Please post your thoughts about the ELECTION ISSUES HERE. (We should be getting FL Supreme Court info shortly). Please reference other thread (Request for Consolidation, etc) as to why some of us would like to try doing this.

thank you, old and senile (I couldn't read a butterfly ballot if it flew up and landed on the end of my eyeglasses), I remain yours truly,

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 20, 2000

Answers

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-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 20, 2000.

C'mon, where are you guys? Off in a chatroom? The FL Supreme Court didn't rule, but there were hints. There's news about Cheney perhaps being inelligible to run for VP out of Texas (having been living in Wyoming). There's a ruling that the overseas military ballots don't have to have a postmark. There's some office currently being dealt with in Texas, that requires a hand recount, by law. There's the real possibility that even with a recount, Gore won't have enough votes.

Not enough news to comment about? Or you don't like me trying to set up a new format or what? Or who's on Monday Night Football?

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 20, 2000.

Sheepish, it's probably the combination of Monday Night Football, and the fact that deer season is in full force in a lot of areas, or, I don't really know....? Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 20, 2000.

We probably all deserve a break anyway! Que sera, sera!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 20, 2000.

I watched the FL Supreme Court Session. They sure seemed to be hinting a recount drop-dead date would be a couple of days prior to when FL has to report its Electorial College slate. Am also hearing Gore isn't picking up anywhere near the votes they projected.

Perhaps why there were so stunned was their reliance on exit polls in predominately minority precincts. As noted on another thread, while they got out the vote, they forgot to educate them on how to vote. These were a lot of the double-punchers.

Projections are efforts to do away with the Electorial College stand absolutely no chance of success.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 21, 2000.

Hubby watched the court case yesterday and gave me a blow by blow account of how it went. He said the Democrat lawyers went first and the justices were pretty tough on them, however, the chief justice kept asking them for a deadline date as if he was trying to hint that he was willing to rule that way but they couldn't come up with a date.

Each side was supposed to have an hour each. Democrats went first and when they ended the chief justice said they still had three minutes left on their time. They then broke for ten minutes and came back to hear the republicans. They did their hour and then the justice told the democrats they could finish up their remaining three mintues. Instead they went on for about another half an hour or forty-five minutes. Sounds like the justices gave an advantage to the democrats. Course this doesn't surprise me.

Anyway, hubby's take on it all was that he thinks they will come back with a ruling that the recounts can go on and give them a new deadline for them to come in.

As to the military ballots and the post mark issue, there are several things about them that are important to know. First, military mail can be sent without postmarks. Therefore, bags of mail from ships were brought in without postmarks. In my opinion, they should be counted. Secondly, some military stationed in foreign ports had their mail postmarked locally with the local date. Because they were in a time zone that put them a day ahead of us, their mail was postmarked November 8th eventhough it was still NOvember 7th in the U.S. I think these ballots should be included as well.

I think that Gore will get everything he is asking for at this point but that the vote will still come down in Bush's favor because of the military ballots. I will be real curious what he will then try to pull so that he can be declared the winner eventhough he went on national television to say he would not pursue any legal challenges if he got what he was asking for.

I also think that if Gore is not the winner there will be rioting in the streets. It will be real interesting to watch what happens. I hope Bush is declared the winner. All indications are that he did win the election. Hopefully, our courts won't muddy up the water so much that our system becomes, "you can get elected if you just have enough money to pay the lawyers."

Hope we hear something today.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), November 21, 2000.

I watched allot of it too. It seems the Florida Supreme Court is very nervous and not so sure about all the "rules". They are very aware that a mess up could cause Florida's votes to not count at all if not cleared up by the deadline (might be part of the plan), and that would not be pretty for any of them. One thing I don't get. If the people of Florida elected a Rep. Governor and they have a Rep. Secreatary of State, why is it so hard to believe for some they would vote more Rep. votes than Dem. votes for President?

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 21, 2000.

What is the Senatorial status of Joseph Leiberman? Senators will be sworn in on January 3rd as I recall.

Military ballots would still have to meet other requirements, such as a proper signiture and a proper witness.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 21, 2000.

I think the Court is leaning toward allowing the ballots to be hand counted. Personally, I think it's the right thing to do. For the record, I also am glad that the military votes can be counted. (see, I'm really on the side of the Voter.) At this point, after lying awake all night, I tend to think that it might be a good thing for Bush to come out the "winner" in this mess. But, it's because I'm more concerned about a Gore "victory" inciting riots by the Bush folk. (Isn't it amazing about our fears? I wonder if they are even real?) I do think the Gore folk would be more likely to get over it.

