I keep seeing references about something going on in Texas in connection with Joel. I haven't asked before now for fear of sounding ignorant. On the truth thread he said they are leaving. It sounds like it might be dangerous. What's going on?

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), October 25, 2000

Answers

There has been a stand off outside of Trinidad, TX, in Henderson County for several months. I believe it may have something to do with that. Check the old political postings for something to do with the Gray's. Joel is a militia leader.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), October 25, 2000.

I read something about that "standoff" awhile back in the Fort Worth paper. It's pretty much just a deal where some old guy and his family want to live and let live and not participate in the local government so the Federal government wants to kill him. I don't think he's committed any felonies but he might be wanted for some minor misdeeds by the local sheriff. Maybe a misdemeanor or something. The story said local folks as well as members of some militia-type groups are supporting the guy and his family and regularly take food and stuff by to them.It's just more of the Federal government wanting to control everybody.

-- Shooter (jcole@apha.com), October 25, 2000.

To my knowledge, the only charges left outstanding are failure to appear in court for a now dismissed charge, and a child custody deal. The mother, who is a daughter of the man who is holed up, didn't go to court to appear for the divorce proceedings, and in TX, if you don't show up, you forfeit custody of your children. She still has the children. It is debatable whether the children are even on the family farm at Trinidad, but the fed wants to go in on a child custody case anyway.

I think the main problem is the family refuses to get driver's licenses. They have had them in the past, and they were not revoked, but they refuse to get new ones and had continued to drive for a while. All that is a state matter, not a federal one, but the fed wants in on the deal anyway.

They have been getting a lot of militia support---"There will not be another Waco".

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), October 25, 2000.

I found the old posts and read about this in infowars.com today. Most of the article are from August. At that time it seemed it was a waiting game and they were under surveillance. Joel stated in the posts that they would go if the feds got involved. Is that what happened? The latest thing on infowars is that Chuck Norris visited last week and put his attorneys on the matter. What is the militias role in this? If the Grays are surrounded by feds how will they get in? If it is still just surveillance wont the militia's presence just intensify a volatile situation? I hope this all works out without any trouble.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), October 25, 2000.

It's not against the law, yet, for malitias or anyone else to go someplace the feds are watching. And yes, anywhere the feds are it's dangerous, like Waco and Ruby Ridge.

-- Shooter (jcole@apha.com), October 25, 2000.

Please remember to pray for Joel as well as everyone involved. May God's mighty hand cover and conform his people to accomplish His will and grant wisdom to all involved. God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), October 25, 2000.

yes indeed Wendy and amen!

-- Beth Weber (talmidim88@hotmail.com), October 25, 2000.

Yes, I'll be lifting them up in prayer here also.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), October 25, 2000.

We have a 'prayerboard' at work, I'll put Joel's name on it. Ada

-- Aagje Franken (Backyardy2k@aol.com), October 25, 2000.

It's not about the FEDS...

The ABC show 20/20 Downtown did a good journalistic piece covering the "Gray" matter. It's dated Sept. 25th. Check out...

http://www.abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020DOWNTOWN_000925_texasstandoff _feature.html

Or just go to www.abc.com, go to "ABC Shows" and navigate your way to 2020 Downtown.

There are two issues. Mr. Gray has been indicted for assaulting a state trooper (he bit him) after a traffic stop in which Mr. Gray was seen to be carrying an unlicensed weapon. The second issue is that Mr. Gray's son-in-law has been awarded custody of his two sons by a Texas court after divorcing his wife who remains in the compound with the children, Mr. Gray and about 2 dozen other people. The local sheriff of Trinidad County, NOT Janet Reno, NOT the ATF, NOT the FBI, is handling the matter.

Ever see one of those furious family squabbles where a do-gooder tries to intervene and both sides tell him to BUTT OUT? I really don't know what on earth Joel expects to accomplish, but I hope he took along warm winter clothing. The sheriff appears to be in no hurry. I hope Joel isn't.

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), October 26, 2000.

An unlicensed weapon!!! My God, what a criminal.

Uh, Craig, there is no such thing as a licensed weapon in Texas. I've lived here all my life. We have a "right to carry" permit in Texas, which licenses the carrier but not the weapon, butthere is no such thing as a licensed weapon.

One other note. I was a journalist for 25 years. The TV network news programs are not journalism but entertainment.

But, Craig, I get your message. You're right on most of it.

-- Shooter (jcole@apha.com), October 26, 2000.

