I am totally at a loss here. No matter how this thing turns out, I will never be able to trust the result. This recount is not even over yet and 1500 new votes have been counted-1500 errors were made. What the fuck?

How does this happen? How does something as important as a presidential election become so fraught with errors? In Pinellas County 400 ballots were not counted the first time. WHAT? How does that happen. Do you mean to tell me if there is no recount in Florida those 400 people would have been denied their voice?

What a freaking tragedy. This is a total sham. In my opinion they should hand count all those ballots-screw the machines. Our presidential election is going to come down to a matter of a 1000 or less votes. But can we trust the votes where counted correctly everyplace else? I cannot.

Yep. I am on fire.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), November 09, 2000

Answers

But can we trust the votes where counted correctly everyplace else?

It appears a bubble has been burst. Any large-scale activity humans engage in is fraught with error, isn't it? A casual look back in time will show you that elections at all levels of government have been littered with fraud and mistakes. Truth is your vote may have been lost in the shuffle. Mine too. Chalk this puppy up to "out of our control".

The question on my lips is this one: "Why should this election be different than any other?"

Nixon took his medicine back in 1960. The election result was fraudulent by many accounts. We live in a different age in some respects. The lawyers will have their say. The backroom dealers will too.

It's all a crapshoot. Or divinely ordained. Or somewhere in between.

Rich

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), November 09, 2000.

I doubt this is the first time errors occurred during a count. I bet it happens every election, it's just that this one was so close it demanded a recount, a lot of it manual. If they count them over again, I'm sure they'd come up with different numbers again......and again.....and again.

Take the human factor out of counting the votes and automate the system and the need for a recount disappears.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), November 09, 2000.

This happens because we have the Electoral College. We have a system built on outdated crapola.

We have NO STANDARDS. Errors will exist in any system, standardized or not. However, standardization will bring a much needed level of trust. It will also make "recounts" far easier and the entire process efficient. Current system is BROKE.

We have now a circus on the streets of Florida. We have a GW Bush basically saying, screw YOU the American Public we won in the face of an historic recount and charges(legal), many were denied the right to vote.

Do I love what is happening? No on many levels, but in the larger scheme this IS EXACTLY what we all need to reclaim our nation. Believe me, I am having many major belly laughs over this, SWEET Justice. I pray it remains civil and nobody is hurt which could happen the longer this CRAP goes on.

The irony is overwhelming. This is truely DIVINE intervention.

Where oh where are the two twin towers of logic Flint and Decker and their "we must accept the EC and even mere talk of repealing it is dangerous territory?" Where are these 2 hiding now? Living Document? HELL YES.

Peace

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), November 09, 2000.

Any large-scale activity humans engage in is fraught with error, isn't it?

Ironically, this is what many had been trying to explain about Y2K. Computers fail all the time, as do people. When votes are counted in the millions, it can be expected that errors could number in the hundreds. That's why the tiny vote discrepancy between the candidates in Florida's original tally resulted in an automatic recount. It should be a given that there is probably inaccuracy in the count from every state, but in most cases, it's not usually enough to swing the vote one way or the other. In this case, it was.

Incidentally, several more ballot boxes filled with write-in votes were found in counties across the state. When examined, nearly all of them read "FutureShock."

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), November 09, 2000.

This happens because we have the Electoral College. We have a system built on outdated crapola.

Gee Doc...maybe we should just get rid of the "2 senators from each state" rule while we're at it. In fact, why not just change the US from a Republic to a Democracy?

Tread carefully.

-- (@ .), November 09, 2000.

hmm

That is what I thought.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), November 09, 2000.

Well @ why don't you show us all why the EC is so great??????

Post the dam Amendment. Post links to why it exists, let us be the judge. Where is the BEEF??????????

We'll where is it?????

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), November 09, 2000.

FS, you just might get your wish...Al Gore campaign officials say Democrats are going to be asking for a hand-count of the votes in Palm Beach County and three other Florida counties.

This is at cnn.com.

-- Peg (em@i.l), November 09, 2000.

To err is human; to foul things up royally takes a computer.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), November 09, 2000.

@ you took the words right out off my keyboard.

Deano, agreed. We need a more automated way to count votes, how archaic it is! This would also reduce ways to commit fraud.

FS, my you seem very innocent here. You think it goes smoothly all the time in every county? Unfortunately I think this is more the norm than unusual.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), November 09, 2000.

