
A Men's Guide

by Marc Perkel

This page contains material of an adult sexual nature.

Escort Etiquette

There are a lot of things they don't teach you in school, and one of them is how to use an escort service. Somehow society seems to think that men should just know how to do this. Why they make this assumption is beyond me. The truth is that most guys don't have a clue about what to do in this situation, so I'm going to tell you what I've learned -- and what the pros have taught me. By the way, I Ran for Congress and I Ran for United States Senate and supporting the legalization of Prostitution.

Hiring a sex professional is the same as hiring any other professional, like a doctor, lawyer, or auto mechanic. You pay them money for a service. It doesn't matter what the service is: if you're nice to the professional, you generally get a better result than if you aren't. I treat sex professionals the same way I treat other professionals I hire. And like other professionals in my life, these women treat me as a valued customer and may even become friends of mine. They look forward to seeing me again, the same way any other professional likes to see their good clients come around.

So let's start at the beginning. Maybe you've never called an escort service before, or maybe you have but didn't have a good time. What I hope to do here is give you a step by step guidebook, telling you exactly what to do so that you can get the most out of your escort experience.

Disclaimer

Prostitution is illegal. I have written a Legal Brief arguing that Escort Services are not prostitution businesses. The government and uptight moralistic religious and political nut cases have created laws to put you in jail for selling sex or buying sexual services. You can give it away for free, but you can't sell it. Therefore, everything I say here is fiction and is for your entertainment and amusement only. If you are under 18, I apologize for the world we are leaving you. If you read this, you are instructed to forget everything as soon as you're done.

Related Links on This Site



-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000

Thanks for the response, Charlie. Is THIS guy a Democrat, as well?

Silicon valley Republican balks at Seminole County case

Personally, I don't know what should be done about Seminole county, but I DO know that I dislike the attempts of Republicans to smear the judge involved.

No matter how this turns out, this is the weirdest election in MY lifetime. [I'd pay money to have been a fly on the wall during the Rutherford B. Hayes election.]

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000


Charlie:

Regarding your SECOND post, I've followed your interest in sex on the web, and I certainly defer to your outstanding knowledge on the subject.

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000


I posted the previous link instead of the current one, and I've already moved on from the current one. Sorry about that. Perhaps this will give y'all a look into Seminole County.

Seminole County

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000



Don't you have studying to do Miss?

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000

Don't you have studying to do Miss?

Of course I do, but I've ALSO looked at the numbers, and no matter WHAT I do on the final exams, my grades will be pretty much unaffected. I can afford a few hours of play time.

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000


Does this read TO YOU as it reads to ME? The Republicans hired a Freeper to fill in the numbers in Seminole County?

Testimony in Seminole County

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000


Stephen:

What say you on the law in this regard?

"Despite the Republican attempt to dismiss the Seminole County voting irregularities as a “hypertechnicality,” the depositions released yesterday make it clear that there was intentional voter fraud in the actions of Republican officials. Further, there is clear precedent for the proposed remedy and good prospects for it being upheld on appeal.

First, the depositions just made available provide clear evidence of intentional voter fraud. Trial testimony established that election supervisor Sandra Goard had repeatedly and publicly stated her policy that no absentee ballot request would be accepted without the voter ID filled in by the voter, family member or guardian as required by Florida law. She changed this rule to favor the Republicans. Indeed, Goard’s office bent over backwards to help aid the Republican Party’s unlawful effort to alter and resubmit applications: They became so consumed with this task that they were unable to alert other voters – including Democrats – that their applications were incomplete. One clerk, Eleanor Bailey, testified that GOP operative Leach often entered the wrong Voter ID number on applications; she admitted that she was told to give these forms special treatment. They were processed and absentee ballots mailed when all other forms with incorrect information were rejected.

