722 is passing -- 745 is failing

greenspun.com : LUSENET : I-695 Thirty Dollar License Tab Initiative : One Thread

Looks like 722 is passing, for whatever that's worth. Expect lawsuits by the end of the week, and an injunction soon after. It's never going to be implemented.

745 is going down.

Eyman's on KIRO right now talking about how there is going to be an initiative on this fall's ballot regarding voter approval of tax increases. He didn't actually read the court decision throwing out 695, did he? You can't do that without a constitutional amendment. Anybody that can read knows this.

Why waste the public's time, $, and energy on an initiative that will never withstand a legal challenge?

-- BB (bbquax@hotmail.com), November 07, 2000

Answers

I told you so, BB. A landslide victory for the voters of our state. This sends a clear message: Give us our refund and keep your grubby hands off our wallets. The people have spoken. End of Discussion.

-- Rolex Hoffmann (rolex@innw.net), November 08, 2000.

>>I told you so, BB. A landslide victory for the voters of our state.<<

Actually, if you'll take your head out of la la land, you'll see that I said that I thought 722 had a pretty good chance of passing.

>>This sends a clear message: Give us our refund and keep your grubby hands off our wallets.<<

The only message being sent is that Tim Eyman & Co. still don't know how to write constitutional legislation. 722 is a dead lock to be thrown out by the courts. If you want to send a message, I suggest you contact your elected officials, instead of holding out hope that you'll get anything from 722.

Because here's a news flash: with 732 and 728 passing, and the continuing impacts of 695, the state legislature isn't going to be able to offer property tax relief along the same lines of 722. This is the problem with government by initiative: it's mandating major changes in the way the state spends its money, while at the same time attempting to reduce the amount of money the state collects. In the future, these conflicting initiatives will make a mess of the state's budget, because you can't spend more money on education when you're reducing the amount of money coming into the state through taxes.

-- BB (bbquax@hotmail.com), November 08, 2000.


Not only that BB, but the legislature probably doesn't have the authority to roll back those local tax and fee increases. Plus, they can't implement the 2% property tax lid without a constitutional amendment. That takes a 2/3 vote of both chambers. Latest poll results show the House going Democrat and the Senate remaining Democrat by one seat.

I-722 WILL NOT be implemented in any form.

-- Informed Citizen (ic@ic.com), November 08, 2000.


I believe I did contact my elected reps....in the only way a republican in a democrat district can be heard. I hope my reps got my message loud and clear, and I didn't get a form letter or pooh poohed. If they didn't, there is always the next election...

-- no chance (kingoffools_99@yahoo.com), November 08, 2000.

Olympia will just have to tighten its belt and become more efficient. Eyeman will learn to write an air-tight initiative by next year. Our legislators know this. They also know that their electorate will vote overwhelmingly for it. Let the Supreme Court throw it out. So What... I hope Olympia passes a bunch of new taxes in the coming year. It will make people so mad, they will vote for any kind of relief. The will of the people has been heard: NO NEW TAXES! We have won. Deal With It......

-- Rolex Hoffmann (rolex@innw.net), November 08, 2000.


Rolex,

I gotta hand it to you. You were right. Washington voters have overwhelmingly supported I-722. If they get ignored, beware Nov. 2001!

I guess the voters also felt transit had taken enough of a hit with the MVET losses. I hope people now get out there and ride the mass transit we are paying for, I hate wasting money!

BB and IC may be suprised about the message electeds get. I seriously doubt that all they will believe, is that Tim Eyman can't write a constitutioanlly sound initiative. It is obviously clear that twice now, people have said they want less taxes and more control. Loud and clear. Constitional or not, the Legislature will look for ways to diffuse voter wrath and give us some of what we want.

I also believe with the passage of 732 and 728, elected officials are being told that it's time to fix the educational system.

Can they do both and fix some transportation problems? I bet they will at least try! Look for more interest in privatizing, and higher "user fees". No one ever promised legislators their jobs would be easy.

One final thought, this has been the most fascinating election year I have ever seen! I am too centrist (a bit to the right of) to feel any loss here. With record participation by voters in so many places, I think we are all winners!

