I want to know whether it is right for one to refuse medication and/or treatment to help with a very painful condition opting instead to offer the suffering to God, especially when one is young enough to make a difference in this world whatever his/her chosen field? Is is not better to get treatment and use the drugs that will provide relief if this will enable you to go on with your life and permit you to possibly make a difference to someone's life along the way?

-- Claire Reni de Cotret (crq@sympatico.ca), October 03, 2000

Answers

Honestly Claire I don't know the answer to this question. It's just about the hardest question there is, because it confronts us with the reality of the cross and what God did for us there. And that, of course (from a purely human persepctive) doesn't make sense.

Suffering is such a terrible thing. I think our first impulse (and why wouldn't it be?) is to say NO, make it go away. Jesus himself prayed that he didn't have to do that. I'm sure that Mary's heart just broke having to watch it. Certainly the rest of the disciples were UNABLE to watch it and actually ran away. Just as we usually do.

The cross is a terrible terrible thing. And the crucifixion is played out in such a literal way over and over right before our eyes. And no, we don't want to watch it either.

But there is also a terrible beauty to the cross, simply because Jesus is there, all the way there. God loves us so much that he is willing to make even suffering and death beautiful for us, and transform it (resurrect it) into Life itself. His life. This sounds very pious but actually I think it's the hardest reality that there is. It's enough to break your heart.

Jesus didn't have to stay there either. But love required it. Love so deep that it couldn't be any deeper. What are we to make of this? I don't know, honestly I don't know.

Jane

-- Jane Ulrich (carlos.eire@yale.edu), October 03, 2000.

Hi Claire- Having said this 12 hours ago I will now say that it also seems to me that we are responsible for using whatever means are possible to care for ourselves, in the same sense that we are forbidden to destroy or not to care for the good things that God has created, including our own selves. I think that this argument would be very possible to make. If we are care for others and love them "as ourselves" then somehow it seems to me that we would be obliged (except perhaps under very special circumstances) to make every effort to make reasonable use of all available remedies.

I'm sure the Church has a stand on this. And I imagine that it would tie in with allowing , for instance, the eldery to refuse medical treatment in order to be allowed to die. But I imagine that the Church would also tie it in with the right to life, and it's corollary- the insistence of the inherent dignity of life. It seems to me that the particular genius of the Church is it's ability to consider all sides of an issue like this, and to take a stand which does not falsly simplify it.

But I'm not sure exactly how. Anybody else know? John? Enrique? Eugene (where's Eugene anyway??)

Jane

-- Jane Ulrich (carlos.eire@yale.edu), October 03, 2000.

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Hi, Claire and Jane.

I was not quite sure about this question before looking into it. The Catechism does not address the refusal of painkilling medicine/treatment directly -- at least not as it pertains to a young, generally healthy person. The following paragraph is what I find in the Cathechism, and it refers to a person who is near death.
2278. "Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of 'over-zealous' treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one's inability to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected."

However, you make find helpful the following, from the Pontifical Council for Pastoral Assistance's "Charter for Health Care Workers" (1994):

Analgesia and anesthesia
68. Pain, on the one hand, has of itself a therapeutic function, because "it eases the confluence of the physical and psychic reaction of the person to a bout of illness," and on the other hand, it appeals to medicine for an alleviating and healing therapy.

69. For the Christian, pain has a lofty penitential and salvific meaning. "It is, in fact, a sharing in Christ's Passion and a union with the redeeming sacrifice which he offered in obedience to the Father's will. Therefore, one must not be surprised if some Christians prefer to moderate their use of painkillers, in order to accept voluntarily at least part of their sufferings and thus associate themselves in a conscious way with the sufferings of Christ."
Acceptance of pain, motivated and supported by Christian ideals, must not lead to the conclusion that all suffering and all pain must be accepted, and that there should be no effort to alleviate them. On the contrary this is a way of humanizing pain. Christian charity itself requires of health care workers the alleviation of physical suffering.

70. "In the long run pain is an obstacle to the attainment of higher goods and interests." It can produce harmful effects for the psycho-physical integrity of the person. When suffering is too intense, it can diminish or impede the control of the spirit. Therefore it is legitimate, and beyond certain limits of endurance it is also a duty for the health care worker to prevent, alleviate and eliminate pain. It is morally correct and right that the researcher should try "to bring pain under human control." Anesthetics like painkillers, "by directly acting on the more aggressive and disturbing effects of pain, gives the person more control, so that suffering becomes a more human experience."

71. Sometimes the use of analgesic and anaesthesic techniques and medicines involves the suppression or diminution of consciousness and the use of the higher faculties. In so far as the procedures do not aim directly at the loss of consciousness and freedom but at dulling sensitivity to pain, and are limited to the clinical need alone, they are to be considered ethically legitimate.

[If you want to know the sources of the internal quotations (papal and Vatican documents), I can provide them to you.]
God bless you.
John
PS: Jane, Eugene disappeared. Maybe I (or someone else) offended him. Recently, I sent him a private e-mail message, asking him to consider contributing to a certain thread, but he did not reply.

