Is this censorship?greenspun.com : LUSENET : TB2K spinoff uncensored : One Thread |
A few days ago, Andy Ray had this to say in his "Heroes and Cowards" thread:"I believe those who were literally persecuted for their right-ness deserve the most credit, though I will exclude myself from their esteemed company. And those individuals are the people whose names can still be found proudly displayed in red lettering at the Hysterium"
I say that the 4 people in the "red letter" club were banned because of their continued efforts to disrupt the forum, not because of their views.
This is from the Kitco gold discussion forum:
"PLEASE NOTE: On Monday, June 19,2000 several handles had their posting privileges removed due to the disruptive content of their messages. If you read any further postings that appear to have been made for the purpose of disrupting the group, please don't respond to the author. Instead send an email to info@kitco.com with the handle, date & time of the post. We will try our best to deactivate the accounts as soon as possible."
So tell me, what is different from what is going on at Kitco, and what went on at the old TB2K?
-- (nazi@forum.moderators?), September 19, 2000
No one has the right to disrupt. Some how people think they have the right to cause others grief and aggravation. It's like having cigar smoke blown in your face and when you complain about it, your accused of taking someone else's freedoms away. There's no difference in what happened at Kitco and TB2000. I've been on several sights where people were banned and password's were issued to prevent obnoxious people from ruining the board.
-- ~~~~~~ (~~~~@~~~~.xcom), September 20, 2000.
I agree with your statement completely "xcom". But I do believe that the moderators at TB2K took it further than simply banning/moderating the disruptors, as other forums all over the net would do. As Hmm showed in this thread where he linked to threads on the Old TB2K demonstrating the dinamics that took place that forced people to toe the line or else.
-- (smarty@wannabe.one), September 20, 2000.
Forums are the property of those who start and moderate them. Can't understand how that has been such a tough concept around here for so long. Particularly puzzeling is that the few who scream the loudest would otherwise seem the type that would be first to defend property rights to the last man.
-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), September 20, 2000.
"Forums are the property of those who start and moderate them." ??? Carlos the Blanko sayeth.Try the BS that EY tolerated on Yahoo or other "free" sites and see how fast they are shut down. Individual posters are blocked on first "abuse" complaints after review.
YOURDON's FORUM was on a partially TAX SUPPORTED FACILITY at an Academic Institution. HE DID NOT "OWN IT". PERIOD. He.......USED IT and the deluded and Intellectually VOID like Carlos still don't have a clue.
-- Banned Person (NonPerson@EZbanned.edu), September 20, 2000.
Banned Person, I completely disagree with you. Lusenet forums such as this one are operated by Phil Greenspun, with his own money. Further more, Phil implicitely gives the right to anyone to start a forum on his system, and to censore it, manage it, and moderate it as they see fit. Phil himself has ultimate control over all the forums on Lusenet. The beauty of it all is that when people don't agree with a forum owner and what's going on in it, they can start their own to voice their opinions. This very forum (Spinoff) that was started after Yourdon moved to another more controled forum. It could, and should, have been started long before then by anyone.But it would have been deemed just another Debunky by the TB2K dwellers(as those who still dwell only on Ezboard say it is.) Whoever has the most charisma, wins.
-- (smarty@wannabe.one), September 20, 2000.
Bottom line is MIT was host for a major BS center of Y2k. Even after repeated requests to "look into" the insanity and conflicts of interest, the administration did zero.About the good-olde-boy network, and technical naivete, not Free Speech. The problem with hosting a TB or any other forum is silent endorsement. Against MIT stated policy Phillip Greenspun used the MIT name thru his email address on TB2000. Is there a better stamp of approval?
Doubt all this, read their own policies and get back to us. NOT even debatable this crap.
-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), September 20, 2000.
One will also note this forum software now does not use the mit.edu email address. Although it is still running on MIT based servers and over the MIT infrastructure.
-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), September 20, 2000.
and another tidbit.Show of hands,,,who actually thinks Ed and Co went willingly over to ezboard? Features my butt, about phone calls in the middle of the night recommending that Ed and his minons take their "discussions" elsewhere.
-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), September 20, 2000.
Use of Institute NamePolicy on the Use of Information Technology
Stan Faryna ring a bell? Do the bestselling books, Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing or TimeBom b2000 ring any bells? The whole original point of TB2000 was to promote Ed Yourdon's Literary Road Apple for crying out loud. Does any of this sound like they were not using the MIT infrastructure to run businesses? Prep Forums?
TB2000 was prepping central. No one knows how many of the regular's were just hucksters, I have my opinion.
-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), September 20, 2000.
In looking back on Y2k, many of us are left with the opinon Y2k was more about this medium than any supposed risk from a date issue in computers.This webboard for instance did not become Y2k central by accident. It is friendly to the way most access the web. Few if any graphics, thus it loads fast. Conversation is on one page and thus fast again as one has but one page to load to read the whole thread. Unfortunately this format also leads to a chatroom environment with many replies off the top of one's head. Vast majority of postings would not stand alone using any standard, they are chatter. "ya dude I hear ya" now that is really helpful.
The anonymity afforded here plays into the belief and desire of many to be anonymous. Again leading to chatter and claims which if one was visible, would likely not happen. It also allows many to operate businesses and sound like they are your concerned neighbor as who is to really know? How is one to know "worried@thisboard.com" may just be Jack of Jack's Generator's inc?
Many will not read anything past 2 scrolls of a browser window, if that. Why? not so much they are easily bored or uninterested, but more because of a fear their ISP will disconnect them due to lack of activity. This leads to shallow research at a minimum. Y2k while not that difficult, required more than one-liners from North and company to grasp fully.
In trying to understand why one may have been wrong on Y2k, do not fail to include the factor of the medium. I personally think Y2k was about the failures of this medium, computers with date issues was but a part of it.
-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), September 20, 2000.
How the Doc really feels about all this.=================================================================== =
Thanks MIT for looking the other way and supporting your own Terrorist Breeding ground, Thanks!
[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ back to main page ] [ FAQ ] Posted by (209.170.209.65) Doc Paulie on December 10, 1999 at 07:59:00:
In Reply to: ...........F.B.I...... .....warns of OTHER...DANGEROUS GROUPS posted by cpr on December 10, 1999 at 05:27:48:
OUTSTANDING posts Charlie! If Timebomb2000 is NOT a cult, I am a monkeys uncle.
