From Drudge;

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX WED OCT 04, 2000 10:25:09 ET XXXXX

DEBATE BACKFIRE: GORE CAUGHT IN HIGH SCHOOL FIB; PRINCIPAL SAYS 'NEW LAB EQUIPMENT' CAUSED CLASS CRUNCH

Vice President Al Gore was caught in a High School fib during Tuesday night's nationally televised presidential debate when he claimed a Florida public school was so overcrowded a student was forced to stand during science class!

"They can't squeeze another desk in for her so she has to stand during class," Gore explained while telling the story of 15-year-old Kailey Ellis of Sarasota High. "I want the federal government, consistent with local control and new accountability, to make improvement of our schools the number one priority so Kailey will have a desk and can sit down in a classroom where she can learn."

Sarasota High School principal Daniel Kennedy on Wednesday morning called Gore's debate story 'misleading at best'.

"His facts are inacurate," Kennedy declared on WFLA 970 am in Tampa. "There was $100,000 worth of lab equipment waiting to be unpacked in the room, that's why the room was crowded. We have no students standing."

And the beat goes on. While I will not vote for Bush, I think we would be better off with a guy who has trouble with pronounciation rather than a guy who cannot stop lying.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 04, 2000

Answers

What I want to know is, if that geezer has to collect cans to pay for her prescription drugs, how'd she spring for the gas money to drive all the way to Boston?

-- ? (@ .), October 04, 2000.

Unk-

Drudge? Please, brother. Need a better source than that.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), October 04, 2000.

Hey unk, that's my line!

We all know who paid for her trip.

Did you see my post on the other thread? Here it is.

Gore is a slime just like the prez he supports today. The last 30 seconds of his 2 minute closing he spent dicussing some 77 year old woman. A reporter told the real story of this woman. She collects can for fun not for food. She has a 55 year old retired business man who could certainly support her and would but she doesn't want it. She has enough money to pay for food and drugs. Gore's a slime.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 04, 2000.

Just on Fox....

Last nite Gore said he went to Texas with James Lee Witt to survey disaster relief efforts. Guess what? It was a LIE! Gore visited one year later, to attend, shockingly enough, a fundraiser!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 04, 2000.

Yeah I remember when Gore said that Bush frowned somewhat, like "WHAT???"

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 04, 2000.

Future Shock.

I will agree that Matt Drudge is hardly the consummate source for reliable information. However, if you still need further clarification on Al Gores character, then there is no help for you. Perhaps a tealeaf reading would satisfy your quest for the truth.

-- I (h@ve.spoken), October 04, 2000.

CBS News has confirmed Drudge's story in total. It's been part of thier daily radio news update most of the afternoon

-- Hiway (Hiway441@aol.com), October 04, 2000.

FS: While I agree Drudge isn't the best source, it's not the worst either ;-)

The woman who collects cans has a pretty wealthy son. He was saying they (him and his wife) had tried to get her to live with them, but she'll have none of that. The woman herself admited that she had no problem paying for prescription drugs, she was just speaking for those who *did* have trouble.

The story Gore told about the school kids having to eat lunch in shifts, beginning at 9am was also not true. The principal came out and said so.

Maria is right about the Texas thing.

I think the debate was basically a tie. Therefore, Bush won (because everyone was waiting for him to fall on his face. Seeing as he didn't, he wins by default...groan)

One more thing, when Gore said that he had to go to Vietnam because if he didn't then someone else from his state would have to go in his place we had to laugh. His father was behind in the senate race at the time. *That's* why Gore went.

Mar.

-- Not now, not like this (AgentSmith0110@aol.com), October 04, 2000.

Here's a conterpoint from a much more reputable source

---------------------------------------------------

Bush Vows To Do 'That Thing Gore Just Said, Only Better'

BOSTON-- Responding to debate opponent Al Gore's promise to pay off the national debt in 12 years by devoting $2 of projected surpluses toward debt reduction for every $1 used for tax cuts, George W. Bush vowed to do "that thing Gore just said, only better" during Tuesday's presidential debate. "Yeah, that debt thing," the Republican candidate said during his allotted 90-second rebuttal. "I'm going to do that, but, like, 10 times better." Bush added that, as president, he would "do all that stuff Gore said about education and the environment, but my version would work twice as good."

-- (smarty@wannabe.one), October 04, 2000.

GAWD!!!!

