UmmaGumma-or where the hell am I?

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I wake up this morning in a country that has lost its mind. That is something I know a little about. While I always knew people could not think for themselves, I am still flabbergasted at what passes for the "truth" today.

This election season was the epitome of how the internet, and grassroots viral "marketing" made so many folks believe so much hogwash about the Democrats. I have to hand it to the Republicans-they did a wonderful job of making allegations and half truths stand as truth. They made a tower of babel out of a presidential blow job which was lied about-spinning that into saying the democratic party stood for impurity, and our puritan country fell for it.

These folks portrayed alledged rapes and alledged sexual abuse into condemnations for behavior never adjudicated-and people believed it, even though the man was never convicted. These folks believed something called the "Clinton Body Count"-as if mere association proves guilt-and people spun this, even though there was no charges brought in any of these cases. There would have to be a cover up of such mass proportions if any of this were true-same reason I never believed the Y2K hype-there could not be a conspiracy that large.

But hey, I saw it on the internet so it must be true-so e-mail after e-mail it was propogated-e-mail after e-mail about how Clinton, and by proxy, Gore sold out to China-Again, if this were true, it would be HIGH TREASON and would have been the best reason to impeach the president.

But I read it on the internet, and I passed it to my friends because it must be true.

It was a wonderful marketing effort, by operatives like Matt Drudge and worldnetdaily-the national enquirer and The Star of the internet-but

It was published in those places, so it must be true.

I guess I have to accept this-I know that I could probably find how I am six degrees of seperation from all the bodies killed by Clinton, but hey-it does not matter if it is true or not.

There has been a puritanical revolution in this country, a quelling of the spirit of free thought-and because they world has gotten increasingly chaotic-because teenagers are killing their own, because the machines are growing faster than we can understand them, because the modern world has all of a sudden goten frightening-and in these times people revert-revert back to some kind of opiate-the opiate of christian morals-

and in this election what did we have? A choice between two born-again christians. How appropriate. Either way we slice it, we are going to get some mo of that good old-time religion.

I am sure you folks here will have a field day with this, but I saw in closing congratulations to the republican spinmeisters-you have got the people believing all that nonsense-but in the end the truth will come out-no politician, as Flint says, can claim the high ground.

It will come out that the election was stolen in Florida. Mark my words-In the meantime, for those who choose to believe allegations and half truths, please learn to think for yourself.

-- SydBarret (dark@side.moon), December 05, 2000

Answers

Although there is a kernel of truth in that rant, the dross is all but drowning it out.

-- butt nugget (catsbutt@umailme.com), December 05, 2000.

Define "stolen".

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), December 05, 2000.

It's been a month since the election. In that time there could have been a careful and thorough manual recount of the vote in every county in Florida -- the best way we could have known who actually won in an election as extremely close as this one has been.

I think Gore actually got the most votes in Florida, but of course that's just my own opinion. We're never going to know. The Republicans turned down Gore's offer of a statewide manual recount which could have already been completed, and at the same time have accused Gore of wanting to count, recount and recount again. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but no manual recounts have been included in Florida's certified vote count.

This thing could have already been over with--and with as much accuracy as possible--if the Republicans had accepted Gore's offer which I think was quite fair. Instead, they've blocked recounts in any and every way they could.

I believe both Bush and Gore could have been effective leaders of this country, but I also think it was in the best interests of the country for the winner of this election to have legitimacy. A lack of legitimacy will weaken whoever does get in--most likely Bush of course.

And let's hope this doesn't end up being decided by a new Senate composed of 50 Democrats and 50 Republicans. In the interests of legitimacy, this should have been settled by the most accurate vote count possible, and not by the legislature or the courts.

Time has run out for a statewide manual recount, however. The Republicans have won the PR battle but haven't won legitimacy for their favorite son.

-- (Observ@tion.exercise), December 06, 2000.


Syd,

You wrote, "A choice between two born-again christians".

Al Gore may CLAIM to be a born-again Christian, but his walk belies the truth. Al Gore sold his soul years ago for power in the liberal, anti-gun, pro-death, Democrat Party. It didn't set too well with the folks in his home state of Tennessee, though. In fact, if Al Gore had carried his OWN HOME STATE, he would not have needed to win Florida.

That is poetic justice. Sell your constituents out for power, and then they come back and bite you in the butt when you need them the most. I LOVE IT.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), December 06, 2000.

Syd,

You speak foolishness but guess where you speak it---on the Internet! And congratulations, at least your foolishness is in your own words, not a copy and paste like most of us do.

-- (Paracelsus@Pb.Au), December 06, 2000.



