Last night, we had several guests who were vegans. They brought their own food, their own utensils and their own plates on which to eat. That's totally fine with me -- I admire people who have convictions and stick with them. It wasn't so fine when they started taking digs at people for drinking non-vegetarian beer (and haranguing me because my kitty's litter crystals aren't biodegradable), but whatever.

Are you a vegetarian or a vegan? How long have you abstained from meat/animal products? I'm totally undisciplined and wouldn't be able to be a vegan (no dairy? No marshmallows? No Jackie.), but admire people who can stick with such a strict regime. If you're a vegetarian or vegan, has it been difficult for you to stick to at times? One of Ian's friends was saying that, to her, drinking non-vegetarian wine would be like drinking wine that had even a trace amount of raw sewage in it...which I guess makes sense.

Anyway, I'm just curious about what it really takes to stick to this way of life.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

Answers

Well Jackie, after reading your post about the guests you had, kookie, rude, unrealistic and obnoxious are three qualities that come to my mind. I'm positive all vegetarians don't behave this way.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

I guess I'm what's called an ovo-lacto vegetarian. That means I eat eggs and dairy. But I also eat any kind of seafood. I don't eat beef, pork, buffalo, etc., or chicken, turkey, etc.. It was about four years ago that I cut out red meat, then about three years ago I stopped eating poultry. I'm not real picky about checking labels for even a trace of any animal products. I know a vegan who won't even eat Chinese vegetable dishes because they are often sauteed in chicken broth. I am nowhere near that extreme, not even close.

There's no way I could make further reductions, even if I wanted to. That would just be way too restrictive for me. It's not been hard to do, avoiding all those meat products. Once I decided to do it, it was pretty easy. I also believe it's easier now than ever to be a vegetarian or a vegan, even partly.

My wife claims she's never missed meat, but I have. I love Chik-Fil-A sandwiches. I love bacon. At first I even missed good steaks off my backyard grill. Everything else, I could live without. But these things were hard to get over. I've never slipped, though, since giving up meat, never "cheated" and snuck just that one Double Whopper with cheese meal from McDonald's. I have no desire to eat meat and I don't find it appetizing anymore.

I find it completely unacceptable when vegans start dissing non-vegans. I didn't give up meat because I'm on some crusade. I gave it up in an attempt to live cleaner. I feel better and I've been healthier since making this switch. I'm glad I did it, and I did it for me, not to save the planet from deforestation and not to save a bunch of animals (although both things would be great, because I'm all for the planet and animals). When I used to eat meat, I really enjoyed it. It was just a personal decision for me. I even worry less about food contaminations. I realize I'm not immune from still being affected by these things, but I've significantly reduced my risk.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

I was right, huh? (And that was four things, not three, but who's counting.) Paul's right on. I'm a non-smoker now, but I have ashtrays everywhere in my home for my guests who smoke and I still have free cigars and lots of ashtrays in the office. I'd still be smoking if I didn't have emphysema from smoking since I was 14 or so. But I'm not a "reformed whore" and I don't like those that are. This falls under my dislike of hyphenated Americans. When people wear their hyphenated status on their sleeve...they have an agenda involving control of others. Otherwise, like Paul, they'd be content with controlling themselves.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

Bubba, how is recognition of one's heritage an attempt to be controlling? 'I'm Polish-American...Now gimme your power.' Er, what? That makes no sense.

Well Jackie, after reading your post about the guests you had, kookie, rude, unrealistic and obnoxious are three qualities that come to my mind. I'm positive all vegetarians don't behave this way.

They were vegans, not vegetarians. I don't know why you think they're 'unrealistic,' since they've been living life exactly the way they think they should for years, now. For them it's a very realistic way of life. I wasn't so thrilled with their comments to people who were drinking non-vegan beer, but I'm actually pretty tolerant of evangelising from people, be they vegans, vegetarians, Christians or right-wing gun nuts. If the worst thing you do to me is expose me to your way of thinking for a little while, then I'm not doing too bad.

I was a vegetarian for about four months a couple of years ago, but that ended when I realised that McDonald's hamburgers in the UK are exactly like the ones from home. Now I try to eat a lot of protein, and I can only take so much tofu, so I do eat meat. Plus...I have no willpower. I'm curious as to whether one really needs to believe passionately that eating meat or other animal products is dead wrong in order to carry through with that way of life.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

Well, I think accepting an invitation to someone's home and then bringing your own food AND PLATES, ETC is unrealistic behavior (and I also think it's rude)as in un-real. And recognizing your own ethnic background is fine, everyone does, but I think it can be a divisive factor when you wear it on your sleeve and imagine slights at every turn. But that's just been my experience; nothing I say is graven in stone. It's an opinion based on personal observation.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

Bubba, the reason they bring their own food, plates and utensils is because they don't want to risk consuming animal products, so strong is their conviction that it is wrong to do so. I mean, I would bring my own food, plates and utensils if I was going to someone's house where raw sewage was prepared and consumed; I feel pretty strongly that I don't want to take a chance on eating raw sewage, even in trace amounts.