Last night I listened to American talk radio. I was blown away by what passes for intelligent conversation. I listened to two talk shows, and each host was biased for one of the parties. All the talk was practically incendiary. Callers were asked for their opinions, and then then, if the host did not agree with them, the callers were called liars, idiots, etc. Is this what people put up with? Anyway, people would be cut off, if their views weren't the "correct" one for the caller. This kind of crap is what's agitating the half-wits out there. They have their favorite version of reality, and then listen to the garbage spewed out from these radio morons. No wonder I'm concerned about civil unrest. These folks are mental cases (the radio talk show hosts AND anyone who calls in and puts up with that nonsense, AND the listening public for believing that garbage. I though teevee was bad! Now I know why Americans are so woefully misguided.)

Anyway. I hope and pray that people will accept the Courts as being fair, and reasonable. Last night, people were referring to the FL courts as Kangaroo Courts. To those people I would ask: who has the final authority? YOU???? At what point do we consent to be governed? Or do we just disagree on and on and on. I'm sick of it. The whole world isn't rigged unless you see yourself as a total loser....

One more thing. My family isn't perhaps so typical but I wondered. Last February, in the WA state primary, the four of us voted: McCain, McCain, McCain, McCain. For the pres. election in November: Nader, Nader, Gore, and a write-in for Jesse Venture. I got to wondering if the RNC isn't wondering why they wanted to run Geo. W. Sheesh!! McCain could have won the whole country hands down. He would have pulled in a lot of the independents. What were the Reps even thinking in picking Geo W.?

Enough babbling. Let's see how the Court does today.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 21, 2000.

Sheepish. There is one answer about Bush over McCain. Money. Pure and simple. I too believe that McCain would have been a much better choice for a lot of reasons including experience. I did vote for Bush although I was not particularly enamoured of him but it was a lesser of two evils kind of thing. I would have been much happier to vote Republican if it would have been for McCain. I also think that if one of the third parties had had their act together and courted McCain, I think they could have had a shot at winning. The problem with most of the third parties is that they can't get anyone with experience as their candidate. Until they do, I don't think any of them will have a chance of winning.

I guess we are all going to have to wait and see where this all ends. Unfortunately, none of it is likely to have a very positive outcome since the whole thing and the people involved are tainted. I guess we will have to wait four years to straighten it out. Hopefully, by then a third party will have put together a strong platform and a strong candidate. I think the country is ready for that.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), November 21, 2000.

Sheepish I agree with you about McCain, I would have voted for him, backed by any party, even Republican, used to be one, eons ago, before Carter was president. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 21, 2000.

It is dangerous to extrapolate, but it does not look like Gore can come up with 930 additional votes, even if Bush's number doesn't go up due to counting military ballots whose only problem was the lack of a postmark. I suspect the Democrats are starting to think about an exit strategy.

Humphreys County uses punch cards. Out of curiosity I called the head of the election office and asked how many ballots showed no clear choice for President. She said none. Maybe we ain't so dumb after all.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 21, 2000.

I agree with you Ken. I don't think he can pull it off either with his current strategy so I am just waiting to see what other thing he is going to try to trump up. I guarantee he will not give up.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), November 21, 2000.

The Florida Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Gore campaign. Apparently it will come do to 'the dimpled ballot' question. Some say it is an intent to vote. I would argue it is just as likely a voter started to vote, then changed their mind and intentionally voted for no one.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 22, 2000.

I think the physical counting of these ballots is what's getting Kafkaesque. It sure seems to me that a group of people should be able to come up with a set of reasonable rules and then stick to them. I think trying to guess the voter's intent by dimples and pregnant chads is beyond reasonable. Just count the ones where the stylus penetrated the card and if there's any hole, count it! Hanging, swinging, whatever. Sheesh. How hard is that? AND why not get some folks who read braile to count the the tough ones, if one has to count the pregnant ones? Then, count the stupid things and get the election done.

I really think the recount makes sense. But really, the counting itself must make sense, too.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 22, 2000.

I was going to copy Wendy's post and put it over here, but nah...

Re: Ken's other post:You know, at this point I don't really care who is president. The last two weeks have, without a doubt, proved that Gore and Shrub are cut out of exactly the same whole cloth. No need to apologize! The only winner I want to see is the voter! If they indeed think Geo. W. should be the next president, then I will find a way to sort it out in my mind. But I think both candidates are really lame! The real thing that I struggle with now is stuff like cat- calling during meetings of officials (in Dade county). For crying out loud, how immature ARE people????

