For your information, the president is installed, not "elected". The electorial "vote" is just a ruse to keep the ignorant, well...IGNORANT. AND....it works like a charm it seems. Just look at the likes of Ken Decker, Errington and the rest who are talking about "one vote this way is irresponsible" and "debates are a waste of time because they don't include MY party" yadda yadda.

QUESTION:

Who here still believes that the president is "elected" by the people, and why?

PS: George W. Bush is already the next president of this country.

-- Amused (very@mused.lol), October 21, 2000

Answers

Uh, no, that doesn't happen until he's elected Nov 7, then inaugriated Jan 22. And if you think Bush will be the victor -- stay tuned. You just might learn something.

-- aint over etc (@ .), October 21, 2000.

My question for "Amused":

What makes you think you know so silly much about the inner workings of the American political process?

My family was deep into NC politics at one time; an uncle worked in the Pentagon for Army JAG for 18 years; I went to prep school with George W.'s younger brother, for that matter; and I don't claim to know nearly what you claim to know. Are you the Jesuits' Black Pope or something?

It's easy to type stuff. Harder to back it up.

-- Chicken Little (y2k@whatajoke.net), October 21, 2000.

>> Who here still believes that the president is "elected" by the people, and why? <<

First, only "the people" who vote have even a small voice in who becomes President. Those who don't vote are throwing aside even that small voice.

Next, people vote for a slate of "electors" to cast their state's electoral votes. These electors are selected by the political parties that are represented on the Presidential part of the ballot. Since the party has a very large stake in how its electors vote, they are careful to choose electors who will loyally vote for their party's nominee.

The electors vote for President sometime later (in Dec?). It is considered a formality. But it is they who elect the President. Whoever they elect is inaugurated in late January of the following year. If the electoral vote is tied, the election is thrown into the House of Representatives - not the new one from the most recent election (they haven't been sworn in yet), but the old one. This has happened only once, I believe.

How do you think it happens, Amused?

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), October 21, 2000.

A brief lesson in government:

The current workings of the Electoral College: 7 Each State is allocated a number of Electors equal to the number of its U.S. Senators (always 2) plus the number of its U.S. Representatives (which may change each decade according to the size of each State's population as determined in the Census). 7 The political parties (or independent candidates) in each State submit to the State's chief election official a list of individuals pledged to their candidate for president and equal in number to the State's electoral vote. After their caucuses and primaries, the major parties nominate their candidates for president and vice president in their national conventions traditionally held in the summer preceding the election. The names of the duly nominated candidates are then officially submitted to each State's chief election official so that they might appear on the general election ballot. 7 On the Tuesday following the first Monday of November in years divisible by four, the people in each State cast their ballots for the party slate of Electors representing their choice for president and vice president (although as a matter of practice, general election ballots normally say "Electors for" each set of candidates rather than list the individual Electors on each slate). 7 Whichever party slate wins the most popular votes in the State becomes that State's Electors-so that, in effect, whichever presidential ticket gets the most popular votes in a State wins all the Electors of that State. [The two exceptions to this are Maine and Nebraska where two Electors are chosen by statewide popular vote and the remainder by the popular vote within each Congressional district]. 7 On the Monday following the second Wednesday of December (as established in federal law) each State's Electors meet in their respective State capitals and cast their electoral votes-one for president and one for vice president. 7 In order to prevent Electors from voting only for "favorite sons" of their home State, at least one of their votes must be for a person from outside their State (though this is seldom a problem since the parties have consistently nominated presidential and vice presidential candidates from different States). 7 The electoral votes are then sealed and transmitted from each State to the President of the Senate who, on the following January 6, opens and reads them before both houses of the Congress. 7 The candidate for president with the most electoral votes, provided that it is an absolute majority (one over half of the total), is declared president. Similarly, the vice presidential candidate with the absolute majority of electoral votes is declared vice president. 7 In the event no one obtains an absolute majority of electoral votes for president, the U.S. House of Representatives (as the chamber closest to the people) selects the president from among the top three contenders with each State casting only one vote and an absolute majority of the States being required to elect. Similarly, if no one obtains an absolute majority for vice president, then the U.S. Senate makes the selection from among the top two contenders for that office. 7 At noon on January 20, the duly elected president and vice president are sworn into office. Distribution of Electoral Votes Total Electoral Vote: 538 Needed to Elect: 270

