Why are pollies so stupid?

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I almost miss this question. On the old forum, it seemed like this query was posed on a weekly basis. This is why Spain's question on hoarding versus stockpiling is rather disingenuous. Frankly, most of the "pollies" didn't care about the personal economic decisions of others. What business is it of mine if you want to buy Petromax lanterns or plastic pink flamingoes? In general, I think "pollies" reacted negatively to the suggestion they were flaming idiots for not stockpiling. While the "why are pollies" question is no longer asked directly, there is still a lingering suggestion by unreconstructed "doomers" that the "pollies" were foolish to not prepare. Remember "DGIs" and "DWGIs?"

This is an extension of the "true believer" approach of some Y2K pessimists. In fairness, there were some "attack pollies" who ridiculed the Y2K doomsayers. Most Y2K optimists, however, simply wanted a decent discussion. This was difficult, in part due to the fierce conviction of some "doomers."

What was so compelling about preparing for a Y2K catastrophe? What was it about Y2K that made it difficult for people to reconsider their position?

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 06, 2000

Answers

You said, What was so compelling about preparing for a Y2K catastrophe? What was it about Y2K that made it difficult for people to reconsider their position?

Change the word "Y2K" to "earthquake" for your answer. No one in recent memory has NEEDED their earthquake supplies in SoCal, but that doesn't mean having them is foolish (the risk at any given time is low, but the stakes are high).

I'd think for someone who is NOT an expert in the field, when .gov prepares for a problem and FEMA says to be prepared for a week or two, one would be prudent to do so as well on a personal level. Personally, I'd say that between two hypothetical people who don't really understand the true technical details behind the problem, I'd say preparing for a problem is more prudent than saying "it won't happen" and doing nothing else.

At this point this topic has kind of been beat to death though, I doubt if many people will change their positions.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), October 06, 2000.


Slow day again down at city hall Decker?

Doomers attacked by the "attack" pollies were selfish insane twits. Folks who would cheer news their utility was behind and probably would tank come the CDC need to be exposed for the looney bins they are. A Cory Hamasaki who looked forward to the elderly freezing to death due to no heat from some wacky Y2k catastrophe. Screw these kooks.

Ken you f**ked up, you tried to reason with extremists. You spent your time discussing silliness with isolated yahoos. About a problem 3 decades old which had to be addressed by some and was. Horrible truth is Y2k was little more than overblown baloney.

Maybe a better questions are why an Ed "I want to sit next to Roger Ebert" Yardeni still even listened to? Where is the numbers bozo Capers Jones? the Nazi Greg Caton? How is it possible these types, to this day are even given any listen? What is it in the listener they appeal to?

Are most ready to be Free? Can they handle the power the internet offers? are we up to the opportunity?

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), October 06, 2000.


"No one in recent memory has NEEDED their earthquake supplies in SoCal, but that doesn't mean having them is foolish (the risk at any given time is low, but the stakes are high)."

Have to disagree. The risk of an earthquake at any given time in So. Cal. is very high.

"What was so compelling about preparing for a Y2K catastrophe?"

Mad Max wannabe syndrome. There's something appealing about thinking one is smart enough to survive a catastrophe that one expects most will perish from.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), October 06, 2000.


Frank,

I wonder if earthquake preparation has a forum like the old TB 2000. If so, are the proponents of earthquake "preps" as strident as last year's Y2K pessimists? Personally, I have never been berated for not taking earthquakes seriously enough.

Long before Y2K, I had the ubiquitous FEMA/Red Cross preps. I mentioned this fact on the old forum. The serious "doomers" condemned my obviously inadequate preps. I'm not sure if you were a regular participant in the old forum. I was and saw people preparing for Y2K with an almost religious zeal. This wasn't throwing some canned food and a jug of water in the pantry. This was stockpiling firearms, ammunition, nonhybrid seeds, nitrogen-sealed grain, etc.

With all due respect, Frank, people were way more wound up about Y2K than about any natural disaster. Why?

