According to our people at Wembley.

17:35 7/10/00

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Answers

That will give the Makems something to crow and go on about.

Sky Sport have got Shearer and Wilkinson already esconsed as favourites.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Time for a foreigner - the only Englishman up to the job is firmly esconced at SJP.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Lippi........more to follow.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Fair enough - it's not just this game, is it? We were very lucky to qualify for E2000, and rubbish when we got there. He's admitted he's 'short' at this level - fair play to him.

Can we have a poll for least appropriate replacement? My vote's for Gary Megson.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Should he have resigned, 4 days before the Finland game? To me, the answer is no. He should have stuck it out. Fine, resign once, but this is the 2nd tim he has bottled it. I'm afraid aal those KK knockers were right. The man was tactically naive and has no bottle. What aboot a swap fer YBR?

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Andy Gray anyone?

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

I simply can't believe this news!
This man has been a god as far as I'm concerned, and I could understand the personal reasons why he resigned at SJP. However, if he has indeed walked out on the England team with an even more critical WC game now to play on Wednesday, then he has gone way, way down in my estimation. Such an action I'm afraid would be highly unprofessional and deeply regrettable.
C'mon Kevin, don't be so bloody crass!

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

That's very sad news,He IS THE BEST MAN FOR THE JOB, Who the hell are they gonna get now?

Howard Bleedin Wilkinson?

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Personally, I'd go for El Tel. I still maintain he's the best English coach we've had in a long time - in fact in my lifetime (more than may, baring ITK, Buff and others who I will refrain from naming) I would say he's in the top 3. Ramsey was there simply because he won the WC. YBR because he was good. Any others? Nah, thought not.

Now we've got Wilko. Will he bring in Doberman or will he be out after Wednesday? He's not my favourite man, nor my first choice, but we could do a lot worse - and probably will.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Watching Sky sport and listening to some of our people filing reports, seems like the idea of resigning was in his mind THIS MORNING.......the headline on Teletext and Ceefax yesterday was him saying that a draw would be an acceptable result....sounds like a negative attitude throughout to me

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Just a thought - Cloughie. OK, I wasn't serious. 20 years too late.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Crozier (FA CE) is being interviewed. He's very disappointed and understands KK's reasons. Reaction of crowd major influence and the FA tried all they could to get him to stay (so no surporise he's going then).

Must stay focussed for Weds. Crozier says players were behind KK 100% but KK feels he needs to go. Crozier says timing in not ideal - maybe this will kick the players into reaction.

No hint for a successor. Weds is the focus and they will look after that.

For me, KK has gone down in my estimation. Sorry Kev, but I can'tforgive you for this one.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

PS. I never realised that the English FA's Chief Exec was Scottish. Hmmm - Gooner Graham to succeed KK? Nah, he's got a job. But I know another Scotsman who is out of a job and has managed a team or three.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

The Makems are crapping themselves that Peter Reid is goona get taken away from them for the job......PERLEASSSSSSSSSE......we are not THAT desperate surely

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Just watched KK's interview on TV. As ever, he's honest enough to admit that he just isn't good enough for the job. He suggested that he'd got a bit of stick from the crowd as he walked off, and is saying it was the supporters that put him into the job, and they have the right to tell him to go.
He says he's going for the right reasons, but on this occasion I have to strongly disagree with him. I think he's putting his personal emotions before the good of his National Team, and in walking away from a tough situation he is simply taking the easy option. Full stop.
If he believes he is not good enough for the job he should make that view clear to the FA, and insist they appoint someone else as soon as possible. To just walk out and leave the team and the FA in the lurch like this with another cirtical game in only four days IMO is unforgiveable: a kop out.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

What has Vegetables ever done for England? His reputation rests solely on a 4-1 win against the Dutch in a competition for which he didn't have to qualify and in which he only got his team to the semis thanks to a blind linesman in the quaters against Spain.

Look at his recent record - led Australia to defeat against the might of Iran on the international scene and at home he was been a total disaster at Portsmouth and Palace.

