Ok here goes, My friend and I met this guy one night at Deny's. His name was Brent. We started talking and next thing you know He and I ended up in his bedroom some time the nxt morning. He is an active christian and one of the greatest people I know. That happend a couple more times in the next few weeks. I ended up going to his church and getting saved. It still happened a couple more times. We then decided that we could not see eachother alone anymore because neither of us is strong enough to say no. Well the Pastore of the church found out and has proceeded to remove him from the church and cut off all contact with any church members. Yet nothing happened to me. It is made out to be that he almost forced me because they're all treating me like I am a victim. That is not the case. I knew very well what was going on. I wanted it to. We both realize our sin and have repented from it. He is 25 and I am 18. Both adults. The pastor told Brent that if I were his daughter he would have killed him. Can some one please tell me if this is the way to go about this? I really need some answers!!!

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

Answers

Leah,

Your situation and your question are somewhat difficult to answer in this type of format. Since I doubt that anyone on this Forum either knows you or has counselled with you, it is difficult to determine your and Brent's sincerity and the reasons your church took the action it did. I do not mean to cast any aspersions against your characters, but the truth of a situation is rarely contained in only 1 side of the story.

With all that said, I would like to offer my "take" on your question based on the information you provided, the full truth of which is between you and God.

From what I read, I make the following observations:

1) You and Brent realized that your behavior was sinful.

2) You 2 have realized the need to remove yourselves from that sinful situation by not being alone in each other's company.

3) Your words say that you 2 have repented of this sin, but I must ask if you know the full impact of repentance. Repentance isn't just being sorry for a sin. It means being sorry enough (a tearing of the heart) to bring about a change in your life. You seem to be taking steps to prevent the act, but have you dealt with the underlying cause for this sin, lust? Since you say that neither of you are "strong enough to say no", it would appear that a little more soul-searching and effort in this area may be needed on your parts.

4) What part has prayer played in your situation? If you haven't done it yet, I would suggest a "knockdown, dragout, soul-baring" prayer session in order to help align your heart with God's and clear your mind of the thoughts you don't want to have.

Now, let me deal with the church situation:

1) According to the Bible, the church does have the right to disfellowship someone, but this is only to be done to one who continues unrepentant in their sin after being confronted, usually with witnesses. So, your church's action against Brent would only have been appropriate if he had been previously confronted about such sinful behavior in the past or while you 2 were "involved". I have no clue as to whether such confrontations have occurred in the past, so to get the answer you need, you may have to talk to your church leaders and Brent to assertain truth in this area.

2) You fail to mention if Brent had any type of leadership position in the church. If he did, a more harsh discipline may be indicated because of "whom much is given, much will be expected".

3) Obviously, repentance plays a big part in church discipline - that's why I placed such emphasis on it above. Church leadership is an awesome responsibility and having to consider discipline based on observations of others is extremely painful. I've "been there and done that", and I can guarantee that it often "hurts us more than it hurts you".

4) Church people are people. We make mistakes. We sometimes say and do stupid things. Whether or not you can decide if your church took proper action based upon scripture, NEVER let the actions of another damage or destroy your faith. Always stay strong in the Lord and in the armor of His might.

Finally, on a more personal level:

1) You seem uncomfortable with the church's attitude toward you. In all likelihood, this will probably never change. I doubt if you will be able to worship "in Spirit & in Truth" under those circumstances, so you will probably want to seek another church.

2) I would suggest finding a church where you can seek true Biblical counsel in this situation. I don't know of what denomination you are from, but I would suggest a Restoration Movement Church of Christ or Christian Church if there are any local to you. I am somwhat prejudiced in this, but I have found that they adhere to the Bible where other groups fail - and it would seem that is what you are desiring here, Biblical answers to difficult questions.

3) Finally, what is your and Brent's status? Do you seek to have a full relationship or was it just sex? If you 2 desire a permanent relationship, you will definitely want some on-going Biblical counsel and a good measure of prayer and determination to abstain from sin. Move slowly and share your lives with each other to see if this is something you want to pursue toward marriage. If what you have is anything less, my humble advice would be to move on.