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 06, 2000.


DP,

It must be easy in your world of black and white. You absolve the mindless attacks of people like "Jimmy Bagga Donuts" and condemn all Y2K pessimists as "selfish insane twits." News flash: Some "doomers" were intelligent, concerned people who simply reached the wrong conclusion about Y2K. Some "pollies" offered little more than mindless personal attacks.

It is almost always mistake to abandon reason. The profane tirades of "debunkers" like Charles Reuben actually undermined the "polly" position.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 06, 2000.



Ken:

For one thing, preparation was kind of fun. It was like building a treehouse or a cardboard box fort as a kid. And it was especially addictive to those with a collector or packrat mentality.

For me, there was always a small voice demanding that I justify all expenses, though. Could I eventually use this if circumstances didn't decline? How likely? How soon? This limited me to simply buying things ahead of time that I knew I purchased regularly as it is. And expensive items like the wood stove obligate me to heat with wood for many years to come, which is fine with me.

I find it impossible to imagine that the true believers didn't WANT major changes at some level. Not just the lifetime losers who wanted all the successful people reduced to their level, though there were some of these. But doomers were also overrepresented among most single-issue groups. Creationists and other religious nuts, environmental fanatics, tax protesters and other anti-government headcases.

Finally, I think there was a group (my group) of Absurdly Cautious People -- those who could afford to go overboard stockpiling, and couldn't see any good reason NOT to, since it will all be consumed in due course anyway and is purchased on sale. All we're out is the space to store it, which isn't all that much.

I see this last group as *qualitatively* different. They saw themselves as hedging their bets, whereas the fanatics didn't even see a bet so much as a certainty which just happened to coincide with their convictions and desires. My speculation is that once you get a whiff of the intoxicating possibility that whatever you really detest about reality might go away, rational evaluation becomes intensely undesirable. For the fanatics, y2k was a purely emotional issue. For the Cautious People, preparation permitted a more objective viewpoint; they could change their mind as the evidence mounted.

But changing your mind is easy. Changing your *desires* borders on impossible. I think when we argued that the evidence overwhelmingly indicated manageable problems, we were telling the environmentalists that pollution would continue, telling the tax nuts they'd still have to pay taxes, telling the religious fanatics that society wouldn't be remade in the image of God, telling the losers that the old order would carry on with them still on the bottom. Indirectly, we were undermining goals the doomies wouldn't relinquish. Even reality itself can't do that, much less mere stupid pollies.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), October 06, 2000.


Ken:

I think "stupid" is really to harsh a term for the pollies, after much reflection. For the great, vast majority of people who did not show any interest in the Y2K issue, probably "disinterested" is the right term. For those who did take an interest, but rejected out of hand any notion that the world as they knew it could be anything other than what they had always known in their short life time, probably "ignorant" would be a better fit. For those who studied the Y2K problem and reached the (correct) conclusion that it was going to be a non-event, yet did nothing to prepare for the possibility they might be wrong, "reckless" would be more on target.

Now, in the case of CPR, who left his realtor biz, giving up $200K of income so he could devote two years to his frothing Y2K de-bunkery that convinced nobody of anything ... yeah, "stupid" works.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 06, 2000.


For one thing, preparation was kind of fun. It was like building a treehouse or a cardboard box fort as a kid. And it was especially addictive to those with a collector or packrat mentality.

^^^^hee hee, now I understand me...I am of the 'packrat' mentality.

This could also explain why I still have 'stuff' in my basement. The one thing which STILL comes in handy is the Kero heater, and the stash of kero to go with it....BTW, my stash is NOT in the house. :-0

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), October 06, 2000.


For those who studied the Y2K problem and reached the (correct) conclusion that it was going to be a non-event, yet did nothing to prepare for the possibility they might be wrong, "reckless" would be more on target.

Did you prepare for a "10?" If not, do you believe you were "reckless" for not preparing for a "10?"

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), October 06, 2000.


