We're hopeless. What a useless alround performance. For the second game in a row our best player has been out goalie. Take him out and we were 'worse than Birmingham', think what that means.

Griffin ... okay Barton ..... okay Hughes .... okay Goma ..... okay

Yet defence as a whole were hopeless

Lee .... okay Speed ...... useless Bassedas .... played on the left for those missed the team sheet at the start and didn't see him after that Solan .... okay

Yet midfield as a whole were hopless

Dyer .... okay. mis-hit goal ran around lots Shearer ..... okay, should have thought about trying to score rather than going down when the goalie came out

Yet forwards created nothing

Overall .... rubbbish

We were playing Birmingham, and we were hopeless

Bassedas I nearly fogive as he looks like he's being played into being match fit but the rest, all of them, were demonstrably worse than a good first division side.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

Answers

What worries me is the body language of our players was not good. They didn`t look like winners, they looked worried, and in the end they had every right to be.

However, still have to give Harper his due - the defeat could easily have been even more of a bliddy pantomime!!! (:o|

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

So what is the problem? Is there a dressing room issue that we aren't aware of? What happened to the spirit we had last season? Almost the same personnel. Why not the same fight? God, I'm gutted. The Toon really tests your faith.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

Balance. No-one in a B&W shirt used his left foot other than to stand on.

Yes - and something is not good behind the scenes.

Bobby will go. Frustrated at the lack of trust with money - despite the transfer scenario.

And Fat Freddie will say 'He knew the purse strings were tight when he took over'

Bobby has not looked very happy for a while now.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

I found a 50p coin in the street this afternoon - am I a lucky bastard, or what?

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

I think I'm going to the AGM and will ask about money and Bobby.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

Clarly, I get a feeling your patience is wearing thin? (;o)

And yes, I do get the feeling that there is something festering behind the scenes that we don`t know about. All rather worrying.(:o|

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

Thoroughly depressed and i didn't even watch it.

In response to Screacher on another thread: of course i expected them to win it in the last five minutes. That's what happens, that's the nature of supporting NUFC.

HOWEVER, i'm bloody sick of it. It all has a horrible sense of deja vu doesn't it? If the players showed the spine and mettle that our fans do, there would not be a problem. I firmly believe that. Overpaid, useless, disgraceful.

As i said, under the worst of TSM you couldn't level a lack of spine and guts at the whole team, only at individuals [who i won't name - you know who they are] who simply weren't good enough.

This is depressing because the TEAM capitulates - time and again. Isn't that one of the fundamental reasons why TDO is less popular than TSM?

The club has a disease and it has to be cut-out with immediate effect.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

Don`t know about deja vu Min. Seems like some things never change. How long is it since we really felt we were beginning a roll (as opposed to being rolled over). Every game is a heart in mouth affair again. It wouldn`t be so bad if we were playing really entertaining football and losing because we were only `attack` minded. But tonight we did seem to fall down in all three thirds of the pitch (again, with the exception of Harper, and even he must have been beginning to feel a bit shell shocked.)

What`s to do? I don`t know - But there ought to be a lot of soul searching going on on the coach tonight!(:o|

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

Yellow streak running through the club's psyche. Reaping what we sowed by buying instead of nurturing youth team. Too many quick fixes. Too much haste to sack managers. House built on sand.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

Right, i've had my rant.

I'm now offline til Sunday morning so see you all for the post-match analysis....

fingers crossed [cos that's what it is] for a victorious Saturday.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

Don't let this spoil your birthday, Min.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

too late, dougal, too late....

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

Agree about these results seeming nearly expected. Even the Sky commentators said we have a habit of falling apart in the 2nd half. Harper did a great job after looking a bit nervy the first few minutes. I think the comedy ball bouncing off his nose woke him up. ;-)

Bobby looked on the verge of tears at one point. There's definitely something psychological going on. What it is, I wish I knew. But lots of frustration, Speed and Shearer moaning like crazy, Speed earning another yellow in the process. NOt really any horrible performances, but other than Harper, and potentially Cordone(he certainly provided energy we were lacking), nothing outstanding either. It's nearly more frustrating because there isn't one particular person or cause to point the finger at.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2000

Who the eff are we trying to kid ?

There's a stink about SJP that emanates from one source. Shephard. Get shot of that scumbag, for a start, and then worry about where next after he's well away.

As for our playing representatives, where does one start ?