In all things, keep this in mind: the blood of Christ covers all sin and Repentance & Baptism secures forgiveness of sin - if you have these, God has forgiven you. In such case, don't forget to forgive yourselves - guilt feelings can be a killer.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

Leah: You have written asking us to help you with some asnswers. It is my intent to see if we can gather some answers for you from the inspired word of God. For any human advice in these matters would be tainted with human sympathy for sin and human hypocracy of those who act as if sin exsist only in the lives of others and not within themselves. I recommend the reading of the following passage of scripture to set the tone of our review of the things you have written and explained to us. The inspired apostle John said to Christians, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. " (1 John 1:7-2:12). You should be able to find much in this verse that applies directly to all three characters that you describe in your letter. The "perfect" boyfriend, the helpless teenage girl that just happened to end up in her boyfriend's "bedroom sometime in the morning", and the "mean and nasty preacher" that is would murder this young man if his daughter were foolish enough to end up in the same bedroom you were in on some other morning. Let us never loose sight of the fact that Christ died to save us while we were yet sinners. (Romans 5:8). And that there are three sinners in your narrative of these events. They are Brent, Leaha, and the preacher. I ask, with the utmost of kindness and respect for you and your friend Brent that while we must discuss sin that you ever keep in mind that there is the hope of obtaining through Christ the remmission of all sin. I also ask that you not depict this as if the only real genuine sinner in your narative is an over zealous preacher that is seeking to keep the "flock" pure and that you not hastily discount the possibliltiy that your boyfriend may have a "patteren" of such behavior that justifies the action of withdrawing the fellowship of his fellow saints from him. While you, on the other hand might be treated differently because you are perceived as being a new Christian that must be treated in a more gentile and nurturing way because your heart is not yet trained and your testing by Satan cannot be allowed to destroy you. THere is indeed a difference between one who has been tested and failed the test and must repent and try again and one who is a willing servant of Satan and is a "wolf in sheeps clothing" intend so much fulfilling his selfish desires that he would, if allowed to run free, destroy the entire flock of God. You have said: "Ok here goes, My friend and I met this guy one night at Deny's. His name was Brent." So far everything is fine. You met a guy whom you like very much and his name was Brent. A good name and no doubt a person who made a good impression upon you. I do not know him myself but I accept your judgement that he is indeed a fine person when comparing him to others that you know. Then you say: " We started talking and next thing you know He and I ended up in his bedroom some time the nxt morning." Now just here, Leah, I can only ask you to be very honest with yourself about just how it happened that you "ended up in his bedroom some time the next morning". I hope that you describe this event this way simply because you want to spare us and yourself the embarassing details of what appears to be an act of fornication which took place while you and he were in his bedroom. For if that is your reason for speaking of it as if it was something that just "happened" I can agree with your good judgement to not go into the details. But I fear that you speak of this act as if it was something that just "happened" and was therefore completely beyond your and your friend Brent's ability to control. I sense that you have the impression that neither of you could have done anything to prevent this from "happening". I have no doubt that your very natural and good attraction to each other seemed overwhelming and stronger than your concern for each other and your love for the Lord Jesus Christ. And it may have been that the will of Jesus Christ and being committed and faithful to him was not in the least foremost in your minds while you were committing this fornication. And it is possible that in the middle of this strong temptation neither of you thought to Pray together that you might be delivered from evil. I urge you to please be honest with yourself and admit that both of you made a conscious choice to put your faith in Christ aside and pursue your own desires. If you question this just ask yourself what you might think if your girlfriend someday should come to you and say that she met Brent at Deny's one night and they started talking and the "next thing you know" we "ended up in his bedroom sometime the next morning". Would you be understanding and simply say, " oh, I understand these things just happen some times but I am fully convienced that he truly loves and cares for me? I must say that I do doubt if that would be your response. Then why should you expect God to accept this as just something that happened and neither of you could have done anything to prevent it? Here are a few passages of scripture that describe how we are "drawn away" and tempted by Satan. "Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:12-15). "Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John 2:15-17). "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor. 6:

" Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Cor. 6:15-17). Notice here that you have the choice to be joined harlot and be one FLESH or joined to the Lord and be one SPIRIT with him. But you cannot do both. If, the two of you are really in love then it is "better to marry than to burn". But if you are merely "burning in lust" for one another it is far better to stay away from each other. Are we not told, "FLEE FORNICATION". Thus, either be joined as husband and wife or run as fast as you can away from each other. But the idea of living in adultery and fornication while remaining joined spiritualy to Christ is a deceptiuve lie that Satan would have you to believe that he might devour you and obsorb you and consume you with your own lust. Please, Leah, be careful and be honest with yourself and search the scrip[tures for wisdom and pray for wisdom but in all things cling to the Lord. Your very soul is at stake in these things and your only concern presently seems to be how the preacher is treating your boyfriend. Think of what is important. THink of the precious price that Christ paid to redeem you from these sins. Please, Leah, think not only of your own soul but the soul of anyone who commits fornication with you. You have a great measure of responsibility before God in this matter and you cannot just shirk that responsibility. God will hold you to account. When you say nothing has "happened to me" only to my boyfriend you indicate that you are completely unaware of just what has happened in this fornication that you willing chose over Christ. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it]." (1 Cor. 9:13)

Then you say concerning you boyfriend with whom you willing committed fornication.: " He is an active christian and one of the greatest people I know." I do hope that you can see the inconsistency in what you arfe saying about Brent. He has committed fornication with you but you maintain that he is an "active Christian" but you fail to notice that he is a Christian that is active in practices that are sinful and therefore must genuinely repent of his sins or be disciplinred for persisting in his sin. Have you even thought to ask yourself honestly how many other young teenage girls have just "ended up in his bedroom some time in the morning"? It may be that you are the "only one" and I sincerely hope that such is the case but I have my doubts about that because he has shown himself as one who has chosen to not maintain control over his desires. If he thinks as you do that neither of you could control what happened then what makes you think that he has control when he is tempted by others? Or are you nieve enough to think that he could not be attracted to others in the same way that he was drawn to and by you? You then admit that one of the "greatest people you know" who is an "active Christian" Committed fornication with you a couple of more times and then you just "end up going to his church and getting saved": "That happend a couple more times in the next few weeks. I ended up going to his church and getting saved." ANd after you "got saved" you admit that "It still happened a couple more times." Now you not only need to examine more closly your motivations, for only you can do so but you also need to question your salvation that you claim to have "got". You will not read in the scriptures of anyone who "got saved" but rather of those who were saved when they obeyed the gospel. But you most certianly do not read of those who were saved in the mists of a flurry of fonication. And then wiped their moths and said, "we have done nothing wrong" and immediately returned to the fornication that they love more than Christ! THink of what you are saying and face the truth. If you sincerely want help you must be honest and face the truth. Until you do this you cannot be helped. Then you say: "We then decided that we could not see eachother alone anymore because neither of us is strong enough to say no." Now you are taking the right steps! Now you understand what you should do. Flee fornication! But do not forget where you are to run. Run to the Lord and come to him in truth and find forgiveness and sincerely become a Christian according to His word. Read these verses (John 3:16; Acts 3:19; Romans 10:9,10; MArk 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; John 3:3-5; Titus 3:3-5; Eph. 5:26; Heb. 10:22; Gal. 3:26,27; Heb.5:8,9; Matt. 10:33,34; Matt. 7:21-23; Luke 6:46) THen the rest of your narrative is about others:

" Well the Pastore of the church found out and has proceeded to remove him from the church and cut off all contact with any church members." I do not know by what means this "pastor" found out about this private sin. It may be that it was through gossip but then if it were through gossip that gossip had to start with one or both of the only two people that knew for certian that you "ended up in his bedroom" and guess just who those two people might be? If you or he or both of you started this gossip that lead the preacher to believe that this was all Brent fault and that he forced you into all this fornication then you only have yourself to blame for this situation. You may want to tell the truth publicly if this sin is in fact public and repent publicly for it. But if you are unwilling to do such then you will have to live with the fact thqat the "pastor" has a false picture of what happened between the two of you and is taking action, whether fcorrect or not, based upon false information he received from gossip that could have only originated between you and your partner in fornication. A good honest confession of sin and public repentance of it would put much of thois gossip to rest. I know that such would not be easy but it would be right and wise. But let me caution you that there is a difference between confessing sin and making excuses for it. Do not be like President Clinton and play with words and hide from the truth! Be forthright, honest and face the facts. Then you say that notheing has happened to you. Oh, do not be so sure of that one. THere are consequences for every sin and just because you have not seen them coming does not mean they are not rapidly approaching!