In fact, most of this dumb-ass Y2k issue is about some really sick and noisy losers who will not, cannot, and do not want to be part of anything but their own deaths. They are on a suicide mission, no different than a Jihad kook or Kamikazee pilot from WWII. Not all, but only a fool would believe some around the doomer fringe are about anything more than revolution.Ed Yourdon you are a FOOL. Michael Hyatt you are DISGUSTING. Gary North you are a treasonist WHORE. Rest of um are coat-tail opportunists on the road to HELL.
Ain't about discussing Y2k impact and sensible emergency preparations, about SICKNESS. Has always been, like we been telling you people. In fact I will go on record here and flatly state the Columbine shootings were Y2k/Millennium inspired. Did so 2 days after they took place, and NOTHING has changed my mind. BTW, where are the parents of Harris and Klebol hiding?
As anyone with a functioning brain knows, the powers that be spin. There is no better example than these now "leaking" terrorist stories. This type of thing is PAR for THE COURSE and are ONGOING. Few are now being exposed publically for obvious strategic reasons. Unfortunately since many in our society pay lip-service and lack a backbone to say NO to this crap, we have to have an FBI/Government which must play the PR game/the toss your rights out the window game in the interest of the greater good game.
No better example of irresponsible behavior exists than the hosting of TimeBomb2000 by MIT. MIT is blind-stupid-and PART of the problem. They will not even follow their own rules, and can muster only lame retorts having zero to do with anything but kissing Phil Greenspun's butt. MIT you are a JOKE, a FARCE, and contributing to yet more of what you claim to be about, less freedom. You POLICE, or THEY will...GET IT? no you don't and sadly few do as most have been brainwashed by the Rush Dumbos and Mikel Reagan yaps of this world. What a disgusting lot most of you are. Lest you be confused, the Left has its' group of pussy hand-holders and whiners as well.
Most of you are not ready to be FREEMEN, you WANT to be slaves. If you be looking outside for your freedom, you be lost. Revolution starts within. How long you gunna remain a loser? How long you going to grant Bill Clinton power over areas of your life? How long it gunna take for you to understand the powers that be have no power which you have not handed over to them by your stupidity?
How long? How many more fellow motorists are you going to finger instead of turning the other cheek and remaining in your center? How many more? How many more wives are you gunna need? How many more beers? How many more guns or rounds of ammo is it gunna take before you admit they are needed since you are a scared empty pile of bile? My guess is a ton more.Do me one favor though, don't call yourself Christians, you have not a clue about that, trust me.
-- (on@the.record), September 20, 2000.
When Phil "took TB2000" down, he asked for donations for new computer equipment and some donations to an animal shelter. I think he raised several thousand dollars. He was in on the $$$ game. Though I was a long time TB2000 contributor, I never sent him or anyone else a dime for anything pertaining to Y2K. However, I do agree with this statement above:Banned Person, I completely disagree with you. Lusenet forums such as this one are operated by Phil Greenspun, with his own money. Further more, Phil implicitely gives the right to anyone to start a forum on his system, and to censore it, manage it, and moderate it as they see fit. Phil himself has ultimate control over all the forums on Lusenet. The beauty of it all is that when people don't agree with a forum owner and what's going on in it, they can start their own to voice their opinions. This very forum (Spinoff) that was started after Yourdon moved to another more controled forum. It could, and should, have been started long before then by anyone.
-- ~~~~~~ (~~~~~@~~~~.xcom), September 20, 2000.
When Phil "took TB2000" down, he asked for donations for new computer equipment and some donations to an animal shelter.Actually, the donations were only for the animal shelter, not the new equipment. You can read his take on the situation, as well as his description of the rather tenuous connection between LUSENET and MIT in this letter he wrote to a forum member who complained about Phil's request for donations.
-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), September 20, 2000.
For a full clarification:Please explain recent ups and downs of this forum
greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002MOo
I did not kick anyone off! The server was overwhelmed by forumites who were using desktop robots in an attempt to copy all 300,000 old messages to their local hard drives (I guess on the theory that this Unix server would die on January 1, though in fact its ancient bones and my software appear to have been unaffected). So it was forum users who effectively closed the forum.
I spent several days with a colleague adding servers, upgrading software to newer more efficient versions, and creating a static forum archive available for download on another computer (try http://homepage.lcs.mit.edu:8123/ -- this way the archivists won't compete for scarce computer resources with interactive users.
I was a little bit annoyed that I had to spend my New Year's doing all of this system administration because, frankly, the Y2K forum has been a thorn in my side for 1.5+ years. When a forum user doesn't like the moderation policy, he complains to me! When I tell him that I don't moderate the many thousands of forums at greenspun.com, he complains to senior MIT officialdom (this has happened every month or two for the past 18 months). Of course, none of these MIT officials have any idea what greenspun.com or the TB2000 forum is. You can imagine...
To see whether or not it was worth my continuing to invest so much time in this forum, I experimented to see if the users cared enough to donate some money to a no-kill animal shelter (see www.sarasanctuary.org and http://db.photo.net/shoppe/). A bunch of people did (nearly $5000 raised) so I decided "Yes, I'll spend the next few days really working on this software."
Next step: I'm going to spend about $20,000 of cash and admin time to set up a dual-P800 Intel server (probably 6X the computing power of the current server (a 5-year-old quad-CPU 167 MHz Solaris machine)). I'm going to have one of my students rewrite the software to accomodate a forum where people use fake email addresses. We're hoping to have all of this set up in stages starting in February. So Y2K discussion will be much faster and better-supported soon.
Keep in mind through all of this that we have never thought Y2K was an interesting topic! If you check http://greenspun.com/bboard/ you'll see discussions about Edgar Allen Poe or photography. We can support hundreds of these forums for the same admin and computer cost as TB2000 (since their users aren't as active, don't use fake email addresses, and don't all try to pull 300,000 messages down to their desktops within a few hours).
Bottom line is that by donating money to SARA you've saved a lot of dogs' and cats' lives and also motivated a small group of computer nerds here to provide continued financial support and effort to make the Y2K forums possible.
