This continues a running debate....

According to "Smarty," sexism is the "Condescending attitude that some men have towards women, believing themselves superior because of their gender. This attitude is shown in miriads of subtle and not so subtle ways. Discriminating on the basis of gender, for what ever reason, when all else is equal or equivalent."

According to Webster's, sexism is "1. prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women. 2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex."

In my opinion, women can be sexist just as African-Americans can be racist. Sexism is much broader than a condescending attitude. As Webster's aptly notes, it is whatever fosters stereotypes of social roles based on gender. For example, divorced men have been penalized by the stereotype that mothers are better parents. This is clearly a sexist assumption.

Let's move on to Smarty's definition of sexual harrassment: "Attempts by a man to dominate a woman with the use of sexual language or physicaly without her conscent. This also takes place in miriad of ways, subtle and obvious. At home and on the job."

For my definiation, I'll borrow from Cornell University. "Sexual harassment involves unwelcome sexual conduct that impacts a term, condition, or privilege of employment or academic standing (e.g., salary, promotion, grade) or unwelcome sexual conduct that unreasonably interferes with an individual's ability to work, learn, or otherwise participate in the services and benefits of institutional activities and programs." While statistically men may be more likely to engage in sexual harassment, it is not a behavior limited solely to men. In fact, men have successfully sued women (and other men) for sexual harassment.

Link

Moving onward:

"Now, with this in mind, KoS's mudwrestling question to women is reflective of himself as to his tastes, gender, manners and whatever else, but not sexist because he does not entend it to be sexist/condescending. He consistantly uses this comment when he means to pay a compliment to a woman. Tacky? Well so what, he certainly isn't the only one according to my standards. But tackyness and vulgarity in itself does not insult the listener, condescention does."

According to "Smarty" a behavior or attitude is not sexist as long as the person has inoffensive intentions. I imagine this same defense has been used by almost everyone who has been confronted on sexual harassment. "I thought she liked flirting with me." "I was only joking about his great butt."

I am the first to agree that sexual harassment codes have become the fodder for witch hunts, particularly in some American universities. As with most human behaviors, there is a common sense middle ground where reasonable people can interact without offending one another. This said, I reject the idea that sexism and sexual harassment is synonymous with male behavior towards women. This road runs both ways.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 04, 2000

Answers

Hopefully the continued link will be off now.

-- (Sheeple@Greener.Pastures), October 04, 2000.

For my definiation, I'll borrow from Cornell University. "Sexual harassment involves unwelcome sexual conduct that impacts a term, condition, or privilege of employment or academic standing (e.g., salary, promotion, grade) or unwelcome sexual conduct that unreasonably interferes with an individual's ability to work, learn, or otherwise participate in the services and benefits of institutional activities and programs." While statistically men may be more likely to engage in sexual harassment, it is not a behavior limited solely to men. In fact, men have successfully sued women (and other men) for sexual harassment

True sexual harrassment DOES happen. I once worked for a steel company as a secretary when one of the men came up from the shop to pick up his check. As I reached through the window to hand it to him, he grabbed my breast. (true story)

When I recoiled in horror, he laughed. I immediately told my bosses who simply 'warned' him.

To me THIS is TRUE harrassment. I did not remain there long. I felt very unsafe. I never followed through on suit, as it was then told to me that it must be constant. I opted not to wait around for the consistancy.

Any others here male/female have any TRUE cases to report?

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), October 04, 2000.

Note that my last sentence in my own definition (not looked up in any dictionary, but according to my perspective and experience) was: Discriminating on the basis of gender, for what ever reason, when all else is equal or equivalent. Which I put there to cover sexism against men too.

-- (smarty@wannabe.one), October 04, 2000.

"According to "Smarty" a behavior or attitude is not sexist as long as the person has no offensive intentions."

You mean, according to your own understanding of what I actually wrote. You don't make a distinction between sexism and sexual harrassment in your post above.

-- (smarty@wannabe.one), October 04, 2000.

Ken,

You ask if women can be sexist? The answer is that anyone that is alive can be sexist.

I, personally, strive to not be a sexist. Everyone at some point in time is sexist. That is part of the battle which women and men have had since humans arrived on this planet. In part, it is nothing more than human nature.

Thinking that a man can do more than a woman, that is sexist. Thinking that women can do more than a man, that is sexist. While I personally am comfortable with the sex that I am, I realize that I have limitations to my physical strength which is less than that of a man. I have no problem with that, as most people that know me in real life can attest. I am comfortable with who and what I am. Some, however do not share my attitude on this subject. But I doubt that this is really what you are addressing.

Have I ever looked at a man's butt? Sure I have, and I don't think that I would be a healthy woman if I didn't. Men look at women, and women look at men. I don't stare at the butt of a man during a meeting, but I have been in meetings where men could not keep their eyes off my breasts.

Sheeple

ps - to anyone that bitches about not having a real e-mail address, the one above is real. Flame away if you wish!

-- (cannotsay45@hotmail.com), October 04, 2000.

OOPS!

Make the above e-mail address cannotsay25@hotmail.com...

Fat Fingers are on the keyboard tonight. :)

-- (cannotsay25@hotmail.com), October 04, 2000.

Q: Can women be sexist?

A: Yes. Anyone can be sexist. More to the point, anyone can act sexist, since it is action that conveys sexism. It isn't exactly a state of being. I really do not give a rip if someone has sexist (or racist or what-have-you) thoughts, if those thoughts never proceed to actions (where "actions" includes speaking).

However, it is important to note that the only place where sexism, racism or other types of objectionable and biased behavior can be eliminated is in laws, policies and institutions. You just can't eliminate it from individuals, no matter how you try. It is a demonstrable fact that the sexism currently embodied in institutions, laws and policies cuts against women far more often than against men.

I figure that's why women complain of sexism more often and are much more likely to notice it or feel it when it is directed against them. Because there is more of it directed against them, and it is more deeply embedded into our social institutions.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), October 04, 2000.

Not even a token male. Not even Alan Alda!

National Officers of NOW

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), October 04, 2000.

I'm not sure I understand the term sexist in this regard. As Smarty noted, it's mixed up with sexual harrassment in the first post to this thread.

I'll relate a few stories SO told me about his youth:

1) He was working for a firm that had him travel on business to New York. While there, he met with the head of something or other [who happened to be a woman.] She asked him to accompany her for drinks after the meeting. She drank too much, and invited him to accompany her home. Once he'd accompanied her home, she invited him inside. He drew the line there. He was fired. No...he didn't report it.

2) He was working at another firm and needed to talk to a radio show hostess. He called to make an appointment with her and she asked him to come to her home. She answered the door naked. He didn't lose his job, but he didn't stay long either.