Borrox. Can't be asred.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

We've had enough of these spineless peformances this season to let it happen much longer. Bobby seems to be majorly peeved at something and I for one hopes he makes a few rash decisions on the back of this game. What about playing Solano on the left hand side at least then he'll cross the ball in from the left.

Most of Bobby's frustration must be laid towards Goma who played well against an on form Adebola last night but wants out of the club. Why does he want to leave, is there real dressing room unrest. Are the old guard making themselves 'big' again, cut them down a bit I say.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

DeBuilder, that`s the gist of what I just posted on the `anyone for tennis` thread. (But I don`t know how to cut n` paste it to here).(:o)

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

Pit Bill, I didn't think Shephard had too bad a game last night!

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

I thought YBR should have given Cordone more time and Bassedas should've come off at 60 / 70 mins. 10 mins is no time to do anything.

That said, were me and ITK the only ones who thought 2 Brummies were offside for their 2nd goal? Shades of Watford last season...

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

What about Barton? I thought he had a fucking mare and shouldn't have been allowed near the ground never mind on the pitch.....I love him to bits but he's shite at the moment and we can't afford to carry him while he's trying to find his form again....

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

Yup, Barton had another mare. Quite why no bugger showed for him over the full 90 is beyond me. Time and again the blonde bombshell raced up the left with his right foot ready to cross, and time and again nobody came short to collect it off him, or ran ahead of him, so time and again he was left to hoof it into an at best 50-50 situation, except no bugger wanted to fight for it so let's call it a 90-10 shall we?

Griffin played down the left against Orient and impressed everyone by crossing with his left foot (it certainly surprised the forwards who were hanging back for the right foot cutback). Oddly enough, he was on the right.

Then we have Domi. We know he has quality: he showed us bags of it last season, but now he clearly wants a transfer so he sat on the bench.

Clearly it's all Barton's fault. How can you perservere with a player who plays wherever he is asked and keeps trying even when it's not working for him? Meanwhile, everyone will be giving Rob Lee 8/10 as usual and singing his name while he did nothing in the first half except give away free kicks and nothing at all in the second half. Legs gone. Hiding.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

I allways thought you had an uncanny resemblence to Our centre parted wonder Softie , is their summit your not telling?? I thought there were plenty of times when Lee dyer and bassedas showed for barton , but seeing as hes blind and has two right feet he couldnt muster a pass with the correct weight for a short pass (either too soft or a bloomin rocket) and hes not accurate enough for a switched ball , all the options he had were his ussual hoof up toward the pen spot or disastous putting the keeper under pressure back pass. Lee made some good tackles but his legs went towrd the middle of 2nd half id have replaced him with acuna.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

Geordie

Don't you just hate clever shitse ? :-))

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

Barton was there last night as a defender. His defending was poor to be polite. Clearances were walloped in the air sometimes backwards. Positioning was utter bollox and Hughes and Goma must have been wondering where the hell Barton was playing.

Griffin was being dragged out by Lazaridis but Barton didn't have this excuse. The back four were streched and more often than most times it was because Barton was not tucking in with the Centre backs when Griffin was being occupied.

The rest of his play. He set the goal up well by whelting the ball into the action area which was a good ploy, Credit there. Otherwise he scuffled around looking lost or hoofed it towards Duncan Ferguson who was not on the pitch.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

Well call me unfair, but I look for the bastards doing nothing before I pick on somebody giving his all, even if he was playing like shite. It wasn't as if he was breaking up attacks, he was the only player going forward most of the time, and before some wag claims it was because the rest of them were getting back to defend when he lost it, they did an abysmal job of stopping them through midfield, didn't they?

Griffin was being pulled about so much by Lazaridis that Nobby kept turning up at the back trying to help contain him, who was helping Barton?

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

I'll side with you in backing up your double softie. I stick with what I said earlier, 11 Barton's on the pitch and we would have won.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

Slow down, slow down.

Barton tries and tries and tries, no one doubts that. I think (I'm pretty sure really) Dougal and Steph and Gav would also all try and try and try.

Giving 100% has to be the minimum. I don't think anyone is questioning the cimmitment, the question is the skill level.

Barton, Speed, Lee and Shearer are not going to improve markedly at this stage of their careers. If therefore they aren't good enough then they never will be. New players like ACuna and Bassedas have a benefit of the doubt period, young players even longer. Senior players MUST perform well all the time or there is not much point them being there.