-- Philip Greenspun (philg@mit.edu), January 01, 2000.
Oh yes, to clarify the question above: nobody sent money to me personally! All the money was a tax-deductible contribution to a 501(c)(3) non-profit animal shelter in Seguin, Texas. I have no connection with them except that I've donated a minivan and some stock photography earnings (derived from http://photo.net/photo/ ) to them.
Money for the new server will come from my pocket (or maybe I can browbeat the valinux.com or penguincomputing.com folks into giving me one since we're MIT! The server on which the forum is current running was donated by Sun Microsystems in 1995, by the way). I'm waiting for the dual P-800s to become available (Intel has announced them but apparently not shipped any). Then we need 2 GB of RAM and five 50 GB hard drives (we will mirror these X2 and then have a hot spare; total of two mirrored disks (not very good for Oracle performance -- one really wants to have 17 mirrored drives -- but easy and simple to maintain)).
-- Philip Greenspun (philg@mit.edu), January 01, 2000.
-- ~~~~~~~ (~~~~@~~~~.xcom), September 20, 2000.
Yep, clear as mud: "...since we're MIT...".
So, where does it say the fora hosted by Greenspun is NOT connected to MIT in any way?
I guess it depends on one's definition of "is" (or in this case, "are").
-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), September 20, 2000.
Clues I gathered from Phil's post above:1) Phil is a teacher at MIT
2) Phil has a colleague that helps him maintain his server and software, as well as some students.
3) Phil spends his own money, not MIT's, to maintain the server and software (as well as donations and I suspect some money pitched in from colleagues and students as well.)
My conclusions:
1) Phil refered to himself and colleague as "since we're MIT" because they are employed by MIT and that in his mind gives some clout to his fund raising endeavors.
2) MIT lets Phil run his own private hobby of maintaining the Lusenet forum/server on their grounds because Phil is a teacher there, but MIT does not have any interest in Phil's hobby. MIT donates the space to Phil to house his system, but that does not mean that MIT endorses censorship by doing so.
3) Those who wrote to MIT officials did not do their homework properly and were dismissed as zealots by MIT officials and Phil.
-- (smarty@wannabe.com), September 20, 2000.
Actually, smarty (and I don't mean that the way it sounded [g]), it has been established that P.G. runs the LUSENET fora through MIT's bandwidth; not out of his own pocket.
And that is NOT cheap.
The only thing I have a problem with is the banning/censoring/editing/whims of a few select individuals who decide what is "obnoxious". On the original TB2K (as it appears to be on EZB), it seemed to me that the problem was a few people who let their Delete Key Power go to their heads ("I'm SOMEBODY!!"). You would have thought they were protecting the Word of God from blasphemy, the way they acted at times. Several posters disagreed with this (a couple were rather vehement in their disagreement), and were thus banned. Kind of like EZB.
Well, except some of us were banned from EZB without ever having posted at either EZB **OR** TB2K I.
To coin a phrase: "I rule!"
;-)
-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), September 20, 2000.
Smartie,What do you make of this?
The bottom line is that it is tough and expensive to run a reliable RDBMS-backed Web server. So we're doing that here for all of you. Given the way that I've written the code, it really isn't any more expensive for this machine to serve hundreds of Web publishers and their many thousands of users than it would be to run a single db- backed Web site with 500 hits/day. source::Front page, first paragraph @ greenspun.com
The cost is the bandwidth, the movement of data over infrastructure, MIT's infrastructure. They have rules for said use of their ROADS, see links provided earlier.
This IS not the open internet, it is a closed intranet connected to the internet. The taxpayers are paying a significant portion of running MIT, thus the rules.
In addition the university uses space on the very servers Phil serves up Lusenet. The servers were donated by Sun Microsystems. This is no hobby, this is University sanctioned.
The folks who wrote the University requesting a divorce of greenspun.com and MIT, were met with indifference and told to get lost. From Phil himself to the University Dean the message was a well rehearshed no changes.
Why did we ask for the divorce? I personally was motivated by a little thread called New Y2K Game: Death Pools. A surreal thread started by the notorious huckster Greg Caton. Go read it, see how little concern is shown. How this talk is so much a foregone conclusion by the members of TB2000, the discussion weaves into talk of Ham Radio. Where is even one voice of outrage? Well there is one, from a Debunker.
One can take spam, posting of mp3s, porno and the like, but open high- fiving of what they believed were the impending deaths of millions of people? Sorry, this is way over any civilized line.
We did our homework. We countered the insanity daily for months. We asked for a University to enforce their own policies and ask Ed Yourdon to take his sewer private. The taxpayers should not have to pay for that crap. It is not Free Speech, it is trash and we have community standards.
for reference purposes...the thread from which our anonymous person found the supposed "real truth" above.
-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), September 21, 2000.
We countered the insanity daily for months.And what if you hadn't? What do you think would have happened?
There's a lot of insanity on the Internet you could spend the rest of your life trying to debunk. In some places the insanity is deliberate from the beginning, as a neo-Nazi site would be. There were some folks on the old TB2000 (a minority) whose views I thought were extreme, but that's the price society pays for freedom of speech.
I'd call trying to get the old TB2000 forum shut down a major case of censorship, since it would have denied me -- someone who tries very hard to be a moderate -- the opportunity to express my opinions to others and to read the opinions of others. Everyone saw a different TB2000 forum depending on what threads they chose to read. And besides, the general public and the business community never did use TB2000 as their source of information about y2k.
People knew for months last year, Doc Paulie, that you and Andy Ray were trying to get TB2000 shut down. You should have given more thought to the fact that by announcing your attempts to censor the whole forum, you were feeding the very "meme" you believed would somehow get out of hand if not quashed.
You should also have considered that if you knew last year y2k wasn't going to cause problems the public would notice -- either in 1999 or in 2000 -- then there also weren't going to be bank runs or other kinds of panic by the general public.
I guess what I'm wondering is why you thought debunking y2k was more important than debunking, say, neo-Nazis or UFO cults....
-- (?@?.?), September 21, 2000.
