Gore pledges to fight Boy Scouts; BSA to accept gay leaders if he is elected.

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Gore pledges to fight Boy Scouts

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), November 07, 2000

Answers

I'm a Gore guy

-- (ScoutmasteBob@NAMBSALA..com), November 07, 2000.

I work with a water well drilling equipment manufacturer. A driller called me this morning, mentioned the election and that he hopes Bush gets elected. He immediately started talking about fags as Boy Scout leaders. WTF? About how the Boy Scouts should be protected from gays. WTF?

As if gays are inherently child molesters or something.

I said "is there causation (thank you Brian) with being gay and being a child molester?" After a silent pause followed by mumbling, he changed the subject to the matter at hand - drilling tools.

I quoted this guy such an inflated price on our tools that he would be an utter fool to do business with us. F*uck him and F*ck his ignorance. Take your business elsewhere, butthole.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), November 07, 2000.


BTW, I appreciate the guys honesty. I do like to know who and what I'm dealing with. What shocked me is that I had never spoken with him before and he just blurted out his fixation on fags in the Boy Scouts.

And no, I have no intent to debate the issue of gays in the Boy Scouts.

Pssssssssssssssssst

(New, improved Troll Begone. CFC-free: Now safer for the environment and you!)

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), November 07, 2000.


Oh c'mon Binko, lets go a round or two!

I think that if they do not want to have gays they should not be forced to have gays. I don't think that the NAACP should be forced to have white members, nor the KKK black members, nor should the NOW be forced to have male members.

C'mon, c'mon, put up yer dukes!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 07, 2000.


Hmmmm....now that I see it in writing, maybe a male member or two is just what the NOW needs!

Ba-dump-bump!

I got a million of 'em. Yuck yuck yuck.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 07, 2000.



Bingo, want me to come over and tell your kids about my sexual practices? Of course not. I'm sure you would assert your rights if I insisted. That is, the ones that you have so far.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), November 07, 2000.

Bingo said,

I said "is there causation (thank you Brian) with being gay and being a child molester?"

Not that's been proven, but that doesn't mean that one doesn't exist either, it just means it hasn't yet been proven in a study.

A more practical consideration should be would you want someone that you don't trust around your children "supervising" them in the wilderness? My answer would be "NO", and thankfully, so is that of the Boy Scouts.

Do what you want on your own time, but stay away from my kids,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 07, 2000.


Uncle,

We already have some very butch members.

-- (JanetReno@NOW.now), November 07, 2000.


Oh Frank, what crap.

That is like saying that we have yet to PROVE that all heterosexuals are predisposed to molest children of the opposite sex, but in the meanwhile I don't trust them. Total horseshit.

The crux of the BSA suit was that they did not want ADMITTED homosexuals as Scout Leaders. They felt it was a bit much to have ADMITTED Scout Leaders explaining about why they are 'married' to another guy instead of a woman. I think it is a bit silly, but I completely support their right to free association, which includes the right to not associate with some people.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 07, 2000.


Do what you want on your own time, but stay away from my kids,

Frank

Now I am gonna jump in here. Give me a break Frank.

Sad, real sad. Another myth...gays are natural born child molesters.

When in fact, the best freaks are the ones AROUND your children already, perhaps even in your family, if not a part of.

Been there, KNOW that.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), November 07, 2000.



Unk,

It's your right to call whatever you want to "crap", but that won't make what YOU say correct.

I'd agree with:

The crux of the BSA suit was that they did not want ADMITTED homosexuals as Scout Leaders.

But do you really think that this

They felt it was a bit much to have ADMITTED Scout Leaders explaining about why they are 'married' to another guy instead of a woman.

is the reason they don't want Homosexuals as scoutmasters? Please.

Vote for Bush,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 07, 2000.