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), October 04, 2000.

IMHO the question here is tied with the Fith Commandment: Do not kill. We are not allowed to deprive people of their life, and besides we are not allowed to harm his health in any way. This applies to our own life and body: we cannot take our life or harm our health. Now, the tricky question is: if we suffer can we use medicines or any kind or treatmen? If we do, are we refusing to take part in the sufferings of Christ? There are two elements to consider: on the one hand we have a right to look after our good health, on the other we can accept suffering and join ourselves with Christ in the Cross. If we use the proper medicine and our health doesn't get any better, would that be a sign from God that He wants us to suffer? Maybe. If we don't use any medicine and decide to suffer for a high motive, are we breaking the Fith C.? I don't think so. What about the Medieval Monks who voluntarily used the "discipline" or other self-inflicting pains? Accepting suffering voluntarily or unwilling and offering it for our own and the world's salvation has merit in God's eyes. So it all may come to a personal decision.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), October 04, 2000.

Hi, Enrique.
You stated, "If we don't use any medicine and decide to suffer for a high motive, are we breaking the Fith C.? I don't think so."

I don't think that I can agree with you. I believe that the quotation from the Vatican document tells us that, for a person not near death, readily accessible and non-burdensome medicine/treatment can be omitted for a high motive, but only if that omission does not cause deterioration of physical or mental health. Such self-inflicted deterioration would be a violation of the Fifth Commandment, it seems to me.
You may be interested to read a footnote that is attached to one of the paragraphs I quoted above. This is from Pope Pius XII, and I'm having some difficulty understanding it. Perhaps you can help:
"The Christian is bound to mortify the flesh and apply himself to interior purification. ... Insofar as self-control and control of disordered tendencies cannot be acquired without the help of physical pain, this becomes a need and it must be accepted. But insofar as it is not required for this purpose [self-control? JFG], it cannot be said that there is a strict obligation for it [pain? JFG]. Hence the Christian is never obliged to desire it [pain? JFG]; he sees it as a more or less suitable means, according to the circumstances, to the end he is pursuing [self-control? JFG]" (Pius XII, To an international assembly of doctors and surgeons, Feb. 24, 1957).

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), October 04, 2000.

Sorry, Enrique, I meant to start by saying that I could not fully agree with you. (In other words, voluntary omission of medicine/treatment that does not result in physical/mental deterioration would seem to be licit, not contrary to the Commandment).
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), October 04, 2000.

Dear Jane, Enrique, and John:

I was asking the question because a friend I used to work with refused to take medication that could alleviate her pain and had decided instead to offer her pain to God. She was a devout catholic. Thankfully, her case was not severe.

I, on the other hand, suffered immensely, even though I was trying various medications for the pain and muscle spasms. Never in all of those years did I even think of offering my pain and suffering to God. My pain has been brought somewhat under control by the use of a number of medications, including strong narcotics. The only thing I regret is that I am no longer able to do the work I loved. I still feel pain on a daily basis because even with all of these drugs there is still pain. When the pain is bad, I increase the medications, but mostly it only serves to dull it and I have grown both weary and afraid of pain. Given these circumstances, an that pain be offered to God or, since I do try to get rid of it, would it not be considered a sacrifice?

By the way John, I worked for years in intense pain (between 7 and 8 on the McGill Pain Questionnaire, if you know of it, on a daily basis; I even managed to reach to 10 for a period > 6 weeks) and if I had not had my work on which to concentrate and in which I immersed myself, I think I would have gone mad. My work was rated as excellent throughout these years. The pain only seemed to sharpen my senses. I do know that I made a difference in some people's lives during that period and, if I could work again at the job I loved so much, I would do it in a minute. (My mind these days is not as sharp as it was and it takes me much longer to type something. Age or illness is catching up to me.)

I firmly believe that, had I not continued to work for so long after the pain started, I would be much more disabled today than I am and I would not have had the chance to make a difference.

-- Claire Reni de Cotret (crq@sympatico.ca), October 04, 2000.

Claire, all of your pain, whether in spite of medication or without it, whether you mean it or not, is an offering to God. Don't ever let anyone tell you any different. I'm willing to bet my life on this one.

This is not a question of nit picking whther this or that standard is met. If you are in pain, then it's also God's, whether you wish it to be or not. It's all his.

I say this with great sadness and heartbreak becuase I don't really understand this. And even talking about it really hurts. I can only imagine what it is like for you and others.

On the other hand there are all kinds of pain. Is a pain which just makes a person completely hopeless and despondent (like some sort of emotional hurt which is beyond dealing with) well -is that the same? I hope it has to be, becuase otherwise we'd just ALL have to jump off the roof.

I don't know, it's all such a big question. And life just hurts so much, in all sorts of ways. I guess we just have to believe that somehow it ALL (without exception) will be redeemed. Some days that's harder to believe than others, I know.

Love , Jane

-- Jane Ulrich (carlos.eire@yale.edu), October 04, 2000.

