At Sierra Times' website they have set the date for civil disobedience to protest our government eroding our freedoms: Dec 18 2000. It will be easy for me, I'm disobedient to this materialistic culture on a regular basis:) I will be making flyers to hang in store windows. Any one else have ideas on how to get the word out? I highly doubt the media will mention it.

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), November 15, 2000

Answers

Yeah, I'm like you. I tend to be a little disobedient every chance I get. You might try putting a little ad in your local paper. Don't you know some people who are a little radical- thinking? Call them and ask them to spread the word. At least a little hell raising could be drummed up. And try the local media. Sometimes they need a little something to fill some space. I'm all for you. Good luck.

-- Shooter (jcole@apha.com), November 15, 2000.

Count me in to help spread the word, I wonder what my dear brother has in mind to celebrate this event, he's a professional computer hacker, I mean, systems analyst, and loves to monkey wrench when ever he can further the cause! How appropriate that it is on the day our Electors vote for the presidency! Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 15, 2000.

Just got done emailing every paper in the state of Maine and the local news channels. We'll see if any of them care to do the story. I know a couple of the papers are alternative newspapers, one even called "Free Press". Next, I'm looking up radio stations! I hope enough people take action-or rather inaction. I wrote the papers suggesting people spend the day writing their representatives, reviewing the Constitution and Bill of Rights with their kids, or watching movies like "The Patriot", "Braveheart", or "Ghandi".

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), November 15, 2000.

When I think of civil disobedience I think of rioting, looting, burning, and other events of private and public property distruction. I for one CANNOT condone such, and I don't see how anyone else in their right mind can. It's sad when people truly believe that they have to resort to this sort of thing. What next, terroristic bombings? It's a sad day my fellow Americans when people not only condone it, but encourage it. I hang my head in shame that we seem headed to Mid-East tactics.

-- Notforprint (Not@thekeyboard.com), November 15, 2000.

Notforprint: civil disobedience is simply being disobedient to civil authorities. Look at what Ghandi accomplished when he had a whole nation passively rebelling against English occupation. The English left and violence only came when the Hindus wanted a seperate country from India, which Ghandi stopped by fasting. Inactivity is more potent than activity because it cuts the government off. What if an employee of the electric company decided to shut down for a day? The Whitehouse may have backup energy sources, but the inconvenience would get the President's attention! How about bus drivers? Store owners? Airline pilots? Cabbies in NY city? Delivery trucks? UPS? What if nobody shopped for a day or worked: no taxes to be had by the government for that day! A nationwide strike if you prefer that term to civil disobedience.

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), November 15, 2000.

Pehaps we should clarify, NONVIOLENT civil disobedience, like as used by Dr. Martin Luther King, the Dali Lama, Ghandi, Alexander S., Nelson Mandela, Mother Theresa, and many others. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 15, 2000.

I wonder how we can do that, I for one don't know if a strike would mean disobedience against the government unless you work for them. I am all for shaking things up to get maybe some reform going. But a regular person like me...I don't know. Maybe drive without a license and do something stupid for which I will be stopped? I feel stupid right now just asking. ps. I am serious, no kidding

-- Aagje Franken (Backyardy2k@aol.com), November 15, 2000.

Aagje: For me, it's the way I live my life daily, as well as homesteaders in general. I took my kids out of public school which caused the school system to loose federal funds for each child. I make less than necesary for reporting taxes, so I work pretty much under the table. Fuel prices are high due to the taxes on it, so staying home for the day will save gasoline and in turn, the taxes gained from whatever gas you would have used is not going to the government. Same with the money from taxes on clothing you might have bought or snack foods(depending on which state you live in). The little things add up when multiplied by the millions of citizens. Shop at a farmer's market or roadside stand instead of a grocery store. Figure $1, per person each day in taxes is millions of dollars each day that the government gets. Any little thing you do counts. Using email instead of snailmail keeps money from the government run post office. We just need to get the word out so as many as possible can join in and it will effect things that much more. I had given up on seeing change for the better, especially hearing talk of succession and revolution, but this idea has given me a new hope. This can really work if we get enough people involved. And no one needs to get hurt.