Gore may be a pathological liar, but at least he makes up stuff that SOUNDS good. Bush is too damn lazy to even come with anything remotely believable!!!

Who ya gonna call?...

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 04, 2000.

Uncle Deeduh, and Drudge, have this one right, the story has been all across the news media. Here's a couple of links to this story and others (both sides):

h ttp://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/abc/20001004/pl/20001004004.html

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20001004/el/campaign_rdp_3.html

And from FoxNews T at click on "The Aftermath". I couldn't post a direct link, but here's the article: ---------------

Bush, Gore Deconstruct Their Debate By John P. Martin Wednesday, October 4, 2000 E-mail this story to a friend

Al Gore and George W. Bush carried their morning-after messages to battleground states Wednesday, deconstructing their first presidential debate and accusing each other of deceiving voters.

Both men shed their jackets, rolled up their sleeves and thundered at lively rallies. In West Chester, Pa., Bush said viewers of the Boston debate "got to see a difference in philosophy" and said his budget plan spends the surplus on tax relief while Gore's wastes it on growing government.

When Bush quipped that Gore "loved to talk about numbers," the crowd began chanting Bush's Tuesday night refrain: "No fuzzy math! No fuzzy math!"

Gore ventured to Ohio, repeating his claim that Bush would spend more in tax relief for "the wealthiest 1 percent" of Americans than he would on all other constituents combined.

The vice president also revisited the issue of character. When asked about the topic during the debate, Bush referred to Gore's questionable fund-raising visit to a Buddhist temples and "no controlling authority," words the vice president used to defend President Clinton amid the Monica Lewinsky scandal and impeachment.

In Warren, Ohio, Gore opened his speech by telling supporters: "I think it's better to spend time attacking our country's problems than to attack someone personally."

But the post-debate attacks over the truth continued in what is being called the tightest presidential race in 40 years.

Republicans were clamoring over Gore's claim that he accompanied James Lee Witt, chief of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, into Parker County, Texas, after a rash of catastrophic fires in 1996. News reports at the time suggest Gore did not visit the region.

The vice president did survey the scene by plane after fires in 1998, his campaign said, but not with Witt. That trip was also part of a trip that included a Democratic Party fund-raiser.

In an exclusive interview with Fox News, Bush himself said the remark was part of "a disturbing pattern" of exaggerations from Gore.

"I thought for a minute I was going to call him on it because I don't remember him being in Parker County," the Texas governor said Wednesday. "I think I would have remembered it, but I took the man at his word. Of course, it turns out he didn't. This is a man who's got a record, you know, of sometimes exaggerating in order to make a point."

Republicans and Bush campaign officials also questioned Gore's anecdotes about overcrowded schools. In one, Gore mentioned a Dade County, Fla., school where children must begin eating lunch at 9:30 a.m. because the cafeteria cannot accommodate all the students. In at least one previous appearance, Gore said the school was Lillie C. Evans.

But principal Dorothy Bendross-Mindingall, a Democrat, told the Miami Herald: "Our lunch hour begins at 10:30 a.m. My school has never, ever had lunch start that early and I don't know of any other school in the county that does."

Gore was under scrutiny for his suggestion that a girl at a Sarasota High School was forced to stand because the overcrowded classroom had run out of desks. School officials offered several alternate explanations Wednesday, including that the room was being remodeled and the student had transferred to the class at the last minute.

Democrats and Gore's campaign responded not with direct explanations, but with their own examples of what they said were Bush's debate missteps.

They chided Bush for alleging that Gore "has outspent me," noting that the Bush campaign has spent $120 million on his White House bid, or nearly twice as much as Gore. And they noted that Bush appeared to contradict early statements by his campaign that he would not accept the Food and Drug Administration's approval of the "RU-486" abortion pill.

Like his boss, Gore campaign spokesman Doug Hattaway also sought to portray Bush as a mudslinger for injecting the scandals into the debate.

"Bush is back to making personal attacks because he lost the debate on the issues," Hattaway said.

Gore was slated to end the day with an appearance in New Jersey, then spend Thursday in Michigan and Florida. Bush traveled from Pennsylvania to Ohio.

The two men meet for a second debate next Wednesday in Winston-Salem, N.C.

But first their vice presidential nominees have a showdown. Democrat Joseph Lieberman and Republican Dick Cheney will debate Thursday night in Danville, Ky.

 Fox News' Carl Cameron and the Associated Press contributed to this report

-- David (David@bzn.com), October 04, 2000.