I know if I stick with this thread that somebody is going to actualy SAY something.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), December 06, 2000.

Syd, you sure do sound like Future Shock, so I must wonder if in fact Ye are He. Regardless, your ‘take’ on the overall state of affairs should be respected. However, your ability to reason appears to be shot to hell. I must assume you are not too successful in your ‘working’ life- a certain trait of the democratic ‘support me’ party. What the heck, if everyone were self-achievers the democratic '‘good ship lollypop’ would disappear into oblivion.

-- Barry (bchbear863@cs.com), December 06, 2000.

Syd isn't Future Shock, Barry.

Syd, I had an 'aha' while reading your message and am now aware of what your old handle was. Maybe you should let them know you're not an atheist.

-- (Observ@tion.exercise), December 06, 2000.


"There has been a puritanical revolution in this country, a quelling of the spirit of free thought-..."

The spirit of free thought was quelled when PCism ran rampant(still does) and was spurred by the liberals.

If ya really wanted free thinking,a vote for the Libertarians would have been a quantum step/leap forward.

Just for the record,Gore on one hand,states that requests for recounts(as per FL law) could have been made by the Republicans within the designated timeframe but they did not choose to do so,then offers to recount the whole state after the lawful deadline and made the offer when it was not his to offer,his offers cannot supercede Fl law.

I do agree this is a wacky mess,but could have been easily averted with a little common sense,of wich neither of those two political parties possess,let alone integrity or honesty.The entire state SHOULD have been recounted,but with strict standards applied to both parties and without knee jerk hurry up's and the likes of Jesse Jackson clouding the issues.A 48 hour "timeout" should have been the 1st move made by the FL Supreme Court,all ballots should have been immediately moved to a central location for counting and had a systematic,honest evaluation of the ballots by groups of non-partisan personell.

Just my 2¢

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), December 06, 2000.


Nicely stated, Syd. Thanks!

-- You (ReadMe@HowAboutIt.com), December 06, 2000.


Observ@tion.exercise,

Is Syd al-d?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), December 06, 2000.

Good post, Syd.

I think there is a growing movement toward the middle in this country. People are tired of the politics of polarization and increasingly seek a middle ground. Because of this, a lot of people on both the right and the left are outraged and feeling increasingly disenfranchised. On the left, they took their rage out on Seattle during the WTO conference. On the right, they made up lies about how Clinton was the next best thing to the anti-Christ.

At some point, our national zeit geist will swing back to the left for a time, then to the right, then, once again, for a brief time, back to the middle. We've seen this several times in our history, periods of big social change and reform followed by a strong conservatism followed by a period of centrism. In the meantime, look for more furious rhetoric from both ends of the political spectrum. The left will express outrage that Bush was elected without the popular vote. The right will be furious when their fair-haired boy turns out to be more centrist than they would like. It will be interesting to see if the left manages to "Clintonize" Bush. I think whether or not they do, Bush's presidency will resemble Eisenhower's, a small period of centrism before the pendulum starts swinging again.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithotua.net), December 06, 2000.


Ravings of an exasperated partisan aside, Syd's pleading in his last line speaks volumes:

please learn to think for yourself

please learn to think for yourself

please learn to think for yourself

please learn to think for yourself

Hope you feel better soon, Syd. Detachment, buddy. Is it worth all this angst to play make-believe? Like you or I really have a role to play in the little game? Not from my vantage point. But, to each his own.

Best - Rich

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 06, 2000.


Is syd al-d?

LMAO.....

-- sumer (shh@aol.con), December 06, 2000.


Is Syd al-d?

Nope. You're not even close. Syd was one of the people who last year were sometimes known as 'pollys.'

No more clues, though. Your secret's safe with me, Syd. Shine on you crazy diamond.

-- (Observ@tion.exercise), December 06, 2000.



Syd is Syd. We're all just parts of the whole, grains of sand on the one great beach. Hmm, maybe I'm FutureShock.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 06, 2000.

OKAY! I admit it! I am Al-d!

You always suspected it. Now you know.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingignthroughthejunglewithouta.net), December 06, 2000.


And maybe I am the queen of England!

-- Elizabeth (her@royal.majesty), December 06, 2000.

I always did suspect it.

-- butt nugget (catsbutt@umailme.com), December 06, 2000.

Tarzan, you are not al-d. You capitalized his name. That's a no-no. If it were not for that one little slip-up, I might have believed you.