Two days ago the newspaper reported that the government was instructing potatoe farmers to grow less potatoes. This will raise the cost of potatoes. This is the type of thing we want to speak out against.

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), November 15, 2000.

Civil Disobedience requires a bit of organization. You have to have a clear plan and a clear intention. You can't just not buy Snapple ice tea for one whole day. Disobedience always means that there is a chance that you will be arrested....for non compliance. For instance, if we wanted to protest something that would bring massive national coverage, it would have to have a large effect on $$$$$. Or travel, or communication. You can tie yourswelf to a fence at a particular location or just stop your cars dead in the middle of the freeways and walk away...lots of cars, lots of freeways. The intent has to be clear and you need to have some signs so people can get an idea of what you are doing.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 16, 2000.

Epona, I can do that. I do that in many wys anyway and live practically down town, grow some of my own food and walking a lot!I still pay taxes tho.I still work but can't wait to live on our property. I direct a Crisis pregnancy center and I don't really know if I ever can retire. I'll join for Dec18th and spread the word. Thanks for explaining, Ada.

-- Aagje Franken (Backyardy2k@aol.com), November 16, 2000.

Epona; I like your idea, I call it "stop feeding the beast". And I also just found J. J.'s site and stagger at all of the info. therein. Actually, if truckers shut down for a day,dont you think it could really cripple the economy, etc.? Could you please tell me the wording on the flyers that you are making? We have a cafe' with a large wall in the entryway with flyers, sale bills, etc.

-- Beth Weber (talmidim88@hotmail.com), November 16, 2000.

Hi Beth! I was going to work on exactly what the flyers were going to say today. I couldn't last night because Bill was home and he's not real supportive of any of my "activism": he cringes at my letters to the editor despite people aproaching me on the street to tell me they like them alot. I figure for the truck stops, the fliers will focus on gas being so expensive due to taxes, plus they just passed a law dictating the number of hours truck drivers are allowed to drive without stopping. For the farm coops, the government regulation of how much they can grow will be emphasized. Forestry will be sent fliers about land use regulations, and so on. But the theme will be the common ground of overgrown government and will include the suggestions on reading the Constitution and Bill of Rights, writing letters, and watching movies with patriotic themes that day. Once my creative juices get flowing, I never know what's going to come out:) We have the rest of this month to get the word out. I emailed all the local radio stations, etc, but nothing in my email yet this morning. I'll keep everyone up to date and when I come up with fliers, I'll post the info here, but you know your area and local interests. Emphasise your local gripes as they apply to the overgrown government theme. One line I think I might include would say something like: It's time to stop being divided by race, sex, age, income, and religion, to stand united as "The People" to send a message to whomever gets into the Whitehouse next term that we want to be heard over big money, big business, and special interests.

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), November 16, 2000.

About a year ago there was a day of civil disobedience and a rally planned in my community in MT. As the day grew closer, the city council and county officials issued a warning to the organizers that all expenses associated with the rally (extra law officers, any damage to public and private property that might occurr, traffic cops, etc.) would be the financial responsibility of the organizers. Some stores decided to close for the day and so they also issued a warning that the organizers would be held responsible for lost revenue for that day. The rally was cancelled.

-- Marci (ajourend@libby.org), November 16, 2000.

I frankly do not see what difference it will make whether you buy your powdered sugar on one day or another. You have still bought it. If you want to really make a difference, you will have to stop buying everything, or at least everything of one particular type, for a long period of time. I mean, what impact does it have if you run out and stock up now and then run out immediately after the "civil disobedience" and buy the replacement? It will have no impact. Perhaps the subject of civil disobedience should be researched further. There seems to be some misconception about it's definition and what is necessary for impact.

-- (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), November 16, 2000.