3) He was invited to the home of a female co-worker. Unbeknownst to him, the coworker had a female roommate. While there, the co-worker said that her roommate and she had always wanted to try a three-some and asked if he was willing. Heh. Okay......he couldn't turn this one down, but he failed at it. His co-worker eventually said, "You're paying more attention to her than you are to me. I'll be waiting for you in the bedroom when you're done."

So what exactly is sexism? I'd always thought it was the tendency to look at the other sex and say, "The only thing you're good for is...", and the list didn't include anything related to the normal sex that occurs between men and women, but included things like "ironing my shirts" or "changing the oil in the car."

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), October 04, 2000.

Sheeple:

I agree most wholeheartedly with you.

I am very feminine (honest, I AM in person) and I like being a woman. Like sheep, I also know my limitations. I could not do concrete work, wouldnt even try, but my sister did. It gave her carpel tunnel working a jackhammer all day.

She is now a maintenance woman. She knows her limitations.

There are many limitations for me being a female, I accept mine as well.

Ken, do you feel we here are sexist because KOS doesnt offend some of us? Do you feel we are wrong to accept his comments bout mudwrestling?

I have always taken his cracks in stride. Would one perhaps suggest to KOS to 'even up' the score by asking some male participants of our board to engage?

hmmm?

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), October 04, 2000.

Are the Kennedy's gun-shy???

Wanna hot tub rassle??? : )))

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), October 04, 2000.

Hey CAPN,,,,,

Why NOT? The weather is Just right for a night wrestle in the hot tub?

Are the kennedy's gun shy? ROFLMAO.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), October 04, 2000.

Nice question Ken.

Was getting a little boring around here.

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), October 04, 2000.

Ken:

For my definiation, I'll borrow from Cornell University. Any comment Anita. :^)

Ken: your trouble is that you are reading from a non-PC version. Cornell is whimpy. I have had to write some of these things. I always go to the University of Oregon. They are the most PC University in the country. If you search their site, you get 14 pages of links on the subject. Here is their policy [if the direct link works].

Sexual Harassment

Cal is a weak second in this area. I wonder where darkwing comes from.

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 04, 2000.

Anita, the stories about your SO would fall in the category of sexual harrassment. Sexism is what you described at the end, i.e., (man to woman)"all your good for is iron my shirt", (woman to man) "all you're good for is...um..." what are men good for anyway? ;)

-- (smarty@wannabe.one), October 04, 2000.

Although I might mention that Cal adds military service status to this list and some add health conditions [specifically mentioning cancer].

Discriminatory harassment is defined as any conduct that either in form or operation unreasonably discriminates among individuals on the basis of age, disability, national origin, race, marital status, religion, gender or sexual orientation,

Those of us that went through the anti-V war demonstrations have added this, although it is now antiquated. Writing these things gets very complicated. I suppose we will have to add riders for alien abduction in the near future.

Best wishes,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 04, 2000.

FYI, I have been a Feminist and a contributor to N.O.W. for over 20 years. I don't agree with many of the things they try nor their efforts for National Legislation which I would rather see come from the Local levels up. Chauvenist pigs should be neutered and any man who violently attacks a woman for sex should be castrated, allowed to live for one year and then executed.

Learn the definitions and try to use them:

http://www.startext.net/homes/rainbow/language.htm

Practical Guide to Non-Sexist Language Manning the space shuttle, manning the phones, showing sportsmanship, practicing penmanship, doing a man-sized job...

...that is the language of a male-centered culture. Such language does not adequately serve our changing society. Enormous changes have been made in our culture and our language has not kept pace. Communication between people must be clear and accurate. Language is changing, creating new words that can change our culture, our society, our humanity. Although this Guide is not comprehensive, it offers suggestions for those who are striving for equality as well as clarity in language. Please e-mail us with additions or suggestions for this guide.

The use of man or mankind to represent humanity collectively is ambiguous since it is not clear whether it means men only or includes women (and children). They imply that the entire species is male. Suggested alternatives:

Example                             
Alternatives
man's achievement...................human achievement


mankind.............................humankind, humanity


manmade.............................manufactured, artificial, 
fabricated, made


manpower............................workpower, human resources, work 
force, staff


manned space flight.................human, with crew, staffed, piloted


unmanned space flight...............mission-controlled, without crew, 
unstaffed, unpiloted


man-hours...........................work hours


manhole.............................conduit, sewer or drain 
hole/opening/access


man the phones......................staff, operate, answer


man-size............................big, large, enormous, etc.


brotherhood of man..................human community


common man..........................average person


familty of man......................human race, civilization


goodwill to man.....................goodwill to 
people/humanity/humans/humankind


layman..............................layperson, nonprofessional, non-
expert, novice


modern man..........................modern humanity

PRONOUNS: The masculine pronoun "he" fails to represent the female half of the species. Shown below are suggested solutions. They have been applied to the sentence "Everyone is expected to do "his" job well."

• Pluralize to avoid gender-specific pronoun:
  "The employees are expected to do their jobs well"
• Rewrite the sentence without the pronoun:
  "Everyone is expected to do the job well."
• Use double pronoun construction:
  "An employee is expected to do her or his job well."
• Use they as singular with indefinite pronouns:
  "Everyone is expected to do their job well."

Most occupational and public office titles date from a time when only men performed these jobs. Contemporary women are involved in all occupations, making sex-labeled titles discriminatory. Occupational titles should describe the job and not the person doing the job.

Example                             
Alternatives
airline steward, -ess..............flight attendant


alderman...........................ward representative, aldermember


anchor man.........................news anchor, anchor


business man.......................business person


chairman...........................chair, head, chairperson


committeeman.......................committee member


congressman........................congressor, representative, 
senator, member of congress


councilman.........................councilmember


craftsman..........................crafter, artisan


draftsman..........................drafter, designer


fisherman..........................fisher, angler


foreman............................supervisor, superintendent


freshman...........................first-year college student, fresh 
student


handyman...........................odd-job worker


journeyman.........................(certified crafter) specify: 
carpenter, metalworker, etc.


landlord...........................owner


lineman............................line installer, line worker


mailman............................mail carrier


maintenance worker.................maintenance worker


newsboy............................newpaper carrier, newspaper vender


newsman............................newscaster, reporter


policeman..........................police officer


repair man.........................repair person


salesman...........................sales representative, salesperson


spokesman..........................spokesperson, speaker


TV Cameraman, -girl................camera operator


workmen............................workers


weatherman, -girl..................weathercaster, reporter, 
meteorologist (if applicable)

Neither sex has a monopoly on jobs or the designations that go with them:

Example                             
Alternatives
lady doctor.........................doctor


woman lawyer........................lawyer


male nurse..........................nurse


meter maid..........................meter attendant


female surgeon......................surgeon


housewife...........................homemaker

Note that the word woman is not an adjective. Likewise, the word man is not an adjective. Hence, it is incorrect to say: "woman driver", even when the gender of the driver is important. The correct form would be "female driver".

