I know we all have off days, but what the hell is wrong with people? I just came from a party where I sat between two supposedly intelligent people who nearly got into a bitch slapping session over who knew the most about the Katabatick winds in Antarctica. It ended up degenerating into an intellectual 'Your Mama' contest. Is it too much to expect a little civility between grown adults? Can we all assume we're of reasonable intelligence and gloat in silence on the ride home? Don't even get me started on how people treat each other on this here Internet. How do you handle these situations? I tend to sit in a corner and hug myself until the headache goes away, but I just know there's a better way to handle this... Any thoughts?

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

Answers

Very timely question given the fact that 3 years ago I wouldn't go along with embezzling my company and when I went to HR for help, I discovered in retrospect that the demonic boss I had was/is *very* friendly with her. My bosses have been verbally abusing me every day for the last three years. I try not to take it personally, but 3 years is a lot of physical deterioration. I have an attorney, but she says its abuse, not discrimination so we don't have a case. My company is so pathological we've lost half the people we had 3 years ago. They flat out told me they don't have any respect for me because anyone else would of quit with the abuse. But, duh, I'm a single mom and I am *not* independently wealthy. It is bizarre. Since then, I've had two more bosses who feel the need to continue the trend. Therefore, I decided the best course for my health is 3 months of disability. Hence, the home email address and the more blunt honesty. Hi everyone, welcome to the real, bitter, scared and jaded me. It is NOT always true that if you work hard and do a good job you will be rewarded for it. Sorry to burst your bubble, you puppies out there.

A guy friend of mine has a philosophy. Half the males (and let us not be sexist, we can include women) are just born assholes. The other half are nice. However, nice people are shit on. So half of those people become assholes as a survival technique and only a quarter remain nice, compassionate and caring. I consider myself in the remaining quarter. However, it does not come without a price, I'm a bit insane right now. I do have good news, I have time to organize my place well. And, I've been spending time with amazing and supportive women. I also went to a science seminar and realized that I could still think creatively which was quite a relief.

Please don't make any judgements about me, ask me any public questions or wonder why I haven't done some obvious things. I have, but don't feel a public forum is the right venue to go into all the gory details. May your days be free of psychos or at least have someone stable and supportive in them to balance it out. Thanks for letting me "come out of the closet".

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

Vicki, I think the 'may your days be free of psychos' sums it up quite nicely.

There ARE people out there with the power to ruin your life, and sometimes there is no defence, and no recourse. Sometimes, however hard you try, happiness is all about not being in a certain place at a certain time. Luck, effectively. Which is why I find karma, fate, and destiny to be quite insulting concepts.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

Shannon asked: "Is it too much to expect a little civility between grown adults? "

Evidently, yes. The behavior I see from adults these days is just appalling. Rudeness, nastiness and general boorishness abound. And that's just during the commute to work. What goes on in the office is even worse.

My reaction to all this varies with the situation. If someone's displaying boorish behavior on the roadway, I let it go. If someone's nasty to me on the Internet, I generally let it go, because there are no winners in a total thermonuclear flame war. If someone's particularly nasty to me in person, I may give them a snarky reply, or I may just turn my back on him or her. Work situations are the worst - if it's a senior person being nasty, sometimes you just have to suck it up. I've been treated badly by superiors more than once, to my professional detriment. It's not easy, and it's not going to get better any time soon. I just try to take deep breaths and move on.

Off-topic: Shannon, you have no idea how much I'd give to be at a party where the arguments were about something other than sports. Katabatick winds in Antarctica? Whom do you party with, anyway?

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

There's the everyday meanness/lack of civility -- cutting people off, being rude to servicepeople/customers, not using basic manners -- that I think is due to people being generally self-absorbed... you know, it's just too much effort to think of how your lack of courtesy might affect others. Everyone's guilty of this at some time or another.

But downright meanness, like personal attacks and put-downs, often seems (to me) to come from insecurity. The Mean Person is so insecure about their own intellect/personality/abilities and they seem to confuse meanness with confidence, wit, authority and superior intelligence. "Ooh, lookit how CLEVER and SHARP and POWERFUL I am, because I called that lady I was arguing with a fat cow, even though her physical appearence has nothing to do with the subject at hand... I showed her!" Gain the upper hand by being mean before someone can be mean to you or something....