Marci: I could see a need for cops if people were to take to the streets, but none are needed if they are just going to stay home. No trucks are being encouraged to stop traffic, just park it for a day. They can't hold anyone responsible for the revenue because it's going to be nationwide and there are no organizers- this is a grassroots effort, not being put on by one organization or one class of individuals. It's people in each state spreading the word to others who spread the word. Maybe they'll hold Sierra Times responsible, but that's like holding the preachers of the church of scientology responsible if their rank and file members' kids die from lack of medical treatment: they just make suggestions, they don't tell people exactly what to do... been there as a former Witness who love to sue their butts!

Ratdogs: For thoase who don't prepare (from the catagory of those who don't prepare for possible winter snowstorms), this would disrupt their day for sure, and yes, the money not spent one day may have just been spent on another, but if the day is set aside for letter writing and focusing on what the government should and should not be doing, just think of all the letters the Whitehouse will be inundated with as well as every other branch of government! They may not read them all, but they'll get the message: the people first!

BTW all: the symbol for the day is an upsidedown flag which traditionally represents a country in distress. And did you all hear that when Clinton visits Vietnam, he has made a presidential mandate that the American flag will be lower on the flagpole than the Vietnam flag? Respect to the host country, yes, but concession to communism? What do you think?

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), November 16, 2000.

Why do they need a bunch of cops of somebody is going to protest peacefully in the streets? And I think it would be a stretch for a city to make protesters pay for extra cops on duty. I just don't think that would happen. It's our right to protest and we don't have to pay a tax or a fee or for city services to do so. I just don't think a city could do that. They might try to scare somebody out of protesting but I'll bet you five bucks they couldn't make that paying thing stick. No way.

-- Shooter (jcole@apha.com), November 16, 2000.

Might have been a bluff from the city and county but it worked. Yes, extra cops probably would have been needed to handle pedesterians and traffic during the parade (for which a permit was obtained) but then whenever a "legitimate" parade or rally is being held, the organizers of that are not held financially responsible for the extra security. Nor for any lost revenue.

This was a local event although groups from all over the western states were planning to attend as the event gained attention. At no time did the organizers promote violence, just an act of civil disobedience in protest to the constitutional rights which are being lost at a rapid rate and to increasing government control. Rumors started flying of riots and violence, which only fueled the city and counties decisions. The day the rally was scheduled to happen, state police set up roadblocks on the one main highway that runs through the county, just outside of town, and stopped anyone who looked like they were planning to attend.

-- Marci (ajourend@libby.org), November 16, 2000.

The cops can't legally do that either. Somebody needs to push them some and then challenge them in court. Cut them down a few notches.

-- Shooter (jcole@apha.com), November 16, 2000.

I agree Shooter. One of the 3 organizers is a close friend. He was personally "promised" by the police that he would be arrested if the rally wasn't cancelled. He has a wife and 2 kids and needs that weekly paycheck so he oblidged them. The folks who were stopped drove back up the road to the rest area and re-grouped there, finally went home.

Perhaps in a more populated area,(less than 5,000 in the town) or if it would have been more of a national event instead of a local, this wouldn't have happened.

-- Marci (ajourend@libby.org), November 16, 2000.

I understand Marci. I know how they operate in those little towns. I still say they need to be taught a little about constitutional rights.

-- Shooter (jcole@apha.com), November 16, 2000.

Marci: that's the idea! National! So help spread the word! They certainly wouldn't throw millions in jail for staying home, peacefully! If they did, the truth of a Clinton dictatorship would come out-let's hope that's not true! It's win-win: either we get the respect of the government or their communism is exposed.

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), November 16, 2000.

Don't misunderstand me, as I'm certainly not against the idea, just sharing an experience with other C.S.'ers. While I don't have the answer to to what it would take, I personally think it is much to late for a day of civil disobedience to help.

-- Marci (ajourend@libby.org), November 16, 2000.