Hi Shooter,

Thanks for the update, Shooter. Here's a direct quote from the ABC website article...

"John Joe Gray got into trouble with the law last spring, when a car he was riding in was stopped for speeding. According to the state trooper who pulled him over, Gray was carrying a pistol B illegally . BHe said, BYou got a permit?BB Gray recalls. BI said, BNo, sir, itBs my God given right to carry.BB The two men ended up in a scuffle, with Gray biting the officer. Later indicted, Gray refused to appear in court, saying that he acted in self-defense and that the entire judicial system is corrupt and conspiring against him."

So, someone has sure got it screwed up. And on a national network to boot. But, I believe the complaint against John Gray still has to do with assault, not weapons charges. Plus contempt of court for holding children against a court mandated custody order.

Not much cause for a "rally 'round the flag", unless you're into biting cops and keeping children from their father.

You're a Texan, shooter. Don't you think the best way to work it out is with a Texas style B-B-Q and hash out the details over ribs and beer?

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), October 26, 2000.

Heck yeah, barbeque and beer works every time.

You're right and I think the main thing it's all about is the child custody and the cop biting deal. And from what I read the sheriff is handeling it pretty well. But, I can't help but be on the old guy's side. I like to be left alone too.

My other point is that I just never ever trust anything those TV network news shows tell me. I remember them saying that Alar on apples would kill me and about the exploding gas tanks on pickups and numerous other reports that were supposed to save my life and they were all BS.

-- Shooter (jcole@apha.com), October 26, 2000.

It doesn't sound like the kind of problem that having more bystanders will help solve. You cannot go around assaulting cops, even if he/she IS acting like Barney Fife, prudence is the better part of valor! Make the system work for you, not against you, use your head, not your hands, etc., you get the idea. Picketting the county or statehouse steps to promote your displeasure about a matter gets better, more positive media attention than biting a cop. The current media loves "civil disobedience" in all its forms, too bad most of us have forgotten how to use it! I guess I'm truely old, I still think like I did in the '60's. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), October 26, 2000.

All right....I tried to stay out of this one, but I can't. So let's see....if I remember correctly when I read the transcripts from the 20/ 20 report the intro was INCREDIBLY slanted..."we are now going where few people would dare to go, behind the gates of a right wing extremists militia compound," Leading? Fair journalism? Overdramatic yellow slanted piece of establishment blather?

Facts. Are you all still depending on the nations network news to give you truthful reports about what is happening? Have you not learned that the only way to know anything is to go and find out for yourself? At least compare several news variations against each other. There were military PR officers in CNN headquarters telling them what they could air of the attacks on the Serbs. Is that a free press? I have been out to Trinidad and I have spoken with the townspeople and with the Gray's and the story is that these people are homesteaders who want to worship God, follow the Constitution of the United States and live on their forty seven acre homestead with two houses,(or compound if you prefer to think that John Quinones is a great purveyor of truth) and they do not wish to sell their souls to get a drivers license, as the right to travel is a guaranteed right of a free citzen, it IS NOT A PRIVELEGE. Neither is the right to keep and bear arms a privelege. They don't want pity, they don't want Social Services, they want to provide for themselves with the blessings that God sees fit to bestow upon them. Doesn't that ring true to you?

The "officials" kept Joe Gray in jail for 2 weeks without filing charges.(8th ammendment) They have not and have declined to release a video tape of the encounter and have charged him with a felony offense of assualting an officer, but they won't bother to let the evidence out in the court of public opinion. This is where the FEDS think they have grounds for action in this. They were going to raid on August 15, yes the FEDS, but the raid was stayed by a radical right wing radio show host and his listeners.

The general belief is that as soon as these nasty elections are out of the way, the raid will occur. This is why Joel is coming. This is why even more than Joel are coming.

Annie, the system???? Use it? It is broken. The courts are not Constitutional courts and haven't been for many years. If you've got a load of money you have nothing to fear. If you are mexican, black, religious, a patriot and have lint dimes in your pockets and no rolex, you may as well skip the charade and go directly to jail. The courts are a joke! Look at the Waco situation. The Feds wouldn't even give over their "evidence" to their own courts!!!! This government will not answer for it's actions.

The local sheriff isn't doing anything, well except for a little bit of spying with Covert Operations (read that Feds) cameras. He hasn't filed charges against a man that was arrested for a drive by shooting at the Gray's homestead.

