Romans 13 (NIV)

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

I'm trying to figure out how these verses would have been understood and reacted to by those they were originally written to. Wasn't the "governing authority" at that time ungodly? Yet, Paul seems to be indicating quite plainly that those he is writing to are to "submit". At the time it was written, what was Paul trying to accomplish with these verses?

(For some previous discussion concerning Romans 13 see threads "Is Smoking Sin" and "Was America Really Founded on Christianity".)

-- Anonymous, November 17, 2000

Answers

Let me put it to you this way Robin......

If that crook Al Gore....ends up stealing this election...he may be YOUR president....but he will not be mine!!!

The Scripture says...."Give honor to whom honor is due".....I think it is clear.....he has no honor and is due none.

Charton Hesston.....that's my president!!!

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

Yeah Mark.....

And I also never want to live in a state again where it's my guess that a good number of people in our churches.....a) Voted for Gore....or b) Didn't vote at all!!!

So much for our BIG CHURCHES down there having any definitive influence on society.

It's good to live in a state now where people vote right!

I've been tellin' you for 2 years now Mark.....to "Get out of Sodom!!"

-- Anonymous, November 22, 2000

Link,

Having worked overseas in Jamaica for a number of years....the only thing I ever saw....was envy of America....and hands out to America.

True....many nations consider Americans "proud"....but isn't it interesting.....they always have their hands out to America. Isn't it interesting that no other nation has the immigration problems America has?? Frankly....I could care less what any other nation thinks of us.

Forgive me for being presumptious....but you, as well as others on this board at times, appear to have bought the politically correct agenda of "apologizing for America." Some people's president, Bill Clinton.....just got back from Vietnam to in essence, "right all the wrongs of America." BULL!!! Has history forgotten the atrocities committed by those people.....ON THEIR OWN PEOPLE?? But Billy Boy was too busy protesting and spitting on American flags to take note of that. In fact, he probably saw them as future DNC contributors.

We have had history revised now to such that.....we need to apologize for Christopher Columbus, the Pilgrims were money hungry white folk, Americans were the "aggressors" in WWII.

I love how people criticize America.....while all the time enjoying the fruits of those who shed their blood for the freedoms we enjoy.

I believe God has blessed America.....I believe God blesses any nation who exalts righteousness as ours has in the past. And I also believe God will turn a nation over to destruction that does not exalt righteousness as the Scripture says.

One of the beautiful things about being an American....is we have a voice....Christians have a voice.....and we need to use it. The same right that gives the athiest the right to speak out....is the same right that allows Christians to speak out......BUT TOO MANY....have been silent.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph in the world, is for good men to do nothing." The church has excelled in doing nothing except planning the next church fellowship dinner. We have allowed society to shape us.....rather than the other way around.

As per your question about the popular vote.....ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!! Our founding fathers were brilliant in the establishing of the electoral college. If we went to a popular vote....then cadidates would only have to go to the following places to win.....California, New York, Michigan, and possibly, Chicago. The rest of the states would simply be "fly over" states....(i.e., you fly over them on the way to where the votes are). The states "electoral votes".....forces candidates to take each state seriously.....because no electoral votes can be taken for granted.

I seriously doubt that the electoral college will ever be done away with. It would require an amendment which requires the majority of the house and congress......plus I believe 2/3's of the states must ratify it.....and therefore, it would only take a few states to withold their approval......in order to kill it.

And listen.....I have wearied of hearing how Al Gore won the "poplular vote." Baloney!!! The man could not even win his own state!!! Makes you question how popular he was!!

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2000

Robin,

In order to understand where Paul was going with this, one must keep in mind what was going on in society at that time. The Empire was already well into its decline, corruption was the rule - not the exception, and more & more the idea of rebellion was in the mind of the peoples under Roman domination.

Then, here came Paul, Peter, etc. preaching about a new kingdom. A heavenly kingdom that was free of all the things that they saw everyday in this Roman Kingdom. The reasoning of that day would naturally come to the conclusion that they should reject all aspects of the Roman Kingdom and deal only with the Heavenly.

But, a wholesale abandonment of Roman Rule would have lead to total anarchy and a horrendous death toll among those who rebelled (probably much more than the toll of persecuted Christians). So in the effort to save lives and prevent anarchy (both of which are mandates of scripture), Paul's advice to "give unto Caesar that which is Caesars'" helped accomplish both goals. Plus, these very same Words are God's way of establishing the roles of government and its Christian servants from that point on. And that's not to mention His repeat of the mandate for capital punishment, which was 1st given to Noah once he departed the Ark.