I really really really think we give up our integrity ONLY by being as ignorant as we are. The elections only serve to prove that whoever has the most equivalent of cents-off coupons gets to be president. For all the voters out there who believed their candidate was something more than the product of years of advertising and marketing studies, time to get real. Don't be so gullible. This has not been about a character issue!! These people are NOT good characters, they just play them on teevee! (however, I still think some characters are less ridiculous than others...but they are still all ridiculous!!)

Let's all get together and find candidates that are worthy of our consideration for next time. I'm starting right now, and I'm working on the local school board stuff. Gotta start somewhere!

Anyway, it's still not over, and I for one, have enjoyed the civics lesson. But it's getting very tiresome at this point, and all I am wanting to do right now is have a nice holiday with my family. A few games, some turkey, maybe even a walk to the lake.

Happy Thanksgiving to you all!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 22, 2000.

First thing I want to say, it's always the other sides fault. Glad I got that off my chest. Rummor... The real reason Al Gore didn't get enough democratic votes wasn't because of Ralph Nader stealing them. No, No way. The problem seams to have come from with-in the party itself and the main culprit was Bill Clinton. It seams that he (Bill) didn't vote for Al Gore after all, and a lot of his(Bills') supporters also didn't vote for Al Gore, and how do we know this. Simple. Did any of you look at the butterfly ballots from Florida? No? Well go look. It seams like Bill had a hard choice to make; Al Gore or Morehead from Monica? I mean hell I sure know who I would have voted for if I had that choice, and why wasn't Morehead available on my ballot? I've been cheated! Gone to Florida.

-- Hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), November 22, 2000.

On Monica, how many people can say they introduced a phrase to the English language, as in - she did a monica on me.

Probably what upsets me most is how the rules keep changing. Right now my guess is there will be a special session of the Florida legislature and they will vote to seat the Republican slate of electorates. That would leave Gore a martyr with still a bit of political clout. Remember the loser is still the nominal head of their party until the next election.

From news reports, there is growing anti-Gore sentiment in the U.S. Congress. Sure doesn't look like he would have a honeymoon period. Pretty well his first official act would be the State of the Union Speech on January 20th, I think. If he does give it, I would expect a very, very cool reception.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 23, 2000.

P.S. I am wondering how much impact the 'mini-riot' outside the Election Offices in Miami/Dade County had on the decision of the Canvasing Board to stop all future hand recounting. Pretty gutsie call. Someone noted the FL Supreme Court directed them to hire as many counters as needed to get it done. However, the Canvasing Board noted there were only three of them and they can't do split shifts. Were they expected to put in 24-hour days from then until 5PM on Sunday.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 23, 2000.

As an Independant voter,I would like to remind people again that it was the Bush camp that shot down McCain with an innuendo campaign, one that Bush himself admitted was not true, but they used it anyway.

I think Jesse Ventura is the smart one -- he wouldn't TAKE the job.

I also wonder, Sheepish, who you're listening to on American talk radio -- I listen to Wisconsin Public radio, and there are no hysterical chest-beaters on there (that's why I listen)...you aren't listening to Rush Limbaugh, are you!?! WPR always has informed people that have nothing to do with either political party and frequently explain things like points of law, protocols, etc. I recommend you to public radio. Ours switches over to BBC after midnight, for some REALLY refreshing news that doesn't center around the American navel.

I think, therefore, I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh.

-- Julie Froelich (firefly1@nnex.net), November 23, 2000.

Jesse Ventura, Don't you bet, for one moment he wouldn't take the presidencey. But it's the things in his closet that keep him away. Both sides are making asses of themselves. I said somewhere else to sit back and watch their true colors. It's corrupt, when they can go and change rules, LAWS, anytime they want to fit their aggenda. It's total control. What's wrong with people today? Are we so busy working to pay taxes that we can't, don't, want to look at what's going on around us? Are we so absorbed in our own little worlds that we don't really care? Are we ready to be lead to gas chambers? Are we such cowards that we can't stand the sight of one another? I guess we deserve what we get!

Does anyone remember the S&L scandle's? Do people actually beleive that the government is for us? It's crazy in the wildest sense. They have oversteped the boundries of the constitution. We have given them way to much power, and if you're watching or listening to all the MEDIA hype then you can see just where you fit in. Your the person behind the police baracades. Now think just how far down the pecking order that is? The bottom is the bottom. However the constitution says this be a land of the people and governed by the people. According to this you should be ON TOP.