Excellent analysis, Flint. Preparation is an fascinating intellectual challenge. The "man/woman against the elements" theme is quite popular in literature. I have enjoyed survival fiction like "Robinsone Crusoe," "Follow the River," and "Lucifer's Hammer." I suppose many of us wonder how we might fare in a world turned upside down.

I also wonder if there wasn't a connection between Y2K survivalism and the apocalyptic tradition of Christianity. Many of the most serious pessimists seemed rather religious.

I agree that some relatively normal people were swept up in the Y2K "hysteria." Most seemed to temper their view of Y2K as we passed the supposed critical dates. The true believers hung in till the very end. What surprises me (a bit) is how confident the faithful were.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 06, 2000.



Decker please,

Look no kidding mistakes in the supposed style of discussion(used very loosely here) were made. Understand two things please. One, the fact the folks who were RIGHT, were outnumbered almost COMPLETELY. Two, Y2k was a complete and utter bust using anyones definition. No excuse for the silliness, but there were reasons. May appear (was) juvenile but look at what was being sold, worldwide collapse from a ridiculous computing issue. MILLIONS of folks dying and these Doomer nuts were applauding? come-on open a damn window friend.

One does not "reach" a wrong conclusion regards Y2k using any form of reasoning worth a crap,MHO-lol. Again, this reasoning was not slightly off, the worryworts were not even in the same reality, is this ever going to sink in? Many fooled have not the ability to place proper weight, or place things into proper perspective, just like here on this thread and your retort I suspect.

The "debate" was based on fundamental blunders of logic. More importantly it was based in direct opposition to fundamental truths about the way the world works and human nature.

BTW, I agree with you rational, intelligent, civil proceedings are preferable, who wouldn't but the wackos and fud merchant whores? What you need to try and understand is folks like us supposed "attack pollies" represent the the majority really. The KIA ads is the window into all that. There was no "debate", sorry to tell you that.

It was the internet Ken, we learn and evolve even if Charlie refuses.

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), October 06, 2000.


one other tidbit to toss into your understanding basket is this.

Just as there were levels of Doomerism, they was also with Polliness (new word write it down). Stephen Poole was not CPR or Doc Paulie. Mitch Radcliffe was not Doc Paulie. In fact I was in an even smaller camp that included maybe Tom Chittum and Super Polly. We weren't buying the crude on any scale beyond normal risks faced every bloody day. We accepted the growing list of Y2k failures and said--so what? where is the beef? how in the hell does ANY of it really matter?

Many Pollies were in the "it is getting done" camp, the Free Market will meet the challenge group. *I* sided with the notion it is NEVER done and it will never "be done" cause that the way it is and who cares? why does it all of a sudden matter if all the damn ducks are in some row?

I think this distiction be made. I was bagging on Peter de Jager in 1998, who else was?

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), October 06, 2000.


Hmmm, if I may I'd like to extend your question. How does one prepare for a 10? And further, why does one prepare for the probability of .00001% of an event occurring?

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 06, 2000.

What's up Doc?

Would you please explain the Chittum/race war angle to me?

Thanks muchly -

-- flora (***@__._), October 06, 2000.


BTW Ken,

Most of us are stoopid, or at least majorly bored to all hell. Is there nothing else us intelligent folks can do but spend time here doing basically nothing but babbling about squat?

oh but sooo addicting this here internet thingee.

I go now, bye bye.

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), October 06, 2000.



flora,

ah I don't know. But then again beyond Y2k I think Tom C many bottles short of sane(as most here think I am, lol), go figure.

anyhow I gots to go check and see if Charlie's gasoline prognostication has hit the pumps here in Vegas, see ya later.

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), October 06, 2000.


>> I almost miss this question. On the old forum, it seemed like this query was posed on a weekly basis. <<

A complete discussion of this question will be issued in the forthcoming documentary movie, Y2K: The Glory Years, a gripping analysis of the intellectual death struggle over the Y2K computer bug. Narration by Ken Decker. Guest appearances by Flint, Ed Yourdon and CPR.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), October 06, 2000.