"Get your red hot Brooklyn Bridge, Brooklyn Bridge for sale"

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 06, 2000.


a Gift idea for J...Compassionate Conservatism: What it is, What it Does, and How it Can Transform America by Marvin Olasky, Foreword by George W Bush

Who is Marvin Olasky? Editor of World magazine. Who is World Magazine? Another Moonie(Unification Church)PR rag pitching the New World Order is what it is. Here go educate yourself J...clunk me

Btw, the Moonies think Jesus Christ a failure and their boy the reverend Moon here to finish the job Jesus didn't. They also think all you American women whores.

Oh ya, another Moonie supporter is Michael "very independent" Reagan....click here. He be the son of the legendary Big Spender Ron Sr.

Who is the Washington Times? another Moonie owned rag.

Be swell if someday the folks running around claiming to be for all that is good and decent WOKE the FUCK UP and researched the scumballs they listen to. You are being sold a pack of lies wrapped in all that appears good and decent.

Bush, Sr or Jr represent Multi-National Corporations,,,NOT YOU. They are ANTI-Chrisitan but claim otherwise while supporting folks who are clearly anti-christian.

Why did Junior write the intro to Olasky's book?

Why does Michael Reagan support the Washington Times with his supporters dollars by way of advertising on this Moonie owned and run flith?

and Why are you people so blind to all this?

are the Moonies Christian?

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), December 06, 2000.


"There has been a puritanical revolution in this country, a quelling of the spirit of free thought-and because they world has gotten increasingly chaotic-because teenagers are killing their own, because the machines are growing faster than we can understand them, because the modern world has all of a sudden goten frightening-and in these times people revert-revert back to some kind of opiate-the opiate of christian morals-..."

Syd, has it occurred to you that YOU are seeing these things because YOU are hanging out on the internet conversing with the same people (on both sides) who made such a teapot tempest out of Y2K? Do you know anyone *personally* (i.e. in the REAL world) who gets their news from WorldNet? How many real people do you know who would know Matt Drudge from Mike Judge?

Do you really think votes were swung by the Clinton bodycount crap? Did you ever hear anyone parroting the Gore lie/exaggeration angle who would have voted for Gore under any circumstance anyway?

I suggest that you get off the internet for a couple of days. Talk to normal people for a change. Get a flavor for thins outside of cyberspace. And whatever you do, don't read that post about the Moonies - talk about yer crazy diamonds!!

-- RC (randyxpher@aol.com), December 06, 2000.


Doc Paulie, what evidence can you offer that World Magaznie is run by the Unification Church? Also, what is the relevance of the article you linked to?

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), December 06, 2000.

Doc Paulie,

I never fail to get a chuckle from your rambling rants. I can't help but picture you with a crazed look in your eye as you type in your diatribe du jour. Today you wrote, "They are ANTI- Christian but claim otherwise while supporting folks who are clearly anti-christian".

It sounds like a critique of the pro-death duo Bubba Clinton and Robo-Al Gore got mixed up in your head while writing today's blast at the Bush's. You see, Doc, it is Clinton and Gore who CLAIM to be Christians while finding it just peachy to take a perfectly healthy baby and kill it before her head clears the birth canal. According to them, that way it's not MURDER, it's a CHOICE.

Why don't "YOU WAKE the F**K UP and research the scumballs you listen to"?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), December 06, 2000.

Doc Paulie, according to Marvin Olasky's biography, he is an elder at the Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Austin, TX. Redeemer is a member Church of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA). Again, how do you come up with you accusation that World Magazine is an arm of the Unification Church?

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), December 06, 2000.

BTW, here is a link to World Magazine which is excellent and is in no way associated with the Unification Church.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), December 06, 2000.

With all due respect to J, he's just done something so classically Christian I can't help but comment on it.

Why, someone please tell me, are Christians the only group who claim to be able to evaluate the sincerity of the faith of others? You never see Muslims saying, "Why, Akbar's only claiming to be a Muslim," or Hindus saying, "Sanjay's not a real Hindu!". Why is it that Christians seem to feel so compelled to attack the faith of those they disagree with?

I say that we can't know what's in someone else's heart and head. If someone claims to be a Christian (or a Muslim, Hindu, or atheist for that matter) the only thing we can do is take their word for it and remember that we don't always have to like or agree with those who share our faith (or lack thereof) and even when we are shocked and disgusted by their actions, those actions don't reflect on others who share their faith.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), December 06, 2000.


I messed up the link so here it is again World Magazine.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), December 06, 2000.