Saying it's rude and unrealistic of them is like saying that people who keep strict kosher are rude and unrealistic. They have the courage of their convictions, plain and simple. I'm certainly not offended because they don't eat animal products -- why should I be? And as for 'unrealistic'...well, they're doing just fine, so I don't think that's a worry.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

Meat is raw sewage. Vegetarian beer. I got it.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

Er, no, you don't. It's not worth discussing if you don't WANT to get it. I mean, I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan, but I can still understand that the idea of consuming animal products is as disgusting and wrong to them as the idea of consuming raw sewage is to me.

Now that that's been explained to you, do you still think that people who have the courage of their convictions are rude for not throwing away their ideals so as not to ruffle the feathers of their hosts?

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

Hey! Relax. I'm a diverse kinda guy. I was gonna shave my head and become a Buddhist once. I thought the robes would make it easier for me to climb into my 4-wheel SUV (It's kinda hard in tight Levis) and I'll bet you could hide a really big gun under 'em too.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

Now, everyone, let's play nice. Jackie, I gotta say that I do find it a little strange that your guests would bring their own plates to your house - as you were probably aware of their veganism, they might have mentioned that they'd prefer separate utensils etc. If it were me, I would have been taken aback (the implication being that I didn't clean my dishes). It would be like having guests refuse to shake hands with you for fear you'd give them some dread disease. It is rude to come into someone's home and criticize their values/food (or, in this case, beer, wine and kitty litter). You were respectful of their avoiding animal products, they should have been satisfied with that.

My opinion out of the way - my hubby and I try to have a few meatless days out of the week, but that's as far as we've been able to take it. We totally lack enough discipline to be strict vegetarians, let alone vegans, (and like steak too much).

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

Awww, Kate. I was having fun pulling Jackie's leg and you had call a time out. I'll be good. Sorry, Jackie.

-- Anonymous, November 04, 2000

Weirdly enough, Jackie, I think it was polite of your guests to bring their own plates and utensils. Yes, it's unusual, but it's a lot more considerate than getting to your house and having them try to disinfect your plates, or making a fuss about the plates and the food that you did have. It was considerate in an unusual sort of way.

I've experienced much ruder behavior from non-vegans who tell you to your face "Hey, this food sucks" or who bring their own food to a dinner party just in case they don't like yours.

Honestly, the focus of a dinner party should not be the food but the conversation ... if someone's going to serve something you can't eat, eat beforehand and just have some dessert or wine or whatever. But I think sometimes that idea gets lost in the shuffle.

I might be able to stick to a vegetarian regime if someone else were cooking the food. I never have time to cook anything very complicated or to shop very often for fresh food.

I used to work for a woman who was a strict vegetarian and I think her secret was that she just didn't like food very much anyway.

-- Anonymous, November 05, 2000

I agree conversation is the thing. Talk to me about vegetarian beer. But first, excusing my ignorance, define non-vegetarian beer. Is this like mead or something, made with bull's blood and honey, like the Vikings used to drink? How about Bud Light? What do they do to make it non-vegetarian?

-- Anonymous, November 05, 2000

From this site, which also includes information on why some sugar, cereals and crisps/chips are also not suitable for vegans and vegetarians: Wine is clarified, or cleared, after fermentation. Some of the ingredients used include:

- edible gelatins (made from bones)
- isinglass (made from the swim bladders of fish)
- casein and potassium caseinate (milk proteins)
- animal albumin (egg albumin and dried blood powder

As for guests bringing their own plates and utensils, I am not in the slightest offended by that. They don't eat food prepared in ANY kitchen where animal products are prepared; it's not that they think I don't clean my dishes. I mean, it's like if I knew someone had been letting their dog eat off of their normal plates -- I wouldn't eat off of those plates, no matter HOW well the person may have sterilised them. The very idea would sicken me.