Anybody but Venables. The man is an overrated spiv.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Agreed Clarky. If (as he hinted) he'd been thinking about this for a while, he should have gone after Euro 2000. If it was simply a gut reaction, then he was selfish.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Surely, the mackems don't seriously think Mr. Heed is a contender? Oh perlees!
I reckon I've got marginally better chance than him, ie. none.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

The press will no doubt bury him under the rubble of Wembley after this, but I have to agree.... if he has been thinking about it for a while, then to do it now is selfish......at least he could have stuck it out for Finland on Wednesday. Vegetable is little more than an over rated spiv........as far as I am concerned there is really only one contender for the job...........step forward

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.PETER TAYLOR.....stuff Leicester and give the mian sqaud the same treatment you did the youngsters.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

I've just heard on TV that there was 'hearty' rendition of "what a load of rubbish" by the Wembley crowd after the game - almost certainly "the clincher" for KK.
I feel very sad for him - but while he may have made the correct decision, this is most definitely not the right way to go about it.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

having watched the game, you can't base a resignation on being rightfully criticised, the performance as far as I was concerned was pathetic and showed little or no ambition.

England were crap, Garemnay were just slightly better and the winner was the bliddy weather........so why resign tonight.....why not Thursday morning.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

IMHO, El Telwas starting to blend a good team when he was ousted (not for football reasons) and had he continued, we'd have had a better run of success than we've had.

I also believe he's a decent coach. But it's not only on the pitch - we also need someone who can take pressure and who can relate to the press, both of which Venables can do well.

Taylor may be an option, but O'd be surprised if (a) the FA would have him (b) he'd have the FA. Otherwise, why did Wilko take over the U-21s from him?

Much as I'd hate it, the only top British name I'd have would be........SAF.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Garemnay

strangest spelling of Germany I've ever seen!

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

ITK - yes, England were cr@p. But whose fault was that? The players (to a degree) or the manager (to a degree). You can't blame the weather. From what I saw, as much rain fell on Hermann and there was as much mud under their feet as ours.

They had a bigger, stronger team who adapted to the conditions better than we did. They had many more chances than we did, tho that is perhaps due to us going for an equaliser towards the end. We improved after halftime. Prior to that, we had the wrong shape and were overrun. Sky's statistics showed that. Sadly, we didn't have many options on the bench tho' LKD did make a difference when he came on. Whether that was entirely down to LKD or simply the new shape of the team, Idon't know.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

I'm sorry he's gone - but not surprised.

Knowing the man as we like to think we do on this BBS I reckon some of the things that happened today that sickened me will have sickened him too - Namely:

Booing the German Anthem

Throwing a coin at one of the players

Singing "Stand up if you won the war"

Booing the England team (and Keegan) off the pitch.

I think he was wrong tactically today. I can't understand why he always seems to take what he considers the safe option with England when he was so brave at Newcastle. I mean playing Southgate in midfield, playing Neville, playing two strikers 'cos he can't decide who's best along with Barmby and Scholes.

He probably wasn't right for the job when all's said and done and for me Venables is the Only real option.

I'm very sad for him, but proud that he made the decision, before the press made it for him.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

venables was always just a couple of players short of having a wonderful team at Spurs. At Barca he won the league for the first time in ages but for God sake he had enough buying power to do it. EVERY team who has hosted the Euopean Cahmpionships has reacjed the semis (up to Belgium this year). That means any one can do it and Venables isn't special for achieving it.

Of all the things listed above, Peter Taylor is the best bet. I don't know whether Cloughie will still want to work with him though :0)

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

I'd glad you mentioned the really unsavoury aspects of todays game Pilgrim. In the aftermath of KK's decision I'd overlooked to comment on these incidents.
To show such massive disrespect for any nations anthem is appalling: for a crowd 'en mass' to chant "Stand up if you won the war" in the middle of a football game against Germany simply beggars belief and displays a lack of manners and common decency, and a total absence of class.
As I commented to my wife in the middle of this disgusting chant "this crowd symolises everything that is wrong with England today". To mark the end of the proud traditions of Wembley Stadium in this sick, jingoistic manner, and then round off proceedings by chanting "what a load of rubbish" to our own national team, however disappointing their display, says a great deal about the ills affecting our society.
I feel embarrasssed, disgusted and not at all proud to be English tonight.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

The truth is that Kevin Keegan shot himself in the foot when he quit (for that is what he did) Newcastle United.

He had everything a manager could want. In charge of a massive, booming club, an adoring public, quality players everywhere and a board of directors prepared to back him financially to the hilt.

And simply because he found himself under pressure after some bad results he threw it all away, spat out the dummy and resigned.

Keegan has a determined, stubborn streak that worked to his advantage as a player but it has been his undoing as a manager.

If quitting the job at NUFC was a mistake then so was quitting the Fulham job. I was surprised that he left them because the Keegan of old, the Keegan that did such a great job at the toon was on the way back.