Don't tread on me.

-- Hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), November 23, 2000.

After the liberal FL Supreme Court took over and seemed to rewrite the law, I realized just how important the appointments to the U.S. Supreme Court are going to be. This country really will be out of control if we get a more liberal-leaning U.S. Supreme Court.

-- Betty (MI) (brolffs@voyager.net), November 23, 2000.

Hi,

It sure is hard to explain to my son why the rules keep changing in this election. Now that the Supreme Court/Fla has ruled that all votes must be in by Sunday, I will wait and see if Gore appeals the ruling to keep counting until he gets what he needs to win. It appears now that who ever wins, Gore or Bush, there will be people who won't support the winner (whiner) as the trust in the system will have eroded. Demos will think that GOPs have stolen the election and vice versa. It is a very sad state of affairs to have to explain to my son that in our present system, some folks will go to any lengths to win. What was the old saying.. by hook or crook....? Y'all have a happy Thanksgiving, and be grateful that we aren't the ones that will go down in history as the rule changers...

Cindy

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), November 23, 2000.

I have a question. For those of you who insist that both sides are behaving terribly. What would you have the republicans do? Are they suppose to sit there and take it until the dems have accomplished their purpose?! Or maybe concede, even tho they have won and won again? I think of a similar scenario where you have a one guy in the process of punching, biting, kicking and beating up another guy. The beat on guy stands there for a couple of minutes, waiting for the other guy to come to his senses and stop trying to pummel him. After a couple more minutes and more poundings, during which the aggressors crowd grows wilder and are cheering, whilst the beat up guy's crowd, are yelling defend yourself, defend yourself!! You cannot stand there and take that!!!

Finally the guy getting whopped on realizes the other guy is not going to stop on his own, he better get in the game and fight. And fight he does. His crowd cheers, yea! he is going to defend himself! The other crowd boohs. What about the bystander's? The ones who were not on either side? Do they place the pummeled guy in the same catagory as the guy doing the initial pummeling? How does that work? Help me please, I do not understand this line of reasoning! So I guess, if I go to defend and claim what has been proven mine via the rule of law, and in that process I use the legal means available to me to accomplish that, I am as bad as the person seeking to take from me?!?!

That many do not support either candidate is not the issue. But putting them in the same category is absurd. That means it matters not who is right or who is wrong, simply the fact they are involved makes thems scum. Geesh, I hope everyone here is never involved with a legal battle or dispute with a neighbor or family member or any such situation. Because by this reasoning, everyone involved would be equally noxious. Just a thought. God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), November 23, 2000.

Wendy, thank you. That's how I feel, just couldn't find the right words.

-- Lena(NC) (breezex4@go.com), November 23, 2000.

I don't know if I can express this adequately, but I think the root of the problem is that we are not (I mean 'we' as a people, because there are individual exceptions) taught from the cradle to value justice, truth, and the rule of law rather than force. We are taught to value self-centeredness, get all you can for yourself and the other guy be d----d. If, from birth, children were taught self- control, consideration for others, justice, fair play, respect for authority -- and for the true Source of that authority -- and had a good strong foundation in where our laws come from and why we have them and what they are (and I'm not talking necessarily about all the myriads of pettly little rules and regulations), then we would see statesmen instead of polititians leading our country, and the people would be able (for the most part) to rule themselves without having to have someone looking over their shoulders all the time.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 23, 2000.

I sincerely believe that the only recouse for the American voter is going to be to look to 2004. Both parties want to say they are going by the will of the people. Excuse me but we have a "popular" vote and an electoral vote. We vote for delegates that are pledged to candidates for the selection conventions on a state level and the electoral college is generally selected from these. 99% of the time our system works. This time popular voting just happened to be practically 50/50 split. I am sure that the actions by both parties have altered many Americans voting allegiance and this change will be evident in elections over the next 4 years and this 50/50 split will become history. True, whoever gets in will have the opportunity to pull some shenanigans, but voting Americans can be very unforgiving when they have been wronged. Have you ever noticed that this country always seems to get motivated from internal confusions and changes always happen? The heat has just been turned up a little under the melting pot this month.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), November 24, 2000.

TICK TICK TICK By now Prince Albert TICK TICK TICK must be filling a little bit TICK TICK TICK like Captain Hook TICK TICK TICK in Peter Pan TICK TICK TICK. That Croc. TICK TICK TICK is coming for him TICK TICK TICK just as time TICK TICK TICK is running out TICK TICK TICK for Prince Albert TICK TICK TICK.