Sorry about the last link html error, here's the article without the color: ---------- Bush, Gore Deconstruct Their Debate By John P. Martin Wednesday, October 4, 2000 E-mail this story to a friend

Al Gore and George W. Bush carried their morning-after messages to battleground states Wednesday, deconstructing their first presidential debate and accusing each other of deceiving voters.

Both men shed their jackets, rolled up their sleeves and thundered at lively rallies. In West Chester, Pa., Bush said viewers of the Boston debate "got to see a difference in philosophy" and said his budget plan spends the surplus on tax relief while Gore's wastes it on growing government.

When Bush quipped that Gore "loved to talk about numbers," the crowd began chanting Bush's Tuesday night refrain: "No fuzzy math! No fuzzy math!"

Gore ventured to Ohio, repeating his claim that Bush would spend more in tax relief for "the wealthiest 1 percent" of Americans than he would on all other constituents combined.

The vice president also revisited the issue of character. When asked about the topic during the debate, Bush referred to Gore's questionable fund-raising visit to a Buddhist temples and "no controlling authority," words the vice president used to defend President Clinton amid the Monica Lewinsky scandal and impeachment.

In Warren, Ohio, Gore opened his speech by telling supporters: "I think it's better to spend time attacking our country's problems than to attack someone personally."

But the post-debate attacks over the truth continued in what is being called the tightest presidential race in 40 years.

Republicans were clamoring over Gore's claim that he accompanied James Lee Witt, chief of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, into Parker County, Texas, after a rash of catastrophic fires in 1996. News reports at the time suggest Gore did not visit the region.

The vice president did survey the scene by plane after fires in 1998, his campaign said, but not with Witt. That trip was also part of a trip that included a Democratic Party fund-raiser.

In an exclusive interview with Fox News, Bush himself said the remark was part of "a disturbing pattern" of exaggerations from Gore.

"I thought for a minute I was going to call him on it because I don't remember him being in Parker County," the Texas governor said Wednesday. "I think I would have remembered it, but I took the man at his word. Of course, it turns out he didn't. This is a man who's got a record, you know, of sometimes exaggerating in order to make a point."

Republicans and Bush campaign officials also questioned Gore's anecdotes about overcrowded schools. In one, Gore mentioned a Dade County, Fla., school where children must begin eating lunch at 9:30 a.m. because the cafeteria cannot accommodate all the students. In at least one previous appearance, Gore said the school was Lillie C. Evans.

But principal Dorothy Bendross-Mindingall, a Democrat, told the Miami Herald: "Our lunch hour begins at 10:30 a.m. My school has never, ever had lunch start that early and I don't know of any other school in the county that does."

Gore was under scrutiny for his suggestion that a girl at a Sarasota High School was forced to stand because the overcrowded classroom had run out of desks. School officials offered several alternate explanations Wednesday, including that the room was being remodeled and the student had transferred to the class at the last minute.

Democrats and Gore's campaign responded not with direct explanations, but with their own examples of what they said were Bush's debate missteps.

They chided Bush for alleging that Gore "has outspent me," noting that the Bush campaign has spent $120 million on his White House bid, or nearly twice as much as Gore. And they noted that Bush appeared to contradict early statements by his campaign that he would not accept the Food and Drug Administration's approval of the "RU-486" abortion pill.

Like his boss, Gore campaign spokesman Doug Hattaway also sought to portray Bush as a mudslinger for injecting the scandals into the debate.

"Bush is back to making personal attacks because he lost the debate on the issues," Hattaway said.

Gore was slated to end the day with an appearance in New Jersey, then spend Thursday in Michigan and Florida. Bush traveled from Pennsylvania to Ohio.

The two men meet for a second debate next Wednesday in Winston-Salem, N.C.

But first their vice presidential nominees have a showdown. Democrat Joseph Lieberman and Republican Dick Cheney will debate Thursday night in Danville, Ky.

 Fox News' Carl Cameron and the Associated Press contributed to this report

-- David (David@bzn.com), October 04, 2000.

OK, I've dug a little more and have found out a lot more about the source of Gore's "overcrowded school" story:

By Jill Barton >

Read the story, then go to the original story written by By Jill Barton thanks linked on the page. Now read what the principal has to say here:

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp? Page=\Politics\archive\200010\POL20001004c.html

It's quite clear that Gore is prone to exageration and errors on ssome of his stories, in this case however, it looks more like Gore was given an exagerated story written by Jill Barton, and furthered by the father (Ellis). Even Barton's latest article about this matter making the debate is watered down so much, you can't tell by here article that the school president flatly states that the story is untrue or that there is even a national controversy over this.

