Sorry if this gets long, and I hope it isn't a downer for a Monday.

Okay, so up here in Canada one of the most important political figures in our country's history has died. Pierre Elliot Trudeau was responsible for Canada's policies of multiculturalism and bilingualism, our Charter of Rights and Freedoms and our constitution. He also dated Barbra Streisand, married a hippy 30 years his junior, and liked flipping the bird to anyone who provoked him. Now, people are flocking to pass his (closed) coffin, leaving floral tributes (a single red rose was his signature), and all the news coverage features tag lines like "Pierre Elliot Trudeau, the final journey" "The Last Journey Home" etc. I don't know whether to be sad or retch. Did all the hysteria following Diana, Princess of Wales' give license for all of this drama. Is there a point where this all just becomes tacky? I understand paying respect to a great figure - but bringing toddlers and young children to a lying in state? I don't know...

-- Anonymous, October 02, 2000

Answers

Brief preface which might explain some of my views: my best friend died around the same time that Princess Diana died, and I was amazed at the number of people who broke down sobbing over Diana's death but never mentioned my friend (someone that they'd known, but not been close to) and seemed really uncomfortable when I brought her death up. That made me think a lot as to how people can react so strongly to the death of someone they've never met - and what I came up with is: because people make famous people into symbols (easy to do, Diana stood for land mine eradication, and you mentioned all of the things that people will remember Trudeau for), when those people die, people feel that something much more than one person has died. That is my magnanimous view of humankind. I'm sure there are some people who work themselves up into grieving fervor for other reasons, but I can't imagine what those reasons are.

-- Anonymous, October 02, 2000

I thought the Princess Diana hype and the John-John hype was outrageous. But then again, I've been in this weird (although mild) phase of worry ever since I saw David Bowie on SNL. If I cry for his death, it'll be because of all the times I listened to his songs, and the way his flamboyance shaped my view of the world. I would hope that I wouldn't care more about him than about someone I actually knew, though.

I think my generation hasn't yet gotten to the point where all our role models start dying of natural causes, and until that point, I can't really say how I'll react. And of the few celebrities who've died by accident recently, none were really important to me. So I try to hold back judgement.

-- Anonymous, October 02, 2000

Grief is a curious thing and there is no "right" way to grieve, but I was so stunned at the way people responded to John Kennedy's death. People clutching teddy bears and crying for CNN and Entertainment Tonight cameras and lamenting the loss of Camelot and how hunky John-John was, etc., saying how they came to pay their respects. It hardly seems at all respectful and I was thinking that if you TRULY respected Kennedy (or Diana, et al.) why not show your respect for their life and work by donating time or money to their causes? I read a psychologist explaining this public grief phenomena as being people's way of somehow aligning themselves to the event and the person - as if they are personally involved. It is hard to criticize people's displays of grief without coming off as being totally heartless, but Kate, I agree, some of this stuff really smacks of "tacky" and completely self-serving under the guise of caring. That being said, I cried hearing about John Denver's death - my first love (blush) ... his posters adorned my locker in Junior High. I guess we feel these celebs have affected us and are (somehow) a part of our lives and experiences... of course, I refrained from showing up in Aspen at the funeral with a flower wreath bearing a ribbon with the words "Far Out" written in glitter. .

-- Anonymous, October 02, 2000

I was really shocked and upset over JFK Jr.'s death. And Jackie's- but I have a bit of a Kennedy fixation, which I at least recognize as being a bit irrational.

And I was recently deeply saddened about the death of Frank Wills, the guard who discovered the Watergate burglars. Mainly because he didn't get rewarded at all for it, and it made me sad to think that he had played such a pivotal role in history and then been totally neglected.

-- Anonymous, October 02, 2000

I think a lot of it has to do with the historical angle... lookit all the hype about "where were you when JFK/John Lennon died"...? It's almost like a bandwagon thing, where you can be part of something Big and Important like that, participate in national (or worldwide) grieving. That's not to take away from the losses themselves... I admit it, I was ripped up when Diana died, because I'd loved her since Day One and had all the cheesy books about the wedding and, two weeks before her death, we'd been in London and taken all of these "Look, Princess Di's house!" and "Look, Princess Di's gym!" pictures, etc. But what was really amazing -- surreally so -- was the world-wide mourning when she died. Yeah, there were people genuinely grieving and in shock, but there were also a lot of people who were just wanting to be Part of It All. (At least, that's what I think.)