KD, you said,

With all due respect, Frank, people were way more wound up about Y2K than about any natural disaster. Why?

Easy enough. Y2K had a definite timeline attached to it, "disasters" in a hypothetical sense don't, allowing people to procrastinate indefininately. OTOH if you don't think people don't "stock up" IN A FRENZY similar to Y2K you've never been back East when the whether reports show a MAJOR storm rolling in.

Again, selling you're house and quitting your job would probably have been excessive, but preparing for a disaster? Maybe I'm missing whatever point it is you were trying to make.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), October 06, 2000.


What business is it of mine if you want to buy Petromax lanterns or plastic pink flamingoes?

How about a Coleman lantern AND plastic pink flamingoes? Plastic pink flamingoes are the in thing here, in fact I even have a few resin alligators and a wooden egret. My yard is a veritable Al Bundy wonderland.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 06, 2000.


Oops,

Make "whether" "weather" :-(

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), October 06, 2000.


In fact I was in an even smaller camp that included maybe Tom Chittum and Super Polly.

The truth begins to surface. Doc, please explain why your Web site used to have a link to Tom Chittum's. Tom's politics appeared to be the kind you can't stand. He was worried about the alleged NWO and about Hispanic immigrants and often spoke to groups some might consider to be racist.

-- (&@&.&), October 06, 2000.


But then again beyond Y2k I think Tom C many bottles short of sane (as most here think I am, lol), go figure.

I hadn't seen your reply when I asked my question.

-- (&@&.&), October 06, 2000.


Frank,

The LAFD made an earthquake prep public TV show that was also put out on video. One thing it recommended was having a backpack BOB in your car, and making contigency plans with your family. They stated that in the event of a major quake, it might take a couple of weeks to commute home - due to fallen overpasses, etc.

Thanks to Y2k, I got my matriarchal sister to do as much preparing down there as I ever will. She put a pair of reading glasses in the car. Period. Not even a bottle of water. {Some of the victims of the Loma Prieta quake would've survived in their cars, if they'd just carried some water with them.} Oh, & she was quite proud in December that she'd bought a whole prep case of wine! Bet it's long gone by now.

-- flora (***@__._), October 06, 2000.


Well, I was "bagging on de Jager" in 1996, but for reasons that may differ from yours. Here was a guy who was OPENLY (on his mail list) ragging on every kind of "Y2K vendor"; bashing them all to hell.

Uh huh. Any of you seen his web site? Know who "funded" it? Yep.....those very same Y2K vendors he bashed to all hell paid $5K and up to be listed there.

What did our beloved Peter de Jager do for a living? Why, he "lectured" on "Y2K problems". At an average of $10K a pop.

Oh, and let's not forget the $50/person subscription fee to his mail list (at over 4K subscribers).

But the Big Bad Consultants were responsible for FUD and needlessly taking your money. Always wondered how on the one hand, he lectured there was this REALLY BIG PROBLEM that HAD TO BE FIXED, but on the other hand (or was it out the other side of his mouth?) he claimed THE VENDORS WERE RIPPING YOU OFF.

I got a bridge for sale.....

Maria, I asked that question how many times over the course of maybe two-plus years -- how does one "Prepare" for "Armageddon"? I never got an answer.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), October 06, 2000.


If we had a psychologist on board, we could make some hay with control, midlife crisis, & mortality issues.

But no, instead you're stuck with silly lil' me.

-- flora (***@__._), October 06, 2000.


flora, you say that like it's a bad thing ;-)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), October 06, 2000.


flora,

Actually, I'm rather thankful for the whole Y2K business for making me take disaster preparation seriously. I've got about an hour's commute each way, and believe me, in a natural disaster that'd be a long walk. But now at least I've got a can of raviolis, some water, a Swiss army knife, etc. in the car for the hike (as does my wife in hers). And I know that at home, the family is prepared for a couple of weeks without society's help.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), October 06, 2000.


Doc Paulie states that the "doomers attacked by the 'attack' pollies were stupid insane twits."