Sorry, but people need to get in the way. It is far past time to just let the authorities handle this matter. It has been going on since March. They need to drop the charges and let this thing go, or bear the exposure and the responsibility of the deaths that will result. As Green said earlier on, there will not be another Waco.

The father of these two kids hasn't even just walked up to the gate like I did, and ask to see his children. If he was that concerned wouldn't he at least have the guts to go and talk to these people? He also said he spanked them when they deserved it...He said "them" and one of the children whom he hasn't seen in 18 months is only 2 years old! I don't know much, but spanking 6 month old babies is one thing that I know is wrong. This man wants "the police" to go in and get his children when he isn't even enough of a man to walk up and ask for himself.

These people, the Gray's, are not violent. They are defensive. And they have every right to be defensive. They also have the right, guaranteed, to be defended. Thank God that there are still some people in this nation who are unselfish enough to stand in the gap for people against a government and system that has grown WAY outside of it's bounds.

Psalm 91. Mathhew 24:44....these are on the gate. Along with a sign....We are Militia. Live Free or Die.

This is hitting you close to home. You might end up missing a couple of forum participants. God willing that won't happen. To those who pray, please do so fervantly.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 26, 2000.

And Craig, it isn't Trinidad County. It is Trinidad, Henderson County, Texas. I lived in Henderson County for 2 years that seemed like 50. I hate the place. The law is the absolute stereotypical example of southern law---harrassing some and letting others go. It is a place where you can be stopped for being "in the wrong neighborhood" and I am white and was driving a brand new pickup on a state highway. My former husband's friend and lawyer was the district attorney down there. He is doing time now for accepting a bribe for not filing murder charges against a man for killing his wife. The price---$50,000. Pretty cheap, huh? The reason the former DA is in prison now is because the deceased woman's family was connected well enough that they managed to get outside investigators to come in. The locals never investigated the complaints/allegations.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), October 26, 2000.

Doreen, have you heard of jury nullification? Our founding fathers ordained that jurors had the right to vote " not guilty" if a law is unjust or unjustly applied. This allows us to hold the government to the principles of the Constitution and prevent oppression. Our courts now try to systematically deny us this right, The Fully Informed Jury Association is trying to get people aware of our rights so we can change bad laws, and aquite those accused under bad/stupid laws. Most people have no idea of what Constitutional rights we DO have, the more people we can educate and inform, the more people we have to stand up for these rights and demand them. You have a hard time keeping whats yours if you didn't know it was yours to begin with! We have the power to change laws, we just don't have enough people to demand/ exercise them! Regarding driver's licenses, I hold a class A CDL (commercial driver's license) that means I'm properly qualified to drive a tractor trailer, double trailers, triple trailers, tankers, and hazardous materials down a public roadway with enough experience and knowledge to avoid killing anyone, do you really want just anyone being able to operate an 80,000 pound vehicle loaded with possibly nuclear waste or gasoline down the highway? I encounter enough under qualified drivers on our roads as it is, I would not to have to encounter even more. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), October 27, 2000.

Annie, yes, I am a supporter if FIJA. That in and of itself will get you tossed off of a jury. According to the law, the only time a person is to be licensed is when they are using the road COMMERCIALLY. If someone is unsafe then they can lose their rights. But when you give the right to travel over to a huge bureaucracy, and are required by un Constitutional laws to give your slave number, and now in Texas your digital fingerprint, and there is no redress for people who are opposed to being identified by a number, you are bound to end up with conflicts.

You and I are pretty well in agreement on most things. I respect your thoughts and like your insights on things, but this isn't a thing that picketing is going to solve. I bang off letters to my congressman, who happens to be Ron Paul, so what can I complain to him about?? He is one of a very few in our government that is actually Constitutionally correct in everything I have ever checked on. I write letters to my local weekly reader and they don't print anything that might upset anyone. There is never any redress for any local officials here. I have been to a couple of meetings for some city development committes, and county board meetings, and they are like socialist love feasts. So I have been active. I am not sitting here and complaining, and I stand on my rights all the time and have handed out many pamphlets on the only times it is legal to ask for a SS number. However, rescinding your slave number can cause quite a few problems for the person who is not completely self reliant.

The issue here is that Mr Gray was a passenger in a vehicle, was pulled over for speeding, the officer asked him if he was armed and he said yes. The officer then told him to get out of the vehicle and that he wasn't allowed to be armed!!! Know your rights; Mr Gray does. And look where it has lead.