The one thing we have to keep in mind about this passage when we try to apply it to our current situation, is that we have a totally different type of government. Rome was a dictatorship - any stance against the gov't resulted in instant death. Not so today. God, in His infinite wisdom, has allowed us to have a system that gives the people a voice in how we are ruled.

There is an interesting correllation between the way God established His will on the earth and in the way He established Government on the earth. God did not send Christ during the days of Abraham or Moses because the people were not mentally or societarily ready to handle it. So God brought them along slowly through the Patriachial system, the Law of Moses, the period of the Prophets, a captivity as punishment, a restoration of the Remnant, and finally the promised Messiah made His will perfectly known in the world.

Similarly, God allowed government to go through different periods in order to get to a point where it was profitable for mankind. 1st we had a king - a period which had mixed results (see I & II Samuel, Kings, & Chronicles). These were followed by multiple-party ruling groups such as the Triumvirate established by Marc Anthony & Brutus after the death of Julius Caesar - these also failed due to the personal ambition, greed, etc. of the few parties involved. The Roman Catholic Church took its shot at ruling through a central figure (Pope), supported by underlings (Cardinals, Bishops, Priests), but this too failed due to corruption of those few at the top. Then a new system started to appear. People began to revolt at the oppression brought on by such groups - they wanted a say-so. This led to the Magna Carta and the Parlimentary system of sharing gov't between the Monarchy and the representatives of the people. Finally, this system was improved with the American Revolution establishing a true democracy - at least as true as a faliable mankind can have.

Interesting it is that, as Christians, we are suppossed to speak up for Christ and let our "light" shine - and now we have a system of gov't established that would allow us to do just that.

At its outset, America truly was "One Nation under God" as I believe God had a hand in it's formation since He formed the world in the first place. Unfortunately, we have managed to mess it up. We now have a corrupted system that was once established by God, but will now not even let you speak or carry His Word in many places.

However, even our current situation does not give us the right to deny the gov't what it expects - as long as it does not contradict the Scriptures. Examples: 1) I don't agree with the current Income Tax methods, but I pay my taxes because not doing so would put the govt's sword at my neck and it would also ruin my witness of Christ to those around me. 2) I deny the right to abortion on demand - but I will not kill an abortionist, as that to is murder and should be punished as such.

I WILL speak out (and vote) on these and other issues, but I will not break the laws of the Land, at least not until the laws of the Land tell me I MUST have an abortion or that I Must keep my mouth shut about Christ. THEN it is time to revolt! Who knows, maybe God is still evolving government into something better than that which was established in 1776. Time will tell.

-- Anonymous, November 17, 2000

Mark,

Thanks for a great response! I will try to respond a bit more later.... It has been busy here in Wisconsin (Deer Hunting)... Yep, I got a buck... but nothing to hang on the wall! :-)

I meet with a Doctor today at 4pm to get results back from the biopsy I had last week... please keep me in your prayers. Thanks!

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2000

Robin,

Congrats on the Buck !

I pray to doctor's trip bodes well for you.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2000

Thanks! The Biopsy came back benign, so that is Great!

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

Rome was pretty corrupt. I heard about abook written arguing for the idea that paul was telling people to submit to synagogue authorities. It sounds unconvincing to me that this is what he meant specifically, but since Jews were under the Jewish courts, probably even if they were Jewish Christians at that time, the principles here would have applied to that as well. The Romans allowed the Jews to have their own system of courts and freedom to practice their religion.

Mark, Maybe you misworded what you meant. Do you really mean that if we are forbidden from witnessing that we should REVOLT? That is, take up arms again the government. I can understand civil disobedience witha submissive heart, but the apostles did not start a revolution under these circumstances.

At the risk of being accused of being unpatriotic, I'd like to point something out to you. Most Americans, including Christians, really exalt the idea of democracy, thinking it is the best system of government inteh world. I can understand why Americans enjoy their liberties and like ourr system of government to some degree, but the Bibole does not teach tha tdemocracy is the best system of government.

From the Bible, it seems what is important is _righteous_ government. David was made king. He was chosen by God. For a while there, popular support went against him. Now, if this had happened in modern times, maybe the US would have stepped in to endorse Absalom's government- since his reign seems to have been the will of the people.

I believe God makes kingdoms rise and fall, including the US. But the Bible doesn't say America's system of government is the best, or that democracy is the best. When you travel a bit out of the US, you can see why some people consider Americans to be quite proud of themselves.