-- Marsha (acorn_nut@msn.com), November 08, 2000.


>>It is obviously clear that twice now, people have said they want less taxes and more control. Loud and clear.<<

Is it that loud and clear? Last night two education initiatives passed that will require dramatic increases in spending, and one passed that would require dramatic decreases in taxation. Combine that with the decrease in taxation required by 695, and you have a message that doesn't compute.

Either we cut taxes via 695 and 722 and don't spend more on education, or we spend more on education via 728 and 732 and don't cut taxes.

This is the problem with government by initiative: the legislature is forced to deal with the consequences of these competing priorities, while the initiative process is not. Hence we end up with conflicting messages that don't allow any constructive solution.

>>Constitional or not, the Legislature will look for ways to diffuse voter wrath and give us some of what we want.<<

You are going to be disappointed. With the demand for more education spending, as well as more transportation spending, and the Democratic takeover of Olympia, there is not going to be any reduction in taxes coming out of Olympia any time soon. The legislature also knows that people probably don't really want to decimate their local governments, as 722 would do, so I wouldn't get your hopes up.

-- BB (bbquax@hotmail.com), November 08, 2000.


Who will be disappointed? Not me. Reference the $30 tabs BB. I bet that one really got to you!

-- Marsha (acorn_nut@msn.com), November 08, 2000.

problems with initiatives....? but this is what the legislative and judical branchs wanted. They made it oh so clear, that this is the only form they will accept. You can't have it both ways, were told time and again to write and init. if we want change because we all want to be constitutional........well....what did you expect..

-- no chance (kingoffools_99@yahoo.com), November 08, 2000.

>>Who will be disappointed? Not me. Reference the $30 tabs BB. I bet that one really got to you!<<

It annoys me that a number of road projects that would have reduced congestion where I live are now not going to happen as a result of $30 tabs, yes.

>>problems with initiatives....? but this is what the legislative and judical branchs wanted. They made it oh so clear, that this is the only form they will accept. You can't have it both ways, were told time and again to write and init. if we want change because we all want to be constitutional........well....what did you expect..<<

What are you talking about?

The education initiatives are probably constitutional, but bad policy. 722 is unconstitutional and bad policy.

The education initiatives are examples of legislation written by people who know what they're doing. It's why they'll probably withstand legal challenges (if there are any) while 722 won't.

-- BB (bbquax@hotmail.com), November 08, 2000.



"It annoys me that a number of road projects that would have reduced congestion where I live are now not going to happen as a result of $30 tabs, yes."

I certainly hope you are doing your liberal duty and ridesharing or using mass transit!

-- Marsha (acorn_nut@msn.com), November 08, 2000.


what am I talking about..

for weeks we have had this little debate going about whether all these initiatives might be kind of heavy handed, tieing the hands of the legislatures, making grand decisions that have to be lived with and paid for. After I-695 was defeated, many some seem to think that this flood of initiatives was undercutting the representative form of goverment we know enjoy.

My statement spoke to the fact that with I-695 "we" tried to set it up so that we would be able to have a "small effect" voice. But as everyone knows it was not to be.

In a nut shell, the powers that be had the oportunity to give the voter a smaller voice with less consequences. They decided, whether they meant to or not, that they perfered the initiatives.

clear.

-- no chance (kingoffools_99@yahoo.com), November 08, 2000.


Marsha:

>>I certainly hope you are doing your liberal duty and ridesharing or using mass transit!<<

Why do you assume I'm liberal?

I use the bus when I can, which isn't often. That's why it's all the more annoying that the road construction projects I mentioned won't get done.

Unlike many lazy people where I live, I also try to walk the half- mile or so to downtown, rather than driving and watching myself get fatter by the minute.

Rolex:

>>what am I talking about.. for weeks we have had this little debate going about whether all these initiatives might be kind of heavy handed, tieing the hands of the legislatures, making grand decisions that have to be lived with and paid for.<<

I don't think there's any debate; all these initiatives are doing exactly what you described above.