This is serious, dead serious. This whole thing just says to me that anyone who chooses to follow the law of the land will be made an example of...Don't you guys remember all of the complaceny over the Waco incident? Then years later, we find out all of these things that were fed us over the teevee that were lies. Most of us sat on the couch and watched over 80 people be murdered in a violation of Posse Comitatus and maybe thought...that isn't quite right....but what did we do? Our government at present would just as soon murder dissentors if they can't get them to fall in line. This isn't something that beer and a barbeque will fix. Nor picketing. It's time.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 27, 2000.

i do notknow enough about this issue to make along post ,i just wish Joel the best and to his wife and kids....if you need help you know where to turn.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), October 27, 2000.

We have to fight for our rights. The system is broken and needs to be done away with and started over, using the constitution. Our constitution has been completely destroyed by federal judges and politicians who want to place the people under total control by the government.

I've carried a pistol for 30 years because I have a constitutional right to carry it. I drive the speed limit, I don't drink alcohol, I stop at all stop signs and I don't break any laws that would give a cop a reason to search me or my truck. If I need to use the pistol to defend my life or that of someone else, I've been told by policemen and I've seen it happen, that the need to defend my/a life would supercede the offense of carrying a pistol. I don't give the government any reason to harrass me, other than taxes of course, and I live my life in peace. But I will fight for my rights if I have to just like the soldiers did in WWI and WWII. I quote Edward Abbey again, "A patriot is someone who isn't afraid to fight his government for his country".

-- Shooter (jcole@apha.com), October 27, 2000.

Doreen and Shooter, I agree with you. But, Shooter, the *reason* we have corrupt judges and politicians is because WE THE PEOPLE have become corrupt. Even if we can fix the system and throw the current bad guys out, unless we correct the moral malaise, it will just happen all over again. The reason we are in this fix is because we did not take God and the Bible seriously, and if you've been reading on this forum for a while, Shooter, you will have realized that even amongst this relatively decent and well-informed group of people there are many who would fight tooth and nail to keep God and the Bible from ever being taken seriously again. They have been taught to hate what is good and right, and to love the evil. This holds true for the bulk of our society today, and I don't think it is likely to change until people have had a really good dose of the consequences of abandoning God's standards. Unfortunately, a lot of Constitutionalists seem to think that we can go back to the Constitution without going back to the Bible, but it just won't work. Even the founding fathers knew that our form of government would only work so long as the people were self-governing, that is, had the moral backbone to govern their own individual behavior without a policeman or a soldier looking over their soldier. Annie mentioned the problem of *under-qualified* drivers on the roads -- if individuals were able to do what's right without someone regulating them, we wouldn't NEED licensing to ensure the safety of others. I agree that we would be better off without all the regulations we have, but most of them came about because someone abused the rights and priviledges we all have, and endangered the safety and well-being of others. Yes, stop the government from abusing its power, but to bring about lasting change and reform, we need to each one of us change from the heart out, so that we can rule ourselves and ALWAYS do what's right without someone looking over our shoulder telling us what to do. And that is impossible without God and the Bible.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), October 27, 2000.

Kathleen, you are absolutely right except the part about regulations coming about because of people abusing things. That's partly right but a lot of regulations came about because some politition or some individual or group wanted to protect us from ourselves. Like the seatbelt laws.

I agree 100% with the rest of your post.

-- Shooter (jcole@apha.com), October 27, 2000.

Shooter, I like your style. Amen Kathleen, you have summed up our problems very well. And offered the solution. God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), October 27, 2000.

I agree totally with Kathleen about our nation having turned from God and that we really have a problem of heart here. But as it was brought up earlier we will always have a need for some type of laws and regulations(just like the early settlers) because we are all born with a sin nature. I'm a believer but still continue to do the things I dont want to do (paraphrasing Paul). I'd still like to see the government let the people govern themselves as it was intended. But I think the truth of the matter is that the majority of people dont want that. I think they would rather be taken care of. And some people do need to be taken care of, but shouldn't their family do it? I would love to honor my parents by doing so. It is our goal to someday all live on the same property( kind of like the Walton's). If the family were more in tact then so many of the governments programs wouldn't be needed. I realize there are exceptions. I'm just a strong believer in taking care of one's own if possible. Well I could go on and on but I'll stop for now. Maybe what I said sounds simplistic but understand it comes from the heart.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), October 27, 2000.

hey denise!You just described the Gray's compound!!!LOL

Kathleen, you are absolutely right. If God isn't in the proper place, above us all, ie. One Nation UNDER God, we can't keep our good foundational government. I've read the book, I know who wins in the end, and I thank God everyday for my salvation. It is a gift and I treasure it. Justice cannot be upheld by godless people.