Interesting to note that this school, while maybe overcrowded, does a good job teaching the kids:

The Sarasota County school district has drawn national attention before, but always for its high test scores and national ranking. So not all of Sarasota was pleased with Gore's mention of the school district's unacceptable class sizes.

Maybe, just maybe, all of our ills aren't from overcrowded public schools? ;)

Facts, oh so rare....

-- David (David@bzn.com), October 04, 2000.

Sorry, missed the first link. Here they are again: Jill Barton- Sarasota Newscoast story

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp? Page=\Politics\archive\200010\POL20001004c.html

-- David (David@bzn.com), October 04, 2000.

As the GOP seems all along the "Gore lied" theme, thought I'd just point out how Bush lied again ad again.

And we're not talking personal tales of woe, like the standing schoolgirl (whose dad, by the way, says Gore was right), or travel schedules. We're talking serious misrepresentation of his policies, or at least a misunderstanding of basic math:

1. Bush said Gore has outspent him, when he's spent half again as much on his campaign as Gore.

2. Bush took credit for an education program passed when Ann Richards was governor.

3. Bush said we could reduce dependence on foreign oil by getting it from Mexico -- the 51st state.

4. Bush said he couldn't get the FDA chief to overturn the abortion pill decision. In fact, he can and has said he'd order such a review.

5. He said there was no cutoff at 25,000 for his drug benefits, which there is. (In fact, most assistance is cut off at a lower cutoff level.)

6. Misstated the numbers for his tax cut (although there are various numbers for the impact, depending on who's studying it.)

7. Quoted a "Senate Budget Committee" opinion of Gore's plans, which actually came from Repubs on the committee.

My point: Both these guys have problems with stretching the truth. Bush has a record of misrepresentation about his past, his military record, his booze and possible drug use. Let's not pretend honest Abe is running.

-- Ron Ray (rronrray@yahoo.com), October 05, 2000.

Ron:

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. No one, and this is sad, gets to be in the position of either of the guys without being masters of hyperbole and gumbies with the truth.

Let's not talk character, okay? Let's not talk about restoring integrity to the white house with a republican. I have posted before and received no response to the fact that more members of the various reagan/bush administrations were indicted, over 100, than the clinton administration.

I get the biggest kick out of Bush supporters who harp on the "integrity" issue-do you really want me to believe that this poor little rich boy from a texas oil family is full of integrity? Folks, here is the honest truth, and I will say it loud and clear:

ONCE AN ALCOHOLIC ALWAYS AN ALCOHOLIC

I should know, being in recovery. And the point is, if Bush is not actively attendind some kind of recovery program, then he is just a dry drunk. I have known many dry drunks in my lifetime-people who put down the booze and do nothing to change. DRINKING AND DRUGGING ARE SYMPTOMS OF AN UNDERLYING PATHOLOGY.

Folks, a dry drunk is a terrible thing, and the weakness of character that led to bush's druggie lifestyle are still there. And guess what? There is no guarantee he will not relapse. Think of the pressures of the white house-it is entirely possible he can relapse. A bender of that nature can be quite dangerous. You all have to deal with it-he IS an addict, not WAS an addict.

I would want to be convinced that he is actively treating his addiction before I would vote for him(not that I ever would).

I:

Put those tea leaves in your pipe and smoke it. I do not need to read tea leaves to know the truth about either of these candidates. I may be wrong to question unk on his sources, BUT, this guy Bush is NOT any more of an angel than Gore. I would like to see you all who are harping on this respond to the points made by Ron.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), October 05, 2000.

FS, I believe that Bush is not just a dry drunk, as you put it. He continues to get help. But try this on for size.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/445397.asp

Sorry didn't do the link thing.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 05, 2000.

Here goes.

Gore's bio

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 05, 2000.

Well Future Shock, it would appear that the juice did a fine number on whatever brain cells you started off with. Dont assume that everyone that dabbled in drugs has the same weak character, as do you. Most have moved on with no problems so fight your demons but keep them to yourself.

Tarot cards???

How that I understand your lifelong handicap the rest of your ranting somehow makes sense, kinda.

-- I (h@ve.spoken), October 06, 2000.