"Doc Paulie, that you and Andy Ray were trying to get TB2000 shut down."Yea, I know, I've kinda made up with Andy, so I should stay out of this, but I can't resist...
The above statement is true. I can't say for sure who was involved in the attempt to have the forum shut down, but I do recall Andy's name being mentioned several times. In fact, I think his name was removed from the "red list" only after he agreed to stop contacting MIT.
Is that what happened, Andy?
Pretty funny, that the one who yells loudest about censorship, was trying to censor EVERYONE on the forum...
<:)=
-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), September 21, 2000.
As far as I know, the only one who wanted the forum shut down was Mr. Polly (maybe LL, too; not sure). Anyone else who had publicly posted an opinion (including Doc and Andy Ray) simply wanted it moved off MIT real estate. Surely our resident Debunker Archivist, a.k.a., ".xcom", can find those posts, can't sh....er, s/he?
Re: debunking Y2K vs. debunking "neo-nazis" or "UFO cults", well, we were all discussing Y2K at the time, weren't we? Why even ask that question?
Re: "...then there also weren't going to be bank runs or other kinds of panic by the general public."
Which is factually correct except (at least some) people were removing their money from banks BEFORE the rollover. I see some of you are still quite adept at framing arguments.
Besides, "no one paid any attention to the Debunkers", or so at least one person has stated categorically. I guess you were the only ones, huh? :-)
I don't see what the argument is about here; LUSENET runs through MIT.....period. This is a known fact; not someone's opinion. The (really expensive) servers were donated by Sun, presumably under the guise of "educational donations" to MIT (I seriously doubt they were donated to "Phil Greenspun", Private Citizen), so again, where is the debate here?
As I stated above, the problem was due to the fact that the banning/censoring/editing of posts and posters was basically at the whim of a few people who let a little perceived "power" go to their heads. (Which is why I illustrated that by including the quote, "I'm SOMEBODY!")
Aside from one or two cases, it was simply because the posters held a different view and weren't exactly "diplomatic" (in the Delete Key Society's view) about stating as such.
I can't help but wonder how you all would have felt had you been on the "banned persons" list.
And while we're on the subject and as long as you're here, Sysman, I have had this question for you since last year (go figure [g]). There was a time when you came out (publicly on the forum) against the censoring/banning/editing. You were quite pointed in your disagreement with what was going on at the time. Then you disappeared for a bit, and when you returned, you were (please excuse the expression; no offense intended) one of "them" again. I seem to remember a similar situation with Chuck the Night Driver. So, uh.....what happened? (Understand it's just curiosity on my part; I always wondered about that. My email addy's real, if you prefer.)
-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), September 21, 2000.
?@??,You are right, 100% correct-u-mundo. People shouldn't waste one's time on dumbass things like Freedom and Liberty. Hell if one can't fight IT-ALL, why bother? Why vote? Why even bitch about being overcharged at the grocery store. Hell if one is not bitching about overcharging on a global scale, why bother?
So what if MIT has usage rules, so freaking what. If one can find advantages to exploit, one should milk it for all it is worth. If one operates a fringe discussion group needing the Stamp of Approval from a world leading University, Phil Greenspun has created your situation! MIT due to the fact they have sold out, will gladly allow anyone a place to spout even the deaths of between 22 and 80 Million of your fellow neighbors, and sanction it to boot! Whatta country!
Screw the rules! It is either or, a black and white world where scarcity is rampant and one must claw ones way to basically survive. Grab all you can, just don't get caught unless you have a major pile of money to get yourself out-of-it. The Creator was pretty stupid and made us have to screw each other to make it. Grab that car length, even if you have to risk your life and that of those around you, it is worth it dammit, who doesn't know this?
We must get all them damn computers compliant! This way in 99 years we will indeed have the JUSTICE we need to wipe the slate clean of all the aholes around trying to take our chit. Once we get them all talking in sync, them computers, they will implode like dominos and our wish will bear fruit.
Again ?@?.?, you are right man. You go anonymous whoever! What was I thinking? Sure if I am not out there spending ALL of my own money countering what in my lame mind is injustice, I am just a whiner. Correct again, all or nothing. Dam how you become so smart ?@?.? ?
-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), September 21, 2000.
Hell let me take this further.I for one think strip clubs should not only be allowed next to day cares and schools, I think they ought be IN the dam schools! Can one show a better career path for our young babes? Not allowing Lenny the Scumbag access to a school is downright "not right", it sucks.
Tim McVeigh? Hell why can't he blow-up Federal Buildings? Is this not his own little way of voicing his opinion? His mistake was not blowing up the whole freaking world, loser. Feds suck majorleague, but come-on Tim, do it right next time you bush-leaguer.
Why should the dam internet be left alone? I say we need the NBC's and ABC's of the world dictating what we can and cannot say and do like in real life, not this cyber crap.
I say it is ALL GOOD. Just do so without getting caught folks. Tim McViegh unfortunately pissed a few off. They were urked that their loved ones would never come home again and raised a stink about it.
Oh ya, them damn metal detectors at airports, screw them. I am paying a wad to ride the airline, why can't I pack a weapon? or a bomb? Is this not an invasion of my freedom?
Like Decker said, *uck all you people who want to dictate how I should live, *uck You! Who are you to tell me I can't rent to *iggers? or *hinks? That I have to pay taxes? We don't need rules or taxes, look at Ghana, does it look like they are dying like flies? *uck all you people and your rules, your civilized bs, *uck you.
Who are you to tell me it wrong to sleep with any dam one I want? So what if she is only in the 8th grade, so what? You people make me sick, youalls do it, so go *uck yourselves with it is wrong crap. If you don't all do it, what in the hell is your problem? you one of them homos or sumthin?
-- Joe Jerkweed (fannybubbles@usa.net), September 21, 2000.
Is it safe to uncover my eyes now? Is Jerkweed gone?Doc Paulie, you've shown me the light. Now I'm wondering how legal this Lusenet software is. It's got the password protection feature afterall. Have you written to MIT about that yet?
-- (smarty@wannabe.one), September 21, 2000.
Doc Paulie's reference to 'Freedom' and Liberty' reminds me of what Ken Decker calls The Reuben Delusion.The bottom line is, the four or five people in the 'red letter' club were eventually banned because of their continued efforts to disrupt the forum, not because of their views. There were many other people last year who expressed optimistic views about Y2k like Hoffmeister, FactFinder and Ken Decker who weren't banned.