Second, the remedy is just and has good precedent for being upheld on appeal: The most useful precedent for an appellate court victory comes from Roe v. Alabama, a case spawned by a post-election dispute in 1994. Republican Perry Hooper appeared to have defeated incumbent Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Sonny Hornsby by 262 votes. At issue were about 2,000 absentee ballots that hadn't been opened, and were deemed illegal, because they lacked witnesses, notaries, or other requirements. Hornsby wanted them counted and both sides assumed that that if the ballots were counted it would lead to a Hornsby victory. A state judge in Montgomery ordered that the non- complying absentee ballot envelopes be opened and counted. Hooper, joined by Mobile Republican activist Larry Roe, filed suit in federal court, seeking to prevent the counting of the ballots. Their lawyers argued that if the 2,000 ballots were counted, it would violate the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment by treating one group of voters - those with the faulty ballots - differently than other citizens.

The 11th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals (Alabama, Georgia and Florida) agreed. It ruled that under state law those votes didn't qualify. Counting the non-complying ballots would "dilute the votes of those voters who met the requirements" and "have the effect of disenfranchising those who would have voted but for the inconvenience imposed by the notarization/witness requirement." As a result the votes weren't counted, and Hooper became chief justice. The central finding was that by allowing people with incomplete and therefore illegal ballot requests to receive ballots and to then vote the 14th amendment rights of voters who complied with the law, as well as those who might have voted had they not had to follow Florida's strict requirements for making absentee ballot requests, had been violated."

Are we going to stick to the constitution on this one or say, "Nothing but a technicality. NO problem."

The Justice in Florida campaign works in cooperation with Palm Beach law firm Richman Greer to support the plaintiff in the case and to help defend the integrity of Florida's election laws. It provides ongoing coverage and access to news and information on the case at http://www.justiceinflorida.com. The campaign is also being supported by the members of Democrats.com http://www.democrats.com, the largest independent community of Democratic activists on the Internet. This activity is independent of the Democratic Party and the Gore campaign.

The principle issue in this case is that election supervisor Sandra Goard arranged for GOP operatives to alter absentee ballot requests. Numerous similar Democratic requests were rejected. Florida law requires that only a voter, a family member or guardian may complete all information on the absentee ballot application. Anti-Fraud legislation in 1998 and a court ruling that year granted Florida judges broad authority to invalidate elections if fraud or even unintentional error results in a flawed outcome."



-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000


I just ran across that Republican from Silicon Valley link. I'd said I'd provide it if I found it again, so I will:

Skirsch

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000



Anita - I'm in agreement that the GOP operatives acted illegally and that some penalty should be paid for their intentional fraud and deceit, but the big question that everyone seems to be struggling with is "What should the REMEDY be?"

I've struggled with this issue myself. While it would be easy to shit-can all 15,000 absentee votes in Seminole County, to do so would obviously disenfranchise several thousand innocent voters. I finally solved my dilemma while reading the Seminole County link you provided where it was stated:

"The defense did not contest that GOP operative Michael Leach worked 15-21 days unsupervised in Seminole election offices adding voter IDs to 2,126 GOP-mailed absentee ballot request forms."

Since Leach's unlawful activities gave the GOP an "unfair advantage" of 2,126 votes, that's the magic number I would use to reduce the statewide Republican vote tally, keeping the rest of the absentee ballots intact. Gore, of course, would then win.

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000


http://www.skirsch.com/politics/whyGore.htm

skirsch was a GOP for GORE before the voting. What's the point of this? He is just another citizen whose guy LOST denying reality just like their Leader.

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000


Potato-person:

I agree that 15,000 voters shouldn't be disenfranchised by the illegal acts of a few people. Seminole and Martin are counties that [IMO] need to be dealt with by someone smarter than I.

If I add it all up, however, we have X number of folks who were deprived of their opportunity to vote because their names erroneously appeared as felons on various county lists. We have folks who requested absentee ballots and never received them. We have folks who thought that their application for voter registration at the DMV would put them on the record. We have folks who were turned away from the polls despite the fact that they were in line before the polls closed.

There are many, many more reasons to suggest voting irregularities in this election than I can count.

Frankly, I think it sucks, and I think it sucks that Bush supporters are willing to overlook these irregularities.

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000


OnePotato:

Here is the Seminole County fact situation as I read it at cnn.com and in the testimony before the court.