I read some about some comments by an English Christian written about 150 years ago. He thought that democracy was a bad thing because it considered authority for government to come from man rather than God. He might have been thinking of the French Revolution. But think about the democracy of the early American revolutionaries. Many drew on the idea of a 'social contract' that authority arose from contracts between men. This was in contrast to the prevailing view that authority came from God. Some earlier kings of England had insisted onthe divine right of kings- that kingdoms were given to king's families by God. (There is some truth to this, but God also took kingdom's out of kings hands in the Bible, too.)

First and foremost, we should realize that ultimately our citizen is not US, but rather we are strangers and pilgrims waiting for a country whose Builder and Maker is God.

Flag waving and singing God bless America is popular in some churches. Teaching eople that they shoudl think of themselves as foreignors in America, and not to get too caught up in earthly loyalties, including politics and excessive patriotic pride, is not too popular.

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

Link,

You asked, "Do you really mean that if we are forbidden from witnessing that we should REVOLT". That depends on what the definition of "is", is........;~)

Seriously, the answer depends on how you define the word "revolt". When (& I do mean "when" and not "if") the Liberal gov't decrees that Christians cannot speak of Christ or the Bible in public - I probably will not storm the White House with an AK-47. But I will not be silent either. I will continue to speak of my Saviour and I will continue to speak of my Constitutional RIGHT to speak.

And to be perfectly honest (especially enlight of the current election situation), when the above situation occurs, the Constitution will have (in effect) been made null & void and therefore the gov't established by that same violated Constitution will also be null & void. The result of which is anarchy - the very thing God abhors. God created an orderly universe and He ordained gov'ts to keep that order among men.

And yes at this point in time, if I truly believed that situation warranted it, I would take arms to restore order. Doing so would be protecting my family from harm (a right given in the Bible). Doing so would allow me to continue to speak of Christ (something I am bound to do as a bond-servant of Christ). And doing so would help re- establish the rights granted us by the Constitution - the gov't that was once ordained by God for this country.

Is Democracy the "perfect" gov't? Apparently not, because man has managed to corrupt it. But could not God use another Revolutionary situation to establish an improved form of gov't in 2001, just as He did in 1776? The answer to that question is "Yes"; but the question as to "will He" use a Revolution to that end is, "God only knows".

I have seen that throughout history (and throughout my own life), God provides opportunities, but it is up to us to grasp those opportunities by walking through the open doors. By nature, I'm a walker. I'll walk through those doors until the situation comes to fruition or until God closes the door.

There were a great deal of Religious people who "took arms against a sea of trouble" back in 1776 and many great things for mankind and for the Kingdom of God came about because of their foresight & willingness to go through the door of opportunity. If the same type of door opens today, should we not enter? As best as I can tell, the cry of the American Revolutionaries in 1776 still rings true - "Give me Liberty, or give me Death".

Yes, we are citizens in the Heavenly Kingdom, but unlike Paul and the rest of the Roman Empire, we also have been given freedoms to speak and act as free men as well. Paul worked within the framework of the gov't in his day (claiming his Roman Citizenship as need be) and we should do no less. I would see our unwillingness to exercise ALL of those freedoms to the benefit of Christ and our families as poor stewardship of what God granted us. And what God has given us, "let no man put asunder".

Finally, don't forget that historically (with multiple Old Testament examples) God has almost always used men (armies, revolutionaries, and even whole nations) to execute His judgement against the unrighteous. It's a VERY fine line to say that a new revolution could be viewed as such a judgement against the current regime - it's gonna take a lot of prayer and a lot of soul searching to make such a decision. May God be with us all in the days to come!!!

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

FINALLY! -- an area where I think Link and I agree. Maybe it's because living outside of the U.S. long enough gives you a different perspective on the U.S. and on other systems.

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

Well.............

It's over. The Florida Supreme Court has allowed the degenerates of society to destroy Democracy. The division of the Branches of government has been permanently breached, so from now on, the Executive Branch controls the appointed Judicial Branch and the elected Legislative Branch is a lame duck that can do nothing that would be different from what the Demoperverts want.

I'm moving to Poland before the roof of America finishes falling in on itself. Anybody looking to buy a house in Florida? (Oh....I'm sorry.....I forgot.....no one would want neighbors that are too stupid to read the words & pictures on a ballot.)

-- Anonymous, November 22, 2000

Brother Ben:

You have said:

"FINALLY! -- an area where I think Link and I agree. Maybe it's because living outside of the U.S. long enough gives you a different perspective on the U.S. and on other systems."