-- (the@bottom.line), September 21, 2000.
Patricia,I absolutlely despise censorship, and yes, I did make a big stink here, and on the EZ forum, when Flint, Hoff and others were banned from the start. That hasn't changed. Even today, as much as I disagree with cpr, I would never want to see him silenced. On the old forum, I complained when LadyLogic was deleted, before she started to spam. I lobbied to have Y2K Pro removed from "the list", even though we were "enemies". I don't agree with spam either, and while Y2K Pro did do it at least once, I didn't think it was serious enough to justify his banning.
I did threaten to not be involved with EZ because of Flint and Hoff. But after thinking about it, I deceided that I still had many "friends" at EZ, and continuing my friendship with these people was more important than the banning issue. Flint and I were on opposite ends of the scale, but I've always considered him to be a friend. If I ever want to talk to that old friend, I can do it here.
Does this answer your question? <:)=
-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), September 21, 2000.
Thanks, Sysman. Like I said, it was just curiosity on my part, so I appreciate the response. And again, there was no offense intended; it was just something I had wanted to ask you for awhile. Have a good one.
-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), September 21, 2000.
Remember when Doc Paulie tried to get TB2000 off the MIT server?"Doc" Paulie tells about effort to remove TB2000 from MIT server
greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
My apologies if this has been posted elsewhere....
Status of my deal Friday, 02-Jul-1999 16:35:17
209.170.208.151 writes:
Ok, yes I am actively trying to have TB2000 taken off of MITNet. Actively in being 3 emails. One to Phil Greenspun, one to the Administrative listing from Internic/NS(which was forwarded to MIT's Stopit folks), and one to a reporter who will remain anonymous at this point.
Due to the timing-summer&July4-I expect a slow response. In fact, I expect no action frankly from the parties above. Feedback from Stopit will dictate my next move.
What complicates this issue is Philip Greenspun. His web operation (Arsdigita.com-photo.net) is intertwined with the resources of MIT to the core. He in fact is responsible for some(?) of the IT structure running at MIT and known as MITNet. Conflict of interest is the least of the issues. I see direct problems beyond even TB2000. However this is not my concern. I merely want that sewer off of MITNet. Even having Phil's email on TB2000 is not inkeeping with the intent of proper use of the MIT name. This is a silent "stamp of approval" from one of the most respected institutions on the planet. This alone is a direct violation and alone would be enough for the pulling of TB.
Here from MIT themselves:MIT FactsThe Massachusetts Institute of Technology is one of the world's preeminent research universities, dedicated to advancing knowledge and educating students in science, technology, and other areas of scholarship that will best serve the nation and the world in the 21st century. It is known for rigorous academic programs, cutting-edge research, a diverse campus community, and its longstanding commitment to working with the public and private sectors to bring new knowledge to bear on the world's great challenges.
William Barton Rogers, the Institute's founding President, believed that education should be both broad and useful, enabling students to participate in "the humane culture of the community" and to discover and apply knowledge for the benefit of society. His emphasis on "learning by doing", on combining liberal and professional education, and on the value of useful knowledge, continues to be at the heart of MIT's educational mission.
Most (70 percent) of the research conducted on the MIT campus is supported by the US government, but the Institute leads the nation in the amount of such funding received from private industry (nearly 20 percent).
In a nutshell,,,TB2000 is against the intent of MIT and even Philip Greenspun's whole reason for hosting it(his Community building software). The DEAD POLLS posting recently sealed the thing for me. The sheer lack of uproar even the fact it was a sales peice from Caton, deeply moved me. This posting and the resulting comments indicates better than anything else, the folks on there are mentally ill. They are about nothing much but wishing for the deaths of millions, if not billions of people so as to ease their misery which is their lives. They stand in direct opposition to everything MIT, Greenspun, and vast majority of humanity stands for. Phil doesn't GI, he is far too busy with other things to care much. MIT I am guessing is unaware of the crap running thru their servers and the way their masthead is OKing the crap like Death Polls and all the other assorted crapola known as TB2000 webforum.
more from MIT:use of MITNet1. Don't violate the intended use of MITnet.
The purpose of MITnet is to support research, education, and MIT administrative activities, by providing access to computing resources and the opportunity for collaborative work. All use of the MIT network must be consistent with this purpose. For example: Don't try to interfere with or alter the integrity of the system at large, by doing any of the following: permitting another individual to use your account impersonating other individuals in communication(particularly via forged email or Zephyrgrams) attempting to capture or crack passwords or encryption destroying or altering data or programs belonging to other users Don't try to restrict or deny access to the system by legitimate users. Don't use MITnet for private financial gain. For example, users are not permitted to run a private business on MITnet. (Commercial activity is permitted, but only for business done on behalf of MIT or its organizations. Cf. Section 13.2.3 of MIT's Policies and Procedures: "MIT's computing and telecommunications facilities and services are to be used for Institute purposes only and not for the benefit of private individuals or other organizations without authorization.") Don't transmit threatening or harassing materials. (Cf. Rule 5.)
Now the PROBLEM is Greenspun does not follow any of this. Clear reason why as I have hit on briefly. And I do mean briefly. How many at MIT would like to know Phil's arsdigita runs next to some of the largest Porno vendors on the web at above.net? Phil in fact is an investor in above.net Again, what he does is his business. I just want TB2000 off MITNet and severed from anything to do with MIT. And as I have noted in prior posts, Phil sells a book on HTML/AOL serverDBS etc which is doing exceedingly well. How does he sell it? Try over MITNet using the real way to sell things over the net, not banner ads(hint) as one avenue. Not to mention the fact arsdigita is a high-end consulting/hosting company of MIT grads whos' charges start in the low six figs. TB2000 is an advertisment of how to use Phil's software. Who is footing the bill for all of this? all of us.
This is a very complex issue involving many seperate areas. Most of it exists simply because most in any position to do anything are not hip to what is going on. Phils thing is not unusual I am sure, not even at MIT. But I think it time many of these types clean house. And again, I merely want TB off the dole. Whatever "arrangement" Phil has with MIT is their business. I just feel TB2000 is not in anyway doing anybody any good. And frankly as a taxpayer I do not want the thing funded even in a round about way. Enough our teleco taxes and fees allow such trash an avenue.