However his haste, his greed even, to grab the glory too quickly and take the England job has shown that what he really lacks, so far, as a manager is resilience, the determination to see the job through when the going gets really tough.

I believe that Kevin Keegan is, and can still be in the future, a very good manager but he was never cut out to be the manager of England at the present. He has'nt been prepared to experience the lows that all of the top managers have had to, and for that reason he has blown his chance, as the England manager anyway.

Where does he go from here? If he wants to stay in football then he needs to get back to basics. Personally I would love to think he could end up back at the toon but at the moment there is little chance of that.

As for England where do they go? Who gives a fuck......but it will probably be Venables. After all who else will take the job?.....

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

The truth, Andy, is that KK just doesn't need all the cr@p that surrounds managing a big Club and magnified 10 times over as manager of England.

He is a rich man, financially secure, who was persuaded to manage the Toon, persuaded to manage Fulham, and then persuaded to manage England.
He responded to the emotional challenge of waking up a sleeping giant at the Toon and making it a great Club, but without the financial need to stick it out when the going got tough he quit. The same thing has happened with England.
Few people can put up with the extreme pressures of public life without a clear financial incentive, and KK just happens to one who can't and won't. That doesn't mean he is any lesser a person, even though I believe he is quite wrong to desert England in such a precipitous fashion. However, he did the same with the Toon, and it would be great surprise to me if he ever put himself in the firing line again. I think we've probably seen the last of KK in football management.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Clarky,

I was saying exactly the same thing to my wife. We both felt ashamed, particularly as we're moving to Germany. I'd like to hope that if the matches were played at SJP we might respect the anthems at least, but that's probably wishful thinking. Every club has it's share of headbangers and they all seem to congregate at England matches.

Mrs P's view was that it's only when we talk about the war that we feel one nation in Britain, rather than a divided, squabbling bunch of "I'm all right Jack-ers". Maybe that's harsh but crowds in this country (I'm only speaking of England now but don't forget the booing of the British national anthem that always happens in Scotland)always manage to make me ashamed, and not just at football events. You see the same thing on holidays abroad when you bump into our lovely young lager louts.

It's like we've been in a timewarp for the last 50 years while the rest of Europe moved on.

Sorry if this sounds unpatriotic, I can assure you I love my county, but sometimes our people make me soooo depressed!

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Cant imagine any manager coming in and doing any better- the players havent performed for countless years except in the big big games. Southgate in midfield was a big error even if it was the result of careful analysis of the way the Germans play, espec considering it was at Wembley.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

I would agree with three of those four Pilgrim.....the one I disagree with would be the booing of the team.

I believe that at the END of the game.....if you have paid your hard earned money to watch a football match of any sort and you do not believe that you have been given value for money, then you are entitled to vent you views. I don't necessarily agree with booing them onto the pitch at the start (which has been done) or at half time or even during the game itself, but once you have been served the entire fare, then everyone is entitled to a view and I would rather hear people do that than see them invade the pitch or going off to smash up the surrounding area.

I may be a voice of one on this issue, but you have to be able to give rise to your feeling somehow.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

ITK - booing has always seemed to be an unsavoury thing to do at a sporting event (or indeed any other form of entertainment). However, I agree with you in that if you don't let them know, how does Joe Public dispay his displeasure. "I say old chaps, that wasn't very good" - nah, doesn't scan not has it the right sort of ring to it.

Barca fans have their own particular way of expressing their disgust - usually towards the coach - by waving hankies, tho that would never do over here as everybody would likely die of flu in a couple of weeks.

So what does Jack Tar do? Suffer in silence, or allow the journos to vent their spleen on their behalf. I know what would make me feel better - andit ain't to let the tabloid t0$$ers do it forme.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

I have now got this picture of football fans all over the country having their hankies taken away from them as potentially deadly weapons!

On the subject of booing......I think I can safely say that in recent times I have only booed the Toon off the pitch three times.....Southampton this season, Wimbledon last season and before that Oxford when we lost 5-2 (RIP Ossie)

It may sound unsavoury, but I think you have got my point of booing being the only 'safe' way to vent your feelings.....and if you disagree I'll come round and rip you throat out!