You asked how to handle it, Shannon? Beats the hell out of me. My brother can be downright mean at times, but, going back to grade- school mentality, if you are intimidated by the Mean People, then they "win." So I have no problems either 1) asking Sugerbear to tone it down or 2) ceasing the contact until he ceases the meanness. Ignoring it or laughing it off condones it. As for meanness on the Internet/public forums...? There was a recent sitch on a message board community I've participated in for years where, after years of ignoring jibes/problematic attitudes from a select few posters, a number of the participants left, significantly altering the community. I still miss the participation of these people, even though I wholey respect their decisions to leave. I usually prefer the attitudes at places run by Wing Chun and Glark (Hissyfit, et al), where if someone does nothing but post mean, unconstructive and/or overtly stupid things, they get booted. Quickly. I know it's controversial and not a perfect system, but it prevents a lot of trolling.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

Whew - what a question! I know the quotient of general asshole-ness has gone up considerably lately - having some sort of "rage" (road, airline, consumer) is all the rage now. Is it competition? The UNREAL expectation that some people believe they should have INSTANT gratification? Overblown egos and a sense of entitlement that is staggering? Some of the BIG stuff (i.e., ABUSE) is, plainly, psychotic behavior... the more you hold out and resist, the more the assholes must dump on you. And, not only the BIG stuff ranks on the asshole scale - what about the day-to-day annoyances - people standing/pushing SO close to you in line you could swear you just had a gyno exam; being body slammed as you are trying to enter a door because a-hole behind you needs to go first? not to mention the cell phone yammerers, drivers who don't believe in turn signals, yellow lights or basic courtesy... Curling in a fetal position, rocking ourselves, only goes so far. Not sure what the answer is (confronting some only leads to ... well... an up close and personal encounter with someone nasty) - perhaps we need a repellent of some sort - a grown up version of cootie spray?

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

Well, I'm sorry my forum can't be all things to all people.

I don't think it was just the posts of a few that made people leave Mediarama. I can't speak for anyone but myself, obviously, but the way several people reacted to the "mass exodus" said a lot about the way Mediarama had become for me.

I decided, when I started this forum, that I'd follow Danny's policy by not booting anyone. Wing Chun's way works well, too. The problem is that I'm not as tolerant as she is. If I were to start booting people every time they got on my nerves, I wouldn't have many readers left.

If there's one thing I've learned from watching other forums, it's that there's no way in hell you can please everyone. I could boot people and have them start anti-Gwen boards (see what Wing Chun gets for trying to keep the annoying people off hers) or I can let people post what they want and watch them form "cliques" and fight with each other. (See Mediarama.) I can't force you all to like each other and I'm not going to waste my time trying. Make the best of what's there or find something else to do.

If you like this board, that's great. I love having you here. If you like Mediarama or Hissyfit better, I'll try not to cry too hard when you post there (or anywhere else) instead. If you think you'd be a better moderator than I am, please don't let me stop you from starting your own forum. I'm not forcing anyone to participate on this one.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

I'm not sure what the best response is to rude or mean people. Generally, I try to imagine that I am Jackie Onasis, and be cool and polite...kind of above it. I tend to call them on it as nicely as possible...like if someone makes a snarky comment, or gives me a nasty look, I make direct eye contact and say something like "Oh, I'm sorry, was there something you wanted to say to me?" I try not to have an edge in my voice, but sound genuinly interested and concerned about what they have to say. They usually look really embarassed and walk away. Before I knew what trolls were, I used to get pretty worked up by rudness on the Internet. Not anymore. If they take over a forum I hang out in, I leave. If they show up on one of my lists, I stuff 'em. That's just my style though. I don't mean to imply that others should have the same reaction.

Trees

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

It's so funny that you try to imagine you're Jackie O, in my family we call it "being Grace Kelly".

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

my response to asshole-edness is usually just to ignore it. This is assuming I'm not having an Asshole Day myself. (I have days where I'm just as much of an ass as anyone else. I like to think they're few and far between though.) It's party of my "Never wrestle with a pig" philosophy (you know: you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it..) Assholes on forums are inevitable, but they're doubly good to ignore because all they want is the attention. That's why they're *posting it in a public forum* as opposed to sending venomous person to person emails like any normal human being. :) (kidding) And besides, that's why God gave me a good scrolling mousey.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

oops, and I was going to add: I had no idea what trolling was til probably 2 weeks ago. Sigh.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

I love that there are other people out there who resort to role playing to help them deal with some of the people out there suffering from cranial-rectal inversion.

