Urgent: midweek November 18

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Messages which absolutely need to be seen today due to time constraints or breaking news. Remember to check the"new answers" link for the most active topics. This topic will run for a week, and then we will start a new dated "urgent" file.

-- Anonymous, November 17, 2000


Met a friend last night at Wing Shui take-out in Kingston: I was getting dinner, he was getting lunch. His take on Marty Millman: When MM & his wife brought up the charges of anti-semitism they received no support from the community, in fact were treated as cranks. Now he's raging against those who didn't support him.....

At the meeting Monday, I don't think we can attack MM or try to implicate him: there's no way we can prove he ever saw anything but the letter. But reading excerpts from the FC article about the CARE connection would be good, with the "we" and "our"... stressing the kind of support their position generates.

-- Anonymous, November 17, 2000

I am duplicating our press release/backup info and will have it at the meeting on Monday night...need one or two people willing to pass it out to those coming into the meeting....Volunteers? I'll be inside with my camera at the usual spot...volunteers??? let me know.

Can't speak to all the details of what happened around the nastiness with MM and wife, except to say they seem to have said it was a nazi-type cabal within the Phoenicia school that was leading the attack...this was taken very seriously by Hal and the administration who did investigate...found no credence for in-school stuff...MM went beyond to other investigators...never heard any results??? Has anyone else...Sad that he felt dissed. Doesn't absolve him from poor judgment in this case. T.

-- Anonymous, November 17, 2000

Here's another variable to throw into the mix: Ada Montare.

(I must apologize for referring to her for some reason as Ada Moncure, don't know where that comes from -- and it should be noted that Hal Rowe has a habit of referring to Charles as David Yow, maybe he knows someone of that name).

What I know of her involvement is her non-involvement, that she "hadn't been asked." But as far as I know, she had only asked the two factions of the Board. On the surface, it seems from the description on her link that her services might be useful. With the anti-Semitism component, this is clearly something that is getting her attention. She never talked to us. Should we talk to her? After all, we are the part of "the community" that is actively involved in the Indian issue.

Whaddya think?

-- Anonymous, November 17, 2000

I sent an email to Ada Montare but it came back.. anyone have a better email for her...

To: adamontare@usdoj.gov

Ms. Ada Montare,

My name is Dennis Yerry and I am one of the first people to bring up the mascot issue here at Onteora. I am of Native American ancestry and am also active in the group S.T.A.N.D. (Support Tolerance and Nurture Diversity).

I am curious because the interviews that you have responded to always quote you as saying that neither side was interested in having the DOJ involved and yet I was the first person to call Lawrence Baca and initially the Board of Education voted to bring the DOJ in and work with the community. Noone on our side of the issue ever remembers talking to you or being approached in any way. All that I remember being told about your involvement is that you were interested in only working with the kids and not with the adults.

I'm sure that you are very busy, but if you have time, maybe you can clarify these things for me.

Thank you,

Dennis Yerry

-- Anonymous, November 17, 2000

Dennis--I remember the same thing, the Ada Montare didn't meet with us at all, just some Board members, and that she said she would come in to work with the kids. I also remember that the Board (previous one) did vote to have her come in, and I'm not sure why that never happened. But you were definitely reaching out to her in the beginning. So I don't know why she is presenting it as she is now, when that really isn't how it went down. Never-the-less, I agree that we should reach out (again) to her now, since it looks like she's more receptive.

-- Anonymous, November 18, 2000

I keep hearing the letter that we have a copy of came to Millman by mail. How do we know this? I have asked twice and have never been told Millman received the letter by mail, makes me wonder if maybe Millman received it from someone local (left at store, house...), this need clarified.

An additional matter that needs clarified is the total number of letters, as well as when the letters arrived, other contact Millman has had with these people, and the dates and circumstances. I suspect this might have played at least a small role in expediting the vote. As I see it there are a lot of unanswered questions.

Charles mediate@goldinc.com

-- Anonymous, November 19, 2000

The agenda is nowe posted on the district's web site at: http://www.onteora.k12.ny.us/11-20-00.htm

Agenda item for discussion and possible action: Charles Yow, Esq., urges Board of Trustees to publicly, “…reject the offered support of racists” in the Mascot issue.