State 1991-2000 Alabama 9 Alaska 3 Arizona 8 Arkansas 6 California 54 Colorado 8 Connecticut 8 Delaware 3 D.C. 3 Florida 25 Georgia 13 Hawaii 4 Idaho 4 Illinois 22 Indiana 12 Iowa 7 Kansas 6 Kentucky 8 Louisiana 9 Maine 4 Maryland 10 Massachusetts 12 Michigan 18 Minnesota 10 Mississippi 7 Missouri 11 Montana 3 Nebraska 5 Nevada 4 New Hampshire 4 New Jersey 15 New Mexico 5 New York 33 North Carolina 14 North Dakota 3 Ohio 21 Oklahoma 8 Oregon 7 Pennsylvania 23 Rhode Island 4 South Carolina 8 South Dakota 3 Tennessee 11 Texas 32 Utah 5 Vermont 3 Virginia 13 Washington 11 West Virginia 5 Wisconsin 11 Wyoming 3

-- Casey DeFranco (caseydefranco@mindspring.com), October 21, 2000.

Sorry about that formatting. I'm a dolt when it comes to that.

-- Casey DeFranco (caseydefranco@mindspring.com), October 21, 2000.

HEY!aint over etc Bush is Red Al Bore is Blue

Do the math....

-- George W (Next@Prez.com), October 21, 2000.

Amused:

I take it you are not a math whiz. Just a Whiz. Technically, popular vote on a state-by-state basis determines who is PreZ.

In the famous words of Paul; what a MORON.

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 21, 2000.

I believe that Amused is trying to say that the elections are "fixed". I don't believe it; if they were fixed, the republicrats wouldn't need to put so much energy into keeping Ralph and others out of the debates, the press, and the public consciousness.

On the other hand, I want to warn you of what's coming down the pike: VBM (vote by mail) It is now officially the ONLY choice in Oregon. No longer are the votes counted at individual polling places, thus frustrating anyone wishing to "adjust" the results. Now, our county clerks get to hold on to the ballots from now (we received them by mail today) until Nov. 7. In not so well secured locations. Then, when all the votes are in (hopefully not MORE than all the votes, but the clerk where I live orders three or four thousand (I forget the exact number) extra ballots in case someone that many people show up later than expected and want a ballot.

Then, to top it off, our county clerk, with her fleet of underlings, examines every single ballot, erasing "smudges", and marking the ballot "more clearly" so the scanners can read them "correctly".

I can't say that our clerk is untrustworthy, but a lot of folks around here are not so close mouthed as I am, but I think the whole vote by mail business is a terrible development.

Next, I'm told that we will soon be going to vote by email. This is purported to be much more tamper proof than VBM, but I doubt it. When we can get teeny boppers breaking the security firewalls of major government agencies and mega coporations, I would imagine that a person could buy a hacker to fix an election for about a dollar three ninety-six.

Brian McLoughlin, you live up near Portland, Oregon, don't you? What's your hit on VBM? What do your fellow citizens think?

JOJ

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), October 21, 2000.

JOJ:

I think that Brian lives in Beaverton, or whatever the spelling. Just west of Portland.

An idea we have been kicking around in meetings about how to handle global warming and energy problems involves Oregon. What would you think about Oregon becoming a test case. Sort of a large experiment to see if we can do it. A total change organized around mass transit sites. Many limitations on personal transit.

What do you think?

Best wishes,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 21, 2000.

Hell, Z, why not. Oregon's already been a test case in "the Oregon Plan", vote by mail, and the bottle bill.

How about some details? I can tell you that the Portland Metropolitan area grew by something like sixty percent in the last decade, that I can hardly stand to even drive the "bypass" (I 205) around Portland anymore to visit my mom in Vancouver (which is growing even faster--I used to have trouble even finding her house, as the orchards and farms kept turning into shopping centers, the two lane country roads kept turning into four lane roads, the stop signs kept turning into traffic lights, and the traffic kept turning into a disaster.