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Dear Claire,
It seems that what your friend did was truly heroic. Perhaps it went a long way toward her sanctification and toward the conversion/salvation of other souls, the release of souls from purgatory, and so forth.
You too are heroic "in my book." I am not familir with the McGill system, but I don't need to be familiar with it to understand that you have undergone much -- and continue to do so. (You wrote, "I still feel pain on a daily basis...")

I find it helpful to recall again and again that we who are baptized are, says St. Paul, the "Body of Christ." And so, your pain is mystically united (if you will it) with the pain of Jesus crucified. As God, everything Jesus has done has an eternal aspect to it, making it possible for you to unite your present pain with his "past" (but somehow "eternal") suffering. You suffer "in" him. You partake in his sufferings. Knowing this, we better understand what St. Paul told the Colossians:
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church..."

Jane, I mean this message for you too, as I have just noticed your request for prayer on a new thread. If it be God's will that the "cup" may pass away from you, let it be so -- else, may his will be done. I most certainly continue to pray for you.

May the Lord keep you both in his care.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), October 05, 2000.

Claire, Jesus was pretty clear on this topic. We are to comfort and care for one another If you are blessed with having medical care, then let those people do their good work. They are blessed when they care for others.

-- Billy Pilgrim (madhack@mail.md), October 05, 2000.

Dear Jane, Enrique, John, and Billy:

Thank you all for your answers and particularly to you John. You have answered the question with three words: if you will it. I will offer the pain which no amount of medication can get rid of to God.

Love,

Claire

-- Claire Reni de Cotret (crq@sympatico.ca), October 05, 2000.

If we look at the lives of many of the saints it is clearly seen that some suffering even the most extreme can be a good thing so long as one knows what one is doing and contributing for the sake of Our Lord. For instance look at the life of Blessed Padre Pio. Do I dare say anymore? Suffering is really on a "need to know basis". Each case is different.

-- Cory F. M. Graves (Gulferfer@aol.com), October 31, 2000.

Let us consider the beginning.

Imagine endless empty space that goes on into infinity non-existence no awareness EVIL.

If we consider the old saying life finds away. GOD came into being by his own will to be, the awareness. Born out of the non-existence the EVIL.

Imagine an awareness hovering in endless space or Darkness as HE would see it.

After a time his thoughts become collective and he begins to think. He is aware of himself and begins to wonder if there were another. After searching for countless billions of years, the loneliness consumes him into obsession with finding another. But there is no other but him. He splits into two separate entities (schizoid only for real) that are equal and opposite in nature. Light - that which creates (Life - the future). Darkness(SHE : Spirit that inhabits the Darkness- The past) - Destroys makes desolate. Each has the same goal to end the loneliness only they have diametrically opposite positions on how to go about it. Chaos vs. Order, Light vs. Darkness, Life vs. Death, Existence vs. non-existence or Good vs. Evil. GOD is the awareness of being before the Darkness. We stand between the Darkness and the Light. Our true purpose is to Be. For that is the will of GOD - to be because HE is. Ja'El they said. When GOD comes again if he comes into Darkness the Earth will be cleansed with the fire of GOD (His true form). If GOD comes into the Light he will make the Earth a new with the Tree and the River of Life. All things are possible if we believe. The power of the Holy Spirit is promised to us by Jesus Christ.

That is why no one has seen GOD because he became separate from himself. The two have to be united into their new form. They want to come and live us,their children and the Angles of Light and Darkness. We are the key to setting them Free from the loneliness forever. Revelation chap 17 Behold the Beast that was (EVIL or non-existence reined in the beginning there was no awareness) and is not (Evil- the tendency towards non-existence cannot exist in pure form) and yet is (If we lose our sense of awareness the EVIL will return and nothing will exist)

The River of Life is man's final salvation. The fruit of Tree of Life is for the Fallen Angles Consummation, Turn from Darkness back to the awareness of GOD. The Leaves are for the Healing of the Nations. The sword of Power blocks our way to it and blinds us from The one who was (The True GOD, the past) The one who is (Man the children of GOD, the present) The one who will be (Christ - the son of man, the future). We will become like the others and they will become like us. The evolution.

The way is through Awareness - GOD's will to be. Understanding is Knowing the Truth Understanding is Accepting the Truth The Truth leads to Understanding which leads to Awareness which strengthens our will to Be.

The Truth is put before us but, they do everything they can to keep us from Understanding it.

We have to show them that we are not children anymore. That we have learned to Understand the Truth. And the Truth shall set us all Free. They are counting on us and we can't let them down. But it is ultimately up to them to change - Free will.

Mystery? Who are you? Man who stands between the Darkness and the Light. What do you want? Freedom Why are you here? To bring order to chaos. Where are you going? The Future

The End of Time - The New Beginning

-- Darian Borne (shadows@vmbc.net), December 01, 2000.

Friends,

If you wish to converse with Mr. Borne, please go to the thread he started (and to which I responded). It is called, "I'm looking for intelligent opinions not blind lashings Thank you."
He posted the same message to start that thread.
Please do not respond to him here.

SN

-- Slave Nolonger (free@long.last), December 02, 2000.