There are only two jobs that are gender specific. As attorney Florynce Kennedy points out, "Neither sex has a monopoly on jobs... except in the case of wet nurses and sperm donors."

When the description involves titles, jobs and marital status, treat women and men in a parallel manner:

Example                              
Alternatives
man and wife.........................husband and wife


James Jones and Mrs. Jones...........James and Mary Jones


Dr. John Jones and


  Mrs. Mary Smith


  (both are doctors).................Drs. John Jones and Mary Smith

"Man" in the middle: There are some compound words with the syllable "man" at the center.
Here are some alternatives:

Example                              
Alternatives
craftsmanship........................craftship, artisanship


sportsmanship........................sportship


penmanship...........................script, handwriting


workmanlike..........................skillful, well executed


Workman's Compensation...............Worker's Compensation

Some phrases exclude females by assuming that allreaders or listeners are male. Write and speak to include both sexes when applicable:

Example                             Alternatives
black tie gala......................semiformal


convention goers and                convention goers and
  their wives.......................their spouses


you and your wife...................you and your spouse


farmer's wives......................spouses of farmers

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), October 04, 2000.

That was great information, Charlie. Whenever I was asked to estimate a project's length on the job, I would say, "I think this can get done in 120 woman-hours." Okay...I varied the number to fit the job. I like your source better, although it wouldn't provoke the smiles I got discussing woman-hours.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), October 04, 2000.

Sure Chuck, and while we're at it why don't we just erase everyone's penis and tits?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 04, 2000.

No Ken, women cannot be sexist, they are perfect in every way.

-- Phil Donahue (what@dumb.ass), October 04, 2000.

Well Unk,

I suppose that could work,procreation would be out of the question but female orgasms would survive/thrive?

Who owns half the property and ALL the..... ; )

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), October 04, 2000.

Z:

I may be tacky, self-centered, and shallow, but I have NO comment.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), October 04, 2000.

Geez,

You put it like it's a bad thing.

Got biology?

-- flora (***@__._), October 05, 2000.

Thank you, CPR. Terminology _does_ make a difference. The old terms were subtle, corrosive, and pervasive.

Perhaps the reason why so many women still like President Clinton is not his obvious charm but his selection of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Janet Reno and Madeline Albright.

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), October 05, 2000.

Anita: YES, with TWO willing women, one can do WONDERS! Thank you for sharing....

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 05, 2000.

I use the term staff months or hours, have for over twenty years. Always hated writing he/she, so I tried to avoid personal pronouns.

Ken, sexism is in the eye of the beholder. Of course there's discrimination based on sex and there always will be. And it goes all the way around, men on men, women on women, men on women, you get the idea. To a certain degree, sexism is what attracks us to other people, hollywood counts on it. The question is where you draw the line and find it offensive. The answer is that it depends on the individual. Some are more sensitive to the innuendos, some welcome it, some reject it immediately. It crosses the line when an individual knows it is offensive to some and yet continues to do it.

I had a boss (who has turned into a very close friend) who's a very upstanding kind of guy. He didn't like the rude jokes or even the slightest foul language (hell was a no-no). When I realized he was offended by such behavior, I didn't use the language or repeat the jokes even though I personally enjoy a little joking around. I respected him and his wishes and we got along tremendously.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 05, 2000.

While I don't want to seem "whimpy", I agree with many of the points raised. I'm a little reluctant to buy into the notion that sexual harassment is defined only by the person being harassed. I can think of situations where coworkers have engaged in sexual banter. While the people exchanging comments may have been comfortable, their actions offended others on the shop floor. I can also imagine situations where a person would take offense at a rather innocent comment. This is why we have a "reasonable person" standard in sexual harassment law... and I think it works rather well.

In general, our society has decided work, school and other social setting should be relatively free of offensive behavior. There will always be gray areas as men and women interact in these settings. In my opinion, the use common sense and common courtesy will preclude most problems.

As for my original point, I think men and women are equally capable of sexist behavior and sexual harassment.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 05, 2000.

Ken:

That was my point. This is the most PC University in the country located in the most PC state and they agree with you. Note this snip:

Such conduct is unwelcome and sufficiently severe or pervasive that it interferes with work or academic performance because it has created an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working or academic environment for the individual who is the object of such conduct, and where the conduct would have such an effect on a reasonable woman (if the object is a woman) or a reasonable man (if the object is a man);

What is harassment is no longer a matter of opinion. It is a legal issue. Ken is correct about this one. We can no longer make up our own minds, because "a mind is a horrible thing to lose" to quote someone.

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 05, 2000.

Z,

I think he said "It is a horrible thing to lose one's mind, how true that is".

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 05, 2000.

Unc:

I'm sure that you are correct. Just got home and had to go out and dig potatoe after potatoe :^) Wears you down.

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 05, 2000.

Z1X4Y7:

Do you have any other links to pictures of those hot blonde babes that were helping to hide Ken Decker's rather large girth, that you posted the other day on the "critical thinking part 2" thread?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 05, 2000.

Z,

You can make up your own mind about harassment, you simply do so at your own risk... particularly if your firm or university has a strict sexual harassment policy. Personally, if you don't like the policy, work somewhere else.

Sexual harassment policies were not developed because the HR folks had a slow day. The policies have been an admittedly imperfect attempt to address a persistent problem. The legal system is an admittedly imperfect recourse for individuals who have been damaged by harassment.

Sexual harassment is real. It's a serious problem sometimes dismissed out of hand by opponents of "political correctness." I think some PC guidelines are silly. On the other, I'm unwilling to throw out the baby with the bathwater by dismissing the need for sexual harassment policies.

Spain,

Why do you bother?

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 05, 2000.

Ken:

You can make up your own mind about harassment,

No you can't and I am sure that you know that in your position. Why do you make it so difficult for people to agree with you?

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 05, 2000.

Z,

I'm not trying to be disagreeable. Frankly, I can't remember every line of our sexual harassment policy. Besides, no written policy can cover every permutation of social behavior. We decide what we will say and do. If our behavior becomes a problem, someone else--a supervisor, a board or a court of law--may decide if our behavior was harassment or not.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 05, 2000.

Spain,

Why do you bother?

-- Ken Decker =====

It's the frigging principle!!!!!!

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 06, 2000.

Spain,

I am surprised to find the word "principle" in one of your posts. Perhaps you are claiming your knee jerk response is really a "principle." If memory serves, this is exactly what you did last year... engage in robotic mocking of anyone with whom you disagreed. Your idea of "debating" Y2K consisted of puerile personal attacks against forum "pollies."

The reason I ask, "Why bother?" is simple. Your childish attacks do far more to discredit you than me. Do you really not get it? Do you really not understand that the serious people on this forum cringe at your adolescent attempts at humor? In one breath you ask for a serious discussion of Y2K. In the next, you indulge in the same behavior that made you the court jester of TB 2000. For a moment at the end of TB 2000, it seemed you had matured and learned something from your Y2K experience. A pity this graciousness was so short lived.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 06, 2000.