Tarzan, you ask "Why, someone please tell me, are Christians the only group who claim to be able to evaluate the sincerity of the faith of others? You never see Muslims saying, "Why, Akbar's only claiming to be a Muslim," or Hindus saying, "Sanjay's not a real Hindu!". Why is it that Christians seem to feel so compelled to attack the faith of those they disagree with? "

This is true, but there are relatively few Muslims or Hindus in this country. I wonder if you lived in Iran or India you would hear such a thing?

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), December 06, 2000.


How do you know I haven't lived in India and traveled extensively through the Middle East?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), December 06, 2000.

Tarzan, you might have. Have you?

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), December 06, 2000.

Tarzan,

Don't listen to how they talk the talk; watch how they walk the walk.

Or do you believe that if I say that aliens from the planet Balthar come to Earth to take me for joy rides back and forth to their home galaxy far, far away, then it really happens? After all, since I "claim to be a space traveler, the only thing that you can do is take my word for it".

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), December 06, 2000.

Never lived in India, though I have worked for an Indian company and been the only American in my department. When you're at the end of a twelve hour day you get to talking, and culture enters into the conversation quite naturally. I have been to Mumbai (what the British called Bombay) and Hydrabad. I have traveled pretty extensively in the Middle East as well, though I count more Hindus than Muslims among my close friends.

In general, in my experience, Muslims are more interested in their differences than Hindus but even they don't accuse other Muslims of not being actual Muslims. Hindus are very relaxed about their religious differences, but are more likely to get incensed in discussions of caste. Here's a tip: do not EVER bring up the caste system when talking with a group of Indians, particularly if you notice that some eat chicken and some don't. There's a reason why, but if you ask, they'll only end up arguing with each other. It isn't pretty.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), December 06, 2000.


I have a friend who works with several Hindus and finds them pretty easy to get along with. The Muslims he works with are harder to have an understanding relationship with.

As far as Christians who are quick to jump on others for not being real Christian goes: We are dealing with 20th/21st century American Christians. I wonder what we would find if we had a time machine and could visit Christians who lived in a totally different culture?

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), December 06, 2000.


J-

If you claim that aliens take you to Balthar, you can offer external proof, since the experience of being a space traveler is an external one. The experience of religion is solely internal, therefore, you can never offer external proof. You may look at one person's actions and claim that, based on those actions, they are or are not a Christian, but the fact remains that only they know for certain. For instance, every year I serve up xmas dinner at our local feed the homeless event. People praise me as a Christian often, yet the fact remains that I am not one. These people look at my external actions (at least the ones they can see) and from there, make a judgement that I'm a Christian, just as you are attempting to do with Clinton. They are inaccurate and it's likely that you are, too.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), December 06, 2000.


Dr. Pibb-

I think it would vary from time to time and place to place. The early Puritans were certainly quite intolerant, while the men and women of the founder's time were themselves quite tolerant.

I think there's a certain seige mentality among fundamentalist Christians. If you read much of their writings, you'll find that they often discuss suffering persecution in this country, as though they were be actively prevented from following their religion. There's a certain amount of victimhood they indulge in. This is not to lump all Christians together, I'm only speaking of the extreme right-leaning fundamental types.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), December 06, 2000.


...no politician, as Flint says, can claim the high ground. This was the only wise thing said.

Mar.

-- Not now, not like this (AgentSmith0110@aol.com), December 06, 2000.


Tarzan,

You wrote, "The experience of religion is solely internal, therefore, you can never offer external proof".

I disagree. The experience that some have with God may be internal, but the Christian religion has many external aspects. If someone is claiming to be a Christian, yet espouses all kinds of doctrine and/or beliefs and/or behaviors that are contrary to the teachings in the Bible (which is the written foundation for the Christian religion), then he is not a Christian. The Bible does not just give us instruction on how to feel internally, but it also gives us instruction on how to act externally.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), December 06, 2000.

I think there's a certain seige mentality among fundamentalist Christians. If you read much of their writings, you'll find that they often discuss suffering persecution in this country, as though they were be actively prevented from following their religion. There's a certain amount of victimhood they indulge in. This is not to lump all Christians together, I'm only speaking of the extreme right-leaning fundamental types. Tarzan

I have to agree with you about many fundamentalists. While I am sure there are a few instances of real persecution within our borders, I think many of them have some kind of complex.

It is also important to realize that there are many types of fundamentalists and unfortunately the more extreme (and self- promoting) ones get the media attention.

I think their claims of persecution are an insult to Christians in other countries who endure real persectuion.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), December 06, 2000.


It's all a matter of perspective, J. For instance, the Bible says nothing against abortion but has quite a bit to say against judgement and condemnation. You condemn Clinton for espousing a pro-choice point of view. Who's the real Christian then?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), December 06, 2000.