Republican and Democratic voters requested applications for absentee ballots in Seminole County. The Democrats provided these voters with complete applications, but some glitch caused the Republican applications to be missing a voter registration code that should have been on there.

Both Republican and Democratic voters then filled out and returned these ballot applications. Those Republicans who received applications without voter registration codes had no idea their applications were flawed. Nobody contests that any applicants did anything wrong. Nobody claims that Democratic voters were harmed in any way by being provided with correct application forms.

The Republican staff received these applications and realized that the voter registration codes had inadvertently been omitted. They filled this field in by hand, since the printer missed it initially. Nobody contests that anyone filled in anything different manually from what should have been printed on there in the first place.

All applicants were then sent valid ballots, some of which were filled in and returned by these absentee voters. Nobody contests that the *returned ballots* were incorrect in any way.

So OK, you might ask, just what's the problem here anyway? Well, the Plaintiffs in this case are contending that those Republican applicants who inadvertently received incomplete applications SHOULD have THEREFORE been disenfranchised! Nobody is claiming any kind of "intentional fraud and deceit" on the part of anyone. What is being claimed is that BECAUSE some Republican voters received faulty applications for absentee ballots, they should NOT have been permitted to vote AT ALL! Indeed, they should not have been sent absentee ballots, because their applications were faulty (through no fault of their own).

The Republicans are claiming that this is a technicality -- that the original omission of the registration codes was inadvertent, that given time and labor constraints they adopted the only workable way of correcting the problem, that the alternative was to DENY voters their absentee ballots and deliberately disenfranchise them (which would have been even worse).

The Democrats are arguing, essentially, that the original printing glitch was simply TOO DAMN BAD for those unfortunate voters who received the incomplete applications. The law says it's gotta be on there, it wasn't, tough shit, you can't vote! The Democrats are not even claiming that anyone was playing partisan politics or trying to bias anything in any way. Their entire argument is that the printing glitch rendered the applications invalid, therefore those who received them could not legally receive absentee ballots and should not have been permitted to vote at all.

Some of the legalities here are quite fascinating. The lawyer for the Democrats argues that Gourd "refused to let Democratic Party workers amend ballot applications from Democratic voters and covered up the fact that she was playing partisan politics." Later, that lawyer was asked if there *were any* ballot applications from Democratic voters that needed to be amended, and he admitted there were none, and that the reason he said Gourd "refused" was that she *was not asked*!

So far, I haven't been able to find any allegation of "fraud or deceit" anywhere in this case. The facts are not contested. The Democrats are simply trying to claim that the Republicans should have disenfranchised some number of voters *rather than* correct their error as well as they could.

Incidentally, this is *precisely* why the Gore campaign is NOT a party to this suit. Here their mantra has been that everyone's vote is sacred and should count even though we must GUESS that the voter intended a Gore vote, and now they're trying to disenfranchise Republican voters (only) on a technicality nobody claims altered the intent of ANY voter in ANY way.

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000


Nobody contests that anyone filled in anything different manually from what should have been printed on there in the first place.

Au contrare. From Anita's link: Depositions released in the Seminole case revealed new evidence of intentional fraud. Many of the 2,126 voter ID numbers that GOP operative Michael Leach illegally added to GOP absentee ballot requests proved to be incorrect.

The Republicans are claiming that this is a technicality -- that the original omission of the registration codes was inadvertent, that given time and labor constraints they adopted the only workable way of correcting the problem...

Bull! The moment they realized there was a printing error - waaaaay before Election Day - they should have sent out a "Whoops, we goofed" letter..."we inadvertently neglected to include your voter registration number on your original absentee ballot request form. This information is REQUIRED BY LAW therefore we've corrected the omission and have included it on the enclosed postage-paid postcard. Please sign, date and return this postcard immediately to safeguard your opportunity to vote by mail." See how easy that would have been?

.... that the alternative was to DENY voters their absentee ballots and deliberately disenfranchise them (which would have been even worse).