A Loser, per my definition, is a human being who has proven them self incapable of contributing positively in a given social environment, or overwhelms what little they do contribute in this manner with consistently childish, offensive, lewd, rude, foul, boorish, low-brow, caveman-like behavior. (Unk does NOT qualify for this award. He owned a four-foot tall bong in his distant youth.)

I cannot think of but a handful of people in my life I have tagged with the label Loser. Based upon a year and a half of reading your posts King of Spain, I consider you to be a Loser.

If you would have provided a legitimate e-mail address I would have stated this to you privately.

BTW, I live in Front Royal, Virginia. Straight out Route 66 West, 1- 1/2 hours outside of D.C. proper. Drop me a line. My e-mail address works. Ill afford you the opportunity to change my opinion of you.

Have you met IRL with anyone from TB2000 or this forum? Perhaps we can convince Ken to join us in the D.C-metro area for a steak and a bottle of beer. Methinks hed jump at the chance of meeting the "man" behind the persona. And no, I won't meet you at a Hooters Restaurant.

Rich

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), October 06, 2000.

LOL!

Ken, your futile attempts at "damage control" for this huge hole you have dug yourself into only gets funnier. The buffoonery of trying to convince the women of this forum that they have been somehow been sexually harassed, in spite of their adamant stance that they have NOT been, must surely be sinking in by now.

May I suggest that you just apologize, stop shoveling, and climb out? And try to be a little less pig headed? You will find it will help you here, and a lot of other places, too, I'm sure.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 06, 2000.

Bingo1:

Sorry if your opinion of me is so low. I know NOTHING hardly of you, other than you feel you were sucked into Y2K hysteria, and regret it.

I liked the Bok chat room last night (first time there), it was nice conversing for the small amount of time that you were there. Perhaps the best way to set up a time and place would be via the chat room.

I would be delighted to meet Ken. I simply cannot believe that IRL he could possibly be the way comes across.

Never been to a Hooters, not my kind of place.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 06, 2000.

Rich, do you know of a charming second-hand bookstore? It's on the main road through town. The name escapes me, but it was a delight.

Spain, I'm convinced. You really don't get it... and you have trouble reading as well. I never said the women on this forum had been sexually harassed. I said you constant comments about mud wrestling were rude and sexist. Who cares that you have found a few women that think your boorish behavior is amusing? The fact that many people watch Jerry Springer doesn't make it quality television.

As for "real life," please feel free to take Rich up on the offer to meet. I'll spring for lunch in Front Royal. For your sake, I will not bring any of my female colleagues. If you made your usual comments, I'd have to step in and protect you.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 06, 2000.

Ken:

I'm very disappointed in that response. It is all show and no go.

I stand by what I offered. Go to Bok's chat room, set up a date/time/place and have a face-to-face civil meal together. My treat.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 06, 2000.

"Who cares that you have found a few women that think your boorish behavior is amusing? The fact that many people watch Jerry Springer doesn't make it quality television."

Ken,

You're getting hamhanded again. Personally, I don't tolerate Jerry Springer shows, or much TV at all. I cut my teeth on Wodehouse. Life has dealt a mixed hand to me at times, and believe me, every laugh is precious. In my eyes, on the old forum, KoS was spoofing the very thing you deplore. Maybe it wasn't funny all of the time, but it did make me chuckle some of the time. I can appreciate how you feel it was too lowbrow for your tastes, but as was said about art - humor is not a mirror, it is a hammer. Maybe you're not talking to all plebians here. You are entitled to your own opinion, as am I. The apparent broad brush judgement on those who don't share that opinion is troubling.

-- flora (***@__._), October 06, 2000.

Flora:

Nicely put, I looked up plebeian as well.

Ha, today I did learn somethin new...thanks flora.

plebeian - um a commoner, such as I :-------0

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), October 06, 2000.

Gosh, Spain, disappointed in me.... What do I have to do to earn your respect? Ridicule your photo? Insult your coworkers?

I am willing to meet anyone from this forum IRL. I'll even travel a distance to make it more convenient for you. Thus far, I have seen nothing in this exchange that leads me to believe you intend to be more civil in Bok's chat room. Why should I go to the trouble of establishing a time and date to meet? Should I believe you'll be different after I have seen you engage in personal attacks for more than a year? Sorry, Spain, but you have a credibility problem, at least with me.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 06, 2000.

OK, Ken, I see you have your standards. (You can outright accuse me of being disrespectful to women, but I can't poke fun at your rather large belly??? Yeah, right.)

Rich (Bingo1), if you are still interested, I am. Front Royal is a "fur piece" from where I am, so I would like to suggest someplace mid-way, say Warrenton. This coming Thursday night in Bok's chat room, we can discuss it further. Regards.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 06, 2000.

KOS,

Bok's is open all the time. Please don't wait until next Thursday evening before you return.

Sheeple

-- (cannotsay25@hotmail.com), October 06, 2000.

Ken: Rich, do you know of a charming second-hand bookstore?

Royal Oak Bookstore, located on Royal Avenue. Charming is an apt description. Delightful proprietors, nice mix of new and used books. Two miles from the northern entrance to scenic Skyline Drive.

KoS: I know NOTHING hardly of you, other than you feel you were sucked into Y2K hysteria, and regret it.

Translation: I (KoS) know diddly-squat about you INCLUDING your take on Y2k, personal actions taken, and subsequent introspective analysis.

I am pleasantly surprised you would feign interest in a meeting, as you have yet to provide so much as a real e-mail address. How are phone numbers to be exchanged? Nonetheless, I am always looking to turn a foe into a friend, so Ill meet you in Boks. Send me an e- mail and well set up a time.

Ken, no need to drive all the way out here. The views are gorgeous, the food mediocre. We can set up a meeting closer to D.C. This would make it more convenient for all concerned, I do believe.

And KoS, I think you may be pleasantly surprised. Ken and I are as we appear in our posts (if THAT'S not an open invitation for derision...).

Late Addition: KoS, Thursday nights are reserved for our prayer groups meeting, as explained here Invitation to Thursday Evening Chat. We try to keep things on a high level of consciousness in Boks on Thursday nights, discuss spiritual matters.

If you refuse to so much as contact me via e-mail, why would I set up an IRL meeting with you? Lets do the planning off forum, shall we?

Rich

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), October 06, 2000.

KOS,

Don't worry about Thursday being reserved for high-brow stuff. I usually just bust in and mess up the place, you can too.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 06, 2000.

flora, very well said (as usual). You echoed my sentiments almost to the letter. I remember during my "lurking" that many times the tone was getting quite tense, and KoS would chime in with the "mudwrestling" thing and I'd nearly fall off the chair laughing so hard.

OK, King, after about twelve thousand times, it did get a bit played, but your timing in so many instances was absolutely perfect. And I believe, much needed so many times.