-- Anonymous, November 05, 2000

I am upset that you would disparage raw sewage in this manner. Indeed. James

-- Anonymous, November 05, 2000

It's a bit odd to take your own eating utensils to someone's house, but whatever floats your boat, I suppose. I have a friend (a vegetarian) who makes fun of hardcore vegans; "Did you quit meat because you love animals?", "No, I really hate vegetables..." He thinks that's hilarious. I think that in some economically struggling countries it would be very difficult to stick to these sorts of convictions. Unless these people could really trust the origins of their products- you know testing the soil for high or low chemical levels etc. One might as well grow one's own food and become a chemist.

-- Anonymous, November 05, 2000

Like Paul, I'm not vegetarian because I eat seafood. So my didactic vegetarian friends refer to me as "not vegetarian, just difficult." I thought that was pretty funny for awhile, until they started making derisive comments about me ordering swordfish when we are out together.

I never claimed to be vegetarian; I just wanted to cut out red meat, pork, lamb, etc. because I wanted to try to be healthier, and it's a unexpected bonus if it helps the planet out at all. I started abstaining from all that stuff about seven years ago. After one year of it, I had a craving for a hamburger one day. So I had one. And then I felt violently ill for the entire next day. The fear of feeling that bad again is probably what kept me from eating it again for awhile. But, now it's been so long since I've had a steak that I don't miss it or ever think "Wow, I'd really like to eat that."

For what it's worth, I admire people who follow through with their own convictions, but I have little patience with the ones who try to impose their beliefs on my diet by suggesting that becaue I eat seafood I am somehow morally repugnant.

-- Anonymous, November 05, 2000

I'm going to a churrascaria for dinner tonight...it's a Brazilian style restaraunt where the waiters bring around skewers of every kind of meat and cut you off delicious hunks...all you can eat. Mmmm, tasty meats! I'm bringing my own fork from home though.

Different strokes for different folks.

Incidentally, Paul W., I share your fondness for Chik-Fil-A sandwiches, but I only really get a craving for them on Sundays, when the darn place is closed. How do they do that?

-- Anonymous, November 05, 2000

Jackie, I checked out the links you provided, but I'm going to have to be honest and tell you that I think sweating stuff because of gelatin and bone charcoal being used in the processing strikes me as obsessive and kookie. Don't take it personal; it's a generational thing. I like the vegetarian beer thing, though. You've provided me with new comedy material to share with my beer drinking buddies. I fully understand people who are vegetarians, but this all sounds like a bit much. I mean, considering the various poisons we're exposed to everyday in the air, the water, the things we touch, etc, etc. And by the way, don't ever come to dinner at my house...we let the dogs lick our plates when we're done quite frequently. Any bug that gets past hot water and detergent can have me. (Actually, exposure to germs is good for you...builds resistance. True.) Did you know that dog saliva has antiseptic qualities? Next time you get a cut, let the dog lick it and see how much faster it heals. I'm a confirmed carnivore. I love all animals...especially the ones that taste good.

-- Anonymous, November 05, 2000

The thing is, though, that just because observing such strict controls over what you eat (and eat with) isn't right for you, doesn't mean it's 'kooky' or 'obsessive' for someone else to do so. They talk the talk and walk the walk, which is something I deeply admire.

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2000

Fruitbat, the answer is "pickle juice". They marinate their chicken in it.

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2000

bubba, I do the same thing. You know how people "clean their plates" before putting them in the dishwasher? My dog gets first crack at them. I did this once in front of a friend of mine who had come over for dinner several times. He's never eaten at my house again...

Anyway, I guess my feelings towards vegan/vegetarianism are pretty much the same as what I feel towards religious people. Go ahead and have your beliefs, practice them to your hearts content. But please remember that you should express your beliefs by example, not by haranguing. You know? If I see that you're really healthy and fit because of your diet, I'm more likely to be curious about the benefits of vegetarianism than if you just spend your time at dinner parties griping about meateaters.

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2000

I don't think I'd have a problem with someone bringing their own food or plates to my house if they explained it beforehand. I would have a problem if they then harangued me about my lifestyle choices. A friendly line or two ("so, did you know that cat litter isn't biodegradable?") is cool, but then let it go. Guests do have obligations, too. Convictions are fine, out-and-out rudeness is not. I don't think I'd be friends with someone so completely caught up in their convictions that they had no tolerance for other opinions or even feelings.

I've always wondered about the craving thing. I know I haven't smoked in fifteen years, but even now, there are a few very rare occasions when I *want* a cigarette. I won't have one, I know it'll make me puke if I even try. But I still *want* one.