Seriously, the deadline to certify is 5PM EST Sunday. Palm Beach County has some 10,000 questionable ballots to count and only three people to do it. From the news, each ballot takes between 30 and 60 seconds, so lets assume it will take 83 hours to go through them all. If the Canvasing Board works 12 hours a day, they will only have about 27 or so hours available before the deadline.

Hey Prince Albert - TICK TICK TICK.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 24, 2000.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"When you vote for a liberal Democrat, you spit on the grave of America."

Doesn't sound quite so farfetched these days, does it?

-- Rags (RaggedReb@aol.com), November 24, 2000.

Wow, what an introduction to the forum I have had. I knew we diverse, but what I have read here is a bit surprising even to a cynical old lady like me. Obviously I have been out in the sticks too long!!!!! Lord help us all. Ken, I like your articles in the magazine, you can tell you do a lot of research. Diane in Michigan

-- Diane Green (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 24, 2000.

Sheepish, Here is a post which I left in the Political Thread to Ken. To elucidate read on. JR

No! Your not dumb Ken..Nor are many Democrats who have left the Dem's camp but never changed their registration. I am one you will! What I see is the Gore/Daley, (Daley of Cook County, the most corrupt machine in modern history!) refusing to accept facts, that the most informed voters in Flordia have cast their option of and versions of, None Of The Above Vote. Most All these votes are the ones which Gore/Daley are trying to coerce the courts into acceptance and throw those ballots as Gore for President votes. Bad call! And if I had vote for Gore, I would not support his kicking and screaming to the OUTHOUSE, because he could not carry his home state! And that is my opinion. JR

-- JR (jr3star@earthlink.net), November 24, 2000.

First, JR is right. Name me one candidate for President in the last 30 years who did not carry their own home state. If Gore had, the Florida question would be moot.

Second, the U.S. Supreme Count has agreed to hear Bush's argument the FL Supreme Court overstepped its bounds in setting aside FL laws to allow an extension to filing of election results. As the wisdom goes, nothing in particular can be read into this, but it takes at least five of the nine justices to hear a case - plus they are doing so on an expedited basis. That seems to indicate a majority of the justices have some concerns about what is going on in Florida. This wouldn't seem to bode well for the Gore camp. If they overrule the FL Supreme Court - it is over. If they don't, by that time the count will be in, and it, at least at present, favors Bush. Thus, Bush may be in an can't lose situation. I don't think the FL Supreme Court is about to give an extension to anyone at this time.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 24, 2000.

FWIW, I just heard today on public radio that Texas specifically requires that dimpled chads be counted as indications of the voters intent. I thot that was interesting considering GW complaint about them in Fla.

Maybe the electoral college won't go away but I hope the states revisit their policies concerning it. I kinda like the proportional representation approach like Maine and Nebraska have. It would throw a wild card into the mix and no state would be a slam dunk for any of the candidates. That would be a good thing.

And yeah, I agree with the poster above who commented on commercial talk radio. Its only there it seems to divide and polarize rather than inform.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 24, 2000.

The Florida Legislature (both Houses) have just announced they will file with the U.S. Supreme Court to support the Bush argument the FL Supreme Court overstepped their bonds in ordering a continuation of the hand-count in Florida. They hold the U.S. Constitution specifically says selection of the member of their slate to the Electorial College is solely up to the individual state legislature and cannot be taken over by any state court.

Stay tune, but it is not looking very good for Prince Albert.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 24, 2000.

My 10 yr old son solved this fiasco while watching the evening news tonite. In his opinion, hanging chads that screw up a machine count should be counted, dimples and pimple chads are the same as a messed up pencil mark, the fault of the voter and should be thrown out. Djs' words " If a voter doesn't have brains enough to make a clear mark or punch a clean hole, throw it out. When we took the Stanford tests in 4th grade, I didn't get credit for marks outside the circle, it was my fault". Scary when a 5th grader has more intelligence than a vice president. The only good thing that has come out of all this is that I see many 10 to 16 year olds that are actually well informed on whats happening in this election and the way the involved parties are usurping the American political system. These candidates should take time to realize that these children , who now have the opportunity to evaluate the politicians will be the voters deciding political futures 2 to 8 years from now.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), November 24, 2000.

Please don't jump all over me on this question, just because I haven't followed all tiny details of these things. I am of the impression that the actual punching of the ballots was done by a machine, i.e. the person makes the selection, but the machine makes the punch. If that is the case, how could the person be blamed if the machine doesn't make a proper punch?