Am I missing something or are we discussing the honesty of people running for any gov. office. As some stated elsewhere "Our political leaders are so drunk with power that they are pissing in public". Amazing that some people still believe truth in government exists. sheesh!

-- jkzsdfg2 (their@all.liars), October 06, 2000.

I-

Your ignorance is blaring more loudly then the seven trumpets of revelation. If you had even a rudimentary understanding of the disease of alcoholism(look it up in the DSM-IV-you know what that is. right?), you would know that alcoholics/addicts do not simply just move on. It is not a condition of the will that makes an addict, and it is not a strong will that keeps a person off the sauce. I suspect that Bush's relationship with his God is what has kep him sober so far. Before you pontificate about things you do not know, look in the mirror, and keep your ears open to hear the laughter from other people on this board-people laughing at your contention that I am weak of character and have destroyed my mind.

Because you cannot follow where my mind travails does not make it a damaged mind-one must wonder what you have done to yours that you cannot keep up. People who scoff at the metaphysical arts are people who have locked their spirits into a horrible prison of set responses to life-those who would profess themselves to be free are chained-and it is said that folks like you are in such deep denial of this-you have geneva syndrome(do you know what that is, I, you must, being of such strong character and intellectual prowess).

One more thing that shows what an intellectual, strong back-boned person you are-you made a choice to try to weaken my argument rather that to address BUSH'S lies. The thread was started over Gore's words- again I find it most fascinating that NO ONE has humbled themselves to come back to this thread and address this. WHY? Where are you all now?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), October 06, 2000.

correction-above should read "stockhom syndrome".

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), October 06, 2000.

try again:

Stockholm syndrome-yeah, that's it

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), October 06, 2000.

FS, first you put Bush down with this remark, "if Bush is not actively attendind some kind of recovery program, then he is just a dry drunk. I have known many dry drunks in my lifetime-people who put down the booze and do nothing to change. " and now you say, "I suspect that Bush's relationship with his God is what has kep him sober so far." Which is it, is he a "dry drunk" or has he change and found support from his God?

FWIW, FS, I believe in many "new age" priniciples but the cards and tea leaves are still a joke.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 06, 2000.

One other thing FS, Gore lied, Bush lied. We all know. However, Gore lied about insignificant things. Some may say well better that, eh? I say no. He could have very easily found an elderly woman who needed to collect cans for meds. But didn't, so he made up a lie. He could have very easily found a school with plaster falling from the ceiling. But he didn't, so made up a lie. He could have done a number of things to prove his points but didn't. Making up the lies needlessly makes him a man of low character. He has moved beyond just twisting the truth.

BTW, the article I posted states how he changes in the wind based on the polls, a lesson learned from his dad. More proof of a low character who doesn't stand behind his convictions.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 06, 2000.

Maria:

God alone cannot keep one sober, but it is an important building block. One can have a working relationship with a God and still go on a "dry bender". They are not mutually exclusive. There are many atheists sober in AA-you can stay clean without God, but you will not stay clean if you do not change. Change comes through working through spiritual exercises known as the 12 steps. In these steps one must face the defects of character and the shortcomings which were the main engine driving the addiction-one must make amends, continue to do daily inventories, and try to spread the message of sobriety to others-If George is not doing these things, he is bound to repeat the mistakes he made-I have seen dry alcoholics behave more badly sober than when drunk.

You cannot make something go away, you cannot nullify it, by saying it is a "joke"-I am sure you read my thread about the tarot reading. Do you want to address this specifically and tell me how this psychic is a joke? There is NO WAY she could have known-at the most basic, she was able to read my wife's inner thoughts-explain that phenomenon if you can. I like you Maria-our politics are the opposite of one another, but you are a good person. I think it below you to state that phenomenon you cannot explain are a "joke". If I remember correctly you were right about Y2K-so you do have an appreciable level of discernment. It would behoove you to not dismiss things out of hand for whatever reason you do. It is a fact-the tarot reader got a VERY intimate detail correct. Do the math, what is the probability, with twelve signs of the zodiac, that she could have come up with the Leo/Gemini connection in this case?

I am still waiting for someone to address Bush's lies. Why isn't anybody coming forward?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), October 06, 2000.

Maria:

If I were your husband, would you rather me lie to you about an affair or lie to you about throwing away your favorite shoes?

If you had to choose, would you choose the guy who lies about "important things"(affairs) or trivial things(your shoes-which can be replaced)?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), October 06, 2000.