Seems to open the gates for anything we want to say..since it's clear what prompted the agenda item. Whoever is considering reading the hate article should confer with Susan Buckler at 679-8500 or at work tomorrow at 336-2616, since she is also considering reading it (or part of it)...and should be clear that it contains errors of fact along with its claims of local involvement.

-- Anonymous, November 19, 2000

If the error in the second paragraph is from the letter to Millman, as much as I hate to point it out again, the error was not in the letter, but in my copying the letter I misspelled the URL, it is correct in the original letter to Millman (Tobe has a copy of the letter Millman faxed me if an original is needed-if anyone else wants an actual copy let me know).

Charles mediate@goldinc.com

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2000

No the error is that of the Woodstock Times editor, who re-wrote Rene's piece and said that the letter from Concerned Patriot was also on the Web, which it isn't

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2000

With its usual kindness and consideration, Final Conflict takes on multiculturalism again in #1484, 11/16/00:

ENGLAND: A.A. MILNE - RACIST? [Ed: Ho ho! Those of you with kiddies in multi-racist schools now know what to get your kids to take in - piglet books, bags, teddies, pencils, rulers, T-shirts etc. -- just try and get them from a back- street non-Disney source!]: Muslims want Pooh, not Piglet Martin WainwrightWednesday November 15, 2000 The usually inseparable literary duo of Winnie the Pooh and Piglet may spend this Christmas apart in a number of children's stores, to respect the sensitivities of devout Muslim parents.

Mothercare outlets in West Yorkshire have reported a number of polite requests for Pooh products - which range from games to bathmats - to be sold without the bear's small friend to avoid problems over pigs' unclean status in Islam. The chain is now investigating the legal niceties of licensing agreements, which almost invariably cover products showing Pooh trekking about with Piglet in tow. Although occasionally twinned with Eeyore the donkey or Owl, A A Milne's bear spends most of his time rescuing the pig from fixes.

"It could be that we are unable to divorce Winnie the Pooh from Piglet," said a Mothercare spokeswoman, whose colleagues in West Yorkshire have been keen to find a solution. Staff at one branch said that mothers had been coming back, slightly embarrassed, and asking if Piglet-free products were available, but "it had taken a bit of time for the penny to drop."

Nissar Ahmed from the Leeds Muslim community said that most pictures in a Muslim house would have a religious significance. He said: "I would think that no Muslim would want pictures of pigs, even the harmless character Piglet."

Hey, anyone who is at the meeting tonight -- if I turn even paler than usual, let me know, I'm a bit under the weather and don't want to keel over.

-- Anonymous, November 20, 2000

Debriefing time! Meeting went on till 11, I spoke last of the public- be-heard speeches in the second set. Grueling. Correct me if you saw things differently, here's my very tired take on all:

Beginning of the meeting the PBH had some passionate speeches about the Final Conflict material, including our own talented and vivacious Donna (even if you didn't feel that way, you did fine). I handed out about 50 of the information packets

Came time for Charles's request that the Board consider repudiating this racist stuff. Mention was made of Marty lying to Charles about the existence of Concerned Patriot's letter, but I think it passed over most heads. Marty claims that on the 21st he faxed CP's letter to Chelli and Doan and Donaghue, and says that on Sept 22 Donoghue faxed it to Rowe. Meg and Marino collaborated on some wording for a resolution, it was passed with Many Noble Spewings of Concerned Highminded Verbiage, as Pooh would say. Greg Walters mutters he has no idea where all this came from (RTFHandout, Greggie). Joe Doan later says that we should get up a petition and have everyone in the community sign it to show the outside world We Care. Joe Vanacore has of course, like Elvis, left the building long ago. (Is he going to use as a re-election slogan, "I breathe. Sometimes I vote. Re-elect me."?)

What a lot of faxing in September, and they still hadn't seen anything but the FC website, and still were utterly in the dark about what Onteora had to do with this, you might remember. And if these faxes were received, each of the recipients were negligent in not following up what in hell it was that Concerned Patriot was talking about. CP's letter was not racist or anti-Semitic, it was mere warm fuzzy platitudes.