But - golly, gee - it's okay to deny DEMOCRATIC voters and disenfranchise THEM. We have no qualms about that. IF Gourd extended the "courtesy" of providing the required information on both Republican AND Democratic requests, then I'd say "no big deal. She was non-partisan, no harm, no foul." But that isn't the case. She willingly, knowingly and intentionally broke the law to favor her party to the detriment of the Republican opponent(s). THAT is the issue being litigated.

that the reason he said Gourd "refused" was that she *was not asked*!

DUH! It was ILLEGAL and the Democrats knew it and TOLD Gourd as much but she continued on with her illegal activities nevertheless. THAT is indeed "deceitful and fraudulent".

And if more than 2,000 votes manage to get thrown out because of this, then the Republicans need to accept responsibility for their screw-up without being belly-aching cry-babies and pointing fingers at the Democrats for catching them at it.

And what's with the Republicans wanting it both ways...we want EVERY military vote to count but we don't want ALL of Miami-Dade tallied. Bush knows damn well that the REAL numbers prove him to be the loser which is why he's fighting so hard to prevent the handcounts.

"...come January, we may inaugurate a president (George W. Bush) who not only lost the popular vote by some 340,000 ballots but, if all its votes are counted, also lost Florida, whose 25 electoral votes handed him the White House.

Evidence of the latter is mounting. An analysis conducted for the Miami Herald by an Arizona University professor suggests that if all the thousands of Florida ballots tossed out -- for a variety of reasons -- were counted, Gore would win the state by some 23,000 votes, far more than the 537 votes by which Bush currently leads.

The study, which covered every Florida county and all 5,885 voting precincts, concluded that even if so called "undervotes," those in which no presidential preference was clear or could be reasonably inferred, Gore still would win by about 13,000 votes.

Despite its show of confidence, the Bush camp is playing scared, sitting on a lead and hoping to run out the clock.

And the Republicans have the audacity to call this Election "fair"! So please don't insult me by whining about an election supervisor who got caught breaking the law.

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000



Here's the link for the quoted text above

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000

lolololol. Anita's still campaigning?????? ROFLMAO! Psssss...elections over......

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000

[Many of the 2,126 voter ID numbers that GOP operative Michael Leach illegally added to GOP absentee ballot requests proved to be incorrect.]

This doesn't surprise me. Hurried, massive manual operations like this have a VERY high error rate. But this is not fraud, nor is it anyone's intent (or even *claimed* to be anyone's intent) to defraud anyone.

[Bull! The moment they realized there was a printing error - waaaaay before Election Day - they should have sent out a "Whoops, we goofed" letter..." See how easy that would have been?]

You may be right. Hindsight may be 20-20 sometimes, but not here. You claim they could have corrected this error by a better method. Maybe your method would have been better, we'll never know. Maybe yet a third method of correction would have worked best. But still, nobody is claiming any fraud, or any intent to disenfranchise anyone.

[But - golly, gee - it's okay to deny DEMOCRATIC voters and disenfranchise THEM. ... She willingly, knowingly and intentionally broke the law to favor her party to the detriment of the Republican opponent(s). THAT is the issue being litigated.]

I think you mean the Democratic opponents? Yet the testimony is that the Democratic party did NOT have any such printing error, and as a result no corrections were required. I have not seen any claim that incorrect applications were even SENT to any Democrats, much less that they were deliberately not corrected. Nobody has claimed that a single Democrat who applied for an absentee ballot failed to receive one for this reason.

[THAT is indeed "deceitful and fraudulent".]

But nobody claims this but you! The Democratic lawyer is merely claiming that Republican voters should NOT have been sent absentee ballots because of a printing error on their application forms.

[And if more than 2,000 votes manage to get thrown out because of this, then the Republicans need to accept responsibility for their screw-up without being belly-aching cry-babies and pointing fingers at the Democrats for catching them at it.]

If this is true, then it is AT LEAST as true that Democratic voters who failed to completely punch their chad should be accepting this SAME responsibility. Yet I don't see you acting adult and making this case. Why not?