OK Frank,

If evidence, proof, or the lack thereof, is to be believed, I don't think I would ever let a child of mine be an alter-boy in a Catholic church. In fact, it would be downright DANGEROUS to let a young boy EVER be alone with a priest at ANY time! Oh sure, it has yet to be proven that ALL priests are child molesters, but in the meanwhile, pray anyway you want, but keep your priests AWAY from my kids!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 07, 2000.


Bingo, Uncle Deedah, and Frank,

I think that you are all missing the obvious point here.

Letting a gay man take young boys on an overnight camping trip is exactly the same as letting a heterosexual man take young girls on an overnight camping trip.

Neither is appropriate.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), November 07, 2000.

Catholic priests are dying of Aids

-- Peg (em@i.l), November 07, 2000.

No cigar Unk,

This issue has been studied EXTENSIVELY, and it was found that there was no higher rate of molestations by Catholic priests than by any other "religious leaders".

Personally, I think ANY child molestor should be shot, but you can't hang "molester" as a handle on Catholic priests, all you can say is that that is Catholic episodes are what the press reports on.

But then with your kids, if you were considering sending them out with a group of Catholics, and don't want to, don't.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 07, 2000.



J,

I think you missed my point. I have zero problem with the BSA choosing who they want as scout leaders. What I have trouble with is Franks subtle (OK, not so subtle) suggestion that ALL homos are child molesters, it just hasn't been PROVEN yet.

Frank,

Personally, I think ANY child molestor should be shot, but you can't hang "molester" as a handle on Catholic priests (or gays) , all you can say is that that is Catholic(or gay) episodes are what the press reports on.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 07, 2000.


And now you see why I have no interest in debating the issue regarding the Boy Scouts. I haven't stated my opinion, so any of you who have assumed I lean one way or another on this issue is hallucinating.

Frank is seemingly ALWAYS at the ready to dish up personal philosophies which send me screaming off threads. I do appreciate the fact that Frank shares what is in his mind and heart. I would prefer to know of whom I should steer clear. Thank you once again, Frank.

I posted the story about the driller and I because it had JUST occured. I posted my reaction to the guy talking about FAGS because I very well could be one for all he knew. This, IMO, points out the IGNORANCE of some people, or their guts to offer up potentially offensive opinions on topics irrelevant to the conversation at hand unsolicited. Take your pick.

My voice is not stereotypically gay, so I guess the driller assumed he could slur gays in BUSINESS conversation with me. That's IGNORANT. And not a way to do business. Not with me, anyway.

When I lived in NC I routinely faced whites slurring blacks in my presence. I'm white. This type of talk sickened me and I stated this - EXCEPT when my safety was in question due to numbers or my inability to get out of the immediate environment without significant physical confrontation. In which case I'd nod my head and manuever my way to safety before my temper got the best of me.

Same shit, different day.

Rich

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), November 08, 2000.


I posted the story about the driller and I because it had JUST occured. I posted my reaction to the guy talking about FAGS because I very well could be one for all he knew. This, IMO, points out the IGNORANCE of some people, or their guts to offer up potentially offensive opinions on topics irrelevant to the conversation at hand unsolicited. Take your pick.

My voice is not stereotypically gay, so I guess the driller assumed he could slur gays in BUSINESS conversation with me. That's IGNORANT. And not a way to do business. Not with me, anyway.

^^^Bingo:

Very nicely put, thanks, from the heart.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), November 08, 2000.


Bingo,

Who you do business with is up to you. However, if your goal ever becomes trying to *change the opinions* of people you consider "ignorant", slamming the door on their face probably isn't the best way to go about it.

Unk,

I was in no way suggesting that all homosexuals are child molestors. I am concerned however that a subset of the homosexual population who MAY BE inclined to be child molestors would also be inclined to try and insert themselves into a postition of authority over youth such as a Boy Scout leader. IMO, it's not worth finding out whether or not my personal bias in this regard is incorrect.

Erring on the side of caution, and acting upon it when possible,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 08, 2000.