One more point, J.

The Bible gives a lot of instruction on how to act. For instance, the Bible tells us not to eat certain foods, wear mixed fiber clothing, consort with women who are menstruating. The Bible also tells us that if our daughters are raped, the matter can be settled by the marriage of the rapist to his victim.

Do YOU live by all these rules, J?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), December 06, 2000.


Ape-dude,

Leviticus is full of good stuff to throw back in the face of scripture quoting fundies.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), December 06, 2000.


No eating lobsters or fishes without scales, right?

cin could go for that. {cin, do you eat shrimp?}

-- flora (***@__._), December 06, 2000.


Y'know, Deedah, it wouldn't be such a bad thing if they followed ALL of Leviticus. I don't endorse that sort of strict fundamentalism, but I would have to give them points for internal consistancy. But those who quote, say, Leviticus' prohibition against homosexuality but ignore the imposition of the death penalty against children who curse their parents, well...

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), December 06, 2000.

Tarzan & Uncle Deedah,

The Law of the Old Testament was fulfilled with Christ's crucifixion, death, and resurrection. It has been completed.

This does not change the fact that advocating the killing of unborn babies is not Christ-like. Nor, Tarzan, does it mean that someone can say one thing, act contrarily, and that somehow his words mean something when his actions do not.

To specifically get back to Doc Paulie's rant: for him to say that Bush claims to be a Christian while acting in an anti-Christian way, while ignoring the obvious contradiction of Clinton and Gore claiming to be Christians while advocating the gruesome murder of the unborn through partial birth abortion, is the apex of hypocrisy.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), December 06, 2000.

Excerpts from: "George W. Bush: A Charge to Keep"

Actually, the seeds of my decision had been planted the year before, by the Reverend Billy Graham. He visited my family for a summer weekend in Maine. I saw him preach at the small summer church, St. Ann's by the Sea. We all had lunch on the patio overlooking the ocean. (p. 136)

One evening my dad asked Billy to answer questions from a big group of family gathered for the weekend. He sat by the fire and talked. And what he said sparked a change in my heart. I don't remember the exact words. It was more the power of his example. The Lord was so clearly reflected in his gentle and loving demeanor. (p. 136)

The next day we walked and talked at Walker's Point, and I knew I was in the presence of a great man. He was like a magnet; I felt drawn to seek something different. He didn't lecture or admonish; he shared warmth and concern. Billy Graham didn't make you feel guilty; he made you feel loved. (p. 136)

Over the course of that weekend, Reverend Graham planted a mustard seed in my soul, a seed that grew over the next year. He led me to the path, and I began walking. It was the beginning of a change in my life. (p. 136)

I had always been a "religious" person, had regularly attended church, even taught Sunday School and served as an altar boy. But that weekend my faith took on a new meaning. It was the beginning of a new walk where I would commit my heart to Jesus Christ. (p. 136)

I was humbled to learn that God sent His Son to die for a sinner like me. I was comforted to know that through the Son, I could find God's amazing grace, a grace that crosses every border, every barrier and is open to everyone. Through the love of Christ's life, I could understand the life changing powers of faith. (p. 136)

When I returned to Midland, I began reading the Bible regularly. Don Evans talked me into joining him and another friend, Don Jones, at a men's community Bible study. The group had first assembled the year before, in Spring of 1984, at the beginning of the downturn in the energy industry. (p. 136-7)

Midland was hurting. A lot of people were looking for comfort and strength and direction. A couple of men started the Bible study as a support group, and it grew. By the time I began attending, in the fall of 1985, almost 120 men would gather. We met in small discussion groups of ten or twelve, then joined the larger group for full meetings. (p. 137)

Don Jones picked me up every week for the meetings. I remember looking forward to them. My interest in reading the Bible grew stronger and stronger, and the words became clearer and more meaningful. We studied Acts, the story of the Apostles building the Christian Church, and next year, the Gospel of Luke. The preparation for each meeting took several hours, reading the Scripture passages and thinking through responses to discussion questions. I took it seriously, with my usual touch of humor.... (p. 137)

Laura and I were active members of the First Methodist Church of Midland, and we participated in many family programs, including James Dobson's Focus on the Family series on raising children. As I studied and learned, Scripture took on greater meaning, and gained confidence and understanding in my faith. I read the Bible regularly. Don Evans gave me the "one-year" Bible, a Bible divided into 365 daily readings, each one including a section from the New Testament, the Old Testament, Psalms, and Proverbs. I read through that Bible every other year. During the years in between, I pick different chapters to study at different times. (p. 137-8)