So I reminded them of some of the background and timeline, not as well as I'd have liked. I think I'll follow it up with an email, reiterating, copies to the board, Chelli and Donoghue. Mentioned I was there to give information, not opinion, that I'd done much of the online research and probably knew better that most the context. Mentioned that Marty had said in the Wdst Times that he had not idea that this would be national, I said it is all over the Web and people were watching, and that the tire vandalism even made a San Diego paper a few weeks ago, and that every article on the mascot issue gets seen on the Web. Made sure to point out that the e-zine pieces were not accessible from the Final Conflict website that Concerned Patriot pointed to, and that a Grand Dragon of the Klan lived in this county. I reminded them that the person in the most anti-semitic letter "seems to claim" (I suppose that's the best way of putting it?) to be a member of CARE? Only ones of them who spoke up were the D'Erricos at the end, with the usual maundering and attacks. So at this point CARE has never spoken out against the tire vandalism, even though the nature of the victims suggests that it was done by someone who supports their agenda, nor did they speak out tonight to say anything regarding the Final Conflict material.

All the while, Rose Ostrander and Barbara Clare kibitz in the back. Now of course CARE has had since Thursday to prepare a statement repudiating the person who is dragging their name into the mud here, but they have said nothing.

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

If Millman sent the letter to Doan that is even more concerning because that means both the figurehead of the board and the power behind the board are involved! I do not believe the NY AG's office knew because Tanya did not know. Seems it is just another in a series of falsehoods.


-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

I am constantly learning something new "a Grand Dragon of the Klan lived in this county" ? In Ulster County?

Can someone explain what the connection between Ulster County and Bangor, PA and Bethlehem, PA-the connection was mentioned as important by a Fed today (all I know is it involves white supremacists).


-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

I found the meeting disappointing, at least the little part I was there for. Great turnout, but why aren't people speaking up? I think I'm not going to speak for a long time. Maybe if we are not speaking, other people will feel compelled to do so. I found Phyllis Rosato's PBH comments most moving. For those of us in the eye of the storm, there has been a lot of pain caused, but somehow it goes on unchecked. It kills me how they manage to come off so righteous.

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

Charles, check somewhere in the last couple of weeks, I recall posting something about the KKK Dragon. It's a Klan spin-off, I think -- "Church of"or something? But this was the Dragon of the NY and NJ chapters, based in the southern part of the county.

The Freeman article now up. Darned if it wasn't that pesky Internet at fault. Why didn't we think of that? Bad, BAD Internet. Bet it put the screws in our tires too. "Damn that Al Gore for inventing it," said CARE spokeswomyn Rose Rainwater Cohen- Goldstein Ostrander when cornered by a reporter.

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

I just got a letter from Renee Samuels. The Woodstock Times won't run the anti-Semitic letter in full because people saw most of it in the article last week. :(

Fact-checking question here: did any of us actually get our tires slashed, or was that a mistake in one article (and if so, anyone remember which paper?) that has been perpetuated?

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

I recall someone mentioning a tire being slashed, but do not recall who mentioned it.


-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

Well, seems I stayed inside, while the hot action was in the hall. Oh well...Jim you better start carying a digital camcorder!!

I agreed it all went very predictably, and much like Carol says, with high-minded rhetoric all around.

The tires being slashed was an error in reporting/shorthand used in the artice ethat was in the San Diego paper...I just knew that would become the way nails/screws would get referred to.

At the end, just before Carol's input, i spoke up. Previously Joe Doan tried to get Hal on yet another point. He (Doan) objected to Hal's passing out to the principals the packet of stuff I (STAND) presented to him about Thanksgiving from a different perspective that i got from Ishgooda's Native Web. Excellent materials that will open eyes, but of course it said, "FYI, Please consider these points when planning Thanksgiving celebrations with your students." Thanks, from STAND..alarm bells must have gone off... The "intent" (there's that word, again) was to have some information out that might forstall any inappropriate "playing of Indian" at erstz Thanksgiving feasts particularly in the elementary schools. Doan upbraided Hal for daring to pass out materials that he (Hal) didn't know were "factual"...Had Hal checked them for accuracy???...since we were so interested in accuracy in teaching Native history...blah blah blah high sounding, once again...until Marino took him on and said there is no "fact" of history, only in math and science are there facts...history only presents perspectives and basically, who was he (Doan) to short-circuit intellectual freedom.? Marino was fearless in this...