Rich, too bad I didn't "know" you back at the end of February. My first night "On The Road To Vegas" was spent in Front Royal, VA. Seemed like a cute little town, with a terrific diner right across the street from the AAA-Approved Motel (whose name escapes me) where I stayed. Beautiful country in that area.

To the original question (jeez, there she goes again, actually answering a thread's original question; what is WRONG with that woman?!?!?): "Can women be sexist?" Of course they can. Sheesh; only a man would even ask that question.

(wink, wink.....that was a joke, folks)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), October 06, 2000.

Bok's is a public chat room, open 24/7. Just as most everyone can reproduce without much thought, so can anyone "bust in" and interrupt the flow of a chat.

Sorry if I made it seem otherwise. Pipe dreams...

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), October 06, 2000.

Patricia,

Too true & too funny!

-- flora (***@__._), October 06, 2000.

Just as most everyone can reproduce without much thought...

Hey, that is a subject you will have to take up with my Mom, you can Email me for her phone#.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 06, 2000.

Bongo bud,

Maybe YOU could reproduce without much thought, but it took me 9 freakin' months & 21 hours of labor.

-- flora (***@__._), October 06, 2000.

...you can only imagine what kind of thoughts crossed my mind...

{Are you crying uncle yet?}

-- flora (***@__._), October 06, 2000.

Spain,

You think your mud wrestling quips are charming and poking fun at my appearance (based on a poor photo of my head) is witty. Indeed, who would not want to spend time with such a bon vivant.

Rich,

I actually don't care much for DC. Perhaps a meeting in western Maryland or West Virginia? Hagerstown is an easy drive for me, and I own property not far from Berkely Springs. My email is real, please feel free.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 06, 2000.

Ken,

What is a cow orker?

-- (nemesis@awol.com), October 06, 2000.

Ken - "Can women be sexist?" - Is the Pope Catholic? The typical thing is for men to use women as "sex objects," women to use men as "success objects." I could tell you stories... one of our friends married a 'sweet thing' and OH BOY. We warned him, but he saw it differently. The man is totally hamstrung. Would have walked out years ago if not for the kids. For one thing, he did not WANT kids. Of course he never should have married her knowing how 180 degrees opposite they were on this point. Predictably, she 'arranged' an 'accident'. (Turns out he is an incredibly great father to his kids - amazing to see, for someone who didn't want kids.)

Every few months he shows up at our house saying "I can't take it any more" and swearing he's leaving. Last time he did that, she cleaned all the money out of the bank accounts within 24 hours. (He needs to be smarter about this.) He will never get custody because he's a man; how do you prove in court that a woman is a mindfucker? If he leaves w/ no divorce she will split and go to her family in South America with the kids, where she's from. He needs to stand up to her and never has, but that is another issue. And it could be said the least of what's going on here is sexism, it's all around pathological. But it shows the far end of female side of USING attitude that is at the bottom of sexism.

You mentioned divorce laws. When I divorced in my first marriage I could have gotten the house but chose not to. It was a house he had inherited from his mother. By law, I could have gotten it, but it seemed wrong. Some say I was a fool not to go for it, because of HIS behavior. etc. etc. Not that I am such a saint either; I just wanted to end it, and doing that would have just kept it alive.

King of Spain, I don't care for your mudwrestling comments and find them sexist. I guess I'm one of the few.

It's the type of thing where if I were friends with someone, such comments could be an inside joke type of thing and then it would be fine. That seems to have happened here so I understand it; it's in a different ballpark now.

On balance though, you seem like the type of guy where if given a choice, will do the popular thing, not the right thing.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), October 06, 2000.

Patricia, timing is everything!

Unk, lol, as usual. BTW, where do native Floridians go to retire?

flora, uncle. Uncle. UNCLE! After the 1st experience of shooting one out, why would ANY women have a 2nd? Now that's a subject for a new thread. Anita, wherefore art thou? Actually, Helen would also be more than capable of tackling this one. Take the ball and run somebody. I'd really be interested in reading ya'lls thoughts on this.

Ken, lots of options. I would like to give KoS an opportunity to meet with us and it appears he's not up to traveling far. Warrenton, VA has a good steakhouse near Route 66 East. Had a nice dinner there with Stan and Meg earlier this year.

Manassas, VA has a very good Mexican restaurant just a couple miles off Route 66 West.

I'll wait for his e-mail, discuss options with him and then contact you. If he doesn't respond, you and I can set something up closer to you. Sound good?

Anyone else in the Southeast Pennsylvania, Maryland, Northern Virginia region who would like to get together, please drop Ken or myself an e-mail. Of course anyone and everyone is invited. Who could pass up a meet and greet with this trio? (Did I say "all those who COULD resist raise your hands"?)

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), October 06, 2000.

Patricia:

Thank you for your kind words. And from a de-bunkerette, yet! I am flattered.

Debbie:

Thanks for speaking up. I hope you understand that it does have a (too) long history behind it, and in any case was completely and totally in jest. Compared to what one might encounter elsewhere in Internet Land, it is pretty tame.

Bingo1 (Rich):

You will not be getting a private e-mail. What you will be getting is my attendance at Boks chat room at 11PM EST on Thursday, October 12, 2000, to determine:

1) The physical location and date/time of a meeting with you and anyone else interested in coming.

2) The exact criteria that I need to satisfy your not loser criteria. For example, do I need to supply proof of employment? My college degree? Clean police record? Title to late model automobile? W-2 from last year? 401(k) amount? Property tax receipts? Federal/State income tax receipts? DD-214 for my Honorable Discharge from the military? Credit history? Pictures of the kids? Dental records? I mean, what exactly are you looking for that would meet your criteria? I barely know you, you barely know me, yet I am branded as a loser, and I would like to try to understand just what it is that I need to do to get this brand changed. And, for that matter, who exactly you are to pass such judgment.

Ken:

Look, let me be blunt, because I am really getting tired of your annoying yapping.

Firstly, you dug yourself into this sexist nonsense, and have nobody to blame but yourself. The political correctness game may be played constantly in your pseudo-government position, but gets stale fast IRL, especially on an Internet forum where people are just trying to have good natured humor, and certainly not to be taken personally. (Big clue: Everyone looks the same -- black text on white screen.)

Secondly, based on the reasonable assumption that where there is an overweight face there is an overweight body, it is my belief that you are fat, if not outright obese. Normally, I dont point these things out, but after all the stuff you stated last year at ye olde TB2K about your farming (or ranching, depending on the version) and military feats, it just seems a little odd to me. If you come to the gathering, I guess we can all see. But, if you decide to continue to decline, so be it. (Yeah, go ahead, stay home and gorge on doughnuts.)

All:

I apologize for taking up thread space with this crap. Normally, I dont get pissed. But I am really pissed. Ten months after the (non) event, we should be having the most thorough and insightful discussions about Y2K. Instead, we have this. As in, SUDDENLY, the mudwrestling stuff supposedly becomes our female forum members worst nightmare. I don't buy it.