I have also learned the power of prayer. I pray for guidance. I do not pray for earthly things, but for heavenly things, for wisdom and patience and understanding. My faith gives me focus and perspective. It teaches humility. But I also recognize that faith can be misinterpreted in the political process. Faith is an important part of my life. I believe it is important so I live my faith, not flaunt it. (p. 138)

America is a great country because of our religious freedoms. It is important for any leader to respect the faith of others. That point was driven home when Laura and I visited Israel in 1998. We had traveled to Rome to spend Thanksgiving with our daughter, who was attending a school program there, and spent three days in Israel on the way home. It was an incredible experience. I remember waking up at the Jerusalem Hilton and opening the curtains and seeing the Old City before us, the Jerusalem stone glowing gold. We visited the Western Wall and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. And we went to the Sea of Galilee and stood atop the hill where Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount. It was an overwhelming feeling to stand in the spot where the most famous speech in the history of the world was delivered, the spot where Jesus outlined the character and conduct of a believer and gave his disciples and the world the beatitudes, the golden rule, and the Lord's Prayer. (p. 138)

Our delegation included four gentile governors-one Methodist, two Catholics, and a Mormon, and several Jewish-American friends. Someone suggested we read Scripture. I chose to read "Amazing Grace," my favorite hymn. Later that night we all gathered at restaurant in Tel Aviv for dinner before we boarded our middle-of-night flight back to America. We talked about the wonderful experiences and thanked the guides and government officials who had introduced us to their country. And toward the end of the meal, one of our friends rose to share a story, to tell us how he, a gentile, and his friend, a Jew, had (unbeknownst to the rest of us) walked down to the Sea of Galilee, joined hands underwater, and prayed together, on bended knee. Then out of his mouth came a hymn he had known as a child, a hymn he hadn't thought about in years. (p. 138)

He got every word right:

"Now is the time approaching, by prophets long foretold, when all shall dwell together, One Shepherd and one fold. Now Jew and gentile, meeting, from many a distant shore, around an altar kneeling, one common Lord adore. "

"Faith changes lives. I know, because faith has changed mine." - George W. Bush (p. 139)

I could not be governor if I did not believe in a divine plan that supersedes all human plans. Politics is a fickle business. Polls change. Today's friend is tomorrow's adversary. People lavish praise and attention. Many times it is genuine; sometimes it is not. Yet I build my life on a foundation that will not shift. My faith frees me. Frees me to put the problem of the moment in proper perspective. Frees me to make decisions that others might not like. Frees me to try to do the right thing, even though it may not poll well...

The death penalty is a difficult issue for supporters as well as its opponents. I have a reverence for life; my faith teaches that life is a gift from your Creator. In a perfect world, life is given by God and only taken by God. I hope someday our society will respect life, the full spectrum of life, from the unborn to the elderly. I hope someday unborn children will be protected by law and welcomed in life. (p. 147)

I support the death penalty because I believe, if administered swiftly and justly, capital punishment is a deterrent against future violence and will save other innocent lives. Some advocates of life will challenge why I oppose abortion yet support the death penalty. To me, it's the difference between innocence and guilt. (p. 147)

Today, two weeks after Jebs inauguration, in my church in downtown Austin, Pastor Mark Craig, was telling me that my re-election was the first Governor to win back-to-back, four-year terms in the history of the State of Texas. It was a beginning, not an end.... (p. 8)

People are starved for faithfulness. He talked of the need for honesty in government. He warned that leaders who cheat on their wives will cheat their country, will cheat their colleagues, will cheat themselves. Pastor Craig said that America is starved for honest leaders. (p. 8)

He told the story of Moses, asked by God to lead his people to a land of milk and honey. Moses had a lot of reasons to shirk the task. As the Pastor told it, Moses' basic reaction was, "Sorry, God, I'm busy. I've got a family. I've got sheep to tend. I've got a life. "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt? The people won't believe me, he protested. I'm not a very good speaker. Oh, my Lord, send, I pray, some other person," Moses pleaded. But God did not, and Moses ultimately did His bidding, leading his people through forty years of wilderness and wandering, relying on God for strength and direction and inspiration. (p. 9)

People are "starved for leadership," Pastor Craig said, "starved for leaders who have ethical and moral courage. "It is not enough to have an ethical compass to know right from wrong, he argued. America needs leaders who have the moral courage to do what is right for the right reason. It's not always easy or convenient for leaders to step forward, he acknowledged. Remember, even Moses had doubts. (p. 9)