So in my short presentation, after asking the board to go into the community and get all the groups they're affilitaed with on the record to disavow this hate stuff...(I mentioned, educational groups (Can you name one they belong to?) libraries, fire depts., etc.)I said STAND would not be censored, that we would continue to donate materials to the school, for consideration by any teachers, students aor staf...No censorship! Rah Rah.

so, now i want to make a public presentatioon of our diversity materials and the book Dancing at Halftime, at the next meeting...dennis you got the book? I'll get our materials together...anyone else want to offer worthwhile materials for our "save the school book drive???"


PS all the speakers were great...and the reposnse was as exopected, but today i spoke to a reporter from the herald (Midletown) who said Bev Stein was complaining we brought it up oinly to bring the isseu back on the table, and we were pointing a finfer at CARE. I assured the rpeoter (Alan Snel) that the issue has never been off the table, and we weren't pointing fingers at anyone, merely publishing the nasty stuf so people could draw their own conclusions and that sunlisght makes a great disinfectant.

yadayada yada

Also got a call from the NY City ADL wanting to say that we had their ear...looking for anything beyond anecdotal reports. Anyone got anything real for them???(they've heard similar over the years). They knew about the grand dragon James Sheehy (or Sheeley) from Walden...found in NY press accounts of a KKK rally last year (Try google for a search on KKK and his name)...and the Nazi guard at eastern Correctional( former employemnt locale of our very own "member" of the board.) but he did not know about nails and screws, so i filled him in...he is listening and we can send him anyhting we think is pertinent including press stuff..

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

Tobe, did you get that whiteracist.com from Hal? I sent it to him this afternoon and wasn't able to get back online til now. Or were great minds thinking alike and hitting google?

This "fingerpointing" idea has to stop. I think that given that CARE has never once renounced the vandalism of our tires, and did not come out in public about the FC e-zine letter, I think it is legitimate to ask what has to happen before they will make any public comment and disavow any connections with these acts.

The pious answer to Doan about the Thanksgiving material would have been to ask if he wants to censor this information before he has even read it? When is Joe going to learn that if you are unsure about whether material is appropriate, you have to read it and analyse it?

Talk to Hal about protocols of donating book(s) to the library, see if there are any hoops we have to jump through. We don't want to be hit with some sort of barrier they can activate at will to keep from accepting any donated books.

-- Anonymous, November 21, 2000

Kemble has another article today, this time focusing on the Thanksgiving materials Tobe suggested to Hal. I've already replied on line, suggesting that Doan read it first before having a knee-jerk reaction, and mentioning that it was not developed by STAND, a quick look at its 1986 copyright would tell him that.

-- Anonymous, November 22, 2000

The Thanksgiving resource is on Ishg ooda's site

-- Anonymous, November 22, 2000

I followed up carol's great note with one of my own...read it online..on the freemasn site 9assuming they post it) Funny I had totally missed the article in the print version...I gave the web site and the outline of the materials...can't wait until we donate books, etc...hal doesn't seem to have a problem if we want to do a presentation at a board meeting..he has the classroom materials "lost" in his office piles...he'll find them and we'll talk once more before deciding how best to proceed. Is it fun yet?..Joe Doan..Censor of the Year..he gets my vote! how about a placque...???

-- Anonymous, November 22, 2000

Tobe's answer was not yet on at 3:30, if it doesn't get on it may be because it includes a website address -- I once had a reply that may not have gotten on because of that, I suspect. they may be leery of links that they can't thoroughly check out.

Boy, Curry certainly elicited a wacky rant to his letter yesterday, didn't he?!

Regarding last night's discussion on commercialism in schools, there was a program discussing advertising on WAMC's Vox Pop, one caller mentioned a study that found that the average 6 year old can identify 1000 corporate logos, but only 10 living plants...