OK, Frank, taking your "logic", what do you do about the "...subset of the [heterosexual] population who MAY BE inclined to be child molestors [who] would also be inclined to try and insert themselves into a postition of authority over youth such as a Boy [or Girl] Scout leader [or teacher or bus driver or school counselor or next door neighbor...]..."?

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), November 08, 2000.


To finish the point.....

Are you just going to shelter your kids from virtually EVERYONE? Because virtually EVERYONE has the POTENTIAL to be child molestors, you know.

Just as virtually EVERYONE has the POTENTIAL to be murderers and rapists and astronauts and Presidents and .....

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), November 08, 2000.


Back to the topic... Gore can't do squat unless he gets his way with the Supreme Court and indirectly changes that outcome.

He stated, "But I oppose discrimination. And the court did not reach the underlying question that others have raised there." Well, reality check, discrimination is everywhere, some for a reason. We discriminate against criminals; those with a child molestation record are made public. Hopefully, schools don't hire these criminals.

J, valid point. Men would never be allowed in the Girl Scouts... But women reporters have made it into the men's locker room.

Fact: BSA can allow any they choose into their little club. Clubs by their nature discriminate. It comes with freedom. Just another of stupid Gore's proposals. (hey, Patricia, I didn't use the C word in my post!)

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), November 08, 2000.


Patricia,

Not to cut Frank off, but to answer your question of how to shelter my children from the "subset of the heterosexual population who MAY BE inclined to be child molesters [who] would also be inclined to try and insert themselves into a position of authority over youth such as a Boy [or Girl] Scout leader [or teacher or bus driver or school counselor or next door neighbor...]..."?

I would not let my daughters go on overnight camping trips with heterosexual men as chaperones any more than I would let my sons go on overnight camping trips with homosexual men as chaperones.

Doesn't that make sense?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), November 08, 2000.

My life's work is not about changing people's opinions. Nor is it a hobby. I'm pompous at times, but not so blind as to think I know universal secrets which MUST be disseminated to the masses. I have principles which apply to ME. I respect the right each of us has to form principles & opinions and hold onto them with iron grip, or lightly craddled in hand.

I value experience deeply. Coupled with introspective thought, experience is my guiding light.

I use discrimination in my relationships. I will not do business with an ignorant individual such as the aforementioned driller. My supervisor can fire me and I'll accept his decision with grace. Been there, done that.

See, we are a manufacturer. Every customer who uses our equipment becomes a de facto representative of our company. I don't look to sort out MY kind of driller from the many I speak with each day. There exists no list of questions from which an ethical evaluation is to be performed. But if a driller is going to wear his bigotry on his chest for all to see, then he is ripe to be plucked and tossed onto the waste heap. I don't want him representing my company in the field.

Call it slamming the door if you wish, Frank. I call it discrimintation. That's why, after reading your posts for these many months, I do not engage you in debate. Discrimination.

Rich

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), November 08, 2000.


Uh, Bingo 1,

You are currently engaging Frank in debate. : )

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), November 08, 2000.

We could do worse-------

THE BOY SCOUT LAW

TRUSTWORTHY. A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.

LOYAL. A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation.

HELPFUL. A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward.

FRIENDLY. A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.

COURTEOUS. A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.

KIND. A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason.

OBEDIENT. A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.

CHEERFUL. A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.

THRIFTY. A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.

BRAVE. A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him.

CLEAN. A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.

REVERENT. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

SCOUT OATH OR PROMISE

On my honor I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country

and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong,

mentally awake, and morally straight.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), November 08, 2000.


Patricia,

Believe me, I understand that I can't shelter my children from everyone, and to be honest, I don't think that would be a healthy thing to do even if you could. I would say though that as a parent one has both the right and responsibility to protect one's children from what they deem to be harmful influences, such as keeping them away from gangs, drug use, and homosexual scoutmasters on camping trips.

