The other night, my wife and I saw a program on PBS about "communities". It showed how communities can be where you live, work or congregate. The program also explained how these "communities" provided the various necessities. Its with this in mind, I am posting this thread. Many of us here at the forum work "rat race" jobs in addition to self reliant living in order to provide all of our neccessities. Lets all bounce it off each other and see what might be benificial. It may be possible to address some issues in a "co-op" type approach. An example of this would be group health insurance. It may be possible to aquire a group coverage plan similar to what employers offer if there was a large enough co-op. What are your ideas?

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), October 17, 2000

Answers

Jay,

It takes a special group of people to make things like co-op living work. Mostly some revived words we will need like honesty, trust and dignity. I'm afraid I cannot commit locally much less across a internet terminal.

Since you choice health care as an example I would like to share a recent local development in Virginia. The Roanoke area healthcare system is a monopoly owned by Carillion Health Care Systems. They own every hospital and every clinic and until 2 weeks ago almost every doctor was theirs. Than Doctor Malpass left their system taking over a hundred of their doctors with him. He announced that this group denounced HMO's--would not except patients with HMO insurance. PPO insured only ! It sent the entire 4 county region into medical shock--until you read the fine print and found ppo insurance cost less ! He stated " I cannot be a good doctor to you if you continue HMO"S and I refuse to be a bad one any longer " Everyone I know immediately dropped their Carillion HMO policies because Malpass is the best !

I hope this starts a trend nationwide to drive the HMO"S off our shores ! Maybe all it takes to fix our problems is some men of GUTS. Maybe we should all just suffer a little instead of a lot. I'm starting tommorrow--if I don't like the system I refuse to give it one penny ! Next year my fields will lay fallow--let the bastards in government eat cake ! I encourage all farmers not to plant--arm yourselves defend your fields but grow nothing ! Let us see how long a starving people will offer us a $1.40 a bushell for corn. I'll starve a whole world before I let them steal it from me !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), October 17, 2000.

Joel, I have PPO also. My question: What are some ways to get coverage comparable to that offered at my plant on the "outside". The BC/BS office says it take an established group like an employer or organization. Could there be an organization for homestead farmers? We have a local farmers market restricted to small (under 1 acre) gardners and farmers. If I could find PPO at reasonable rates, I would gladly pay a yearly member due to get a good monthly premium. For all I know it may already be out there and we arn't aware of it (I know I have seen other posts along this subject line). As far as your political position, please vote for changes as you see fit and I hope your vote helps achieve the results you seek.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), October 17, 2000.

Correct me, If I am wrong (like I need to ask) but the program you describe, it sounds alot like the concept of socialism. Great idea, lousy results.

-- Kathy (catfish@bestweb.net), October 17, 2000.

Jay, the only community I have found to support me is this one. I live in a rural area where folks have gardens, but it's not as a hobby or to hone homesteading skills. It is out of habit. Practically every man I know plants 2 or 3 tomato plants every year, then sprays the fool out of them to keep them alive. No organics, no mulch, just blast away with chemicals. There is no attitude of helping with rural skills, no back-to-the-land mentality. I literally don't know anyone else here who cares about the quality of the meat they eat or the air or water that sustains life. It is to the point that I don't even bother to share with others what I am learning in the garden, the chicken coop, or the greenhouse. I firmly believe that a person needs the community to support and encourage them in order to be a success. You zeroed in on health care, but there are a dozen diverse topics, from solar power to chicken tractors, but no one is interested. Why bother building a chicken tractor when Tyson sells whole fryers for 49cents a # at WalMart? I really had some hope that Y2K would be a big enough deal to wake folks up and cause communities to come together. We didn't get that, did we? So, I guess for time being, I will continue to view this forum as my community.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), October 17, 2000.

Umm - Jay, correct me if I'm wrong; but you aren't endorsing co-op living, as in a commune - are you? I got the notion that you were more interested in a homesteader's co-op like the farm co-ops of years ago - is that sort of what you were thinking like? Wasn't the Grange sort of a co-op and didn't they do other things besides help farmers market their crops?

Around here, our electricity is provided by a co-op. I don't think our rates are half bad - at least we have electricity; which, 60 years ago, we wouldn't have had without the co-op. "Town" electric companies didn't want to mess with stringing wire out in the country - much cheaper to go from house to house in town. Then again - most folks had a windmill with generator, so maybe they didn't do us that big a favor!!

I have insurance through my employer (that I pay at least part of the cost for), but I wouldn't mind looking into some sort of a co-op. It would depend on what choices in MD's and hospitals I had and what the cost would be. Our electric co-op also offers propane, satillite TV, internet and cel phones - but I currently get all four of them elsewhere. They are trying to start a co-op for water but haven't been able to get it off the ground in the 6 years or so that they have been trying. Sure wish they would - the water out here is lousy. I think co-ops are a good idea, if you have good management. Lets a bunch of "little" people band together to get the same benefits as big business.

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), October 17, 2000.

In Iowa, I was a member of the Lehigh Telephone cooperative. Most years we paid our bills of 25 dollars a month and got a co-op check in December of about 1000 dollars, it was a real nice deal.

To me the word co-op means share. Share the profit, share the loss. I guess that is a pipe dream anymore.

I guess I misunderstood the question also. I am unable to trust a co-op of health insured people but I agree they probably do exist. I do know for a fact the Lutheran Church has such a plan called Aid Association for Lutherans. However, the big wigs splurge the profis on high priced CEO's just like the major insurance companies. Screwed Again. So I just don't know.

I'm going to stick with that 1000.00 a year out of pocket deal and let BC/BS pay the rest.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), October 17, 2000.

Yes, I was speaking of the type of co-op the farmers had, and TVA and the Rural Electric Assoc used to bring power in. I am just curious if anyone is aware of any types of those programs currently being offered that may be of benifit to us small scale agriculturists.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), October 17, 2000.