Chicago Tribune article on Chief Illiniwek found by Jane.

-- Anonymous, November 22, 2000

Middletown Herld- Record

Tobe, in your mention in the H-R, you had to be a bit on the defensive about "not pointing fingers" at CARE. But what sort of phrasing can we use that clearly indicates that we are disturbed that the writer of the hate letter seems to be claiming they are a member of CARE? It really seems to be getting lost in the shuffle. I'd like to respond to the H-R, but am I out of line with this proposed response? (if so, rewrites welcome):

"The wording of the racist and anti-Semitic letter asking for support to restore the Onteora Indian mascot strongly suggests that the writer is claiming to be a member of the CARE group. Whether or not that is founded on fact, CARE was slow to disavow any connection with that letter and never spoke out against the vandalism to the tires of those who oppose the Indian mascot. We would welcome hearing CARE publicly announce that none of their supporters condone verbal or physical attacks upon individuals involved in these controversial issue, and that none of their supporters are involved with hate groups like Final Conflict."

Comments on the above, please?

You all may want to maybe once a week do a search of the online Freeman by typing "onteora" into their search box. I tried that tonight, found some smaller articles that I hadn't seen in the regular issue.

-- Anonymous, November 22, 2000

Elvis has left the building and will retyrun on sat PM..as if anyone will notice...Bummer article in newsweek...not only did the reporter put two of meg's quotes together into one (out of context...) but she didn't do her homework, and made things fit into her POV...Guess others will have to respond with a list of anti-mascot triumphs for the year...

Have a fun time. Tobe

PS Would like to consider hosting a showing on "NOt in Our Town".

What do you think?

-- Anonymous, November 23, 2000

I'm concerned that showing "Not in Our Town" in December would hit too many holiday conflicts. What about as an anniversary marking of the beginning of the mascot saga in January?

I'm working on an analysis of this whole Final Conflict affair to go to the Board members and any other interested parties (Tanya, Chelli, Tanaz, etc). Looking at the timeline I think we can drop our theory that Concerned Patriot's letter could have affected the timing of the Board's decision to move up the vote to rescind the anti-racism resolution, since Concerned Patriot's letter was allegedly written the same day the decision went on the agenda, Sept 8. Doing a search on Millman, I cannot find his fax number on the web, so we must assume it came by mail. The timing is a bit strange, however -- surface from Britain is usually at least 3 weeks, and airmail would have taken usually about 5 days -- so Marty didn't collect any mail from the district offices til the 20th? We still don't know the form the letter came in, I find it odd that the letter as faxed seems to be in a typeface very close to that of Millman's cover sheet though not matching entirely (I held up one sheet in back of another to match the "the" on both sheets, slight size difference).

We can probably rule out any affect the Final Conflict e-zine pieces in August might have had on the Board's moving up on the resolution as well, since that doesn't seem to have been known (at least as far as we can yet determine) by anyone til November 8. If someone was leaning on the Board then, it wasn't from that source.

I'll be checking with some folks mentioned to confirm their receipt of the ConcernedPatriot letter which Marty allegedly faxed.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2000

I need an email address for Andrew Celli, to try to confirm his receipt of the Millman fax. And is his name pronounced "kelli" or "chelli" or "selli"?

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2000

I've just located a page for the Final Conflict e-zine archives

I'm not seeing the main Final Conflict homepage as being on any unorthodox server, it's just seeming to be on the dialup -pipex one. The e-zine leads back to what seems to be a more mainstream server too. While they are undoubtedly violating their TOS (terms of service), I suggest that we don't rat on them simply because at present we want to know where they are in plain sight.

-- Anonymous, November 24, 2000

The Geocities site is nothing more than a mirror site as noted on the page itself, additionally the Geocities site is not current. The actual Final Conflict site is current to 11/24/2000, the mirror site is only current to 11/14/2000. The actual site remains on a server in England and is not a normal site in the American sense. I would be in favor of taking action to shut the US based site down because there are no British/EU privacy laws involved.


-- Anonymous, November 24, 2000

Charles, are we literally not on the same page here?