As CPR would say, ***BS CUBED***.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 06, 2000.

Ken,

All of this talk about what is or isn't sexist seems to just boil down to people being mean to each other. Meanness based on gender distinction is no different than meanness based on racial distinction or any other form of division between people. Some people feel harmed when no harm was intended. For those occasions, speaking up is usually enough to engender an apology.

I didn't think KOS was being mean within the context of a bulletin board. I doubt he would do this in person. I know I wouldn't put up with it in person.

-- helen (totally@lost.this.time), October 06, 2000.

Debbie, thanks. Spain was convinced all the female members of the forum were enchanted with his witty comments. But isn't it comforting to know it could have been much worse?

Rich, I'll defer to your judgement.

Spain, and I thought you were blunt (or simply dull) all along. The simple fact is that your comments are sexist and rude. The Internet forum song-and-dance is just a lame excuse for your poor behavior.

Your snide comments about my physical appearance are more of the same. My height, weight, race, religious convictions, hair color or shoe size have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. I'm sure you're the kind of guy who looks at Maya Angelou and says, "Man, she could lose a couple of pounds."

Buy a clue, Spain. You are incapable of having a meaningful discussion about Y2K or its aftermath. That would require a level of insight and intelligence you apparently lack. The sum of contribution on TB 2000 was sophomoric humor and gratuitious personal attacks. Now, we are to believe you want a serious discussion? (laughter) I doubt we can fit them in between your childish antics.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 07, 2000.

You will not be getting a private e-mail.

Why is this such a big issue with you, KoS? I've talked to several of the folks I'm meeting in Las Vegas next week on the phone, and had e- mail exchanges with each one of them. They are real people who are not afraid of their own shadows. A few have had problems with internet stalkers and yet felt enough confidence in me to offer private forms of communications. Another forum regular had his/her identification stolen, yet has graciously exchanged e-mails and recently we talked on the phone.

You displayed consistently abhorrent behavior on TB2000 in complete anonymity over many, many months, will not so much as divulge an e- mail address, yet I'm supposed to judge you as someone trustworthy enough to meet in person?

Believe me, my criteria for meeting IRL are low. But you sir have met NONE of them. I expect to have a way for my relations to track you down IF something bad should happen at our meeting. This is simply prudence. This is common sense, IMO. I don't perform searches on people. I don't give a rat's ass about your street address or which brand of toilet paper you prefer. I do expect a real e-mail address and the offer of a telephone number. OR, any forum member I respect (the list is long) who can verify they have spoken to you by e-mail and or telephone is acceptable to me.

Well? Has any long-time regular communicated with KoS off-fora? Flint? Unk? flora? Carlos? Anita? Ken? CD? Brian? OG? Kritt? Anyone?

Pretty easy criteria to meet, KoS. If ANYONE reading this thinks I am out of line with this prerequisite, I would love to read their reasoning.

As to the loser comment - I sincerely apologize. It was frustration born of reading your posts going back more than 1-1/2 years. You were a disruptive force on TB2000. You helped to destroy many a good thread there with your crude behavior. I saw it continuing here, albeit to a lesser extent, and I reacted. Wholly unlike me to post such an attack. This is why I plead with people to provide real e- mail addresses. I would much rather discuss the personal side of this privately, KoS.

Never have you presented your reasoning for remaining completely anonymous here and on TB2000, that I have seen. There are legitimate (in my eyes) reasons for doing so. I won't meet a complete anon IRL, but I would like to know why you insist on posting from the shadows.

Rich

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), October 07, 2000.

Wholly unlike me to post such an attack.

That's true.

Next time you wish to gratuitously attack a poster without soiling yourself you can email me and I will do it. And this is a free service, BTW. Oh, I must agree with the premise in general, but other than that I remain at your humble service.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 07, 2000.

Bingo1:

This has GOT to be the strangest apology ever. In effect, Gee, Im real honest-to-goodness sorry that I called you a loser, but quite frankly, Im very worried that you might be a serial killer.

So let me get this straight. The idea was to meet in a PUBLIC PLACE. In BROAD DAYLIGHT, if that was your preference. With OTHER FORUM MEMBERS who wished to come. With, as you point out, my one and a half years of IP addresses LOGGED (between ye olde TB2K, Yourdons Y2K FANS forum, and now this TB2K-spinoff forum), and ON RECORD, to aid in any subsequent police investigations. But, due to my wish to not give out my e-mail address, you are afraid for your life.

Well, let me give you the short answer: I am no longer interested in meeting with YOU.

I do HOPE that there will be, at some point, an upcoming TB2K-spinoff forum meeting on the East Coast (similar to the LV festivities). I am definitely interested in meeting the non-paranoid folks.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 07, 2000.

Unk,does that make you an internet vigilante? LOL (scenes in my head of Charles Bronson sitting at a computer,typing furiously).

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), October 07, 2000.

Unk  ROTFLMAO!

KoS  I made what I regard as a simple, straightforward, common sense request. I laid out my reasoning for you. You in turn offer no explanation for your refusal to contact me by e-mail, you over-react (serial-killer) to my post and withdraw from the meet and greet.

I interpret your words and actions thusly: you had no intention of ever meeting IRL. You will continue to hide in the shadows, operating without accountability. As you wish.

Perhaps those here who were not witness to your uncivil behavior - I refer not to mud wrestling jokes here - on TB2000 now have a stronger understanding as to why some people hide themselves on internet fora: They wish to escape accountability for their words and actions on the boards they choose to inhabit.

As I mentioned above, in my eyes there are legitimate reasons for remaining anonymous. Each person Ive encountered who does so has offered an explanation when pressed except three - "King of Spain" is one and the other two longer posts here under their original handles.

Most anons I never bother inquiring with because they are positive contributors and obviously prefer anonymity (hmm & helen come most prominently to mind). The goofballs (not you nemesis) who look to push buttons via their revolving handles aren't worthy of my time and energy.

You owe me any explanations, KoS. I dont have to know your email address. My life is pretty full. I thought Id give you the opportunity to allow each of us to get to know you just a little bit beyond mud wrestling. You have declined the offer. It shall remain open indefinitely.

I wish you well,

Rich

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), October 07, 2000.

Correction:

(last paragraph) "You don't owe me any explanations..."

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), October 07, 2000.

Bingo1:

The reason that I do not generally give out my e-mail address on the Internet is because there are just too many nut cases out there. Pure and simple.

For example, consider this purely hypothetical scenario:

1) On an Internet discussion forum, an individual with whom you are barely aware of, and who knows virtually nothing about you, suddenly declares that you are a loser, and offers you the opportunity to prove otherwise if you will reveal your e-mail address and meet with him.