Melina, The points that you hit on are very valid. You mentioned the Wal Mart thing, what if we here at the forum could somehow figure how to market our produce under a national specialty label. Just as national colas use district bottlers with marketing rights, we had packageing and marketing rights. Not selling the cheapest, instead the healthiest. A homesteader could aquire the rights to use of the national label and market in metro areas, benifiting from national advertising. This would be one co-op possibility.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), October 18, 2000.

Jay,

I think the marketing idea is great! In my area (NW WA) people are extrememly health conscious. Chicken and beef and eggs (not to mention flour, etc.) is going for double (at least) of regular prices.

There is one company (that was just bought out by Kelloggs or something) named Cascadia that offers everything from milk to cereal to frozen convenience foods. It sells.

I think there is a huge market for somewhat affordable healthy food. I know that organic and free range is best but I cannot afford to feed my family hamburger for $3 a pound. If it was only 150% of supermarket price then maybe I could swing it.

-- Amy Richards (tiggerwife@aol.com), October 18, 2000.

I'm not sure, but I think the Farm Bureau offers some type of insurance to farmers. And there is at least one Christian organization that offers health insurance (possibly life ins. also) in what I think is a co-op type of arranglement. There may be more out there that I don't know about. But when my husband and I sell our house here and quit our jobs, we are definitely going to have to consider some kind of alternative health insurance. (What is a PPO, by the way? I think I should know, but it's escaping me right now.) What we are planning to do, right now, is keep some money in an emergency fund, and have a high deductible catastrophic insurance policy. Even for that, we could probably do better by working with others in a co-op type of arrangement. As for marketing things grown by forum members, the biggest problem with all arrangements of that type is ensuring that all members produce the same quality of product. You can't have variations and inconsistencies if you are going to put one name on all of it. If people are growing different kinds of product (example, different types of wool -- long wool, Merino, etc.) at least there would have to be a similarly high level of quality. It takes a long time for a product to get a reputation for good quality, but only one bad lot to get a bad reputation. It's a good idea, but would be difficult to manage successfully -- but worth thinking about, and perhaps someday it will all come together.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), October 18, 2000.

Hillbilly translation of a PPO--I pay for every medical expense up to 1000 dollars a year --after that it is an 80% (insurer) 20% (me) split.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), October 18, 2000.

Joel, The $1000 , 80/20 split actually looks better than my employers COBRA. $400 month, 60/40 split when you leave active employment. Is it available on individual basis? To the rest of you, thanks for throwing some good things in. I know we can't solve all problems , but maybe we can shed a little light, see a different perspective and maybe make some things just a little closer.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), October 18, 2000.

I think right now that this forum is the best co-op as the exchange of the most valuable commodity that of information. One of the problems with group insurance is the regional cost of medical care. For example I can tell you the charges for the same service in Phoenix where I lived until I moved here 3 1/2 years ago is a lot more than is charged by local hospitals and other health care providers here in s w missouri. So it would have to be a more local group than say all of us here on the best forum here. I need to answer some e-mails of people near me I have copied them but am wanting to really think of what to say as I would like to see nothing offical you know like country side clubs. But to be able once in a while to drive and visit over a cup of coffee and actually talk to someone live that doesn't think you are crazy for what many of us are trying to do. And to be able to give a handshake as you are leaving and saying be sure to visit my place as soon as you can. Being able to show off the new pallet and old camper shell barn to someone that would think yes that looks like it will work fine instead of thinking boy that will never be on a magazine cover. Of course they don't know about Countryside which is to bad for them but maybe good for us as if some would learn that these nuts really have a national quality publication to help in what they do they would really be worried. You know I think in a way we already have the best of both worlds as we do our homestead the best we can and simplify but yet can use a modern technology such as this forum. Just some of my thoughts but tonight is one for me to rant so guess I need to shut down and read a good book. Thanks to all of you for being here you have no idea how much it means to me and I will bet a lot of others living beyond the sidewalks. Sorry JD hope I didn't enfringe on your copyright. gail

-- gail missouri ozarks (gef123@hotmail.com), October 19, 2000.

Jay, It has been a long time since I purchased PPO insurance independently, but it is available. I paid 80 bucks a month for the kids back in Iowa in 1990. It would not suprise me to find that fiqure to have doubled (or tripled ) since than. I purchased it from an independent agent but it was BC/BS and I think it was a 2500 dollar out of pocket maximum. Our present policy originates at my wife's employment. Sorry. I have heard many bad things about cobra so be careful. My wife (an R. N.) says you would get better treatment in the facility with no insurance than to have cobra. She says the only medical procedures that cobra allows could be done more effectively with a pocket knive and bandaids. She added-- just give your doctor the 400 a month and he'll treat you for anything !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), October 19, 2000.

Yea Joel, thats some of the things I have been seeing about independent insurance. My companies cobra is so high and our local agents arn't much better. Right now, I'm ready to make the move to full time 'steading, but with my CP and Lynns high BP, I don't want to lose the coverage and the companies biweek premium rate.

Gail, Your point about getting together, I have thought about this also. As you pointed out , this forum is like an electronic grange. A possible way to get locals together face to face without the terror of cyberspace would be to run a where are you from post series narrowing it down to an area small enough that any interested parties could meet at a local restaurant for coffee and conversation . People could carry a copy of Countryside in hand instead of wearing a pink carnation as a flag.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), October 19, 2000.

PPO=preferred provider organization. A bunch of docs agree to join and you're limited to the docs on the list except under special circumstances.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), October 21, 2000.

John, your partially correct, PPO does use a list for "deep discount", but you can go to docs not on the list, just not as much of a discount.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), October 22, 2000.