-- Joy Froelich (dragnfly@chorus.net), November 24, 2000.

Joy, The way the news is describing it, its done with a pressure stylus. which would meet the requirement of voter interaction. That was one of the reasons so many states got away from "voting machines", they are very easy to tamper with. But I am with you, I would like to hear from someone who actually voted on a "chad2000" punch ballot who could give an acurate description of it.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), November 24, 2000.

The ones that I have used have a metal stylus that the voter uses to punch out the chad. You merely push the stylus thru a plastic circle by the candidates name, and the chad is punched out. Very easy. I've used a 'butterfly ballot' lots of times. You just need to READ before willy-nilly punching. Also, those little pieces of card come right out. I suppose that someone could be so weak that they are unable to completely punch out the chad. But if they are that weak, how did they managed to make it into the voting booth and stand there? And since the contested ballots have other chads punched thru, how is it that these voters were only weak for part of the ballot?

-- Cheryl (bramblecottage@hotmail.com), November 24, 2000.

Sorry, I forgot to add that this is how I voted this year. It really is an easy system.

-- Cheryl (bramblecottage@hotmail.com), November 24, 2000.

I have used the punch ballot system for probably the last 30 years. As the others have said it is extremely simple. If you can't figure it out, you're too dumb to vote anyway. To make the tabs easier to punch out they are partially perferated along all four sides, such as when you tear off the bottom section of a bill. It takes very little pressure to push the stylex through the ballot. If you have enough strength to stand at the voting machine, you can damn sure punch out the tab.

It is also a very inexpensive system. Completed ballots are placed in a locked box, which then goes to election headquarters to be opened, the ballots aligned and then run through counting equipment.

Local system: You must have registered to vote by a certain date prior to the election. At the voting station you must either show a voter registration card or a form of identification. That is checked against the list of eligible voters and you are checked off. Next step is to sign the voter book, also providing address. Next step is to receive a numbered IBM-style card. That goes into the voting machine and it can only go in one way. You turn over pages in a booklet, find your candidate's hole and push the stylex through it to punch out the tab. When you are finished the ballot is taken to a another party who has you sign the top half, the ballot is separated and the punch card goes into a locked box. After voting is completed, the local workers (volunteer Democrats and Republicans) must account for every single ballot they started with.

I know the head of the County Elections Office in passing. Met her at the grocery and asked her impression of the Florida tab problem. She said it amazed her. We use the same system and have an extremely small number of problem ballots - a very, very small fraction of one percent. This year no ballot came through without a vote for a presidental candidate.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 25, 2000.

http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/product_zoom.jsp?

Check this out. It is actually a T-Shirt for sale but it shows the Bush/Gore winners by counties, not states. First time I have seen a break down like this. They should show this on the news channels, instead of only by states.

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 25, 2000.

Sorry, that link dosen't work. Here is a better one.

http://www.cafepress.com/W2000

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 25, 2000.

Modification of a new name: Prince Albert "Dimples" Gore.

Hey, he is fighting for his political career. Unless he can win the White House by whatever method basically his political career is over. His home state is TN and he is not particularly liked here either. Maybe we can send him to join Hellary in New York.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 25, 2000.

I hope they never fix the problem .I'd like to see how well the country will operate without one of those greedy , sap sucking , snivling , cry baby , in the pocket of big business , momma's boy , pecker heads. I'd bet we would do just fine.

-- hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), November 25, 2000.

They had an election in Haiti yesterday. It has been a rough one but they are still trying out democracy. Guess what??? No electricity in most of the country, no phones and no voting machines, and they know who they elected. Imagine that!!!!

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), November 27, 2000.

I had no idea that Cheney had had quadruple bypass surgery. Just how many onramps/offramps are there to the heart? Seems like his blood must bypass his heart altogether -- which just confirms my suspicions that Republicans never use their hearts anyway. I am really bummed that almost half the voters in this country would actually vote for such a less-than-mediocre, unintelligent candidate like Shrub. It boggles my mind. A politician is a politician is a politician, but at least vote for one with brains.

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), November 27, 2000.

"Voters want a fraud they can believe in" --Will Durst

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), November 27, 2000.

Sorry snoozy, If all politicians are indeed the same, I'd rather have the dumb one in office. The smart one's seem to know know best how to manipulate the system to serve their own needs. The dumb one's get caught or are too stupid to figure it out in the first place. We don't need smarter thieves in charge of our money and well being.

-- ray s. (mmoetc@yahoo.com), November 28, 2000.