Hello,

Well... it finally happened, my santuary is going to be invaded by the adjoining property owner selling his timber to a logging company to clear cut. Now i can't say too much as we bought our farm after it was clear cut. But... i have concerns about what my rights might be. i have contacted my lawyer but they are not even sure, will get back to me tomorrow. a spring that runs through that property into ours feeds our well... so i guess that means I will have muddy water for starters. I am also concerned about them cutting down trees and them fallin on our property and fences. Does anyone have any experiences with this and/or what our rights might be? any ideas as to where to find out on line or what govt agency to start with? any help would be greatly appreciated. i am located in VA. Thanks.

Bernice

-- Bernice Raymond (geminigoats@yahoo.com), September 28, 2000

Answers

Logging companies have been known to back out of contracts with private owners when the property seems jinxed or haunted. Some woods have dark spirits that walk threw them. Some of these spirits have been known to cause massive equipment failures--expensive ones--ones logging operations cannot afford. Some properties have voices that seem to talk to loggers in whispering winds. Sometimes sounding as if bullits passed inches from their ear. Sometimes, Copperhead Snakes themselves have over run these areas that loggers wish to destroy.

There are such men in Virginia that seem to know and speak to these spirits. These are men of great solice who do not speak on telephones or in letters but can be spoken to in the woods we all love. Perhaps, if all else fails, they could fix your problem ? I know they would like to help. Good Luck, my friend !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 29, 2000.

I would start by talking with the logging co. Tell them about your concerns and see how it goes. The logging co. that will be clear cutting next to our land had no problem with our questions. If a tree that they cut falls on your fence they should repair it. That was what I was told. If you have a logging co. that does not care about your questions and concers then I would pull out the phone book and start calling. If one govt agency can't help call another. Good Luck!

-- Vanessa Weese (sdancers@nr.infi.net), September 29, 2000.

Just a thought. You might be able to use that spring that feeds your well to your advantage.

-- j (jw_hsv@yahoo.com), September 29, 2000.

The property next to a friend of ours here was logged last year. The "driveway" to our friends house is technically a public right-of- way, so he had to let them use it for access (it's a town road that was surveyed but never put through). They decked logs on his property in exchange for him (and us) getting firewood out of it, made an awful mess which they didn't clean up. They also tore his road to pieces and he just about had to go to court to get them to fix the damage -- they were going to "let" the town take care of it, since it's a town "road" but of course since the town doesn't actually have a road there, it would never have gotten fixed. (Also of course, the town got taxes on the timber sold, which money went into the town coffers rather than paying for work on the road!) I have to add that I'm all for logging, done right -- my Dad was one for much of his life, and many, perhaps most, will be responsible -- but make sure you keep a close eye on them!

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 29, 2000.

Whatever you do, think carefully before considering Joel's cowardly solution.

-- Don (hihilldon@yahoo.com), September 29, 2000.

Ummm...we know folks who have lived steward-like and responsible lives who have always depended on selling some of their timber to finance either the kids college educations, or their retirement. I don't know what it's like where you all live, but I would hate to see anything un-toward come to the folks that we know or others like them. I am as big a tree-hugger as anyone in many ways, but these folk just look at it as harvesting their crop...kind of like corn, only it takes 40-50 years to grow...just about as long as they've been stewarding it through the generations that their family has owned the property...

That said, there is a lot of responsibility in clearing the land, ecologically, and to the community at large. Hopefully, that will be met by your neighbors. I have personally seen the destruction that bad logging can do. Good idea to talk to them and let them know you are keeping an eye on them!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), September 29, 2000.

Thanks... I really appreciate all the kind thoughts and suggestions. i will definately call the logging company just to touch base and ask a few questions. i only can hope and pray that the logging company is responsible. By the way i found out they have purchased the property as well. I am going to try to negotiate with them to purchase it and then take on the responsibility of clearing it if i can pick it up for 200-300 an acre. It won't be worth anymore. I have to say this, in the boonies it doesn't matter how they log as nobody sees it but we have to live with the consequences of it. I also know my property value will now decrease as well because of this. And not to mention the ecological impact after tehy harvest if they just go in and destroy it. i have seen lots of trees cut down as in the case with our land left to rot. Not to mention the copperheads and mocassins will be felling for their lives and on the defense so that means they will be biting anything in their way as they are threatned. Now I will have to deal with them and I hate to have to; but If i must, I will..... as we have a small grandchild and animals. Then there are the concerns of our driveway and so on being sestroyed not to mention a one lane dirtroad that if they block it with their trucks I won't be getting to work on time either. I think one morning with no coffee will cure that for them... I am a wild woman in the morning with no caffine:):):) But thanks again and i'll keep you posted on the developments of this saga. Oh and joel, think I will start talking to those "men" soon

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), September 29, 2000.