So where do we stand people? Are the Gray's worth defending? Or do you only defend yourself? What do you think?

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 27, 2000.

Here is a great idea, instead of letting the court system and ONLY the people involved work it out we will all go down cause a war and show thoughs kids what death and dying look like.Not to mention creating a few widows and fatherless children!Instead of shooting why dont we raise money for good lawyers instead?

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), October 27, 2000.

I have thought about this all day, and have decided again that violence is not the answer. I am a child of the 60's, witnessed first hand the violence and killing at Kent State in 1970, violence only leads to more violence. Doreen, your right, picketing will not solve the problem here, but I offer one solution. I have studied and deeply respect the writings and teachings of Gandhi, M.L.King, Alexander S., N.Mandela, and others; what do they have in common? Non violent civil disobediance is what, they were willing, with no fanfare and concern of self-promotion, to speak up for what they believed was right for the greater good of mankind. Most served many, many years in jail for expressing their beliefs, they held themselves up as an example for others to follow in their quest for freedom, and we continue to remember their great sacrifice even now. Only in gravest extreme is deadly force permissable, for the immediate protection of life. All of our lives have equal value, is it morally correct for many to die for the benefit of one? Especially when all other options have not been exhausted? Perhaps Mr. Gray should make the greatest sacrifice and serve out jail time to make an example of the seriousness of his convictions and beliefs, would certainly draw attention to the matter, and further his stand of personal freedom the greatest. I cannot condon violence as a solution to a problem, the blood of the slain weighs too heavily on my soul. Respectfully, Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), October 27, 2000.

Listen, I don't want ANYONE to be shot, hurt or injured. I am going there aremed with the most intense piece of equipment ever invented...a video camera. That and salvation, a willingness to be a human wall in the advent of violent criminal behaviour on the part of our government and my brain. But I ask again, are the Gray's worth defending? Is it worth ever taking a stand for someone other than yourself?

I have been arrested for protesting twice. Both times I have seen the event as portrayed by the media, and it wasn't even CLOSE to the truth. I don't know about the rest of you, but that is what I want to know more than anything else. I want the sordid, hard, absolute truth. No platitudes, no exceptions. It is what I seek and what I will defend.

So if there is an alternative to this being violent, might I suggest that "we the people" hold that card in our hands. If lots of people make a stand, the thing will end. Peaceably. Lawyers aren't going to fix it. The system is corrupt. We need to take it back. We can only do that by TAKING A STAND.

This is a homesteader who has achieved what we all say we want. They are pretty well self-sufficient. Are the Gray's worth defending?

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 28, 2000.

Doreen, I am so glad your chosen weapon is a video camera, that and about a hundred other similairly "armed" people" might help keep this from escalating into violence! Of course the Gray's are worth defending in this manner, anyone in a comparable plight would benefit from having adequate witnesses to prevent government forces bending the law to fit their needs. Sometimes truth needs to be well documented in the face of the media, who only care about sensationalism to get ratings. If there were more video cameras available in the era of the Kent State shootings, much of the violence would not have occured. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), October 28, 2000.

"One nation under God" sounds good until you realize just how many "God"'s are worshipped in this country. Who chooses which God we will be under and who gets to tell the losers that their God isn't allowed to be worshipped anymore? Middle East ring a bell?

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), October 28, 2000.

Annie, loved your speech on non violence. I applaud you well done.lets all say a prayer for the inocent children involved.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), October 29, 2000.

Kathleen and others, I agree with the part about having to get our hearts right and live by God's word and govern ourselves as individuals and take responsibility for our own actions and we would have a better country but I disagree with having too much involvement by "God's people" (my words). In my opinion, we would be swapping one set of dictators for another and that doesn't help the people. If you recall, oppressive religion and having religious leaders tell us how to live our lives is what caused us to revolt and form this independent country in the first place. I think it is important that we never forget that. We need to be a country led "By the People, For the People", not a country led by a small handful of people telling "We the People" what is good or not good for us and how we should live our lives and establish our laws. Let's just get back to all of us speaking up, doing what is right and kicking corrupt officials out of office. I don't need anyone telling me what is right for me, nor do you nor would I expect that I should tell you what is right for you. All that I care is that you, and all of us, not be apathetic but stand up and use our voice, our vote, and make a difference.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), October 30, 2000.