I have never been one to troll the swamp. I am not among that group. I do not even care if they move. I just want the thing off MIT. Maybe then the "mist" will lift and TB will be seen by more for what it is, a joke. Have not even hit at all on the fact TB2000 whole other intent is to sell Yourdon's 600 pages of NONSENSE book. These folks spit in your face and laugh all the way to the bank.
MIT:MIT Policies and Procedures/Use of Information Technology13.2.3 Responsible Use of MIT Computers, Networks, and Telephones.......
MIT's computers, networks, and telephones offer many opportunities to share information on campus and to access resources off campus. All members of the MIT community are obligated to use these facilities in accordance with applicable laws, with Institute standards of honesty and personal conduct, and in ways that are responsible, ethical, and professional. The use of MIT's telephones is restricted to Institute business and necessary personal telephone calls. Necessary personal telephone calls include calls to arrange family and personal schedules, medical-related calls, and other reasonable calls; these calls should be brief. No reimbursement to MIT is required for such calls. Telephone calls related to personal businesses and activities are prohibited unless a personal telephone credit card is used or an explicit agreement for reimbursement to MIT has been established with the appropriate organization. MIT's computing and networking facilities and services are to be used for Institute purposes only and not for the benefit of private individuals or other organizations without authorization. Unauthorized access to and use of MIT computer and network services violates this policy. Members of the Institute community should not take unauthorized actions to interfere with or alter the integrity of MIT computers, networks, telephones, or the information accessed through them. Efforts to restrict or deny access by legitimate users of the Institute's computers, networks, and telephones are unacceptable. Individuals should not use MIT facilities to interfere with or alter the integrity of any other computers, networks, telephones, or information, irrespective of their location. Destruction, alteration, or disclosure of data or programs belonging to others without authorization is inappropriate. Individuals should not connect unauthorized equipment to or tamper with MIT information technology facilities or equipment. Using any of the information technology resources of the Institute for unethical purposes, such as harassment, is unacceptable.
Doc Paulie
-- Bob (bob@bob.bob), July 02, 1999
Answers
Would some GI decipher this psychobabble?
Thanks.
-- Huh? (midwestmike_@hotmail.com), July 02, 1999.
I think his email addrsss says it all. fannybubbles? That's about all this effort is worth.
-- Max (_@_._), July 02, 1999.
I want all you doomers to take off those fruitcake magnets RIGHT NOW!! Where do all these idiots come from? Why can't they understand that this forum is for those who believe in y2k being something to prepare for. If it was a Muslum forum, would they, as good Christians, come into the forum and attempt to destroy it? Why don't they stay on their own forum where they share the same beliefs? Is it because its too boring for them....due to lack of any real content? These kinds of manipulative social pathics are really scarey. They are the same kind of people who "go postal". And if y2k isn't scarey enuff for us, along with Bin Laden, we will also have to contend with these idiots running around the streets.
Taz...who lives in the woods, and keeps a sharp eye out.
-- Taz (Tassie @aol.com), July 02, 1999.
Oops, I forgot to include the link.
-- Bob (bob@bob.bob), July 02, 1999.
Doctor poorly is obvisously a f%$#ing Nazi...
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 02, 1999.
Team,
Just talked directly with Phil Greenspun. Basically, he said don't worry about this.
Diane
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 02, 1999.
Doc must have alot of time on his hands eh?
I hope that his forum and the greenspun site are both operational after the rollover. Quite the resource.
-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 02, 1999.
Brian & Valkyrie, did you feel the earthquake? 5.7 is noticeable!
-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), July 02, 1999.
Mr Decker was decent enough to post a challange and here is his question to the Debunker Board. You just read the response Debunking Y2k webboard - Who is trying to destroy the Ed Yourdon forum?
-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 02, 1999.
Doc paulie how dare you sir. Do you have crap for brains or are you just plain evil. Tb2000 is a national treasure. Y2k will probably be the second most important event to empact our planet since WWII. Maybe you dont think y2k is a big deal, but I do. You have never work on our nations early warning systems but I have. Im praying real hard for our world leaders that they can figure out how to keep things peaceful through what will definitely be the cluster f of the century. The goal of mr greenspun and others like myself who visit this site on a regular basis is to help millions of people around the world to survive the coming apocalypse. No we dont wish it to happen you sickie, we have families and friends we love very much and care for who are stuck in a denial mode that will put their existance at risk. MIT will be honored by the survivors of the y2k as being an organization of great integrity and community service for helping millions to survive the y2k by not listening to fools such as you doc. By seeing to it that our insitutions of academia will not cave in to govt induced slander or pressure when the lives of millions of people are at stake. To Mit sysop dont you dare take tb2000 off your net. It will be an incredible time capsule of how we reacted to this tremedous threat for our future generations to learn from.
-- y2k aware mike (y2k aware mike @ conservation . com), July 02, 1999.
Actually, THIS is Decker's question that Doc Paulie responded to --
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb237006
... The real question... are you working, implicitly or explicitly, to "destroy" the Yourdon forum? Or is anyone else, for that matter? The primary references are one conversation involving "Cherri" and the recent comments by "Doc Paulie" with regard to public support of TB 2000.
I have not researched the DP issue, but perhaps someone can tell me... are public tax dollars supporting the Yourdon forum?
Regards,
Mr. Decker
OutingsR wonders why Decker would be interested in if public tax dollars support Timebomb 2000. Whatever, Decker's question has been answered: Yes, there IS an attempt to destroy this forum.
-- OutingsR (us@here.yar), July 02, 1999.
CPR went over the cliff first. Now Doc Paulie. Maybe Decker will go next week...
-- a (a@a.a), July 02, 1999.
Doc Paulie and the rest of those gutless wonders at Der Bonka are RUNNING SCARED!! What a bunch of Weasels.
Ray
-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 02, 1999.