I was attacked in the strongest terms by CPR and Mr. Polly for no reason at all, when I first visited the debunkers forum in relation to something that nobody had been arguing about.

If you think that somehow these two had managed to discern my insane twit nature, how about Helen, who really got it from CPR. I don't think anyone would have a problem with her nature, and I suspect there are many cases like that where the team of CPR and Mr. Polly operated in totally brainless fashion.

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), October 06, 2000.


Peter:

You misunderstand. In DP's World of Amazing Hindsight, anyone who disagreed with him was a stupid insane twit by default, and deserved any and all attacks just as surely as Helen deserved invitations to mud wrestle. In the battle for hearts and minds, comportment is for weenies.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), October 06, 2000.


My first reply to Peter Errington at Debunking Y2k.

Course Peter came looking to get DRILLED and any value offered was missed while feeding on the butt slapping he demanded. Talk about "hind-sight", geesh.

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), October 07, 2000.


"I suspect there are many cases like that where the team of CPR and Mr. Polly operated in totally brainless fashion."

Isn't there some speculation that Mr. Polly is really one of Lady Logic's alter egos?

Incidentlly does anyone think that LL might make an appearance next week in Las Vegas. If she does, a few of us know what she looks like (or at least what she used to look like) so it would be interesting...

-- LL Fan (-@where.is.LL.now?), October 07, 2000.


It brings back memories that are part of my childhood. I grew up in the eastern mountains in a small town. It was an old town. Founded while we were still a British Colony. We had a town square with benches on the green. On hot summer days, folks would sit on the green and talk. I remember some of the old folks [as a child old has little meaning]. Two or three were veterans of WWI. One was a veteran of the Spanish American war. Bob was younger. He was large and strong, but not particularly bright. At 15 he had illegally joined the military in WWII. He was one of the surviving rangers who scaled the cliffs on D-day. He won the CMO and was profoundly changed by the experience. He never held a job and was wheeled out for all of the memorial day ceremonies. There was an older woman who came from time to time. Her name was Anita [no I am not making this up]. She served as a nurse with the Italian forces in WWI. I remember sitting there in the heat and listening to their stories; same stories over and over. I enjoyed them and they are part of who I am.

This is a little like that. Keep it up.

Best wishes,,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 07, 2000.


To Doc Paulie:

You couldn't refute al-d with the kind of mystical crap you serve up. So blow it out your fanny, Bubbles.

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), October 07, 2000.


I remember when the big hurricane hit the Carolinas last year. If memory serves me correctly, there were a few Y2K preparers who were hit hard and they were thankful they had stashed away for Y2K. One preparer found out how important water was, she discovered she didn't store near enough. Year after year when a hurricane is in the forecast, stores are emptied by last minute "hoarders." However, one never needs to worry about such things anymore, Al Gore will certainly and single-handed save you from all harm.

-- ~~~~~~ (~~~~~@~~~~~.vcom), October 07, 2000.

-- ~~~~~~ (~~~~~@~~~~~.vcom):

Yep, I have noticed that things have gotten slow on EZboard. Welcome.

Best Wishes,,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 07, 2000.


>>>>>>stupid insane twits<<<<<<<<<< Yep that be you Peter Errington. We try and you always blow it. Folks try and you sh*t on them. You would rather defend an Old git and pooh- pooh blantant censorship doing so on a damn webboard paid for out of my freaking pocket which allows losers like you a place to whine.

Encapsulation is not supposed to be a lifestyle.

Join me over at Contrails 2000

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), October 07, 2000.


To Doc Paulie:

When I spent time at the debunkers forum early this year, I was able to argue with some over there and keep it civil (e.g. Patricia and Anita). Ohers were simply impossible and I did wind up shitting all over them. The only regret I have, regarding shitting on people, was that I came down too hard on "zzzz", for which I later apologized.

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), October 08, 2000.


"zzzz"?????? Sounds like the dude was just talking in his sleep...

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 08, 2000.

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