My uncle is/was a logger, he is semi-retired. They have a contract in the national forest to thin the trees. This is a great method of logging ! No erosion, no clearcut--everyone profits--animals, loggers, paper mills, and furniture manafacturers !

Sheepish makes a good point of--owners using their equity as savings. Point well taken ! I'm sure the "spirits" would have addressed that issue, positively sure ! Bernice has stated that this is not the case. It will be clear cut--profit taken--land sold at high profit to speculators(theives).

So some wonder how to stop it ? And that makes me a coward ? So be it ! I'd rather be labeled a coward that acted (be it right or wrong), than a fool that ate all his resources for greed and left his grandchildren to starve. This is the land I dwell on, neither you or myself own it. You will respect it, even if I am jailed or killed schooling you on that fact. Count that as a promise !

Forgive my lanquage but --You bitch when I stop from cutting the forest but you'll bitch no more when you've cut so many that you can't breath !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 29, 2000.

Hey....... I just remembered something that I think may stop the logging... not sure though. i was walking along the road a few yrs ago and noticed some very pretty orchids and discovered some lady slippers. i had to have one but remembered they were on the protected list. then 2 weeks later i read in the Sat Richmond paper gardening section they were endangered and protected. Now my question is; if there is a species of plant or animal on a protected piece of property does this make a difference? I am calling the st envior folks on Monday to find out. I also want to express that i am NOT AGAINST logging, just the methods used, in this case its rape when you clear cut. If i were to purchase a timber investment I would also consider logging it to be enviornmentally "friendly" But again, to each their own here. I just pray my poor farm and neighborhood survive. I am going to call the logging co. on Monday. I'm praying its a friendly discussion where we can agree. The logging company that clear cut our farm just after we bought it, (we had a timber reserve when we signed so we got it cheap for that reason) anyways, they were great to work with and preserved and saved a lot of trees. Also.... there are probably a lot of old slave graves on the parcel to be logged as well..... our older neighbor told us the family stories and pointed out the graves. There is also a old house on the parcel too, about 1700 with a beautiful stone chimney. All I can say is this all will be very interesting as it happens.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), September 29, 2000.

Now, there is a good point ! That house sounds like it might fall in the historical catergory ! Find the local historical society and try to file an injunction. That works ! Good Luck !!!!!!!!

Daughters of the Confederacy is a good one !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 29, 2000.

Our state recently passed legislation requiring traing for loggers, and various water quality standards, like required buffer strips. Just came into effect in July.Of course, our neighbor logged in June, bc everyone was told the government wouldn't let you log your property after july, and alot of fools believe what they're told.

Anyway check with your Division of Forestry to see if your state has something similar.Ours does not control harvest technique,i.e. clearcut & highgrade still can be done, just not where it affects water quality.

Now, less you think our esteemed legislators enlightened, this is same ones that defeated a bottle bill, again, despite public support. And to top it off,pass a bill allowing four wheelers on state & county roads: there are perimeters only allowing them to travel two tenths a mile to farm worksite,which I'm OK with, but now all our outlaw neighbors think they can go where they please, even more than before. Even the sargent of State Police told us they "technically" can. But then that's a whole 'nother story. Well,"technically", not on our watch! But,I digress.

Anyway on possible endangered, check with your Native plant program,prob with state fish & wildlife, and Nature Conservancy. Both prob. have native plant botanist that can provide more info. Our state does, anyway.

Finally, for those that jumped on Joel's back- No offense meant, but maybe get a sense of humor? My husband and I chuckled heartily over his woodswraith fable. Of course, Nick worked in prison system for 30+ years, and I worked alone in the woods talking to trees, so it's not unlikely that we have a bit of an odd sense of humor. Or maybe you don't have worthless goodfornothing sneak thief neighbors like mine, or perhaps haven't read Terry Brooks Running with the Demon series. Well,I digress again. Again ,no offense

-- Sharon WT (wildflower@ekyol.com), September 30, 2000.

This advice is equally valuable when dealing with any "contractors" that are using your property or accessing your roads. Always tell them before they start, in a friendly manner, that they will not be "allowed" to leave, without restoring property to original or better condition. NEVER let loggers or drillers get by with "we'll fix it when we leave".