Where are you friggin people? Take it off the MITNET? Why aren't you braindead, grant recieving, endowment sucking, big government loving, idiots paying attention to what's happening here. A five year old could spot the bullshit being fed to the world on a daily basis by Clinton and Kospinem! Unfortunately, the American public is currently reading and thinking at a fourth grade level, max!
Losers!
Greenspun, the only person at MIT with a brain? Say it ain't so MIT students. Put some pressure on these goobers. It's your future that's at stake.
-- Wilfred Brimley (eatmygrapenuts@myshorts.com), July 02, 1999.
Based on the content of this thread's initiating rant, one would presume the author to be speaking for an "authority", higher than him/herself, predisposed to squelching open debate by calling the medium of disclosure into question.
Not a good sign.
-- Charles R. (chuck_roast@trans.net), July 02, 1999.
And what exactly is your point, Mr. Wilfred Brimley?
You make me more confused.
-- confused (it's@so.confusing), July 02, 1999.
In the military we use to have a saying that if you are catching flack you are getting close to the target. The target here is the truth. the truth about a very scary problem called y2k and the impact it will have on every one we know love and care for. If y2k doesnt scare the crap out of you,either you are ignorant or brain dead. This forum must be pissing off the big brass,in the, Govt and f100 corporations to come under such an organized assult on our Consititutional right of free speech.
-- y2k aware mike (y2k aware mike @ conservation .com), July 02, 1999.
I think Ray is onto something! All the trolls seem to have gone into some kind of self-destruct mode. Decker is frothing so much EVEN HE can't seem to even get his story straight (of course when you are saying two completely different things on two completely different forums, I can see why). Paul Davis seems to have resigned himself to just play with his telescope, but apparently is not getting any satisfaction from it. Gosh, these were the most eloquent and polished of our trolls, and they are now reduced to whining, begging and crying for "upper management" to remove our forum via this sicko "Doc" Paulie.
What does not distroy us makes us stronger. And I believe that the Yourdon forum will not only stomp these trolls, but will actually emerge to be the best Y2K prep caring and sharing forum than it would ever have been otherwise!
-- King of Spain (marid@aol.com), July 02, 1999.
Here's a good one, compiled from today's debunkery compost:
CPR writes:
We have beaten North and Yourdon at their own propaganda game: WITH INFORMATION.
What kind of information you ask?
Stephen Pool writes:
I Have Figured Out The Problem
The problem is that Y2K has no knock-knock jokes.
-- a (a@a.a), July 02, 1999.
Well folks, there it is for all to see. NAZISM plain and simple. I disagree with those "idiots" at TB2K, so I must SILENCE them. I cannot burn their books, so I will shut them down.
What's next Doc? Burning at the stake? Extraction of confessions via the Iron Maiden? Red hot pokers, and finger nail pulling? Is that not the proper response to heathens and un-believers?
You indulge in a behavior that is worse than that which you claim to detest. Are your ideas so lacking in persuasiveness that you feel your position is lost? Is your position so tenuous that a free exchange of thoughts and ideas is a threat to it?
You are a disgrace. An utterly contemptible waste who must resort to censure to have his ideas prevail. You make me ill.
-- Unc D (unkeed@yahoo.com), July 03, 1999.
To "Doc" Paulie,
Sir/Madam,
In reference to the posting above, you seem to be operating under certain misunderstantings as to the purpose of the Government granting process of 6.1 Basic Research funding lines to various Research Institutions (including MIT) regarding Y2K information dissemination/ discussion. If you are interested in a continued (productive only, please) dialog regarding these issues and their validity, feel free to contact me at the email address below.
V/R,
Spindoc'
-- Spindoc' (spindoc_99_2000@yahoo.com), July 03, 1999.
Interesting stuff. Though it's probably just for show, Paulie's efforts are catching some flack at Debunkey's. cpr has discovered Thomas Jefferson. Hasn't figured out the Bill of Rights in today's context yet but it's kinda fun to watch.
-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), July 03, 1999.
You scooped me there, Unc -- just as the thought came to mind, you appeared on the 'refresh':
Historians have wondered, recently, just how many Germans actually killed, and actively participated in the killing of, Jews. 500,000 was one figure. How did formerly decent, middle-class, educated, some professionally-trained, white Europeans turn in a few short years into killers of people very much like themselves whom they had little individual hatred for?
How did Serbian men turn into mass rapers of young Kosovar women, before killing them and stuffing their bodies down wells?
Bullies.
Small-scale losers looking for a jump in status.
Sensing vulnerability. Seeing a minority group unprotected by the larger society. Seeing potential scapegoats.
Krystallnacht.
Ku Klux Klan
Sand Creek and Wounded Knee
"C'mon gang! Let's get 'em!"
The ringleader boy who tortures cats -- and finally Kris Kristofferson -- in the film "The Sailor Who Fell From Grace With the Sea."
Lord of the Flies.
Pol Pot.
Nothing like a bully on a mission. A strutting little Heydrich who smells a promotion and a pat on the back from Der Fuhrer.
The small miracle of our forum is how many potential SCHINDLERs we've drawn here at one time or another. Not starting out intending to be heroes or humanitarians, but keeping an intelligent eye open to the ways of survival for self, family, neighbors....
We may _mention_ the possible loss of millions of lives; it doesn't mean we advocate it or work toward it. Our horror at such an outcome is clear, even if we at times show a fascination for looking ahead into the face of chaos.
The bullies are the ones, throughout history, who have organized the great slaughters. Let's learn from their presence to better recognize and appreciate the compassionate faces among us.
-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.uni), July 03, 1999.
I think the ole "Doc" is suffering from delusions.
Besides, this forum offers TPTB too much of an opportunity to study, gage and even test the public - especially the GI public.
Naw, this is a great way to have a kind of a "think-tank" comprised of average citizens without paying the high salaries. Supporting an MIT server is a small price to pay.
Mike ================================================================
-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), July 03, 1999.
fORGivE DieTrE HiS IgnoRAncE, biTTe??????? wAS NoT JOseF mENgELE A dOc tOO??????
-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), July 03, 1999.
Thank you, Dieter, for the reality check, as always. Keep keepin' us honest!
Spindoc'
-- Spindoc' (spindoc_99_2000@yahoo.com), July 03, 1999.