"It is made out to be that he almost forced me because they're all treating me like I am a victim." Both you and Brent are victims of Satan and sin and Christ is the only one that can save you. Now, I do not have enough information to judge this "pastor" but I submit to you that he may have more information than you about your friend Brent. " That is not the case. I knew very well what was going on. I wanted it to. We both realize our sin and have repented from it." I am glad that you have repented but do not be deceived into thinking that repentence will prevent all consequences from falling upon you. THis is not taught in the word of God. Your gossip to others has consequences as well. You can deny this charge if you9 must but it does appear to me that either or both of you told others of your fornication and news of it has reached others. I do sincerely doubt if this came to the "pastors" ears by two sincere young people who went to him for help. Then you tell us: " He is 25 and I am 18. Both adults." Now just here you make the common error that a certian age equals adulthood. I have know people in their forties that were not "adults" and just because they are past "puberty" and can participate in sexual immorality does not make anyone an "adult'. And another common error is that adulthood in some way justifies illicit sexual behavior. Even if you were of the same age and considered by everyone to be adults your sin would not have been any less damaging. And no father wants his daughter taken advantage of or used as a sexual object at any age, now does he? Now, I am not saying that this is what Brent did to you but it is possible that such is exactly the case. But do you really know Brent? Are you able to say with certianty that he is not the kind of man who is playing upon the young women of the church and that he is not pretending to be an "active Christian" in order to take advantage of those who respect Christian men? He has behaved in a fashion that does show a vast inconsistency between what he believes and how he behaves. I am not saying that this "pastor" is right but I am asking you to think about the p[ossibility that he may know things that you do not know about Brent. For if Brent is such a habitual impentitent fornicator he is supposed to be disciplined by the church until he genuinely repents and turns from such behavior. Then you quote the so-called pastor as saying: " The pastor told Brent that if I were his daughter he would have killed him." Now, if you read the passage that I gave you from 1 John you would see what the scriptures say about a man who wants to murder his brother. A more antiChristian statement could not have been made! If this man indeed said this he should repent in bitter tears for the love of God does not abide in such a one. Harboring this attitude is a sin for this so-called "pastor". But it does bring up an important question. And I hope that I will not interject pain by asking the obvious. If your father is living and and your family is intact, what do your mother and father think of this matter? Is it possible that you have come to the internet for advice because you have not told them or that you are afraid to ask them for the guidance that parents are to provide their children, even after they become emancipated "adults" free to sin? I know that this may not be the case with you and you may have a broken home but surely someone in your family cares. If not, I will tell you sincerely that I care and my words above are not gentile in every way because I do care that you come to know the truth. Then you asked: " Can some one please tell me if this is the way to go about this? I really need some answers!!!" Leah, most of what you describe above is not the way to "go about this" begining with the mutual fornication between you and Brent in the first palce. That is not the way to go about establishing and maintianing a relationship with anyone especially among Christians who are to avoid fornication. And neither of you should be treated as helpless victims of the other. When if fact both of you deliberately and intentionally sinned against God and denied the faith by chosing to commit fornication rather than obey Christ and flee from it. According to the scriptures no one man has the right and power to lead the church to act against Brent. Only the elders or "pastors" as a group have this responsibility. If you only have one "pastor" then you have an organization that is just as rebelious against God as were the two of yo9u when you committed fornication. There is little difference between the lust of the flesh and the lust for inordinate POWER in the church. No, much is not righ in this case, Leah, but you must begin to make corrections with yourself and you must allow Brent to face the consequences of his actions, whatever they may be, and you must be honest and open your eyes to the possibility that things may not quite be as you have perceived them to be. I have taken this tiome to write to you because I am concerned about your etenal well-being and I can assure you that I am motivate by a Christian love far different that the one you found in Brent. I pray fervently for you and I can assure you that there is hope in Christ our Lord. Do not watch what men do or say about you. Remeber that Jesus said, "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest." If your sins are a grevious burden and you are seek peace and rest come to Christ. He will "never leave you nor forsake you". And you can be forgiven of unrighteousness. Then pray for Brent and this so-called "pastor" that they too will face the Christ and surrender completely to Him in all things. I pray fervently for you, Leah. I pray that you will not be confused. I pray rather that you will be completely converted and committed to Christ as Lord.

Your Friend in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000