As for "catching them at it", the testimony is that Hoard made appeals OVER THE RADIO for people to return their applications for correction. This is NOT an attempt to keep something deceitful a secret. It only shows that different avenues were followed in an attempt to correct an error that otherwise would have disenfranchised innocent voters. Don't you care about them?

[And what's with the Republicans wanting it both ways...we want EVERY military vote to count but we don't want ALL of Miami-Dade tallied.]

These are two false statements. Do you care? The law says military votes must EITHER have a postmark, or be signed and dated. One or the other (or both). What the Democrats tried to do is get the envelopes containing these things THROWN OUT for lack of a postmark, BEFORE EVER LOOKING to see if the ballot was signed and dated. And these Democrats managed to get several hundred shredded WITHOUT OPENING THEM before they got caught red-handed and made to open them to see if they were signed and dated. And if they were NEITHER, then they were discarded, according to the law. Please get your facts straight.

As for tallying Miami-Dade, this was done. Twice. What you are asking for (but not honest enough to say so) is that you want these votes counted a THIRD time, but THIS time by different rules favoring Gore. And YOU complain about deceit? BOTH clauses in your statement were deceitful. Again, do you care?

[Bush knows damn well that the REAL numbers prove him to be the loser which is why he's fighting so hard to prevent the handcounts.]

You can read his mind now? No winner has ever wanted a recount, and no winner ever will.

["...come January, we may inaugurate a president (George W. Bush) who not only lost the popular vote by some 340,000 ballots but, if all its votes are counted, also lost Florida, whose 25 electoral votes handed him the White House.]

And come January, world peace might break out and last forever! We have counted Florida's votes twice, and some of them 3 times, and Bush has won every time. Now you want a very selective count, only where Gore is most likely to benefit, and using rules also most likely to benefit Gore, of ballots now badly degraded after being handled so many times by people motivated to alter them -- who just happen to favor Gore in their alterations.

[Despite its show of confidence, the Bush camp is playing scared, sitting on a lead and hoping to run out the clock.]

As would Gore, if the tables were reversed. This is the optimum strategy for the winner to follow, while the loser risks his reputation trying every trick he can dream up to reverse the results.

[So please don't insult me by whining about an election supervisor who got caught breaking the law.]

I laid out the facts as presented in court, by both sides, and described the legal matter at issue. That's what I did. You are trying desperately (and as I detailed above, dishonestly) to convince yourself black is white. You are failing. This is not my fault.

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2000


There are too many holes in your rationale, discrepancies in the facts and distortions of the truth for me to address each and every offense while a roaring fireplace, a good book and a bowl of popcorn await. Much like trying to rationalize with a "christian", this conversation will go nowhere but in circles so why waste my time? I am confident that justice and fairness will prevail and Gore will be in the White House soon enough. Then you can bitch, moan and whine to your hearts content.

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2000

The ballot requests were sent to the voters. The instructions said they were to check the information and sign them and send them in. Can't they read??? Isn't the big joke about the punch ballots the fact that the voters didn't read the instructions to check to make sure the chads were punched out?

Also the documents had been signed by the voters. It is illegal for a non qualified people to change the information on them, no matter the justification they give. Before the signature was attached it was ok for the party to insert information, but not after.

Another point, you talk about dimples not being counted. The ballots that Gore wants checked have ballots where 2 and three corners have been broken and on which the chad may have flipped over the hole preventing the vote to regester. No one has hand counted these ballots to see if even the republicans agreed to requirement has been met, not just ones where there is a tiny indentation.

The Bush camp has no problem with throwing out thousands of ballots that had votes by people who honestly believed they had voted, which may have had a pile of chads under them preventing the chad to be removed completely. Yet the absentee ballots which could be thrown out due to an illegal action on the on the part of republican workers are whined and cried about.

Another point.. you say that there were no democratic ballot requests with the problems that the republicans had. Perhaps not, but there were many which had other problems, many were set aside because the instructions were not followed. Those did not have someone come in and change them to "qualify" for a ballot to be issued. The voters were not even notified that there was a problem with them. These people were no different then the republicans who neglected to read the instructions and verify that their voter regestration numbers were correct.