"He was talking to you," my mother later said. The pastor was, of course, talking to all of us, challenging each one of us to make the most of our lives, to assume the mantle of leadership and responsibility wherever we find it. He was calling on us to use whatever power we have, in business, in politics, in our communities, and in our families, to do good for the right reason. And his sermon spoke directly to my heart and my life.... (p. 9)

During the more than half century of my life, we have seen an unprecedented decay in our American culture, a decay that has eroded the foundations of our collective values and moral standards of conduct. (p. 229)

Our sense of personal responsibility has declined dramatically, just as the role and responsibility of the federal government have increased. The changing culture blurred the sharp contrast between right and wrong and created a new standard of conduct: "If it feels good, do it." and "If you've got a problem, blame somebody else.'" "Individuals are not responsible for their actions," the new culture has said. "We are all victims of forces beyond our control." We have gone from a culture of sacrifice and saving to a culture obsessed with grabbing all the gusto. We went from accepting responsibility to assigning blame. As government did more and more, individuals were required to do less and less. The new culture said: if people were poor, the government should feed them. If someone had no house, the government should provide one. If criminals are not responsible for their acts, then the answers are not prisons, but social programs.... (p. 229)

For our culture to change, it must change one heart, one soul, and one conscience at a time. Government can spend money, but it cannot put hope in our hearts or a sense of purpose in our lives. This is done by churches and synagogues and mosques that warm the cold of life. They are the quiet river of goodness and kindness that cuts through stone. Some call their efforts crumbs of compassion. I say they are the greatness of America. (p. 232)

But government should welcome the active involvement of people who are following a religious imperative to love their neighbors through after school programs, child care, drug treatment, maternity group homes, and a range of other services. Supporting these men and women - the soldiers in the armies of compassion - is the next bold step of welfare reform, because I know that changing hearts will change our entire society. (p. 232)

During the opening months of my presidential campaign, I have traveled our country and my heart has been warmed. My experiences have reinvigorated my faith in the greatness of Americans. They have reminded me that societies are renewed from the bottom up, not the top down. Everywhere I go, I see people of love and faith, taking time to help a neighbor in need. These people and thousands like them are the heart and soul and greatness of America. And I want to do my part. I am running for President because I believe America must seize this moment, America must lead. We must give our prosperity a greater purpose, a purpose of peace and freedom and hope. We are a great nation of good and loving people. And together, we have a charge to keep. (p. 242-3)

-- (interesting@excerpts.from Bush), December 06, 2000.


Hi Flora...

Actually, I tried shrimp but don't care for the texture. LOVE scallops though. But don't really partake.

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), December 06, 2000.


The Law of the Old Testament was fulfilled with Christ's crucifixion, death, and resurrection. It has been completed.

That's a matter of some debate, J. Matthew 5:18-19, "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

This does not change the fact that advocating the killing of unborn babies is not Christ-like.

Says you, J. Of course, if Christ would have had anything to say about abortion, you wouldn't have have had to resort to this tactic.

Nor, Tarzan, does it mean that someone can say one thing, act contrarily, and that somehow his words mean something when his actions do not.

Once again, you do not know what is in someone's head, or heart, or even their actions 24 X 7. All you know is what you read in the news.

To specifically get back to Doc Paulie's rant: for him to say that Bush claims to be a Christian while acting in an anti-Christian way, while ignoring the obvious contradiction of Clinton and Gore claiming to be Christians while advocating the gruesome murder of the unborn through partial birth abortion, is the apex of hypocrisy.

Actually, the apex of hypocrisy is for anyone to claim that they know what a stranger's spiritual life is like. The apex of arrogance is for a single individual to claim that they alone can define what actions are acceptable in a religion with millions of adherents.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), December 06, 2000.


Oysters, cin?

-- flora (***@__._), December 06, 2000.

Yep-dis place startin to look jus like de ol place. This thread is going all over de place. Hot jive.

Paracelsus:

Thank you for your opinion. It is greatly appreciated. But the IMPORTANT thing you said is that I was not "cut and paste". I do not only talk the talk(think for yourself). I walk the walk.

Barry:

Whatever gives you the belief I am not successful. They may have locked me up all those years ago,, but I am fine, now, and Roger loved me, and made sure I received royalties. And why do you people keep confusing me with FutureShock? Maybe it was that vulcan mind meld I had with him-I was wondering why my head hurt so much this time last week.

Observation exercise:

Nope, not an atheist.

J:

Al-D-interesting observation. Not even close. Never owned a duck in my life-ate a few, though.