And I must also say that I am happy to FINALLY be able to say that I too have found an area where it appears that I agree with Brother Link!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2000

Wow, we finally agree.

Danny, According to Roman Law during most of the history prior to Christ, there was not supposed to be a king. Having an emporer was an innovation. Yet Ceasar Augustus took over and became emporer after years of political struggle, starting a dynasty that would last for a few centuries. Jesus was born during the days of Augustus. When Paul and Peter wrote to submit to rulers, a Caesar was on the trhone. Some think Peter wrote about submitting to rulers during the reign of the evil Nero.

The high priests in Israel would also trade the office around within the family, contrary to the Torah. Paul still submitted when he found out Annas was the High Priest. He'd taken letters from a high priest before. Maybe Caiaphas had been High Priest during that job. Even though according to theBible, the High Priest was a life time position, and they weren't following this (probably due to outside political pressure) Paul still submitted to Annas. He didn't refuse to submit because Annas was in office illegitimately. So why would you refuse to accept Gore?

As far as legal rights are concerned, I think there is a proper place for Christians pointing out their legal rights. Paul took advantage of his Roman citezenship on at least two occasions. On one occasion, after he had been illegally beaten, he pointed out that he was a Roman Citizen. Maybe his sufffering there might have made it less likely that the church be persecuted for a while there, since persecution might result in the scandal of beating Paul being rehashed. On another occasion, he appealed to Caesar.

I read something from Justim Martyr in which he pointed out some legal issues in regardto persecuting Christians.

What we need to be aware of is that democracy is not a part of our religion. The Bible does not have pages of information about how God loves America specifically. There are pages and pages about God's love for another nation, Israel. We Gentiles are grafted in to the olive tree. We are not the natural branches.

Remember that some of the writers whose ideas were borrowed by founders of our nation had some humanistic ideas about government. More traditional types believed governmental authority came from God. These men taught that governmental authority came form a social contract. One group of men gave authority to another group of men. While many religious people did accept the idea of democracy, many have made the mistake of incorporating the American flag, democracy, etc. into their religion. Many people believe in America and democracy more than they believe in the Bible.

Abroad, some other countries consider America to be very proud of itself. When you grow up in America, talk about America and how great it is seems like no big deal, because you are used to it. When you go abroad, and realize that other people exist, and hear them talk with concern about their own contries, it broadens your perspective. The US government sometimes considers rulers of countries who did not fairly win elections to be illegitimate rulers. Many Americans have that attitude toward dictators. Yet we have plenty of examples in scripture of rulers that we are told God raised up who were not democratically elected. The saints are strangers and pilgrims on this earth.

Frankly, I think Bush is going to win. I doubt Gore will be able to turn all this around by legal maneuvering before the end of December. And he would still need to get enough votes to win. If the overseas ballots get counted, then Bush may get enough votes for Gore to not be able to catch up. Besides, both the Florida legislator and the Senate are controlled by Republicans. The election could go to congress, and I think they would give Bush the lead, barely, unless there were a major public outcry against it.

If Bush can establish himself as the winner of the election in the public eye, maybe Gore will just start to look rediculous. If that happens, then I think the whole Gore thing would fizzle out. Maybe publishing a Dr. Suess style book on Gore, like the one in another thread on Gore could help Gore trying to get more votes look silly.

Btw, Danny, if you are a strong believer ind emocracy, do you believe the US should just elect presidents mroe democractically by going by the popular vote? In a pure democracy, wouldn't Gore have probably won the election? Frankly, I just hope Bush wins whether or not he gets the popular vote.

Danny, just how many independant Christian Churches and Churches of Christ are there nationally and in Florida in particular?

-- Anonymous, November 26, 2000

Brother Link;

You have said:

"Wow, we finally agree. "

You say this as if we finally agree completely on all things. Or you imply that after much struggle we finally agree on this issue when in fact we already, before even discussing the matter with each other have reached similar conclusions about it. I am convinced that you did not mean it in either of these senses.

But just in case I want to make it clear that I said that we appear to agree on the issue of this particular thread concerning the Christians relation to the government. But there is no need to get carried away with the idea that we therefore finally are in full agreement with each other. For we both know that such is not the truth.

I am indeed happy to find an area wherein it appears that we agree and would even be far more pleased if we could be in complete agreement with the truth as it is found in the word of God. I pray that such a day may come.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. `Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, November 27, 2000