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

I feel so alienated from Ingerlund because of the fanbase and the behaviour which is tolerated as though it is acceptable that I cheered when the Jormans scored even though it was that lanky Judas Hamoan. I have nothing in common with people who boo someone else's national anthem and applaud anything which lessens the chance of our pissed up f*ckwits travelling to Japan to sing songs about Hiroshima. How can you be patriotic about something which makes you an international pariah? We aren't fit to be involved in International competition so thank God our players are too inept to get us to the Finals; I'll be able to enjoy them as much as I did USA '94 without being made to feel ashamed all the time.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Watch out ITK,

Krist the Mackem halfwit is accusing you of being me again, on RTG. Yawn.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Oh dear, oh dear, OH DEAR. Not a good day - hopefully tomorrow will be a little better.
Goodnight gang.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Andy

I know....sad isn't he.....but well worth a wind up.......been having a little ding dong with MK as well tonight, another sad and twisted tw@t.....hehehehe ;0)

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

ITK,

Point taken and accepted about the booing - I was really giving that as a contributory factor for KK's resignation, it didn't upset me particularly, though I still don't like it. Do you think a Geordie crowd would be any better (a serious question, not rhetorical)? I remember being proud when I went to Wembley in 76 (?) for the league cup final and we clapped Man City on their lap of honour. Similarly when Del Peiro was clapped from the pitch a few years ago. The Sydney crowd at this olympics were brilliant. Partisan as hell but applauded all the winners. The reaction Steve Redgrave got was brilliant. The respectful silence in France a few weeks ago when the England played and our anthem was on. That's what sport is all about.

Last Tuesday I bought The Sun at Frankfurt Railway Station to have a read of the sport and nearly died when I saw the back page "Don't mention the Whore". I had to keep it hidden all the way home. Our tabloid press are responsible for an awful lot of the Jingoistic attitude - they feed it and encourage it. The frustrating thing is that I can't see it getting any better in the foreseeable future. Seventy percent of the county probably feel like us (pure guess) but how can we change the attitude of the rest? I don't have any answers - I just wish it was different.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

So very true Pilgrim.....that's why I specifically said about booing AFTER the game.

I know your question was rhetorical, however, I would like to think that a full Geordie crowd would be more sporting and not boo during another team/country anthem......(out of interest, what happenend at SJP during Euro 96)

I was also there at Wembley in both 74 and 76 when we applauded 'Pool and City respectively round the pitch, and in the former it obviously meant applauding some little get called Keegan!.......

I always remember ringing my dad after the 74 cup final and him saying that as 'Pool were being presented with the cup, all you could here on the tele was first of all Hawway the Lads and then the Blaydon Races.

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

I wrote: I would like to think that a full Geordie crowd would be more sporting and not boo during another team/country anthem

but forgot to add at the end..... or are my rose tinted glasses getting in the way again?

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

take the delete off Ken you to$$er

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

So Keegan has gone. As someone said previously this shows that he has no bottle. But I think it also shows that the man has an enormous conceit. When you get a new job you usually have to learn - and frequently from your mistakes. Not so KK. He tries one way only but is not prepared to take stock, make changes in his approach, and get on with the job. Its just "My way right away." Pitifull. Saying he is not up to the job just seems a terrible cop out. Most of us aren't fully up to our jobs when we start them.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2000

Well, after a good night's sleep, it still doesn't seem to improve things, although I can perhaps now reflect more on the "performance" at Wembley. In a way, it was a fitting end for an oversized p1$$p0t of a place. We can only hope that with the advent of a new stadium, so will we have a new national identity at football matches in future. Some hope. I too was saddened by the total disrespect shown towards our European neighbours and international friends.

Is it any surprise that our team do so poorly on the pitch when our "fans" behave so badly off it? (Mind, I'd like to have seen a few more of the players sing their hearts out at the beginning in the way Tony Adams and KK did). Where is the pride in playing for your country and supporting them? Booing the opponents national anthem is not showing English pride - it is simply an example of bad manners and as pointed out by Pilgrim, it is something which is whipped up by the gutter press.

I'm not sure it would make any difference, but I do think the press should be told to "behave themselves". Let's get behind the national team. But please stop this jingoistic journalism at once.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2000

Simple 3 point plan:

1) Everyone in the media to sign a declaration that England don't have a divine right to win anything.
2) Unsporting behaviour from fans to be met by ejection and banning from Stadiums.
3) Treat the England manager's job as what it is: part time.

For some unknown reason we behave quite well towards the underdog, so perhaps if we tried treating our national side like the underdog we might become a little easier to cope with.