2) You agree to set up a meeting at a public place with the opportunity for other forum participants to also attend. You then ask the individual to qualify why you are labeled as a loser, and specifically what criteria you need to meet to prove otherwise. As suddenly as it was applied, the label is retracted, the individual apologizes profusely, yet still insists that your e-mail address is needed, so that it would be possible for my relations to track you down IF something bad should happen at our meeting.

3) When you sense, based on this, that perhaps this individual is somewhat unbalanced and decide to decline the meeting altogether, the individual then accuses you of deliberately trying to avoid meeting with ANY forum participants.

Now, reading through this hypothetical example, would YOU want to have an individual such as this know your e-mail address? I sure wouldnt.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 07, 2000.

Spain,

Some of us have used our real email addresses for years without any problems from "nut cases." I can understand why you might be reluctant to provide a real name or email address to your posts. I would not the credit for your "contributions" the old forum or the new.

If I might speak on Rich's behalf, he called you a "loser" because you have spent well over a year making rude remarks and gratuitious personal attacks. For most folks, this is the behavior of a "loser." Adding to this mantle is your decision to hide behind a rather silly psuedonym and false email address. To attack people from the shadows is generally considered cowardly behavior.

If you want to meet in real life, I have none of Rich's worries. I'm really not worried about the kind of person who skulks behind a false name and whose literary high water mark consists of playground taunts. Rich is not unbalanced. He's a decent sort who is generous enough to bother meeting with you in real life... perhaps in the hope that you behave better over dinner than you do on the Internet.

Of course, Rich is more of an optimist than me. I think you'll be the same punk in real life.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 08, 2000.

That was a pretty good save there, Ken. KoS, I hope you guys do get a chance to break bread together.

-- flora (***@__._), October 08, 2000.

WASSSSUUUUPPP!!!!

Ken, you always manage to get a humongous response to your threads...

You da man...

scratchin' an itch...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), October 08, 2000.

KOS:

You can easily acquire a hotmail or yahoo E-mail address for correspondence with folks on fora. If you get anything offensive, you can just click "block sender." I'd have to look again, but I don't remember giving Hotmail any information that wasn't already in the public domain. Bingo makes a good point about discussing things offline [via E-mail] rather than airing laundry in a public forum.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), October 08, 2000.

Well, I'll be dog-goned, its the DOG...Hi Dog, so good to see you post.

Wow, this thread is a bit much. Rich, I am glad to see you apologize it proves that you are accountable for yourself. In your defense, I might add, that I've never seen you 'lose it' except for the loser comment.

IMHO, am I the only one who believes this is NOT the real KOS? Seems to me alot of old-timers who disappeared have suddenly reappeared but they dont seem to be the geniune. Perhaps this is why KOS doesnt wish to 'meet'?

No offense to KOS either.

Why cant we all just get along? I'd like to attend a get-together as well for those of us on the East Coast. Perhaps after you all have your get together on the West Coast, you will attempt to do the same for those of us East Coasters? I'd love to in Spring/Summer if possible. I'd like to meet each of you.

Just a thought.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), October 08, 2000.

The Dog,

Don't you think it's high time you all in the southwest met for high tea, or something? Lessee, that would include al-d & ladylogic...who else am I missing? Oh yeah, Ed.

-- flora (***@__._), October 08, 2000.

Deck, Spain, & Bing -

My suggestion for the location: Camp David

-- flora (***@__._), October 08, 2000.

Flora,

Believe it or not I tried to meet Ladylogic, but I was never able to go to Phoenix within the time frame.

Is she gone? I have been out-of-pocket (that work thing you know) and have not been to this board in several months...

As far as Al-d is concerned, I still live in ABQ...

Tea??? Only Earl Grey for this canine. I doubt Al or Laura has it in their cupboard...

How ya'll are???

(snicker)

watchin' the rain...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), October 08, 2000.

Firstly, I am the real KOS. How do I prove it to anyone? Beats me. But I am.

I don't give out my e-mail address, generally. I might make an exception if I felt it was warranted. The bizarre behavior exhibited by Bingo1 (a.k.a. Rich) does not qualify it for an exception.

OK Ken: If you now are reversing yourself, and do want to meet, then be at Bok's chat room this Thursday, October 12, 2000, at 11PM EST, and we will set it up. No muss, no fuss, no messy e-mail addresses.

(Yes, Anita, I am aware that I could set up a fly-by-night e-mail address, but why should I?)

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 08, 2000.

Geeez spaniard!!!,

First Bingo extends an olive leaf and you mightv'e just as well told him to shove it up his ass.TOTALLY COMMON.

Then Ken,only upon reversing himself "in your opinion" do you agree to talk with and possibly meet,your assigned meeting place and time is during of a group of forumites prayer meeting time,HOW RUDE! What do you want,witnesses?

Then Anita suggests an alternative and you reject THAT,saying "why should I?" NO,you don't have to and transversely no one has to try and communicate with YOU either,PERIOD.

This is not a kingdom,let alone yours,this is a small internet community,that believe it or not can/has survived without your highness.If you want to be a King you have to act like a King,in other words if ya wanna talk the talk ya gotta walk the walk.

I'm willing to put "KOS-The Missing Months" behind us and get on with the here and now and being regular,but dude!!! A King is supposed to be wise.

I believe you are who you say you are,just for the record.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), October 08, 2000.

capnfun:

My one and only experience to date with Boks chat room is when I was there last Thursday night, from approx 10:15PM-11:45PM. During that time, a wide variety of things were discussed.

For example, the first thing that I was asked to do when I came in to the chat room, by one of the women, was to say something sexist so that they could be sure that it was me. (Not really knowing what else to say, I just said, Decker is a pecker.)

As things got rolling, we had a great time talking about all kinds of stuff. Experiences with babies being born under medical complications (gawd, nearly fainted!), favorite pets, first lesbian experiences by some of the women (wide awake for that one!), and of course the Spin the Polly game that was so delightful. My point is, I dont think it would inconvenience anyone if two guys simply used it as a medium to set up a face-to-face meeting.

Like ... this Thursday ... October 12, 2000 ... at 11PM EST. (Hmmmm. Maybe Ill make that my standard greeting and salutation at Boks chat room: Decker is a pecker! Yes, has a nice ring to it.)

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 09, 2000.

KOS-

It appears either you did not read, or comprehend the second paragraph of capn's last post. Please read it again, if you will.

-- Aunt Bee (Aunt__Bee@hotmail.com), October 09, 2000.

Dog, good to see you again.

Flora, Camp David is surprisingly nice. The leaves in the Catoctin Mountains (actually just hills) are turning.

Spain, I have no doubt it's really "you." As for the email address, Anita makes an excellent point. It takes all of five minutes to set up an account at any of the free email service providers. You expect Rich and/or I to drive to southern Virginia... and you can't be troubled to spend five minutes setting up an email account? I guess we can add "lazy" to the list of adjectives that best describe you.