I don't understand how anybody can argue that the people of this state sent a message that they want lower taxes, because last night they approved two initiatives that will probably lead to higher taxes. Alternatively, I don't think that you can say that they wanted higher taxes, because they voted for an initiative that lowered their taxes. Frankly, I think that people just want government to do more, but don't want to pay for it.

Or maybe we all really don't know what the hell we're doing.

No wonder direct democracy doesn't work.

>>After I-695 was defeated, many some seem to think that this flood of initiatives was undercutting the representative form of goverment we know enjoy.<<

Undercutting may be a bit of a strong word, but making life increasingly more difficult would probably be an accurate description.

The irony is that the same legislature that everybody seems to be criticizing for not doing anything right is having all sorts of constraints put on it to make its job even more difficult than it is now. Seems like voting the people out that you don't like would have been a much easier solution, but I guess that's just me.

-- BB (bbquax@hotmail.com), November 08, 2000.


Well, let me put this in perspective , BB. After 695 was passed and before it went into effect, local governments in washington state, raised taxes on our residents to the tune of 164 million dollars. These are Olympia's estimates, not mine. The voters mandated no new taxes without a vote and local governments circumvented 695, to the tune of 164,000,000$. The message of no new taxes was clear to the local governments and still they screwed us. We have not forgotten this small oversight of their incredible arrogance towards us. This is why these initiatives will pass with a landslide. Maybe, just maybe, they will get the message- KEEP YOUR GRUBBY HANDS OFF OUR WALLETS!...

-- Rolex Hoffmann (rolex@innw.net), November 08, 2000.

BB,

Ah ha! I knew you had an axe to grind! I ride the bus "when I can is a cop out."

Rolex,

With the evidence of passage of the education initiatives, you may want to re-examine your position on I-722. Has it occured to you that voters would likely to approve many, (maybe even most) spending measures? In a booming economy, they could go too far and it would be worse than it is now. If you are hoping it would lead to lower taxation, that may be a mistaken assumption.

None of the dialog that I have seen on this topic has been thorough enough. Before this goes on another year, it's time to get serious. Everyone thinks it's a great idea, power to the people and all... but not enough people are asking "what ifs". So now I am asking, what if it actually causes a steep increase?

-- Marsha (acorn_nut@msn.com), November 08, 2000.



Marsha, as usual, you logic is flawless. The initiatives can be a double edged sword. Let me answer you question this way: I live in a small town in eastern washington. There is no growth, no booming economy, and our region is actually losing people. Our city council last year in December, jacked all our taxes to circumvent 695. This year, they put on the November ballot, a tax increase to make up for the loss of the Mvet funds. Our city really needs the money. Guess what the vote for and against was? The tax increase lost by a 81% to 19% margin. The people here are up to their limit in paying taxes for no services. Since there is no industry or fertile tax base the local government can tax, they have decided to jack us up year after year, with no appreciable, visible proof, that they are using the money wisely. I think this is happening all over our great state. I would pay more taxes and vote for them, if I was shown (in black and white), that the money was really needed. I am still waiting to be shown and have my Veto pen handy next to my ballot. An Excellent question, nontheless. Bravo!

-- Rolex Hoffmann (rolex@innw.net), November 09, 2000.

to BB: You write: "It annoys me that a number of road projects that would have reduced congestion where I live are now not going to happen as a result of $30 tabs, yes."

I'm sorry to hear that. My community is having a new bridge built across the Tacoma Narrows, and the project's viability is completely unaffected by the lower tabs.

Furthermore, the people in the Sound Transit district are having a light rail project built. And that is unaffected by the rest of the state paying lower tabs.

Seems to me you have a couple of options. One, you can collect signatures to get an initiative on the ballot to raise the taxes (like Sound Transit; you can call it "BB Transit") in YOUR (not MINE) community to fund the transportation projects YOUR community needs. Or, you could ask the DOT to gerrymander a vote, forcing YOUR community to pay for roads that are currently free. And, in return, the DOT will build toll roads for YOUR community.

-- Matthew M. Warren (mattinsky@msn.com), November 09, 2000.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