Face the facts: we've won nothing as a nation without home advantage, the top leagues are stuffed with Brazillian, Argentinian, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Croatian and Yugoslavian players and the only Englishman playing abroad is Steve Macmananananananaman and he can't get a game. We're crap, so getting a reputation for naked aggression, lack of sportsmanship, arrogance and ill grace in defeat hardly improves our lot, does it? The Scots have come an awful long way since breaking the goalposts at Wembley so there is nothing to stop us changing our attitudes as to what it means to support England.

Until then, I'm cheering for the other lot.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2000

I think they key difference in the Scots these days Softie is that they have accepted their role as perpetual underdogs - we haven't. Yet.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2000

Interesting, if disturbing article in the Funday Times this morning about KK's demise. However, it's authored by Joe Lovejoy, who I've castigated on here a number of times, so I need to be careful to say that it could all be journalistic horse-bleep.
He reckons KK's 'desertion' - no other word adequately describes it IMO - was not entirely unexpected and that some contingency planning had already been done. The FA apparently favour appointing a foreign coach, bouyed by the success of people like Arsene Wenger in the PL, and Johann Cruyff's name is very much to the fore.

I now strongly suspect that KK offered to go after Euro2000 and was persuaded to stay by the FA.

The most disturbing part of Lovejoy's article suggests that not only have the FA done some contingency planning for a replacement, there has even been some preliminary discussion on KK's severance package! His remaining contract is worth ca. #2million, but a figure nearer #1 million has been 'suggested' as compensation - compensation for what precisely? This suggests that yesterday's episode may not have been as spontaneous as we may have been lead to believe, and if true is sick-making in the extreme.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2000

I don't necessarily think that is the case Clarky.....

I think most 'sane and normal' football supporters can see and will admit that England fall far short of world beaters.....however the press haven't yet caught onto that and it is them who whip things up with their jingoistic headlines etc and the braindead moronic lager louts who pass themselves off as football fans take their crap as gospel.

Now I am the eternal optimist.....I know that England aren't gonna beat the world, but everytime they play I want and hope they are gonna win that particular match.....but I'm also a realist and if they do win I'm over the moon, if they don't then I as sick as the preverbial parrot, but the press seem to think we have a divine right to beat everyone......and that is not just football, it happens in cricket (we've beaten the Windies so we can beat anyone) in Rugby and now no doubt in boxing, rowing, some athletics, cycling, show jumping and every other sport we won a medal in at the Olympic games.

When will the Press learn......we are average at most sports but we do not excell particularly in any (other than snooker and that;'s not a sport, its a pub game), certainly not for long periods of time anyway.....yeah, we may knock 'em dead in certain area's for a coulple of years, but then everyone else learns the rules, gets their teams together and then they come and whip our arses at them.

OK that's it....rant over.....I'm now going for a rest and rub down with the Sporting Life.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2000

Oh flippin` heck! I go away for one day - miss one England game (unheard of for me) - and look what`s happened! Keegan has toppled of the pedestal I had him on - England were rubbish - and the crowd were despicable!

I totally agree with Clarky, Softie and Pilgrim - they`ve already said everything that has gone through my mind since I heard about it. (:o|

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2000

KK's temperament, UK lager louts & the gutter press - I'm only surprised at how regularly you all express your surprise.

As if supporting NUFC wasn't enough. You masochists !!

:o))

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2000

After the booing of the German anthem I turned over and watched the Solheim Cup.

I don't care that England lost. I agree with Softie's sentiments about the terrible prospect of England fans in Japan.

I don't agree that Keegan was wrong to walk out after the game. It won't make a scrap of difference to Wednesday's match and I can fully understand his wanting to get away from the shitbags of the press.

As to a successor? I don't care much for international football but it seems we need a man who the press and fans can hate so I'll go for John Gregory.
Can't honestly see why we need a foreigner. There is only one foreign manager that works with predominantly English players and that is Alex Ferguson who has previously stated that if he took the England job he'd want them to lose!
In all honesty YBR is the only one I'd have in there but the FA can't have him.

-- Anonymous, October 09, 2000

The biggest problem England has is a lack of great players. We can only speculate on whether most of the team are World Class because they almost never come up against World Class players. The Man United players play in the CL so they are as close as we get to world class. Compare with Holland and France where the players almost all play abroad.

-- Anonymous, October 09, 2000

Regarding England supporters, the general behaviour of the masses at Wembley is the very reason I don't care whether we get international games at SJP. Do we really think these people will stay in Brent while Team England tour the country?

-- Anonymous, October 09, 2000