As for a meeting, Spain, why should anyone bother? So you can "entertain" us with your grade school antics? So you can dazzle us with your insights into Y2K after you have kept any sign of intelligent thought carefully hidden for 18 months? So you can convince us that insulting women is actually funny? (laughter) After reading your posts for over a year, I have determined why you will not meet Rich or I anywhere but your home town. You're not old enough to drive.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 09, 2000.

Rofl @ Ken's comment regarding driving...

too funny.

Next....

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), October 09, 2000.

OK, Ken, so be it. The advantage to having an on-line chat at Bok's chat room would be to make sure that nobody would have to end up driving too far. But, as you have indicated all through this thread, you are all-show, no-go.

One last time regarding the e-mail address: There is no reason for me to have to cough one up, it is not needed. There is plenty in the way of IP address trails over the past 18 months, in case anyone's "relations" need to track me down.

And I don't want anyone to take it personally that I'm not coughing up personal data on the 'net. But, for those who were at ye olde TB2K, I'm sure you remember how Hoffmeister got burned -- he trusted someone with some personal data, and of course it then became headline news.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 09, 2000.

KoS,

Trust me on this one -- if my paranoia was any worse than it is, I'd be walking down the street constantly spinning and pirouetting.

Yet practically as soon as I knew it was possible, and understood how private it really is, I set up an account on Yahoo. And, really, it's as easy as Ken describes.

Why not give it a shot?

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), October 09, 2000.

Spain,

(laughter) You are most amusing when you least intend it. There is no "personal data" involved with an anonymous email service. By the way, my irony dectector is nearly off the scale. You have shown no reluctance to engage in childish attacks based on my personal data. Perhaps you imagine other people will behave as badly with your "personal data." (chuckle)

Rich and I will probably be meeting in November/December somewhere in Virginia. If he is so inclined, we'll add a place setting for you. You've given me little reason to consider your convenience in selecting the meeting place. We'll be there and, if Rich agrees and you can keep a civil tongue in your head, you will be welcome to join us.

Lest you forget, young Spain, I met Rich because I attended the northern Virginia Y2K gathering... the "token" polly among a group of doomsayers. Funny, I didn't see you there....

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 09, 2000.

Ken:

To answer your question regarding previous meetings: I was re- located to Arlington, VA, by my company last June. I was not here before then.

So you see, things do change. For example, IRONICALLY, I suspect if I were to say to you: Ken, after looking at that picture you put on the net, I have to ask: how could a grotesquely fat, if not obese, guy like you have possibly accomplished the military feats and farming work that you claimed that you did?, your response would be that you gained your tonnage during your recent years as a government employee. Which, based on my experience in dealing with you folks, I can readily believe.

I see that you are once again weaseling, and have left a sort of back door, stating that somehow Rich a.k.a. Bingo1 is actually going to make the final decision as to whether I am invited to the next gathering. You are consistent if nothing else.

Remember, Ken: I am hard to find, but easy to schedule. Which, IMHO, is the way to do business on the net.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 09, 2000.

Spain,

You are a the gumball machine of insults. I put a quarter behind your ear and out rolls another. (chuckle) The more we talk, Spain, the less inclined I am to meet you in person. Given your penchant for personal attacks, I doubt you could manage to make it through dinner without getting kicked out of a restaurant. As for my personal appearance and history, give it a rest. If you think me out of shape, you can always follow me elk hunting this fall... or will your mother let you go? (laughter)

As for your slur against everyone in public service... it just demonstrates your ignorance. I left the private sector (and took a substantial pay cut) because I wanted to make a difference in a small community. I work with some outstanding people... the folks who make sure there's water when you turn the tap. These folks plow the streets when you are tucked in bed and maintain the roads you drive on. Your blanket criticism of these fine people makes it clear how little class you have.

If you want to meet in Arlington, Spain, I'm willing to make the drive... just to see what a complete waste of air looks like in person.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 09, 2000.

Ken:

I just want to be included in the Nov/Dec gathering, sans e-mail address and all. I don't think that is too much to ask for. I doubt that a restaurant management would tolerate words like "punk", anymore than anything I've come up with. Truce?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 09, 2000.

This highschool skirmish between Decker and KoS would almost be funny if they WERE highschool kids. Geez, and it picked up momentum since I left last Thursday.

Aunt Bee Capn, everytime I log on Bok's chat room on Thursday nights, it seems to be business as usual; that of silly banter, gossips and sex talk thrown in with more serious talk here and there. I can't see why KoS could not set up a meeting that night with someone else, when it seems everyone else is using that very public chatroom to do as they please.

-- (smarty@wannabe.one), October 09, 2000.

Can women be sexist?

It is now a discussion of a meeting between Ken and KOS. You do know that Old Git would not have permitted this. NNNNOOOWWWAAAY. :^) Appreciate.

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 09, 2000.

Smarty,

Youre right,theres no reason why not,but personally if I stop in on Thurs nights I stop by later in the night as to not horn in,just to be respectful,that's all i was alluding to.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), October 10, 2000.

King & Smarty-

The issue on Thursday nite is our prayer service (which I tried to point out a couple of times earlier today to KOS-but apparently hit a wall). Folks need to soften their attitudes and perspective in order to get along-hey this isn;t the middle east you guys=can't we all just get along? So, once again KOS, when it comes to Thurs nite, forget about hanging at 11:00pm CST as folks are committed in terms of their energy-to devotion elsewhere. You decide and show your integrity KOS, be there or be square.

-- Aunt Bee (Aunt__Bee@hotmail.com), October 10, 2000.

Aunt Bee:

Gawd! This truly reminds me of something out of Mayberry....

ANDY: Now, Barney, you KNOW that Aunt Bee, and Thelma Lou and all the other ladies in the Mayberry Choir, meet there at that time, and have been doing it for as long as Floyd has been giving Opie haircuts.

BARNEY: But, ANNNDDYYYY, it says right here, in black and white, Mayberry Town Council regulation number 8419 dash B, ...

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 10, 2000.

Smarty, What a coincidence. I would use the words "high school" to describe your definitions of sexism and sexual harassment. With all due respect, it is the business of the attendees to determine how a meeting will be scheduled. If Rich prefers these arrangements be made via email, I am sure he has valid reasons.

Spain, I have no burning interest in pursuing this. At this point, I can do no more than you have done to yourself.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@att.net), October 10, 2000.

Bingo1:

OK, looks like Ken says the decision as to whether I am included is completely up to you. So my question to you is: Are you going to still insist that I supply an e-mail address so that your relations can track me down if they ever feel that they have justifiable cause, or are you going to simply allow me to come without one?

(By the way, being new to the state of Virginia, I have to ask: Do most people around rural Front Royal say relations when they really mean relatives? And, does this ever lead to embarrassing interpretations? Like: Sorry, but my wife and I cant attend your party, we have scheduled relations for that weekend.)

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 10, 2000.