Maria,

Please do factor in the issue of political handlers. Where is James Carvelle? certainly not helping Albert Gore as he did Bill Clinton. I miss JC personally. Stiffs dishing the stories to Albert are *bush league* at best.

We are all sick of the violins, at least most folks I know.

Major difference I see between the parties is the Republicans just pick the most Hayseed amongst them and use the candidate themselves as their "violin". Dems resort to the lame ass Jane Doe dog food stories for their Hayseed appeal.

Most Republicans know GWB is not the best they could offer. This point would hopefully sound one's "whatssss uupp?" alarms, but does it? Who is GWB? Agent of rich fat cats, is this a mystery? He has no answers because he is just the hayseed frontman for folks who would drill for oil in Yellowstone at the drop of the hat(Reagan ring any bells?). Folks who owe allegiance to one thing...money. They could careless what the average taxpayer, average American feels important. They do not live in the real world.

You want arrogance? How is Dick Cheney's voting record of late? Here is a man who barely even bothers to cast a vote. What is his record? 3 out of the last 12 or so voting even? Why would I vote for a ticket including this arrogant SOB?

Why would I vote for a Presidential candidate who would need assistance finding Kosovo on a world map? I wouldn't, but many would and thus the issue as it is always, comes down to who has more "hayseed".

Carter had it,,,Reagan had it...Bush Sr. had it...and Bill Clinton certainly has it. I think Al Gore lives or dies by the factor he "tones down" the rhetoric and loosens the tie. I think he will shine come the townhall debate format, time will tell.

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), October 06, 2000.

If I were your husband, would you rather me lie to you about an affair or lie to you about throwing away your favorite shoes?

Bush's lie does not equate to an affair and Gore's lie doesn't equate to shoes. Now if you want to talk about Clinton's lies When it comes to personal relationships, a lie breaks the trust and the relationship suffers from them. I don't tolerate any lies in my personal relationships. If fact, if I ever caught my children lying, they would be punished severely. If you are attempting to draw an analogy with the political candidates, then it depends on how much the one can tolerate. It's obvious that the American public tolerated a lot of lies with Clinton. I personally found that Clinton crossed a line. I can put up with a certain amount of spin or lies (and talk of these numbers is certainly making my head spin). I think I explained my opinion of Gore's lies and the foolishness of them. It's one thing to lie to cover up the truth, it's another to make up a lie just for the fun of it.

Motive is the question (more than just the insignificance of the lie). To put it in your analogy, if my husband told me he threw away my shoes and actually didn't, I'd have an even bigger problem with our relationship than if he just covered up the fact that he did something wrong. From these actions I am beginning to wonder why he felt the need to say these lies and how far will he go in the future in his lies.

In my mind, Bush's lies amount to spin and Gore has done his share of the spin too; I'm not reading any more into misrepresenting the facts.

On the other topic, no I didn't read your thread. I click on it, read the first three lines, then click the back button. I believe in a higher spiritual plane, that we have a hard time "seeing". But I don't believe that our behavior is governed by the placement of stars at the time of our birth. I don't believe that the draw of a card or tealeaf tells the future. I don't think these are tied to the spiritual world in any way but merely the luck of the draw.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 06, 2000.

maria:

I responded because I felt you were trying to "spin" that somehow Bush's lies were "better" lies than Gore's. My analogy was geared toward your statement that, becuase Gore "lied" about insignificant things, that somehow his lies were more egregious. You are going to have to do better than "Bush uses spin, Gore lies" as a response top address Bush's lies.

I must still press you to do the math, or someone else do the math. concerning probability that the tarot reader made a lucky guess. I was wrong before in stating the premiss-yes there are twelve signs in the zodiac, but since there are two people, one would have to guess A) the correct sender of the message B) the correct sign of the deceased. I would not know how to do the math, but the probability would seem rather small. Factor in not only the pure probability, but the "nature of the news(death)-and the proability becomes even smaller.

I do not believe the stars fate our actions, either. They speak to probabilities. Any astrologer worth a damn will tell you that the art is not a fatalistic art.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), October 06, 2000.

FS, I find them more acceptable that Gore's needless lies. I know that our school system sucks; I don't need to hear about a girl standing in her classroom to agree that facilities are a mess. This is something Gore didn't need to make up and he did. Sorry I can't explain it any better than that.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), October 06, 2000.