Personally, I think that drawing that line is nowhere NEAR the value judgement involved if you're asserting, "you can't protect your kids from everything, so you SHOULDN'T TRY and protect them from things you're worried about." Not to put words in your mouth, but that's how I interpretted what you were saying, and believe me that's a position I'd disagree with!

Bingo, you said,

Call it slamming the door if you wish, Frank. I call it discrimintation. That's why, after reading your posts for these many months, I do not engage you in debate. Discrimination.

Fine by me, again, to the same extent that you have the right to determine for your employer who he should sell drills to, I have the right to discriminate on the part of the Scouts who should be Scoutmasters.

J,

I agree, my daughter's in Girl Scouts, and I wouldn't want a male leader there on overnight trips either. It's not my idea of the values Scouting was meant to instill.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 08, 2000.


Webster's: a contention by words or arguments: as a : the formal discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules of parliamentary procedure b : a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides

Uh, actually Y I'm offering explanations and opinions, NOT debating a particular proposition with the goal of winning. You wish to call it debate, so be it. Enjoy.

Rich

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), November 08, 2000.


Just thinking that Patricia had a good idear on a previous thread ;-)

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 10, 2000.


Frank, it took me a bit to figure out what "good idear" I had (sometimes they are few and far between, so I kind of like to know about them).

Duh.

I had a response all written up to you and J.....then got busy at work, lost it when my system crashed (again!), and lost my train of thought (derailed when they gave me a $3 million project to coordinate).

Suffice it to say that I disagree with you both on many points -- as I'm sure you both disagree with me on many points :-) Seems to me you are both judging an entire group of people based on ..... nothing. I'll bet you can find statistics that show heterosexuals are more likely to be child molesters than homosexuals. I know from experience that heterosexuals (mostly men, but there are some women) who are more than happy to tell you every freaking detail of their sexual experiences, sexual fantasies, etc. -- EVERY CHANCE THEY GET -- without regard for whoever might be in ear shot (I've actually heard guys say, "Hey, they gotta learn sometime!" as if this was something to be PROUD of). I have yet to meet a homosexual who does that.

Yes, those are my experiences, but I doubt I'm alone.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), November 10, 2000.


Lars,

Thankyou for posting the Scout law. It reminded me of why I didn.t become a scout leader.

THE BOY SCOUT LAW

TRUSTWORTHY. A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him....

Snip

REVERENT. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

20 years ago, the scout group in the small town where I lived was without a Scout Leader. As I had been a Scout when I was younger, and I was involved in another youth group at the time, I was approached and asked to become the local Scout leader. I agreed and duly filled in the apropriate forms, and sent them off to the National Scout Headquaters. I received a letter back saying that as I had put my rligion down as Agnostic, I was not acceptable. Bu if I wished to change my religious declaration to one of the accepted group then I would be accepted.

I could not believe that the Scouting heirarchy would deliberate ask me to lie in order to become a Scout leader. I didn't become a Scout leader, and the scout troop in that town folded.

Surely if someone is Gay, and they admit it, hten they are following the very first Scout Law and are being honest.

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), November 10, 2000.


Malcom--

I thought it would be of interest to post the Scout Law and Scout Oath.

I agree that no one should have to lie to become a Scoutmaster but I also think that private groups should be free to define their own membership.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), November 10, 2000.


Lars, I don't think anyone's taking issue with a private organization excluding certain people (e.g., men's clubs, women's clubs, etc.).

But the fact that Malcolm's experience indicates the Scout heirarchy actually told him he could lie in order to become a Scoutmaster flies directly in the face of the Scouts' law.

Kind of hypocritical (not you -- the Scout heirarchy). I'm not surprised.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), November 11, 2000.


The ability to spell prior to being fully caffeinated .....

Uh, that should read hierarchy -- twice.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), November 11, 2000.


I have trouble with e's and i's too but isn't it spelled "higherarky? Dang that fonix anyhow.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), November 11, 2000.

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