Marci: You are not misunderstood, I am just replying with the idea that many others who may have doubts are 'listening in'. For Americans, this is radical. We don't see riots in our streets or bloodshed. We are isolated from real activism: how many really cared about the LA riots?

I once babysat for a woman and her husband who were into realestate and engineering, respectavely. I never saw the husband except maybe once a month in passing by. The wife would pull in the driveway at 6pm and I would literally hide in the corner when she walked through the door. You see, this woman worked all day (she left at 6am), when she got home her son would jump up ON her, pull her briefcase open as she answered the phone while yelling 'mommy, mommy' and she locked the bedroom door so he could not interupt her(although he would pick up the other line and shout into it), and he would empty that briefcase all over the house, hit his little brother and literally climb the walls. This kid was an angel with me all day! I was instructed to feed her kids peanutbutter and jelly or balloney and cheese every day: the older one balogny, the younger PB&J, and she would order out every night. What she considered grocery shopping happened once a month when she went to Sam's club and bought PB&J and balogna and cheese. She had a closet downstairs full of it. I am not exhagerating! It is these people we need to inconvenience, to get them out of their cubicles everyday and see the rest of us: the farmers who grow their food. Please do not say it is too late for passive action like this for that would mean that the only way left is revolution, which would shed the blood of many who even now openly speak out against our government. There is talk of succession and revolution. The battle will come to our yards! It will take the lives of our men, children and elderly, if not us! We have to try! Now IS the time for massive inaction. There are militias in every state gearing up in firearms as we type. They will not give up their rights so easily. Ammunition sales have increased 900% since the media called Gore as winner of the election. His fighting the results has infurated them even more. We are "The Republic for which it(our flag) stands for", not the democracy. Democracy is just another word for socialism. Think of it this way: every time our government calls for a new 'social service', think "The Soviet SOCIALIST Republic of Russia" which was our communist enemy during the cold war.

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), November 16, 2000.

Epona, re the American flag flying below the Vietnamese flag, the Vietnamese demanded that as a condition precluding Clinton's visit there, most likely a psycological ploy in retaliation for our previous involvement there.

We would most definitely support a nationwide trucker's shut down, as Owner-Operators hard hit by the current fuel price increases, we have been trying to do this ( a nationwide shutdown) for many years, but cannot get all the truckers to agree to much of anything, but we will continue to spread the word all over the country on the CB radio, trying to change a few minds and attitudes as well. You would think this should be an easy thing to do, since the trucker's are very near their breaking point on any more crap from the Feds on the hours of service regulations, and this fuel increase without an increase in revenue has got all of us stretched monetarily, and mentally, to the edge of all out rebellion. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 16, 2000.

Epona; I read of the family you'd worked for...I see so many of youth violent,angry,lack of direction (just listen to the lyrics of their popular songs, Papa Roach for example,) and ya know....I see the chickens have definitely come home to roost!!!

-- Beth Weber (talmidim88@hotmail.com), November 17, 2000.

How about protest parades with the slogan "Walk all over this country, before this country walks all over you." or "It's your country...act like it!" Just two cents worth.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), November 18, 2000.

I feel disobedent and PROUD every time I fire up the wood stove, burn my wood, with my effort, pay no one!! Keep the ideas coming will check this thread out often. Thanks, Wayne Roach

-- Wayne & Lyn Roach (R-WAY@msn.com), November 18, 2000.

Hi Soni, there's a flag that makes that statement short and sweet "Don't Tread on Me". Actually, the symbol for the day is an upside down flag: means country in distress. No marches or protests are planned because the point is with our absense, the government and welfare recipients(not the needy, but government subsidized programs, etc.) have no one to rule over, or get money from to fund their lifestyles.

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), November 19, 2000.

Ask and you shall receive! Flyers can be found at www.sierratimes.com/truckstop2k.htm and more info at www.sierratimes.com/edjj111800.htm Let's get them out there!

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), November 19, 2000.