So many jokes have been made about the punch card voters not reading instructions, yet it was thousands of republicans who didn't bother to check to see if their numbers were correct-even though they had written instructions in front of them, with plenty of time to read everything. The voters who were in the booths had pressure on them to complete their voting so the long lines of people behind them could get in to vote.

Kinda funny that all of the degrading remarks that have been spewed about the punch card voters are suddenly non existent when the republican voters have been found to have made simular mistakes. It was up to the individual, as a matter of fact, the Governer explained on the ballot requests that the voter needed to check the information on the form before they signed them.

The piont of law, which applies in every case where a signature is required, is that the document can not legally be changed by anyone but those who have a legal right to, after the signature is applied. Otherwise it is invalid.

Is there some particular reason why the law should not apply in this case when it the standard in the United States is to follow the law and not ignore it or discount it because the perpitrator has an excuse? Suddenly all the reasons the republicans have given in the past month for laws to be followed and no excuses accepted have been thrown out the window and they are now parroting what the democrats have been saying. Geeze, talk about twisting things for your side.

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2000


Oh geesh, Flint gets drilled a new one by a Potato. Then does the predictable and uses his patented cut and paste+insertion of the "truth by Flint" inbetween the posters comments. Making any worthwhile reply to his dribble a graphical impossibilty. I don't know which is worse..a simple blind meme like Maria, or one like Flint who looks right past direct evidence of election fraud and then spends 16 grammatically masterful paragraphs explaining why he is so, ah, blind?

Way TOO funny all this shit. The Leach deposition is CLASSIC, thank you Anita! Steve Kirsch link is as well a gem. What do you think David? any "facts" around these links?

Oh ya Clinton lied over a BJ God help us, Whhhhaaaahoohehehehe. Here you have Republican sanctioned vote tampering, to the tune of thousands of offenses. Felonies all around.

Democrats were offered the same opportunity? YOU BET DINGBATS and unlike the Republican morons understood the implications and said no thanks to the chance at committing criminal acts. Love the part where Goad turns off her computer and tells Leach "Oh no boy, you do your own work". Then this wench says in open court the whole thing is no biggy, ya OK that flys, not.

Also the part where Richman asks this slimebucket LEACH if the Repubs had advertised their application errors to alert folks, ya right they are gunna do that...hey at least the meatball answered it, blaaahahahaaa.

And what-up with that Victory Suite software program Leach speaks of? Have to look into that one.

Gettin exciting

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2000


"watcha mean. miss?"

"sorry, have a cold".

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2000


Anita,

If those Republican workers broke the law, they should be punished. And it's up to the judge(s) to decide if they did, and if so, what the punishment should be.

The quote about "deliberately created fraud" represents an opinion and an allegation. The judge is going to decide whether those workers did, in fact, "deliberately" commit fraud; that's the whole reason why the case is in court!

I can give you my opinion: throwing out ALL of those votes would be a gross overreaction (not to mention patently unfair to those whose applications weren't questionable), and I doubt the court will do that. That request smacks of politics: by asking that both Democrat AND Republican votes be disallowed, it appears to be "fair" to the general public, but in fact, it's not.

Could the court determine which ballots were actually cast from the bad applications? If so, at worst, they could throw those out -- which would give Gore the lead.

I don't know how this would play out, because I'm not completely familiar with the details of the situation, and one other thing that I've learned from watching these things as I grew up is, the press very rarely gets all of the little details right. They pull interesting and provocative quotes from the players, then try to condense it down into something that'll fit into the paper or a brief broadcast report. Details get lost in the telling.

Interpreting the law in situations is the job of the courts. And in case you're wondering (somehow, I just know these things[g]), I assure you, as long as they do that, I can't complain.

The Florida Supreme Court got thumped on the earlier case for "fashioning" a decision out of whole cloth. Now THAT, I object to.