I think several of the "celebrity" deaths since then HAVE, as Kate said, been modelled on that historical event of Diana's death and funeral and everything's been taken to extremes... this notion of Mass Mourning... the "paying tributes" by piling flowers on doorsteps... the bawling for TV cameras... kinda like how talk shows have gone from healthy and helpful things 'way back when to free-for- alls like Springer et. al. now But that's another subject.

-- Anonymous, October 02, 2000

Most of you probably weren't even born during this period of America's history, but I remember when John John stood saluting his father's casket. It was his second birthday (I think) and his father had been shot and killed in full public view. This simple act of respect by John stood for the lost innocence of America. If you remember that time, how can you not mourn for the lost childhood? For a new marriage that seemed so right for a change?

I also mourned for Diana; it seems her second chance for happiness was lost while she was way too young.

I think as you get older, death of young people have a greater affect on you (at least it does for me) because you are more aware that death is forever and ever. Amen. When you are young, death is too far away to be real.

-- Anonymous, October 02, 2000

Unfortunately, for me, death has lost a lot of it's shock value if it's someone I didn't personally know. The only deaths that affect me of people I don't know are children and the very young. If it's someone I knew and loved, and the death wasn't natural, my grief usually takes the form of anger...sometimes rage. There are some situations where the dead are the lucky ones, but I'll bet few people consider those situations.

-- Anonymous, October 02, 2000

While I do believe that the public spectacle of grieving is taken too far by the media, I don't really think that Trudeau's death falls into the same category as Diana or JFKJr. There has been a lot of coverage, and a fair amount of retrospective, but I wouldn't consider it excessive. Canadians don't have a lot of cultural heroes in this fashion, and I have found the public outpouring of grief or, at least, respect, after Trudeau's death to be extremely touching.

Canadians are not a demonstrative people - and to see that crowd of onlookers today burst spontaneously into O Canada watching Trudeau's coffin being loaded into the hearse by the Mountie honour guard brought tears to my eyes. There will always be people who take this sort of thing too far, unfortunately, but not all public grief is unwarranted.

-- Anonymous, October 02, 2000

I don't understand most public outpourings. I know it's a cultural thing, but I still don't get it.

I think Diana's death was so moving to so many because of the loss her death came to represent. Yes, she was a symbol and that's part of it. For me, I remember where I was when I learned of Diana's death and I was attached to the TV for the rest of that long night. It was sad to me, even though I've never been anything near a "royal watcher", because of what was lost: there was a certain quality of hope, perserverance, and optimism about her, a certain class and civility (at least in the public view). I value these things and I need to see concrete examples of them - and here was one such example that was taken away.

On the other hand, I wasn't aware of any redeeming qualities about JFK Jr., other than the fact that at least he wasn't a politician. But it seemed that the attention, the maudlin hysteria over it in the public and most especially in the news media, the sheer hype, were not warranted. It must be due in some part to a combination of Kennedy-ness, the fascination with which I will never be able to grasp, good looks and business success.

-- Anonymous, October 02, 2000

It must be near John Lennon's death 'cause I flipped through some late-night documentary giving all the gory details from first-hand people. It is sad when someone who has touched so many lives dies. Diana's death really sucked. But we all touch people and have a place in this world. Look at sweet and brillant Gwen, may she live long and prosper!!! When I was a teenager, a friend was killed by a drunk driver and that had a profound effect on my life. I was totally appalled at the news the other night 'cause they showed a 12 year old, shielded by his pledding father, get killed in the West Bank. They said not to watch, duh me. Children get me the absolute worst. One of my favorites saying, to inject a little humor, is "the more you complain, the longer God lets you live."

-- Anonymous, October 03, 2000

I was totally ripped up when Diana died. Part of it had to do with the fact that I'd become fascinated with her when I was four years old, and watching her funeral on TV, I kept thinking how she was barely 20 years old when she got married, with a billion people watching, and she had no idea what she was getting herself into. And then, 16 years later, a billion people tune in to watch her funeral. It just all seemed really tragic, and I felt so bad for her sons. I don't buy into the idea that she was a perfect person or that she didn't manipulate the press or whatever, but it still makes me sad if I look at websites dedicated to her or whatever.

Not that I've ever done that, of course. No way, no sir.