RC:

Now you claims bear a bit of scrutiny, oh wise one. I am not glued to the internet 12 hours a day. I talk to REAL people every day, all over the country. The repubs have a full multi-channel marketing apparatus in place. Radio, TV evangelists, print-they have it all. My foolish dross is the result of this observation-the speed at which misinformation travels the internet is phenomenal-with six degrees of speration, you are never more than 6 e-mail strings away from receiving the next urban legend. It is mighty presumptuous of you to disclaim my argument by a flip of the keyboard by saying-"Dont get out much, huh?"

-- SydBarret (dark@side.moon), December 06, 2000.


Hey J,

"To specifically get back to Doc Paulie's rant: for him to say that Bush claims to be a Christian while acting in an anti-Christian way, while ignoring the obvious contradiction of Clinton and Gore claiming to be Christians while advocating the gruesome murder of the unborn through partial birth abortion, is the apex of hypocrisy."

When did I mention Gore or Clinton? Problem is you live in the DARK sir. You are lost in Idolatry. You live at a basic thinking level of either/or-black/white-yes/no-true/false. Thus you conclude like all in the dark do that anyone NOT on their side, is the other side.

Hell just YESTERDAY I blasted a sitting LIBERAL ICON, Camille Paglia into orbit, ya miss it?

Why bother pounding the boring Clinton is a sinner Al Gore lies as habit noise? Who is not sick to high heaven with that crap? Ya Al Gore is a Politician, deal with it, they LIE alot, Grow-up. Yes Bill Clinton is a scumbag....yawn yawn yawn. Yes Newt Gingrich is a lowlife scumball...yawn, yawn, yawn.

Glad I amuse you J. Most find me strange at best. I don't fit the mold. I blast BS from all sides.

Dismantling Liberals is CHILD'S PLAY. Unfortunately they do not usually wrap themselves in things HOLY like the hucksters from the RIGHT. Thus many like yourself J are majorly confused. You actually think GW Bush gives a crap about what is right?

Here is a guy who does not even understand WHY we have a seperation of Church and State in this country. A guy who will erase many of these lines and thus WEAKEN Religion, not strengthen it. Are you concerned? Has the prior 2 centuries of precedance been a major mistake? Should we return to a ChurchState like our Founding Fathers left back in England? one which was soundly rejected and was the reason for this country?

A guy who for a month has fought a 3 county hand recount allowed by Florida State law? A guy so arrogant, so spoiled rotten by priviledge he just acts as if he is now the Prez? Has the balls to say the people have spoken when he lost the Popular Vote by 300,000 freaking votes? Sits in Florida with a lead of 500? In an election where THOUSANDS of votes are in dispute? Relies upon a certified election by a GOP insider which was subsequently been tossed out by the Florida Supreme Court?

Who is jerking who here?

Freaking Conservatives are amazing in your blindness, your hypocrisy.

Again, please do try and WAKE-UP to TRUTH, it will set you free.

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), December 07, 2000.


>> the speed at which misinformation travels the internet is phenomenal <<

Yup. My sig file says: "Thanks to the Internet, misinformation now travels faster than ever before!"

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), December 07, 2000.


Syd, I accuse you of nothing I've not been guilty of at times my own self. My point is only that when thing like this are stated...

"Thanks to the Internet, misinformation now travels faster than ever before!"

... that it's vitally important that we don't overestimate how many "real" people are actually reading the misinformation. It's an appallingly easy thing to do.

-- RC (randyxpher@aol.com), December 07, 2000.


Thank you, RC. I genuinely believe there is some kind of concern on your part. But I still beg to differ about how many people are "reading this stuff". The love bug virus earlier this year was a perfect example of how rapidly e-mail strings grow. There are many types of bots that harvest e-mail addresses and make it very easy to spread viruses and disinformation. How many times now have you received the university diploma spam?

Anyway. Have a nice day.

-- SydBarrett (dark@side.moon), December 07, 2000.


I perhaps should have said "reading AND believing".

How many times has the Clinton-bodycount thing gone around the Net in the past 5 years?

I see no indication that anyone outside of EZBoard buys into that particular display of paranoia, no matter how many times they read it.

-- RC (randyxpher@aol.com), December 07, 2000.


"How many times now have you received the university diploma spam?"

LOL!,That particular piece of spam has yanked my chain more than a few times,now I just smile and DELETE.It must be notorious.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), December 07, 2000.


Four times this week on the university diploma spam.

And it's only Thursday.

(Funny thing is that I only receive spam in my MindSpring mail; you know, the one I pay for. My freebies are all spam-safe. Go figure.)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), December 07, 2000.


You mean that's NOT for real?

-- Alice in Wonder Bra (alice@wonder.bra), December 07, 2000.

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