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2000


I'm getting more and more confused about Seminole County. Their website has a copy of the absentee voter request form. Maybe I missed it, but I saw NOTHING on the form which would indicate whether a voter intended to vote Republican or Democratic. There is a PLACE for the voter to fill in the identification number. In fact, it states that if ALL the information isn't filled in that the application will be void.

Seminole County

I just don't see how there's any such thing as a Republican form or a Democratic form, let alone see how a printer could have LEFT OFF information that specifically states MUST be filled in by the requestor.

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2000


Do you know your voter ID number?

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2000

Anita,

You're a programmer; surely you've run across bugs? It's my understanding that the two sides used different software to pre-print the applications.

The program that pre-printed the forms allegedly left off the voter ID number on the forms in question; that number was then entered by hand after the forms were returned.

Now, think about this: there is nothing in the instructions that states that the form *itself* must be filled out by the requestor; and in fact, if that was the case, then NONE of the pre-printed forms -- Dem or Repub -- would be valid, would they?

Suppose the Dems OR Repubs had chosen to hand-print the applications. They do so, mail them to the voters, which are then returned with valid signatures. Those would have been perfectly legal.

The issue in this case is that the voter ID number was added *after* the signature was emplaced, not before.

Cases like this are difficult for most in the general public to understand, because you're dealing with very picky details. After reading the material at that site and examining the form itself, I believe the court will probably do what happened in that sheriff's case in 1996: they'll accept the ballots, but severely scold (or remote chance: punish) the workers who entered the ID numbers by hand.

This is a tempest in a teacup.

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2000


The dem lawyer told the judge that he first learned of this on October 30 (through a televised broadcast of the county office explaining the "technicality") and didn't do anything about it because it was too late. Hmmmm, it was too late in October before the election and we're now into December more than four weeks after the election; things that make you want to go hmmmm.

Doc, LOL, it amazes me that you can dress yourself!

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2000


Stephen:

I understand what the press is saying about this. However, I find absolutely nothing in the Florida code to suggest that the voter ID number can be put on the application by anyone other than the person requesting the application. It's part of the identification process included in 13:

Section 13 provides procedures for requesting absentee ballots and mandates that electors, or a person making a request for an absentee ballot on behalf of an elector, must provide certain identifying information such as social security numbers and voter ID numbers. This provision should be implemented immediately. However, absentee ballot requests received prior to August 14, 1998, and requests from overseas voters pursuant to 42 U.S.C. 1973 ff, should be treated under 1997 Florida Law. See §§ 101.62, 101.694, Fla. Stat.

Florida Election questions and answers

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2000


I agree with Stephen on this. Let's let the courts decide what damage was done, if any, and what the remedy should be, if any.

I was just trying to describe what happend and why, and what was done about it and why, and who was affected and how. My reading is:

There was a printing error, through nobody's fault. It affected only applications sent to Republican voters.

The Republican workers did all they could think of to correct this error. Perhaps they could have done more, or done it differently. What they did was technically illegal.

As a result, nobody was disenfranchised or damaged, and nobody is claiming anyone was. The number of votes for BOTH candidates, as far as anyone can tell, is *exactly* what it would have been had no error occurred to begin with. The repairs were effective, but not legal.

The Plaintiffs in this case claim, correctly, that IF the Republicans had insisted on being strictly legal in making these repairs, THEN some number of Republican voters would have been unable to obtain absentee ballots. These unfortunate voters had only two choices -- to receive a ballot illegally, or to receive no ballot at all. Their votes should be thrown out on the grounds that they cast illegally received ballots.

The Defendents in this case claim that their method of correcting their error did no harm to anyone, whereas denying thousands of people their right to vote would have done great harm.

OK, let the courts decide. I personally find it hard to believe a circuit court will reverse a Presidential election by deliberately disenfranchising selected voters when no harm was actually done to anyone. But we shall see. Judge Clark was passed over for promotion by Jeb Bush last year. Could that influence her impartial judgment? Nahhh...

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2000


I agree with Stephen on this. Let's let the courts decide what damage was done, if any, and what the remedy should be, if any.

Isn't it odd how those courts never call to ask for our opinion?

-- Anonymous, December 08, 2000


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