Another role model I like to keep in mind is Dutchess the cat from the Aristocats. She's one classy lady. ;-)

Trees

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

You know, I'm never surprised when people are assholes. I'm always surprised when someone goes out of their way to be nice. To say someting nice, or to do something nice, or to say something witty during a tense moment between two people. My grandmother (who was Irish) had a sign over the inside of her front door she said she got from HER father. It said in corny needlepoint "Beyond this place there be Serpents.) I later learned in college that was what ancient cartographers would write on the edge of the maps they were making, because, quite literally, they didn't know what was beyond a certain point. (Otherwise they would have drawn it in.) I save someone's life every week because they do something extremely stupid and rude in an automobile and if I wasn't alert, we would end up in a wreck or at least a fender bender. I expect people to be stupid, rude, self- centered and demanding and when they're not, I remember it. The other shit I blow off, because it's just part of the scenery. I will NOT tolerate someone being rude to my wife. If you make it personal, you're endangering your own serenity, but I can be a most accomplished asshole. Most goobers you have to deal with are amateurs without imagination. And Gwen, I think you're a fine moderator.

-- Anonymous, October 06, 2000

I think that the way some people act is considered funny or witty by some but assholish behavior by others, and when someone questions that behavior they are considered smart or being a stand-up kind of person...or an asshole. It all depends on what angle you are looking at the situation.

-- Anonymous, October 06, 2000

Tracey
I wish I could say it was my usual crowd, but it was a party my sister in law dragged me to. There was a psychic there, and she kept saying "People, I'm not on the job tonight. I don't care what your future holds." Teh party had a sort of snobby elitist vibe to it that I don't hang well with. I usually run with the library crowd I knew when I first moved to Seattle, debaters yes, but tolerant. I guess that't the key word for me. You can argue all you want, but as in any good debate there are rules. At the very least don't resort to name calling or nasty game playing. I call that assholish behavior from any angle.

-- Anonymous, October 06, 2000

Tracey
I wish I could say it was my usual crowd, but it was a party my sister in law dragged me to. There was a psychic there, and she kept saying "People, I'm not on the job tonight. I don't care what your future holds." The party had a sort of snobby elitist vibe to it that I don't hang well with. I usually run with the library crowd I knew when I first moved to Seattle, debaters yes, but tolerant. I guess that't the key word for me. You can argue all you want, but as in any good debate there are rules. At the very least don't resort to name calling or nasty game playing. I call that assholish behavior from any angle.

-- Anonymous, October 06, 2000

Low self-esteem, boredom, innately nasty dispositions, hemorrhoids, headaches, bad juju, Friday the 13th, human nature, childhood trauma, immaturity, rudeness, inability to find anything more constructive to do, inability to empathize with others, bullying, insensitivity, heat rash, chromosome miscounts, cornflakes reek of urine, someone cut them off in traffic, because they feel like it, because they are naturally obnoxious, to get attention, because they are depressed, because they are angry at you, because they are angry at someone else, because they don't have the intelligence or motivation to be constructive and thus choose to be destructive, because nothing is good on TV, because the moon is in Scorpio, because their mommies didn't love them, because they got picked last for kickball, because someone looked at them funny in the grocery store, because it is easier than trying to get along with everyone else and find common interests and similarities, because they don't know how to be anything BUT an asshole, because they feel like it, because they got tarrtar sauce on their Filet O'Fish when they asked for none, because they didn't have a date to the Prom, because they have butt pimples, because they think it is funny, because [insert your pet theory here]...it doesn't really metter WHY.