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2000

I have been a vegetarian for 15+ years. I don't take too kindly to anyone questioning what I do and don't eat, so I tend to refrain from commenting on what other people choose to consume. I also don't really appreciate anyone thinking that my choices are "kooky." If I'm not hurting you, what do you care? Gelatin is not kosher or halal, does the fact that Jews and Muslims try to avoid it at all costs, make them kooky? Not in my book. My vegetarianism is a fluid thing. While I generally avoid gelatin, I will eat honey on occasion, and drink non-vegetarian wine when I feel like it. I'll wear leather shoes because I live in Canada and I can't really get away with not, though I did give it a try. I don't wear other leather clothing or carry leather bags. I don't have to answer to anyone but myself. Righteous carnivores/omnivores and righteous vegans bug me when they criticize what I do especially when I don't give a damn about they do.

As far as people with special dietary needs bringing their own food or utensils into my home, it's such a small thing, that it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2000

Opinions, per request.

Someone with a 'difficult' diet bringing their own food -- perfectly okay. Miss Manner smight disagree, but I don't see why someone who is on either a restrictive medical or restrictive self-imposed diet / regimen is wrong to bring their own food. (By 'restrictive' or 'difficult', I mean something that is sospecific or limited that it is unwise to expect other people to have the ability to cater to it.)

Someone bringing their own plates and utensils -- weird, but not outrageously weird. If they were keeping strict kosher, for instance, and were concerned about meat / milk utensils / plates coming in contact with each other, fewer people would condemn that as weird.

Someone with a 'difficult' diet taking digs at other guests? -- Completely rude. It would be rude even in their own home, but they'd at least have more right to proselytize there. To subject your guests to their agenda in your home was rude. Sorry. No nicer term for it.

Someone taking a dig at you, in your home? -- Some people like for their friends to be rude (read: blunt) with them. I like frankness, but I also like tact. But I'm not you. If you're cool with being told your way of doing things in your own house is wrong and eviol, then their behavior is okay. If you would prefer them to keep their lecturing to themselves, then it was rude. It all depends on how close they are to you, and whether your friends habitually take the mick out of you for things because you don't care.

I was a strict vegan for a while until my body reblled and all the health benefits I hoped to achieve were negated by new diet-related health problems. I tried several tactics to avoid re-introducing meat into my diet and none helped. I'm apparently one of the few people out there who can't eradicate meat protein from her diet completely. And while some people, after eliminating all animal products from their diet for a long time (some 'lose' the enzyme that helps break down meat proteins), get sick--I didn't.

Eating out was a nightmare. Buying food meant paying 5x as much at organic / health food stores and food co-ops so as to be sure that the food was indeed animal-product-free and organic. I had to take a lot of supplemnents, which were also costly. Holidays were a nightmare. I worked in restaurants and was unable to eat my meals there, so had to pack a lunch and when faced with an unscheduled double shift, I couldn't run out and grab something to eat, so I went hungry instead. I shrank to a size 3 (I am 5'9") and it hurt to lie down or sit because my boniness would cause bruises. I could rarely socialize with my friends, because 90% of the time, it would involve food I couldn't have, or alcohol, which (at the time) I didn't touch. I was scolded and lectured constantly about my dietary choices.

All the same, I did NOT go and beat people up who did not share my POV or lifestyle choices. Because, sorry, friends or not, that's just plain rude. You can respect their POV, respect their convictions and strength of will and like them as people and still dislike their behavior.

I've dated more than one vegan or vegetarian, BTW, during and after I was a vegetarian myself. We got along because I didn't make them feel like they were being picky just to be picky, and they chose not to lecture me about eating things they found unkind or disgusting. Also, I had no problem letting them veto restautrants they couldn't get a meal at, because I was easier to feed than they were.

-- Anonymous, November 06, 2000

I usually serve at least one vegitarian dish at dinner parties, and I usually make a point to mark it as such. Most vegitarians I know just appreciate the heck out of it, and say "thanks".

I don't know any vegans personally, which is lucky. It drives me nuts when people decline to eat or drink anything at my house. There is this one couple that comes over and declines all offers of food and beverage. Maybe they are vegans, and I don't know it.

That's my problem, though, so I try not to let them know that it bothers me. It's not their fault I have a "thing" about feeding people. ;-)

I imagine that they would need to warn me that they are bringing their own plates and silver and food. I think I could accept it if I had time to prepare myself mentally, and an explination that this is because of their convictions, and not some reflection on me.

Trees

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2000

ewwwww!!!11!! i cold never just eat veggies. yukorama!!!!! i once bought paper plates to some ones house. was that rude???/

-- Anonymous, November 08, 2000