Hey Doc, you keeping talking about how you get it all the time. Why don't you find out for yourself? Why don't you research the EC to discover what a republic is?

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), November 09, 2000.

Sorry, FutureShock,..I wrote in Bozo the Clown. Maybe next time?

(Did Bozo get any votes this year? He usually gets at least 200 write in's ... gotta find a list of votes that include the write ins. Would love to see if Keyes got any.)

It's obvious we'll never know who REALLy won this election, and I have finally come to the conclusion that I don't care anymore. Whoever it is, I just hope they realize half the country thinks they're an idiot. (goes both ways..) Can't we put them both in office and have them work together to come up with something everyone will like?

OF course...a revolution would be fun too...

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), November 09, 2000.

Doc:

I've read pros and cons of the Electoral College system, and I've decided it's better than a direct vote. The main reason for my decision is that it DOES do a better job at giving small states representation that would be lacking in a direct vote.

I think we need improvements across the board in how the polling process takes place, however. Quality control is a BIG factor, as it's been learned that some ballots didn't even have the presidential candidates listed. There should be ONE ballot that's standard, and there should be one METHOD [as in giving a month in which to vote rather than one day between certain hours.] In this way, lines wouldn't be 3-hours long, people who find themselves requiring signature verification at other locations could be accommodated, and there wouldn't be a need for great numbers uldpollsters to accommodate the crowds. I like the machine method, but the machines need to be verified to ensure that they punch the correct hole. No one in IT would put a machine into production without running multiple test runs. The results should be verified multiple times [as in enough times to verify that the results don't vary.]

I doubt that there's an American that isn't looking to this election and wondering whether THEIR vote counted, and how many [if any] of their past votes counted. WTF is an understatement.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), November 09, 2000.

Anita, Punch Cards! Last century's technology (like 1950's). Colorado put in touch screen displays, large enough for the elderly to see.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), November 09, 2000.

Maria:

I understand what you're saying, but if you look at the recounting, they're still using punched cards in Florida. My point was that I think machines SHOULD be used. I wouldn't want to have to go back to writing in X's, or even names. Of course, the way my mouse is reacting today, it might not be a bad idea....just kidding.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), November 09, 2000.

It's interesting that no one is proposing that whoever gets the majority of states should win. That way the small states count as much as the large ones. If it becomes just a popular vote then CA, NY, FL and a few others rule the country.

By the way Doc, don't you live in Navada? That is a "small state" population wise.

-- The Engineer (spcengineer@yahoo.com), November 09, 2000.

Democrats To Demand Recount by Hand

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20001109/el/eln_election_rdp_83.html

-- (new@news.now), November 09, 2000.

To: Those who wish to abolish the Electoral College and substitute direct popular vote for President/Vice President --

Do you also want to change the rule for determining the winner of baseball's World Series from best-of-7-games winner to highest-total-runs-per-7-games?

If total runs had been the standard by which World Series winners were determined, some past years would have seen a different team win than actually did.

See "Math Against Tyranny" at http://www.avagara.com/e_c/reference/00012001.htm

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), November 09, 2000.

Maria:

They may have that technology in parts of Denver, the Springs and Boulder, but in the mountains you still vote by carving notches in a stick.

Best wishes,,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), November 09, 2000.

So let's see--we need a modern voting technology that--

1)- is clear and simple to use

2)- prevents unqualified people from voting (dead people, non-citizens, felons, etc)

3)- prevents qualified from voting more than once

4)- is tamper proof, hacker proof, fraud proof

5)- allows people to vote from home at their convenience

6)- simultaneously reports and totals all votes electronically. (ie, no exit interviews)

7)- doesn't cost more than the present system

Can this be done? With today's microprocessor technology, S/W encryption techniques, personal ID technology and satellites I bet we are close. Let's at least give it some thought.

But would we do this if we could do this? There are many that would oppose it; they like their little corruptions.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), November 10, 2000.

Z, sounds good! No way to "ballot stuff" that system :)

Anita, I would never recommend "to have to go back" to any out-dated system. You know we even have voice technology. We could develop a system which speaks the names to the voter and the voter replies his entry. Cool huh! It could all be done by phone! No one would need to travel to any place. People could vote in bad weather. (oops that would mean more democraps would vote - uh we really don't want that! :) We are so far ahead of these punch cards I shake my head.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), November 10, 2000.