-- Anonymous, October 06, 2000

I'll be as mellow as the next guy most of the time. But if someone is rude or pissy with me I usually ignor them for the child they are. I just pass on by. But if they did it on purpose then watch out. I sing them the old refrain from the Who that goes like this, "Who the fuck are you"...well something like that. It makes them wish they could find a hole to crawl into. Bubba knows what happens when someone is rude to my wife or family. Most of the time you can ignor the assholes around you and just roll your eyes. But sometimes it takes a good command of the english language (spanish works good too for some reason) and sign language to put them in their place. Don't be afraid to blowup at them. They deserve it. James

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Being an asshole is like the flu. It gets passed from person to person even though nobody wants it. As you go through the day the little ache get's a little bigger until by the end of the day you feel like shit. There is medicine for it though. Just be nice and realize that the person who is spreading this sickness around usually doesn't know it or could care less. If you just pass on by it won't get you. Just realize that most assholes are like little kids. You just roll your eyes and go about your bussiness. But if they do it on purpose maybe you should spank them. And do it in public. Their embarrasment in front of their peers is usually enough to thwart any retaliation. But don't let it infect you. Most of these assholes don't pay your bills or do your laundry so they have no hold on your emotions. No one can "make" you unhappy. But if they try, just try and ignor them. But don't pass it on. James

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Being an asshole is like the flu. It gets passed from person to person even though nobody wants it. As you go through the day the little ache get's a little bigger until by the end of the day you feel like shit. There is medicine for it though. Just be nice and realize that the person who is spreading this sickness around usually doesn't know it or could care less. If you just pass on by it won't get you. Just realize that most assholes are like little kids. You just roll your eyes and go about your bussiness. But if they do it on purpose maybe you should spank them. And do it in public. Their embarrasment in front of their peers is usually enough to thwart any retaliation. But don't let it infect you. Most of these assholes don't pay your bills or do your laundry so they have no hold on your emotions. No one can "make" you unhappy. But if they try, just try and ignor them. But don't pass it on. Dr. James, surf dude

-- Anonymous, October 07, 2000

Jeez, James. I gotta stop drinking so much at night...I keep seeing double on this post. What service were you in? Maybe we can entertain the ladies with some "There I wuz an' this is no shit" stories.

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2000

There I was, pinned down in the mud and..... I don't like to think about it. James

-- Anonymous, October 08, 2000

Sorry I sounded so pissy above, y'all. I think I was suffering from forum OD or something.

Bubba, if you want to start a topic about your military experience, feel free. That stuff always interests me. I don't know how many people here would be able to share those sorts of stories, though.

-- Anonymous, October 09, 2000

I was trying to be funny, Gwen. I really don't think this is the forum for it. A lot of it would be hard to relate to. There are some really funny stories about bizarre happenings in foreign bars with girls who only speak broken English that I'll contribute at moments that seem appropriate to what's being said on the forums.

-- Anonymous, October 09, 2000

By the way Gwen, a friend from Spokane informed me that the real reason that Americans are such assholes is because we're afraid we'll be mistaken for Canadians if we're not. I only tell you this because you're heading out for the Great White North.

-- Anonymous, October 10, 2000

That is an extremely plausible theory. When I first met Wing Chun (my boss at MightyBigTV.com) she was so quiet. I asked her, "Are you angry at us, or are you just being Canadian?"

I'm trying to decide if I'm gonna wave to everybody on the street again this time. Paul's going with me, and he's good at that stuff. Maybe I'll just compete with him to see which of us can get the most return waves. Yeah, that sounds like fun.

-- Anonymous, October 10, 2000

We had a "progressive" guidance counsellor when I was in middle school (this was in the 70's) and she was all into "transactional analysis" and the like.

James' comment about how "being an asshole is like having the flu" was explained to us wee ones as "giving other people brown stamps" or "sharing cold pricklies". Conversely, if you passed on something positive, you were "sharing gold stamps" or "warm fuzzies". (I still hear the phrases "warm fuzzies" and, erm, "you're being a prick", actually.)

The rest of it, delivered with great earnestness, was probably extremely helpful to our guidance counsellor in her personal life, but 10 and 11 year olds have a hard time relating to "parent", "adult" and "child" modes of communication. After all, we were, of course, all children. Being told that communicating from a "child" POV was bad...that was a bit too much to expect from us. And, of course, all that was just code for Superego, Ego and Id stuff anyway. Supposedly you were not supposed to ever come from any place but an "Adult" place. It got fairly grim and intensive.

I did like the pictures of warm fuzzies and cold pricklies that our workbooks had, and the concept that you reap what you sow and what you put out you get back and like begets like...that concept was a good one to have brought home, even if it was smothered in TA Talk.

I think it was a short-lived fad, like graphic "Blood! On! The! Highway!" and "Drugs Are BAD, Mmm'kay?" safety films and "shop"/"home ec" classes directed at boys/girls.

-- Anonymous, October 10, 2000