The Final Conflict home page at http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/finalconflict/ (the one Concerned Patriot pointed us to) does not have a date on it anywhere that I can see. This is the home page for the _hardcopy_ magazine, not the e- zine. Its link to the ezine archives is dead. I'm not sure how current the present page's articles are, but it is worth noting that the Hot News article about the OD was reprinted on another site in mid-July.

The e-zine archive http://www.geocities.com/fc_archive/ is indeed behind in cataloguing the e-zine issues by a week or so, but does not mention that it is a mirror. If anyone wants to get to the list of what the e-zine passes on electronically, one can work up the URL chain on the syninfo addresses to open it at the 2000 file, but one will get the full set of forwards of miscellaneous articles listed as well.

A page at whiteracist.com, where the 8/25 info was reprinted, boasts that the Final Conflict e-zine used to have a subscription, but unsubscribed because one of whiteracist.com's articles was too hot for them.

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2000

I'm curious...

Doesn't it seem that the Onteora article went up on the whiteracist.com page only a week ago. We searched and searched Google and it never came up before.

I have this feeling that someone is trying to put this in our face...

Otherwise wouldn't they have tried to hide it, instead of spreading it...

Just wondering...

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2000

Dennis, Google has recently been upping the number of pages they say they've catalogued, it may just be that. I know that doing a search on my own name is now pulling up about 47 items, some of them a year old, but it is more than double what it would pull last year.

Looking at the page from whiteracist.com, the other dated articles are contemporary with the FC piece.

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2000

I've just sent this in to the Times Herald-Record, we'll see if it gets printed:

The wording of the racist and anti-Semitic letter asking for support to restore the Onteora Indian mascot strongly suggests that the writer is claiming to be a member of the CARE group. Whether or not that is founded on fact, CARE was slow to disavow any connection with that letter and never spoke out against the vandalism to the tires of those who oppose the Indian mascot. We would welcome hearing CARE publicly announce that none of their supporters condone verbal or physical attacks upon individuals involved in these controversial issues, and that none of their supporters are involved with hate groups like Final Conflict. Otherwise, their silence about these acts which seem to have been committed by those in favor of their policies has been very disturbing.

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2000

In case anyone was getting depressed about the newsweek article, here's one of the responses that was sent to the editor...keep up the spirit.. Tobe

----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Eurich" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 7:23 PM Subject: "Indian" sports team tokens

> > Regarding the article "Mind Your Own Mascot" by Devin Gordon and Sarah Downey > http://www.msnbc.com/news/491998.asp?cp1=1 > > Aside from the fact that the authors of this piece based their article on a false> premise - the idea that resistance to retiring "Indian" sports team tokens is> something new - they attempted to blur the concept regarding the use of such mascots as being racist. While it is important to separate the sinner from the sin these > practices are indeed racist. Clearly, the dominate Euro-American society believes it is their entitled "right" to use stereotypical characterizations of an under-represented, disenfranchised, and historically oppressed group as "their" mascot - despite what those who are the subjects of this purported "tribute" have to > say. This is tokenism plain and simple especially since the vast majority of responsible Native American advocacy organizations (and many non-Native groups)have long urged the retirement of these racial icons borne of a bygone era. The obstinate refusal of the majority to show genuine respect for the legitimate concerns many > Native People have expressed about these things only tends to further highlight the fact that this issue is not merely about nicknames and symbols but about control and purely selfish motives. > > It might also be pointed out that, in truth, more and more schools continue to change their "Indian" sports team tokens even if some remain entrenched in their antiquated, ethnocentric mindset. Perhaps such progressive actions are not newsworthy as they indicate a healing, unifying gesture and thus do not lend themselves to the abrasive, controversial stories upon which the media thrives.

> No, struggle for American Indian rights, social justice, and equality are nothing new. It has been going on for 508 years. But progress is being made and will continue to be made regardless of some writers' and other individuals' unreasonable resistance and shamelessly myopic attitudes. > > > Sincerely, > > Robert Eurich > Endicott, NY > > > American Indian Sports Team Mascots > http://earnestman.tripod.com/ > > "Little drops of rain wear away the greatest of stones."

-- Anonymous, November 25, 2000

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