I was talking to the head of the Oregon DOT on a call in show recently; he informed me that my suggestion of paying a LITTLE less attention to building new mega freeways, and a little more to mass transit here in my little backwater, would not become practical until we residents became so disgusted with traffic jams that we'd actulaly consider using it. In that case, I said, I guess I'll keep driving my old pickup. Thanks anyway.

Let me know about your plan to use us as a test case. I'm ready.

JOJ

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), October 21, 2000.

You are probably right Amused,,, and the really hilarious part is that it doesn't matter who in f*ck wins anyway.

You've picked your name well,,,,

America wonderful life of the party slut that she is trys to provide a comfortable return/reality for all... and to all a good night ;)

-- Will (righthere@home.now), October 22, 2000.

The point is my personal vote will not elect the pres...it's true. Nixon won the popular vote and Kennedy was elected president in 1959. The way our system works is we have to hammer our reps to vote the way we think and for what we want. I'm screwed...I get geniuses like Feinstein, Waxman, and Boxer picking for me...oh well.

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), October 22, 2000.

Uncle Bob,

>Nixon won the popular vote and Kennedy was elected president in 1959.

Wrong on two counts.

1) Kennedy's popular vote was 34,227,096. Nixon's was 34,108,546. Though neither won a majority of the total popular vote (because of votes cast for other candidates), Kennedy did receive the highest number of popular votes.

2) That election was in 1960, not 1959.

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), October 24, 2000.

Z and JOJ,

This thread may not survive the stress of morphing from the electoral college to mass transit. [She canna stand the strain! She's going to blow, Cap'n!]

I started a new thread to discuss Oregon as a mass transit breeding ground. I hope to see you there.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), October 24, 2000.

since Z is qouting milne, I will qoute cory with "Okay bigbrains.."

cupla questions:

if the polls don't close til 8 pm on election day, and EVERYONE's popular "vote" 'elects' the president, why is it that on my way to cast my ballot at 6 pm PST can I tune in to CNN or whatever and find out who the newly "elected" (ha ha) president is?

#2

when Kennedy was assasinated, it is believed it was for trying to break the federal reserve bank by issuing 50 (b?)million in T-bills. Lynden B. signed the order to resind those bills the day before he was sworn in as president. How does THAT work if the president is not installed by the PTB?

Just those two simple questions for you, bigbrains. See if you can answer them coherently, will ya?

-- Amused (very@mused.lol), October 25, 2000.

if the polls don't close til 8 pm on election day, and EVERYONE's popular "vote" 'elects' the president, why is it that on my way to cast my ballot at 6 pm PST can I tune in to CNN or whatever and find out who the newly "elected" (ha ha) president is?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that all of the networks made it a policy now that they won't predict the outcome until all polls have closed. In any case, those are predictions made based on exit polls. They are usually right, but have been known to be wrong.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), October 25, 2000.

buddy is that THEY have gotten you to believe that its just "predictions based on exit polling" heh heh.

What big brains, no other comments? I just asked two very VERY simple questions. c'mon BB, you can do better than this.

-- amused (lol@ignorance.com), October 29, 2000.

amused,

>Lynden B. signed the order to resind those bills the day before he was sworn in as president.

Johnson was sworn in as President in the afternoon of Friday, November 22, 1963, on board Air Force One not long after Kennedy was declared dead. I think you will find that Johnson did not sign any such order before that time. Do you have a reference for your claim about that order?

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), October 30, 2000.

Tomorrow will prove me correct. I've known since early 99 that Bush would be the next Prez. Not that it matters at all, he is just a figurehead for TPTB.

-- Amused (lol@the.ignorance.here), November 06, 2000.

Watch and learn.....LOL!......watch and learn.....

Still think your "vote" matters, oh ignorant ones?

LOL!

-- Gore wins popular vote (butBush@goes.in.anyway!!!!!), November 08, 2000.

PS: George W. Bush is already the next president of this country.

Wanna explain how I *KNEW* that so far in advance, bigbrains????

Do you BELIEVE yet?!?!?

PS: I already know who is in in 04!

-- Amused (very@mused.lol), December 23, 2000.

Yes. I want to know. Come back to this thread.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), December 27, 2000.