Warren Barton is a nice lad, tries his heart out, has even looked okay in some games over the previous two seasons but he didn't last night. Gary Speed and Robert Lee are completely, interchangabley journeyman players (now). They too give 100%. Shearer gives 100% too.

We might as well get Niall Quinn for Shearer, Alex Rae for Speed, Paul Ince for Rob Lee and Makin for Barton, it wouldn't make any difference. They'd suddenly be in black and white and they'd be loved, but that's their equivalent level at the moment

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

they did an abysmal job of stopping them through midfield, didn't they?

Birmingham were thumping it up to Horsfield and Adebola so the midfield was really being by-passed. Barton should have been making up a defensive three when Griffin was away with Lazaridis as they were more threatening down the left side and Barton rarely had someone to mark on that side either than Adebola or Horsfield running the channel. That is why he was probably pushing forward a lot more but he was leaving the space behind him too often and the way Brum were knocking it into the channles, it played right into their hands.

I can't really remember the Brum midfield apart from Lazaridis for his play and O'Connor for his dirty tackle.

I agree about no-one helping him like Solano was helping Griffin, which is a deep-rooted problem at the club.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

He's the experienced man and I've been told on here many a time that he performs well at left back. I've never been a fan and never will be. When you have a clearance to make and you hoof it straight into the air it's crap, when you have time to pass out of defence and you hoof it marginally at more of an angle and forwards into the air there isn't much difference, no matter what side the park you are playing.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

Screacher, I think you have to be permitted to say whether you think someone has had a good game or not - I`m not saying that there weren`t mitigating circumstances, but it certainly wasn`t one of his best games.

There was one incident in the game though that had me in stitches. I wish I had taped the game to watch again and see what the other players were doing. Cordone had just come on and was in full `going it alone` mode (can`t decide whether it was out of choice or not). At one point he was in the penalty area with the Birmingham defence circling him like indians round a waggon train!! He must have kept them at bay for a full 10 - 15 seconds, I know it seemed like ages. I believe that the rest of the team must have either been frustrated that he didn`t pass the ball earlier, or were assuming that he was so outnumbered, they would close him down. But blow me if after all that, the ball didn`t trickly out of the circle of players in the direction of the goal. If Dyer had been hovering around somewhere to the right of the action, with his speed he might have got to the ball before the keeper. But as I say, I was so distracted by the ever increasing number of players surrounding Cordone, I wasn`t really aware of what the rest of our team were doing.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

It's good to have lively debate back again...all this agreeing with other shite was very unproductive ;-)

No denying Barton's limitations, but we shouldn't undervalue what he offers, and I feel people are doing so, and being overly critical based on a couple of games at most. We're critical and patronising about Birmingham and the Hackems, but they both beat us. Does that not indicate we lack something. OK, we all want to have our cake and eat it, and wouldn't we all love a squad full of players who gave 100% and also had finesse and skill. It should be what we are aiming for, but it's not an easy solution. How do you bottle Barton's spirit and put it in, say, a Maric, to take an extreme? You might be able to buy it ready made if you're lucky or have unlimited funds (neither of which we have in abundance), but we stand a much better chance if we develop it from a youth squad...oops, sorry that's another thread.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

Roz I remember that bit I thought cordone got his toe to it and poked it for Al to run onto , but Al being Al just looked at it and said some rather nasty spitefull things to cordone.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

Spot on Galaxy, no anticipation whatsoever. I think it might have been Shearer who was closest to the ball when it was played out of the melee but whoever it was, was rocking on his heels looking at Cordone and probably thinking "Mmmmm, how's he going to get out of that one on his own then, ooohh fffffme the balls popped out"

The look on Cordone's face was one of, "fffffme what the hell else do you want me to do?"

He was a bright spark last night and for a few moments I thought he was going to do something for a minute.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

BTW Softie, I also would like to know what has gone wrong with Domi. I thought he was a really good buy, and think he`s a decent player, but his recent form hasn`t been great. He kind of looks like an outsider - I wonder if that`s Goma`s problem too. I sort of get the same feeling about Solano, and I do think he has improved greatly (with the odd abberation(sp) - but there`s a real `little boy lost` look about him sometimes.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

Listen gang - you're ripping each other apart over one player who therefore, at worst, represented less than 10% of the problem last night.

For the record, Barton WAS shite, but he certainly wasn't the only one, and he was for some curious reason that I don't pretend to understand, playing out of position.

THE real problem here isn't WB's form - or any one player's form for that matter - there is a malaise afflicting The Toon that seriously bothers me, and seems to bear a horrible resemblance to the situation at the Club a little over a year ago, before all the cr@p about TDO emerged in it's full glory.