An oil company used half mile of my private road to carry a drilling rig into a location site. I caught them the day they were leaving and they said they'd fix the road. They left three foot ruts in the road and never fixed it. 4 years later, they brought a workover rig in to work the well. I told em, you bring it across my road, you'll never get it out, except by helicopter. Impossible. They brought the rig in anyway, without any agreements. I told them they wouldn't get it out without gravelling the road. "Oh, we'll fix it when we leave" NOPE. I told them about some hand loaded hard cast .44 bullets that I'd been using to bust up Cummins diesel engines. They got the message, and gravelled the road.

Loggers burned me too on messing up roads. Last time they accessed my road, I set the shotgun on my pickup hood, walked over and told em that five loads of gravel would be stockpiled before they logged. They complained, but it was the cost they'd pay before travelling my road...they finally got on the radio, and my iron ore gravel was delivered. Unfortunately, I wasn't there when they left...they were supposed to have spread the gravel, and they didn't. But at least I got the gravel.

AND, loggers fix the fence. Tell them that beforehand, and monitor their progress. If they knock down a fence, tell em before they leave. Most folks hereabouts wont cut a tree if they fear they'll have to clean up the mess and fix a fence.

-- phil briggs (phillipbriggs@thenett.com), September 30, 2000.

Bernice: Lots of great suggestions here. I can only add; Do Not! Run across the lane, and climb a small mt., to 200 ft. at 5:30am, in your robe and slippers screaming at the loggin crew that they are interfering with your quaility of life. My cousin pulled that beauty in VT. The crew called parametics....., her husband came up............etc. it was ugly. Yes, they were interfering with her quality of life working at 5:30 am, and yes, she a legit gripe. After speaking with the forman of the 'job', they agreed to a start time of 7. Whew! That must have been some cuppa caffa!

-- Kathy (catfish@bestweb.net), October 02, 2000.

Hello I own a timber cutting business www.ssmfg.com/timber and if someone has a question I always make sure I take all the time necessary to answer all there questions in a calm manor! No need to make anyone mad at my company or any other logging companies. We also make sure that when we leave the job site that everyone involved in this is happy and pleased with what we did. Thats the only way to get referrals. We would love to give you a quote on your timber if you live in Ohio Take Care Richard Spencer, Pres.

-- richard spencer (rich@spencomfg.com), February 10, 2002.

Dear bernice i really feel bad for you i live in humphreys co tn. most of our county has been clear cut it looks like a war zone my biggest concern now is our water many of my frinds wells are testing possitive for ecoli amoung other things i get my water from a spring and am now boiling my water and buying bottle water. i believe that we should have a say in what happens to the surrounding land when it effects every one. but i to am not sure where to turn for help i understand where jole is coming from some times the only thing that gets their att. is to hit them where it hurts them most and thats in their pockets.but i do belive if enough of us stand together they will have to change their policy. if any one out their has any ideas i would like to hear them also

-- Betty s Lynn (blynn@waverly.net), February 18, 2002.

First thing I'd do is go and flag the property line. Don't depend on the logging company find the boundary. Next I'd get a good camera. Take it with you when you go introduce yourself to the logging company. Take lots of before and after pictures. They may come in handy. good luck Bernice

-- jz (oz49us@yahoo.com), February 18, 2002.

Thanks for the responses. Boy, this sure was along time ago it seems. We ended up selling our farm after the logging company decided to sell the property, great deal, for a cut over war zone it was 1,000 per acre. I laughed. Then a developer from Fla showed interest and I figured it was time. The dairy regs had changed also in VA so it was no longer conducive to do our goat dairy there.

We are much happier now in arkansas at our new ranch and logging is restricted pretty much here.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), February 18, 2002.

I do not want to pick on you, Betty Lynn - if this looks like it, I mean it in a friendly manner. :)

But, why should you be able to tell people what they do on their property? If you want to control the woods in 2 miles in all directions from where you live, then buy it. If you don't own the other land, why should you have a right to control what happens there?

Yes, pollution should not be allowed, and really bad practices, and all that. But, I don't understand why _you_ should be able to dictate what happens on property you do not own. Do you allow the timber companies to tell you what you should do with your land? Why should you tell them what to do with theirs?

The other problem is that your message sets up the timber companies as 'the bad guys'. Don't you build things from wood? Don't you read papers & magazines? Don't you consume wood products every day? I do. The timber company is not _the bad guy_. It is you & I, who use wood. We are the ones driving the industry. We _demand_ wood. Every day.

The timber company cuts down the trees. But that does not make them the great evil. They are just doing our work for us.

Some things to think about. Again, I take the direct appoach when I write, but I do not mean this to be against youn at all. Just some thoughts.

--->Paul

-- paul (ramblerplm@hotmail.com), February 18, 2002.