-- Anonymous, October 03, 2000

I agree that the public's grief in Trudeau's case is quite different from Diana/JFKJr. This man actually had a tangible effect on many people's lives and people seem to mourn his death as a passage of an era in Canada. The family has made sure that all of the arrangements have been fairly simple and dignified - even I choked up this morning when the casket was preceded out of Montreal's City Hall by a single red rose. It is the media getting all maudlin and stirring things up that gets me - one reporter, while talking to his ex-wife Margaret, reminded her that yesterday would have been the 25th birthday of their youngest son (killed a few years ago in an avalanche). She collapsed, the network had to make a public apology - pretty bad.

Anyway, as an aside - I hear that there has been absolutely no coverage in the American news. What's up with that? Trudeau was our best-known Prime Minister, (Jimmy Carter is one of his pall bearers, Fidel Castro's attending the funeral, as is Prince Andrew). You'd think he'd get a few sentences here and there. Ah well.

-- Anonymous, October 03, 2000

Oh Vicki, way to get me thinking about A World Without Gwen. :-(

And I saw that footage last night of the 12 year old getting killed in the Israel/Palestine unrest. That was horrible. :-(

-- Anonymous, October 03, 2000

Ouch! I didn't hear about that reporter saying that to Margaret Trudeau. That's disgusting.

I'm watching the funeral as I type this - the CBC coverage today has been very tasteful. I'm glad to see this is still possible, although I honestly wonder what depths it will all sink to in twenty years or so.

-- Anonymous, October 03, 2000

I'm not a huge Kennedy fan, but I was amazed at how sad I was when JFK Jr. Died. I wasn't let-me-go-to-his-apartment-sad, but it just struck me as very sad. Same as Princess Diana, I guess cause they were both young and I felt badly for their families. But I think I'd feel that way about anyone that died like that.

-- Anonymous, October 03, 2000

I've noticed that what really moves me is how different events bring people together. That sounds so cliche. What I mean is the kind things that regular people do when extraodinary things are happening. For example, the thing that really started making me choke up about Diana's funeral, was seeing the hearse driver at the end of the slow drive, before he got on the highway (I think it was a highway) carefully take armloads of flowers from the bonnet so he could see, and carefully place them on the grass. He really took such care to be respectful of regular people's tribute. That was what got me.

-- Anonymous, October 03, 2000

i know she did'nt die but i cryed so hard when kathie lee left live!!! :( it was soooooooo sad. imiss her on that show

-- Anonymous, October 03, 2000

"CANADIANS ARE NOT A DEMONSTRATIVE PEOPLE"?? I know things can get dull in the Great White North, Susan, but let me assure you (speaking as someone who has gone to the Calgary Stampede and partied later)the Canucks can be as demostrative as anyone. I was in a bar with this other rube from Texas when these two Canadian gals got half full of Moosehead and started tearing each other's clothes off. Nobody stopped it, just gave them plenty of room. Then this big Mountie comes in, looks around, hitches up his pants and goes: "SO!...What's this all aboot, aye?" You had to be there.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

I was quite aggravated by the non-stop coverage of Diana's death and JFK Jr.'s death. When there's nothing new to report, stop hammering it in. That trend started with O.J., or at least it seemed to.

But I can understand public grief. Twice I've felt it, the first time when the space shuttle exploded, and then the Oklahoma City tragedy. The space shuttle explosion was a shock to my naive belief in the last "pure" goal we had as a nation. And Oklahoma City was an act of outrage, US citizens killing our own children in the name of ideology, something I'd never really thought would happen here.

But celebrities? I don't cry for celebrities. There's too many other causes to spend my emotions on.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

It's weird, if it weren't for this thread I'd never have heard that this Trudeau person died. And I listen to the news on the radio all the time, not just American news but the BBC world service.

-- Anonymous, October 05, 2000

While disappointed, I'm not terribly surprised that Trudeau's death/funeral didn't get a lot of foreign coverage (he stepped down in 1984). If the American news had shown his funeral, the public would've seen footage of Jimmy Carter joking with Fidel Castro (who was cheered when he showed up - he also imposed 3 days of national mourning in Cuba). Not good for an election year. Trudeau's ex-wife Margaret is probably better known in the states: she supposedly became a Stones groupie, hung at Studio 54, had an affair with - I think - Robert Redford (or some star of similar stature), and was immortalized in Geraldo Rivera's autobiography when he recalled her going down on him in a canoe or something - so much for the dignity of the first lady eh? Yup, some of us Canadian girls are far from reserved. As for BBC, well, Prince Andrew was at the funeral (second stringer anyone?), but he was in the country on some official stuff anyway, so the timing was right. Since the funeral was in an RC Church, I doubt the Queen herself would've showed anyway.

-- Anonymous, October 06, 2000