Relax Doc or Reduviid Dick or something (Look it up stupid)
Haven't you figured it out yet? We *are* a research project for MIT!!!
Bwahahahahahah
-- Michael (mikeymac@uswest.net), July 03, 1999.
"Relax Doc or Reduviid Dick or something (Look it up stupid) Haven't you figured it out yet? We *are* a research project for MIT!!!
Bwahahahahahah
-- Michael (mikeymac@uswest.net), July 03, 1999."
Sorry, Michael,
Too many "Doc's" around here; which one are you referring to?
A funder of said research projects,
Spindoc'
-- Spindoc' (spindoc_99_2000@yahoo.com), July 03, 1999.
"Doc" Paulie,
My email is real. I welcome an exchange of dialog. I await your reply.
V/R,
Spindoc'
-- Spindoc' (spindoc_99_2000@yahoo.com), July 03, 1999.
Somebody needs to 'frisbee' a trash can lid at THIS guy and nail him in the adam's apple. He's crazier than that gander of mine. Perhaps he's protecting HIS eggs as well. Scrambled or sunny side up?
-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 03, 1999.
Here ya go "Doc"...you twisted, delusional Nazi.
The following are the top 10 forums as listed on the following link:
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/sort-by-n-messages.tcl
* TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000); 142584 messages, latest on July 03, 1999 * The Government of the United States; 8681 messages, latest on July 02, 1999
* TitanicShack; 7626 messages, latest on July 03, 1999
* Electric Utilities and Y2K; 5301 messages, latest on July 03, 1999
* Large format photography; 5167 messages, latest on July 02, 1999
* Nature Photography Image Critique; 4395 messages, latest on July 02, 1999
* Monster Rancher; 3629 messages, latest on July 02, 1999
* Imaging Resource Discussion; 3474 messages, latest on July 03, 1999 * Philosophy of Photography; 3372 messages, latest on July 03, 1999
* Catholic; 2676 messages, latest on July 03, 1999
Why don't you put on that special Batman costume your mommy keeps clean for you and venture out into Gotham City for some serious play time. Oh, and the cookies and milk will be on the table when you're done
-- YOU HAVE NO POWER (NOW AND @FTER Y2k.com), July 03, 1999.
When you have a WILD ANIMAL cornered, the only thing left for it to do is lash out at you. Expect much more of this from the polly's as we get closer to the roll over. This is a great example, as to why we need GUNS!!!
-- FLAME AWAY (BLehman202@aol.com), July 03, 1999.
King of Spain, Declaimer of the Great Truths, Protector of the Mud Pit, Your Majesty:
To be fair, Dickering Decker didn't demand deletion of dis forum, neither did Sayn't Paul. What would they do without this nose to explore for boogers, displaying them, real or imagined, on the tips of their index fingers for all to see?
Cpr may have gone on record as being against complaining about the forum to MIT, but we are still wondering if he retains those files he said he was collecting on Yourdon participants, and if he intends to turn them over to the FBI (as hinted).
-- OutingsR (us@here.yar), July 03, 1999.
Outings
Of course you are right. Could you imagine if this site was not here? The would have to talk amoung themselves.
ROTFLMAO!!!! TO FUNNY!!!
couldn't imagine it (tears rolling down face)
-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 03, 1999.
jor-el, you've hit it on the head. Bullies have always been with us, and :::::sigh:::::probably always will be. I've been fortunate enough to actually see 'Universal Law' in action, however, and it *is* comforting.
Will Continue, I think his eggs are pickled.
-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), July 03, 1999.
To: Doc Paulie
If MIT founder William Barton Rogers explicitely wanted to enable students to participate in " The Humane Culture of the Community", then TB2000 is EXACTLY the kind of educational opportunity he would have approved of.
It is elitist, leftwing, closeminded, so-called scientists like yourself who are causing the downfall of higher education in this country!
-- (Minuteman@Concord.com), July 03, 1999.
Brian & OutingsR,
It's pretty funny thinking that were his "raison d'etre."
LOL. What would he complain about then? Might have to look in a mirror closely.
If you read the cpr FBI file comments... well... there's another one who needs a close self-examination. Starts here... and devolves...
FBI monitoring Y2k EXTREMISTS and LISTS (cpr) (17-May-1999 12:41:43)
http:// www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb237006&MyNum= 926959303&P=No&TL=926959303
Why he ASSUMES a good many of us are somehow un-American is beyond me. Or that if we heard about some terrorist activites that we wouldn't report that. Heck, as a witness to an armed robbery, once I helped testify and send the idiot to prison.
Cpr sees all those who discuss Y2K issues as subversives that he personally must "track."
A real wierd one too. He and Doc are quite a strange pair, IMHO.
Diane
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 03, 1999.
tinfoil, I need more tinfoil.....so muchhhh confussssssion...burp!
What the hell is going on here? Would someone explain the meaning of this thread. I'm clueless.........
-- Mike (midwestmike_@hotmail.com), July 03, 1999.
Mike,
There is a um, radical person at the De Bunker site, who disagrees with open discussions on Y2K issues, and he is trying to get MIT and Phil Greenspun to CENSOR the TimeBomb 2000 Forum by either closing it down, or getting it moved off the MIT computers.
It won't happen. Already talked to Phil Greenspun about it.
Diane
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 03, 1999.
[Sayn't Paul, this is a polly-troll post so just skip over it like you tell everyone else to do, OK?]
Look, a big juicy booger, just mined at the world's biggest booger mine (in response to Dreck's question about who's trying to destroy this forum) --
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb237006&MyNum=9 31003085&P=Yes&TL=930916227
It beats me - trolls and the current sysops would be my guess Saturday, 03-Jul-1999 07:58:05, 12.67.16.58 writes:
That stuff got started back in January, pretty low key then. Some of us who had not expected much trouble from the Jo Ann effect pointed out that trouble did not materialize on schedule. Also, the Euro did not collapse the economy of Europe, as GN and company were ferve
-- ~~~~~~~ (~~~~~@~~~~.xcom), September 22, 2000.
http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0012Bg
-- Where you (can@find.it), September 22, 2000.
Thanks for the link, I forgot to get it in there!
-- ~~~~~~ (~~~~@~~~~.xcom), September 22, 2000.