I've no idea what's going on, but methinks "something is not right in the kingdom of Denmark!"

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

Windy,

Ironinc really we're all crying out for some decent effort from the lads and the one fella who normally gives his all is Barton. But we have to take a step back and think that we could buy any plodder and he'll give 100% but couldn't kick a ball for toffee.

I may have been a bit harsh on his ability to kick the ball, but I do believe that his ability to defend beyond a certain level is limited. How many times when we play with Barton do we looks defensively sound. I am probably in a minority but I put Dabizas in the same class as Barton.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

I'm not convinced that this 'malaise' isn't (hmm, nice double negative) isn't BBS generated. Us desperately trying to find a reason for our erratic form. OK so there aren't too many smiles around, but there never are when you play shite. We critcise Shearer for shouting at his teammates, but when he doesn't we say he's not involved enough, and we lack a rabble rouser in the team....

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

All very well shouting at his team-mates but being disgusted with them and then basically turning his back on them as he did with Nobby and Cordone doesn't help. I think Shearer is a victim of his own frustration and sometimes forgets his responsibility. With Bobby lovinh him so much the players must feel like Bobby is criticising them when Shearer does so.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

DeB,

Enthusiasm isn't Barton's only plus point. When he's fully fit, he'll cover more ground than anyone (Dyer perhaps excepted). and he's not that much of a plodder either - if he were we wouldn't even consider playing him out of position. The fact he does so is because his shoulders are broad enough to take the inevitable criticism - others would shy away from getting themselves in that situation, because they know how you're only as good as your last game in most people's eyes.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

because they know how you're only as good as your last game in most people's eyes. Hopefully not a veiled dig?

In my eyes I've felt the same about him for a couple of seasons now, up until which point I was still 'jury out'.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

Remember when he 1st came everyone hated him, then he started getting it together. Now he looks like returning back to the old days I hope im wrong, not least becasue hes one of the few who acknowledges the crowd and i sort of like the guy really.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

No personal dig intended DeB...you're longstanding undervaluation of Barton has been more than obvious ;-))). Seriously though, what I meant was it's human nature to remember people's performances from the last game or so. If anything, it's a dig at human nature..

I take your point re Barton and his limitations, but don't myself think we can afford the luxury of dispensing with him when there's such a dirth of spirit in the side as it is.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

F*** off you lot! ;-)

Barton no doubt had a cr@p game last night. I didn't see it but I'll believe you all. But it's not very long ago that he had some of his best games at Toon - then he got injured. How much has he played since that injury? What position? You can't just come straight back from injury.

If Goma hadn't "picked up a knock" on Sunday, Barton wouldn't have been thrown into the centre of defence against a fairly strong central attack (Heskey/F***er - both England internationals for what that's worth).

If we had another option (Domi seems to be "out of favour - I wonder why??) Barton wouldn't have had to play LB last night. It's one thing switching sides when you're match fit and at the top of your form (just ask Ugly Sister #2). It's another when you're trying to get back to match fitness. I'm not going to jump on the "let's slag off WB" bandwaggon until the guy is given a fair chance - both here and at NUFC.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

This lack of cover in the defence has been exacerbated made worse by getting rid of (i) Howey, (ii) Charvet, (iii) Pistone and injury to (iv) Marcelino (ahem), (v) Dabizas (vi) Goma. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't (iv) and (v) happen before (i) and (ii)? Add to that that Goma wants to go and the feeling with Marcelino is mutual. Charvet was adequate cover at FB and CB. WTF did we let him go? WTFIGO at SJP? We get rid of some decent proven players while we are woefully short of civer elsewhere. This stinks.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

I'm one with Screach on this - reminds me of the virulent anti-Barton feeling on this BBS sometime ago. Completely unjustified. WB covers well, when playing RB he looked for AS and found him with good balls - often our only direct link from defence to attack. I was impressed with his play on Sat. v Heskey et al. He is a thoughtful committed player and one that we will sorely miss.
Domi I have the opposite views on - he has all the attributes but is timid in attack, afraid to make mistakes and doesn't look interested. He has to go.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2000

So what happens between scouts seeing enough in these foreign guys to warrant them being signed, and their failure to live up to what attracted us in the first place ?

Are the scouts falling down on the job ? Is the manager lacking in some way ? It baffles me.

-- Anonymous, December 01, 2000